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Perk
03-26-2007, 06:22 PM
I just joined this Forum & this is my first post. Last Thursday an apprentice got into 7,200 while hanging a pot on a #6 main-line pole. We started our apprenticeship together just over one year ago. Friday he had surgery to remove his left hand 4" above the wrist, today he had additional surgery to remove about 1" above that. It looks as though he'll be able to keep his right hand w/ tendons removed that will affect the use of his pinky & ring fingers.

Apparently, he had made the pot hot, came down & got the volt meter and went back up to check voltage. He noticed the service neutral tail was too long and went to cut it w/ bolt cutters, leaning in between the pole & the stinger, getting the bolt cutters into the stinger.

There were alot of factors that played into the accident that shouldn't have happened.

- The crew had only 3 men at the time, they are usually 4-6.
- He was in the bucket by himself.
- He did not have his rubber gloves on.

Anyway, i would just ask that you keep him in your thoughts & prayers. He is currently in the Burn Unit ICU @ Erlanger in Chattanooga. He is only 22 years old & engaged to be married Sept. 1.

electric squirrel
03-26-2007, 07:30 PM
I'am sorry that this happened and wish the young man all the best,,, but everyone is going to ask how and why,if you guys have been in the trade only a year you have no bussiness workin on anything hot alone! Where was the JL , the foreman??? How come he was doing "hot " work with a short handed crew?
You are right, there are lots of factors that contributed to this horrible accident!!!! Best whishes to him and his family.........E.S.

Bull Dog
03-26-2007, 07:59 PM
I hope the man will be ok soon im sorry to hear. This is the kind of thing that makes me see red........Someone should pay big time is this ibew or non union who decided he should be up there. When I read this it makes me ashamed. Never ever should this happen. Ive said it on here before some one Preferably the CEO should spend a lot of time in the slammer. Perk thanks for posting I hope some of you young guys read this and tell whoever tells you to do this to go to hell. Perk What company is this if you could share pls?

Perk
03-26-2007, 08:37 PM
The crew was initially 4 members - Foreman, Lineman, WTO, Apprentice. The job was to hang a pot, not sure what size, on existing main-line, single phase,#6, 45 ft pole. While there were still 4 crew members the Lineman & Apprentice put the stirup on & I think pulled up & wedged the service (tri-plex). The wench truck could not reach to set the pot so the Apprentice asked if he could set it w/ the jib, he had apparently been asking to do this for a while.

The Lineman got out of the bucket & let him proceed w/ hanging the pot, which he did w/o problems, squeezed it up, & made it hot. He then came down for the volt meter. It was somewhere around this time that the Foreman left for the day (family issue) leaving only 2 people on the ground & the Lineman as the Acting Foreman. After he went back up he noticed the service neutral was a bit long and he went in to cut the tail, coming into contact w/ the stinger just about an inch above the top of the squirrel guard.

Actually, I'm not sure if the Lineman was w/ him when he hung the pot , made it up, & made it hot, but I think he was not, but he for sure was not when he went back up to check voltage.

But it is my understanding, we are not to be on a "hot' pole w/o a lineman, either in bucket or hooks, but sometimes there are exceptions made for being on one but not in the "primary" zone - between neutral & phases, but that in reality is conflicting since we don't really do any wotk outside of what would be considered the "primary" zone. I mean, the bucket may be below this zone, but hands, arms, shoulders, head, etc. are always in this zone.

I'd rather not say what utility it is, but we are in East Tn. & members of I.B.E.W. local 760.

scammy
03-26-2007, 08:37 PM
first of all I wish him well ,,,,,,,,,I dont know if this is the right venue but here it is ,,,,,,,we have apes ,,for about 1 and a 1/2 years they touch nothing energised ,,,at the end of this time they can work hot secondary ,,after they are second class linemanfor 2 yrs they can work single phase hot .with a qualified lineman ,with them,in the air,then you become bottom first class,you can work 3 phase ,with a qualified lineman with you ,,,in the air then you become top first ,and you can work 3 phase with a qualified lineman in the air with you ,,,,,and run trouble ,,then you can take your 4 test and be leader linman ,,,,,,,,about a 7 to 10 year deal,,,,I am sorry about the young apprentice and mad at the same time ..scammy

Bull Dog
03-26-2007, 09:52 PM
I just hope he is set for life from this. How many years did the journey man have that let him hang this pot alone. The problem is the young guys always want to do it. Most of us would have stayed on the pole with him even if the hooks had to come out. Im sickened buy this no one can tell me this was an accident something is wrong. I went on the 760 web site I didnt see a thing about safety not one mention of it. I cant tell you how many times a app asked me to do things and No was the answer. This is the reason but sure they thought Hes a jerk wont let me do this or that. Some day those that were told no your not ready to do that let me do it will understand why. It sickens me to think a young man is done but he has his life at least. Some companys need to rethink there safety program. I hope this will get them to rethink there safety program and not try to sweep this under the rug. Honnestly I dont see how they will be able to! Sorry for your friend again this isnt just one of those things that happen totally preventable. This is one for the lawyers to fight over mabey Rusty could look into the facts of this before everything is covered up.

