Changing failing (melting) epoxy insulators?

[jmann]

Does anyone have any experience changing epoxy insulators that are melting due to tracking? We have a ton of these old first era epoxy primary insulators that are failing, the rubber is dripping onto the sidewalks. Some of them are down to the fiberglass rod and that is it. I know some guys will just get right in there and change them like nothing is wrong but I have seen them fail and go phase to ground then phase to