electric squirrel
03-26-2007, 10:06 PM
This is a BAD deal!!!!!Bulldog is right someone up the ladder should have a real ass kickin'!!!! They do this kind of shit and if they get away with it good,it makes the company money,having an ape do JL work and paying a fraction of the wage...There are LOTS of good apes out there ( I hope my crew thinks Iam one)but just cuz you have a handle on things DONT make you capable of doing it by yourself,especialy anywhere near the primary !!!


REMEMBER JUST CUZ YOUR A HIGHER STEP APE OR A BRAND NEW,FIRSTDAY TOPPED OUT JOURNEYMAN,YOU AINT BULLETPROOF AND THE APE PROGRAM HAS TAUGHT YOU JUST THE BASICS OF LINEWORK AND JUST ENOUGH TO STAY ALIVE!!! IF YOU THINK YOU KNOW IT ALL ,YOU NEED SOME MORE TIME AS AN APE!!!!!:mad: E.S.

tramp67
03-26-2007, 11:49 PM
Perk, welcome aboard. My thoughts go out to your friend and his family, he's got a long, tough road ahead. Please keep us informed as to how he is doing.

There's a lot you can learn on this site, unfortunately way too many times it is after someone has had an accident. I've been in this field for quite some time, and am continually learning new things. There is a tremendous amount of knowledge here with all the brothers on this site, hopefully we all keep learning and stay safer because of what we learn here. You sound like you know where your limitations are, that's good. Don't ever let your guard down, that's when things will get you.

PA BEN
03-27-2007, 08:51 AM
After he went back up he noticed the service neutral was a bit long and he went in to cut the tail, coming into contact w/ the stinger just about an inch above the top of the squirrel guard.

Terminology? Stinger is the tap from cutout to transformer? Was the tail so long it flipped up into the stinger or was the service deadened above the transformer?
If you can tell the Apprentice that we are praying for him.

topgroove
03-27-2007, 11:32 AM
Thanks for posting this accident Perk, and welcome to the forums. My thoughts and prayers go out to your friend and his family. Why an apprentice would be working near energized primary in his leather gloves is beyond me. I can't even imagine it. The scary part is we read about contacts like this all the time and it continues to happen. This young mans life changed forever in a split second and now has the rest of his life to remember it. As an industry we all need to get a hell of a lot better and prevent these senceless tradgedys.

Orgnizdlbr
03-27-2007, 06:10 PM
Jeez, I hate to hear this shit......

scammy
03-27-2007, 06:27 PM
yes I hate to hear it too ,perhaps its time to have a linemans meeting with congress,,we will need a organiser ,,,time to cut the red tape and bullshit,,,. too many men gone,,,time to do something ,time to step upto the plate,,we need you smart guys now ,,,scammy

Perk
03-27-2007, 08:43 PM
Terminology? Stinger is the tap from cutout to transformer? Was the tail so long it flipped up into the stinger or was the service deadened above the transformer?
If you can tell the Apprentice that we are praying for him.

The stinger in this case is connected w/ a hot-line clamp to the stirup on the primary, we do not use cutouts on pots. When me & the apprentice who got burned went to our Construction Lab this past Dec., we had to hang & take down a pot w/ cutout & arrester out of our hooks. We had never seen a pot fed by a cutout.

As far as the neutral, not sure if it was busted on the mainline neutral or the 1/0 copper which was busted on the mainline neutral. The tail was not actually a problem, he was just trying to neaten up his work, because he had previously cut his hot-legs too short & had to bend the 1/0 on the low-sides toward the service to make them reach. It had been pointed out to him at that time he needed to be neater w/ his work. And from what I've "heard", when he went to cut this excess tail, he bent it upward (a cardinal sin) and was on the side closest to the highside reaching over the top of the pot to cut the neutral tail. The handle of the cutters got into the stinger while his left hand was grounded on something, the pot, pole, neutral, nobody really knows. He was apparently in this awkward position because the jib would have been in his way if he had been on the lowside lug side, where he needed to be. But he had previously squeezed the service onto the lowsides, so I don't really understand that. The truck was only set up once.

He was supposed to be moved to a room today, but as of quitting time for us, he had not yet been. We're all looking forward to visiting him. His stand-by comes up on Good Friday. A bunch of us are working it for him w/ the pay going to him. Hopefully we'll have lots of trouble, but nothing too major.

WAlinehand1970
03-27-2007, 09:08 PM
Perk, sorry to hear about your buddy. I hope for the best for him and his family.
Everything we do in linework has a sequence of events, it doesnt matter if you are pulling up secondaries, or cutting in a double dead-end, hot. When you get out of sequence, at the very least, you cause more work for yourself. When doing hot work, and you get out of sequence, people get hurt.
The same thing goes for the apprenticeship. All apes want to do the work, but there is a sequence of events, that must be followed, in order to protect the apprentice from his eagerness. The lineman on the crew is responsible for this accident, not the company, or the IBEW. He is the one who let the apprentice go into the primary zone by himself.

Bull Dog
03-27-2007, 10:01 PM
Im sorry but your wrong. When a accident like this happens there are more at fault besides the lineman that let him go up. Thats all ill say now so others can tell you.

WAlinehand1970
03-27-2007, 10:16 PM
Im sorry but your wrong. When a accident like this happens there are more at fault besides the lineman that let him go up. Thats all ill say now so others can tell you.

Sure, the company left them short-handed. And they want you to do the work anyway.
The lineman should not have allowed the APE to go into the primary zone by himself. period.

wudwoker51
03-27-2007, 10:47 PM
Perk, 99.9% of all accidents are avoidable as was this one and hopefully this young man will recover and lead a long and fulfilling life for many years to come. Linework is based on the buddy system ( two heads are always better than one) and no one should enter the primary zone by themselves but many do often with tragic results. All I can say is learn from it so maybe something good will come out of this tragedy down the road.

tramp67
03-28-2007, 12:20 AM
Perk, sorry to hear about your buddy. I hope for the best for him and his family.
Everything we do in linework has a sequence of events, it doesnt matter if you are pulling up secondaries, or cutting in a double dead-end, hot. When you get out of sequence, at the very least, you cause more work for yourself. When doing hot work, and you get out of sequence, people get hurt.
The same thing goes for the apprenticeship. All apes want to do the work, but there is a sequence of events, that must be followed, in order to protect the apprentice from his eagerness. The lineman on the crew is responsible for this accident, not the company, or the IBEW. He is the one who let the apprentice go into the primary zone by himself.

I would have to agree with WAlinehand1970. From what you said, Perk, it sounds as though your utility has safety rules in place and does their best to provide you with a safe work environment. There's only so much a company can do, the people in the field need to assume their share of the responsibility to work safe.

42linehand
03-28-2007, 05:45 AM
Not to take away from the man being burnt but I must say that if he had his rubber gloves on this would have never happened. As far as him being allowed in the primary by himself his lineman must have felt confident in him as well as he must have felt comfortable working in the air or he would not have been up their. Within my Local Apprentices are allowed to work in the primary by themselves as long as the lineman and apprentice agree that he is ready. But one thing is for sure we wear Gloves and Sleeves. To me this is another incident that could have been prevented by him wearing gloves and sleeves. Lets not put the blame on everyone else which usually happens here.

hantzr
03-28-2007, 07:38 AM
Sorry to hear about your friend, I hope I never have to go through what you and your company are going through right now. That said, I'm not sure what your rules are, maybe some states are different than others, but here in Ontario (Canada) we have a ground to ground - Lock to Lock rule. which if you haven't heard it before means baiscally what it says; you wear your rubber gloves (we dont have sleeves here) from the time you go up in the air until the time you come down and on the underground from the time you take the lock off the pad or switch gear etc until the time it goes back on. Obvioulsy only if the poles are live and the underground devices are live. If grounds are on then leather gloves are good. Does the states have this rule? Some people here don't always follow it, but don't let a forman see you without the gloves on. Oh we have 3 classes of gloves as well 0's, 2's and 4's with voltages of 120/240 120/208 347/600 16/27.7KV and some 4kv.
Again sorry to hear about your friend.

thrasher
03-28-2007, 08:15 AM
Hantzr
In the states Ground to Ground or Lock to Lock is a Company rule not an OSHA rule. Some companies have this rule others don't. I started in the business in the 70's and everywhere I have worked has had the ground to ground rule. However the Lock to Lock rule is more recent (about 10 years). The Lock to Lock rule was started after an underground fatality at another Coop in our region that I have previously talked about. Many companies do not have this rule in the states.

topgroove
03-28-2007, 11:37 AM
what is your rubber glove rule at your utility?

hantzr
03-28-2007, 06:08 PM
Thanks Thrasher I was curious about that... hell maybe it is a company rule here too but I think it is a U&ESA rule I would have to look it up.

Perk
03-29-2007, 07:58 PM
what is your rubber glove rule at your utility?

I'm not sure what the written policy is, but my old foreman always told me to have mine on anytime I work above the neutral. But like today, for example, we were pulling in 3-phase 556, 9 spans, to replace existing single phase #6. Everything was blanketed & gutted well, but we always wear rubber gloves, even when catching off the neutral. I learned the hard way last summer when I took my right rubber glove off to start a nut, or getting a cotter pin in ,or something, & got bit by high-line static. My arm ached all the way up to my shoulder just from that.

There are lots of things that can go wrong while pulling in wire. Where we were today it is an old country road that we had to completely shut down because it is so narrow, the #6 had a million sleeves in it, leaning poles, & tree-trimmers working all around us. Pulling in new wire along-side existing enrgized wire is more nerve racking than tying-in hot, IMO. Well, yesterday I did a "flying tap" w/ one of my Linemen, from #6 to a three-phase riser . All hot, that was pretty edgy for me.

Anyway, I'm not sure what our rubber glove policy is. I've worked secondary w/o them, but that's it. I've pretty much learned when we're expected too wear them & always wear them when setting poles anywhere near energized lines, the primary zone, putting on/ taking off elbows, and especially pulling in new wire.

We about had a serious hand-injury on this job today. Our WTO was operating the brake on the wire tensioner & got his three middle fingers on his left hand caught between the wire & the top reel. I was in the bucket w/ a lineman catching the wire off, sagging, cutting, etc. He was letting off the brake to give us some slack so we could cut the wire to the ground after we had it caught off. He was trying to keep the wire in the grooves of the real while releasing the brake w/ his right hand & lost track of where he was putting his fingers. Everybody on the ground was screaming at me to cut it but I couldn't hear them at first because of the wood chipper running right below us too. Luckily I already had the ratchet cutters in my hand & got it cut. Our foreman took him to the ER, they splinted it up for now.

The last report I heard was that the burned apprentice is doing well & even asked our safety guy if he could finish his apprenticeship because he really wants to be a Lineman. He was moved to a private room yesterday & gets to keep his right hand, but has limited use of the pinky & ring finger because of tendon damage. They also did a skin gragh from his left hip to his right arm. Many of us are going to try & get down there this weekend, but it has also been said that he'll be moved to Patricia Neal in Knoxville in a couple of weeks, which will bring him much closer to home.

Stinger
03-30-2007, 08:44 AM
What a tragety.I do hope he recovers and has a future. Sounds like he is young enough to do so. The rule of gloves and sleeves ground to ground was made for a reason. Shame on that lineman for not enforcing it. being a foreman, I have come from the old school, do a tailboard, talk the job through, make sure everyone understands their assigned task and have been assigned to the appropriate classification levels and while everyone is working be on the constant look-out for everyones safety in the air and on the ground. Safety is an individual and team effort during the job. God forbid, if something goes drastically wrong even though the job was was well planned, I am where the buck stops. I am the one that signed off on the plan and safety issues. There are times when you have to stand up and tell your boss that you do not have the right equipment or crew make up to do an assigned job. I would have a hard time looking at myself in the mirror or my brothers because i failed to my job!!

Bull Dog
03-30-2007, 06:47 PM
Ok stinger im glad you got a pair and are qualified to run a crew thats super! Now my question whos fault is it when the men either forman, Journeyman, crewleader ect are not worth a shit whos fault is it then when a man gets killed or burnt real bad like this young apprentice? I contend its Higher ups cause they put that man in charge and he wasent qualified and why did they do this stupid thing. Wether its not the right equipment for the job or the right man ill tell you here it is DOLLARS! Someone should hang for all this carnage But it goes on week after week month after month and nothing is happening. We need a change from top to bottom company and workers before it gets worse. Now the company will call out employee made a error its in the safety book then go on im sick of it. Dont get me wrong not all companys are slack on safety but im begining to wonder after reading about the stupid things that contribute to these accidents.

graybeard
03-30-2007, 09:50 PM
My prayers go out to this young man. This accident still brings up alot of questions. Why are apps getting hurt so much? Apps need the time to train, theres a reason the programs 4 YEARS long. I know that we are not the only ones having to work short handed but we shouldn't let apps work over the guide lines set out in their appretiship. This profesion doesn't leave room for many mistakes, which makes even more important every day that we really watch out for each other.

Stinger
03-31-2007, 08:39 AM
hey Bull, I could not agree with you more, I think you hit the nail on the head, what are going to do as brothers in the trade to stop this ongoing slaughter of our young? The above was just my view point about the way I feel about the responsibilty put on me. My personal opinion is we have a crisis on our hands created by greed. As Rusty puts it No more lives for dollars should be our goal theme in the trade. I am like you, i am almost afraid to turn onto the net here to read about another tragic preventable accident.About 4 years ago with CW Wright In Virginia there was a young lineman apprentice killed taking off grounds on a 115 line. Their biggest concern was who is the lowest expendable journeyman we can hold responsible for this accident insted of what supervisor is going to be held accountable Their biased investigation found fault with everyone except the supervisors who were on the job when this sensless tragic event happened. I know that any one man in this trade does not have all the answers, but I think collectivelly we could come up with pretty good solutions. I think on the union side one answer would be to take that foreman or Gf of the job where an accident happens, put him front of the examining board of very experienced lineman and hold court to determine exactly what went wrong and if this individual should hold a ticket ot not. I know most safety investigations are never discussed with the hands to talk about what went wrong. That within itself is wrong, how are we going to regroup if we do not know the facts and what we need to do to tighten up. Anyway, thats the way I feel. Like I have said before, I enjoy this net for its honesty and opinions which I have used on occassions to change the way i do things sometimes wheter it a post on tricks of trade, an issue in fourum or a safety issue. This net has been and will always be a valuable source of information. Be safe brother!!

PSE Lineman
03-31-2007, 01:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Somehow it got posted in the wrong topic. This is the right one...

First of all , I'm really sorry to hear about anyone getting hurt. Like everyone knows , it never should have happened. Here in Northwest Washington we have spacing at 8 feet one inch from primary to neutral with the BOTTOM xfmr one to 2 feet above the neutral. The neut is also where the triplex is deadended. The xfmr leads are cut 2 feet longer than the can. All secondary work is that far from the high side of the can. What , 4 to 5 feet? 15 kva is the shortest and 100's and 167's the tallest. We also have cutouts on EVERY xfmr out there. As I drive around the west coast , I see some neutrals on a bracket away from the pole about 2 feet below the primary and around the top of the can. As far as I can tell , this is not un common. But , is that why the ape got between the high side and the neut with bolt cutters?
Second , the glove issue. We wear our rubbers for 4KV. We have no glove laws that let us glove anything higher than 4KV. No one wants that here. We use sticks or kill it , period. We only use our gloves for safety when in our opinion we need to or see something that looks like it may get into it.
Third. I read about supervisors should be held accountable. Accountable for what? Are they out there with you telling you to do things that you wouldn't do otherwise? Around here the foreman is directly responsable for the entire crew. They have documented tailboards everyday every jobsite. When an accident happens , you can't just blame a supervisor. If you don't like where you work , just look at the job postings on this site and you can go where the grass is greener. That's just my opinion and thank you for letting me rant.

Bull Dog
03-31-2007, 04:22 PM
First of all I like were i worked, my supervisors were good, im tired of trying to explain this so i quit. One thing that might help is the worker comp laws that let the companys off the hook. Mabey if we got rid of them and made the company pay REAL MONEY for there accidents instead of a few dollars for insurance things would change in a hurry. Thanks stinger at least one guy understands.

US & CA Tramp
03-31-2007, 05:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Somehow it got posted in the wrong topic. This is the right one...

First of all , I'm really sorry to hear about anyone getting hurt. Like everyone knows , it never should have happened. Here in Northwest Washington we have spacing at 8 feet one inch from primary to neutral with the BOTTOM xfmr one to 2 feet above the neutral. The neut is also where the triplex is deadended. The xfmr leads are cut 2 feet longer than the can. All secondary work is that far from the high side of the can. What , 4 to 5 feet? 15 kva is the shortest and 100's and 167's the tallest. We also have cutouts on EVERY xfmr out there. As I drive around the west coast , I see some neutrals on a bracket away from the pole about 2 feet below the primary and around the top of the can. As far as I can tell , this is not un common. But , is that why the ape got between the high side and the neut with bolt cutters?
Second , the glove issue. We wear our rubbers for 4KV. We have no glove laws that let us glove anything higher than 4KV. No one wants that here. We use sticks or kill it , period. We only use our gloves for safety when in our opinion we need to or see something that looks like it may get into it.
Third. I read about supervisors should be held accountable. Accountable for what? Are they out there with you telling you to do things that you wouldn't do otherwise? Around here the foreman is directly responsable for the entire crew. They have documented tailboards everyday every jobsite. When an accident happens , you can't just blame a supervisor. If you don't like where you work , just look at the job postings on this site and you can go where the grass is greener. That's just my opinion and thank you for letting me rant.

Congradulations PSE Lineman for working in a unique corner of the world! Not everyone is a "One County Lineman". In the rest of the world linework is not performed quite like Puget Sound Energy, and for your information a Foreman is Supervision.

PSE Lineman
04-01-2007, 12:32 PM
So why you are trying to pick a fight us and ca tramp? I'm just making a point how safe it is to work around here. Just because a foreman where you are is supervision doesn't mean he has the final say how it's going to be done. Any lineman worth his salt can tell him to do it his self if he want's to do it the way that you don't agree with. I know how to wear a toga so don't lecture me about one county. Just stick to the topic and quit making snide remarks.

BigClive
04-01-2007, 03:24 PM
My prayers go out to this young man. This accident still brings up alot of questions. Why are apps getting hurt so much? Apps need the time to train, theres a reason the programs 4 YEARS long. I know that we are not the only ones having to work short handed but we shouldn't let apps work over the guide lines set out in their appretiship. This profesion doesn't leave room for many mistakes, which makes even more important every day that we really watch out for each other.

C'mon Graybeard. Deep down you KNOW why apprentices are getting hurt. It's down to misguided economy forced by technically unskilled management and the hideous lack of planning for future skilled workforce needs that has resulted in the current shortage of skilled labour. The current generation of management genuinely believe that anyone can be sent up a pole to work live with the minimal of training in complete safety. This isn't helped much by the complete lack of technical ability displayed by the "health and safety" authorities around the world. It's not just America and it's not just linework. Safety standards are lowering rapidly and the safety authorities are covering their ass by introducing nonsensical blanket safety nonsense that is designed to negate liability to them and corporate management.

Bull Dog
04-01-2007, 06:54 PM
Tks big guy you said it so much better than i could and all the way from across the pond no less. We support the brits in Iran also tks. Many out there got there head in the sand. Im not trying to knock anybody we all care the same I think but we have different reasons why these things happen. I also would add way to often there is a problem with upper management not placing lives over profits. The corperate culture must change. Yes they think one can just pluck someone off the street and in a few months they can do anything. Someone needs to wake up!

topgroove
04-01-2007, 09:05 PM
C'mon Graybeard. Deep down you KNOW why apprentices are getting hurt. It's down to misguided economy forced by technically unskilled management and the hideous lack of planning for future skilled workforce needs that has resulted in the current shortage of skilled labour. The current generation of management genuinely believe that anyone can be sent up a pole to work live with the minimal of training in complete safety. This isn't helped much by the complete lack of technical ability displayed by the "health and safety" authorities around the world. It's not just America and it's not just linework. Safety standards are lowering rapidly and the safety authorities are covering their ass by introducing nonsensical blanket safety nonsense that is designed to negate liability to them and corporate management.

God Damn,,,, Big Clive.... That is F...ing brilliant. I never heard it put that way but You hit the nail on the head with that one. and you said it with such few words.

US & CA Tramp
04-02-2007, 11:34 AM
So why you are trying to pick a fight us and ca tramp? I'm just making a point how safe it is to work around here. Just because a foreman where you are is supervision doesn't mean he has the final say how it's going to be done. Any lineman worth his salt can tell him to do it his self if he want's to do it the way that you don't agree with. I know how to wear a toga so don't lecture me about one county. Just stick to the topic and quit making snide remarks.


I am not making snide remarks, or trying to pick a fight PSE. I am simply making a point that the rest of the world works differently than in Washington State. If you look up the statistics, Washington State has had their share of accidents and fatalities as well. Whether you are using sticks or rubber gloves, makes no difference, since both techniques can be performed safely with the proper training. No matter how unfounded,you may feel secure with your union, but not everyone has that same feeling of security. As a last note, according to federal regulations a foreman is an extension of management in the field, and is responsible just like any other supervision, whether they are union or not.

PS Big Clive is absolutely right!!!!

PSE Lineman
04-02-2007, 11:42 PM
OK we are getting off the track here. This topic is about an ape getting burned and we are all supossed to learn from it , am I right? Why are people always trying to cast blame on someone else? Sure , the rest of the crew IS to blame for him being alone in the bucket. He never should've been near the high side also. Next thing you know people will blame the voltage for being so high. The reason I mention sticks is you have an approach rule. 7200 is 2 feet. When you invade that 2 feet without cover you are in direct violation of state law in Washington.
And another thing , I'm sorry to inform you tramp , but line work hasn't changed that much in the last 50 years except buckets and hydraulics to do the heavy lifting. Sure there is your computerized stuff , that takes time to learn too. Line work is line work where ever you go in the world! The wire is on a glass , deadended or on a suspension , ya have to get it up there , get it clipped and get down safely. I'm no robo lineman , but I know how to keep my elbows and hands where they belong at all times. These guys that we keep hearing about that are getting themselves killed and maimed are making me sick to my stomach. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO HAPPEN! The men that are the teachers need to take that 5 extra minutes to show these guys whats what all the time. Are they getting shown the pictures of burn victims in the hospital during their apprenticeship? They sure should , and often! Just to remind YOU and them what one little tiny wee mistake can result in!!! Do you have safety meetings once a month? It's up to all the linemen with apes to teach them the basics so when they top out they can keep themselves alive and get a little work done till they become able to do the work like a professional.

graybeard
04-03-2007, 08:11 PM
Ya I know and your right. I'm just wondering why as foreman,leadmen and journeyman we would let apps get in a position to get in trouble. Its up to us to train and watch out for them no matter how gready a company is.

PA BEN
04-03-2007, 10:18 PM
Not to take away from the man being burnt but I must say that if he had his rubber gloves on this would have never happened. As far as him being allowed in the primary by himself his lineman must have felt confident in him as well as he must have felt comfortable working in the air or he would not have been up their. Within my Local Apprentices are allowed to work in the primary by themselves as long as the lineman and apprentice agree that he is ready. But one thing is for sure we wear Gloves and Sleeves. To me this is another incident that could have been prevented by him wearing gloves and sleeves. Lets not put the blame on everyone else which usually happens here.



Gloves & Sleeves wouldn’t matter if the Apprentice gets into trouble and NO ONE IS WATCHING HIM!!!!! Even a Grunt on the job could say “watch that tail”. Yes we have eager Apprentices and good safe Apprentices, but as a Linemen on the Job with an Apprentice no matter what step, up a pole by himself it’s MY JOB AS THE ONE IN CHARGE TO WATCH HIM. It sounds like the job was all but done, Apprentice runs up to do a quick job, mean wile the short crew on the ground is cleaning up and not watching, it happens all the time. We need to keep an eye on our pole partners all the time. It’s called a safety watch. I’ll get off my soap box now.

tramp67
04-04-2007, 12:33 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Somehow it got posted in the wrong topic. This is the right one...

First of all , I'm really sorry to hear about anyone getting hurt. Like everyone knows , it never should have happened. Here in Northwest Washington we have spacing at 8 feet one inch from primary to neutral with the BOTTOM xfmr one to 2 feet above the neutral. The neut is also where the triplex is deadended. The xfmr leads are cut 2 feet longer than the can. All secondary work is that far from the high side of the can. What , 4 to 5 feet? 15 kva is the shortest and 100's and 167's the tallest. We also have cutouts on EVERY xfmr out there. As I drive around the west coast , I see some neutrals on a bracket away from the pole about 2 feet below the primary and around the top of the can. As far as I can tell , this is not un common. But , is that why the ape got between the high side and the neut with bolt cutters?
Second , the glove issue. We wear our rubbers for 4KV. We have no glove laws that let us glove anything higher than 4KV. No one wants that here. We use sticks or kill it , period. We only use our gloves for safety when in our opinion we need to or see something that looks like it may get into it.
Third. I read about supervisors should be held accountable. Accountable for what? Are they out there with you telling you to do things that you wouldn't do otherwise? Around here the foreman is directly responsable for the entire crew. They have documented tailboards everyday every jobsite. When an accident happens , you can't just blame a supervisor. If you don't like where you work , just look at the job postings on this site and you can go where the grass is greener. That's just my opinion and thank you for letting me rant.

The spacing you have is great, too bad the federal government won't get their heads out of their asses! Ever see REA specs? Neutral goes ABOVE the pot on the pole, a couple inches below the arm brace bolt. Everything is crowded. Maybe was OK when voltages were low, but imagine how fun this ridiculous spacing is on 7200/12480 or 14400/24900 systems!:eek:
I personally prefer gloving over sticks, but I know lots of linemen prefer sticking like you do. :cool:

duckhunter
04-05-2007, 08:26 AM
We are an REA and use 5-foot spacing from phase to nuetral ever since we started gloving. While more distance would be nice, covering up takes care of us. We have never had a primary contact since our creation. We have had only 2 lost-time accidents in 15 years. There are good places to work, we are one of them.

linemurph
04-05-2007, 10:47 AM
If you're not working safe you got nuthin. Bring down the powers that allow this unfortunate situation to occur.Prayers to the young man and his family.

PK270
04-16-2007, 03:14 PM
I love how it is always managements fault. Management thru me into a hot bus and didn't even bother to give me any PPE, PLEASE.

If the ape said they were a non-union outfit we would have a whole different avenue taken here.

Did anyone catch the ape's earlier comment about working secondaries with no rubbers???? I did not see anyone steer him towards the neccesity of wearing gloves.

Management cannot MAKE us wear our gloves. Some of the most stringent safety policies enforced by companies still have accidents for stupid reasons.

Keep telling yourself it is someone else's fault, THEY are not the ones killing themselves.

Oh yeah APE, wear your gloves. They put tombstones on tough guys too.

necpoletop
02-22-2008, 09:06 PM
I love how it is always managements fault. Management thru me into a hot bus and didn't even bother to give me any PPE, PLEASE.

If the ape said they were a non-union outfit we would have a whole different avenue taken here.

Did anyone catch the ape's earlier comment about working secondaries with no rubbers???? I did not see anyone steer him towards the neccesity of wearing gloves.

Management cannot MAKE us wear our gloves. Some of the most stringent safety policies enforced by companies still have accidents for stupid reasons.

Keep telling yourself it is someone else's fault, THEY are not the ones killing themselves.

Oh yeah APE, wear your gloves. They put tombstones on tough guys too.

He should of had a grunt check volltage at the meter can and not on the pot!

mr1234uo
02-22-2008, 09:21 PM
what happend to apprentices working under the direct supervision of a j/l at all times.

necpoletop
02-22-2008, 09:42 PM
what happend to apprentices working under the direct supervision of a j/l at all times.

A jouneryman has to be there wacthing and guiding your every move,where i work an ape can do this work only under the above conditions,But you have to have sleeves and rubbers on!

wtdoor67
02-23-2008, 08:17 AM
jawing about whose fault etc. Basic safety rules and close attention by the Journeyman would have prevented this. Don't worry, there'll be more. The year is still young.

lewy
02-23-2008, 08:28 AM
I know that a lot of people do not want to hear this , but ground to ground rubber glove rule has saved a lot of lives & serious injurys.

PA BEN
02-24-2008, 09:17 AM
If these Lineman, Foreman, GF or Utility braking these rules were found guilty of braking said rule would spend time in jail for killing a man, we wouldn't need new rules to keep us safer. Like I said before, It's like gun control, we have laws on the books right now that well make a difference if enforced. But no lets make new rules to keep our heads out or our ass. :eek:

Not trying to bust your balls lewy, just my two cents:cool:

lewy
02-24-2008, 11:37 AM
No problem like I said it is not a popular thing to hear. It is the only thing that is not completely consistant in our rule book, all of the municipal utilitys have to follow it but Hydro One does not. With a couple of minor exceptions the only time we do not have to wear our gloves is when we are doing live line tool work ( utility work we have to ) & when the line is de-energized. I personally do not like working with them , but they are strict about enforcing it & again they have saved a lot of people which is the bottom line at the end of the day.

BigClive
02-24-2008, 03:18 PM
If these Lineman, Foreman, GF or Utility braking these rules were found guilty of braking said rule would spend time in jail for killing a man, we wouldn't need new rules to keep us safer.

Not really feasible. There aren't enough genuinely technically capable people to fill the required number of positions, so inevitably you get "foremen" who are not really suited for the job. Some of them are forced into the position through simply having a few years more experience, or more likely through a trivial financial incentive. Couple that with the "gallus" labourer who wants to prove themselves by going into a zone outwith their experience and you have an accident waiting to happen. Putting the blame on the crew leader in that instance is not particularly appropriate.

The wage difference between the foreman and the next in line simply isn't worth the extra legal liability, and jailing foremen for accidents on their jobs would simply result in genuinely skilled people declining positions of responsibility.

Just like I do now. I NEVER take charge of jobs purely for the legal liability associated with it. That's one of the reasons I'm freelance. If I work with a company I ensure that one of THEIR men is in charge of the job even if I'm the one doing all the work or "managing" it.

It's not an ideal situation, but as long as there are lawyers riding on the back of society it's one that will prevail.

This rant was brought to you in association with Strongbow cider served in one of Glasgows less reputable bars. (The Solid Rock.) :rolleyes:

mainline
02-26-2008, 04:49 PM
I am sorry for the apprentice, but there really is no excuse for being around an energized can in leather gloves. We see these accidents all the time. The JL on the job should have his ass in a sling for letting that kid go up in leathers. We are ultimately responsible for training younger lineman, not some dipstick middle manager. If we teach them bad habits we put them and ourselves at risk. That said I hope he is able ot recover and I hope the utility is responsible enough to find him another position.

NMSA122-G
03-19-2008, 01:18 AM
It's clear to me why this accident occurred.... This guy is here telling everybody about hands getting caught in equipment, taking rubber gloves off to start a nut on a bolt and above all not knowing what his company’s policy is for wearing rubber gloves!!????

If you can't work with your gloves on and you don't know what the policy is regarding rubber glove use, than you sure as hell don't need to be working anywhere close to anything energized including the nuetral. If you are working with a bunch of idiots that almost killed your friend and are still, after that accident trying to kill themselves and you,,,, THEN FIND SOMEWHERE ELSE TO WORK BEFORE YOU GET KILLED!!!

It's sucks to hear about somebody getting hurt, but it's even worse when you don't learn a damn thing from it...

I just want to yell this is so F’ing STUPID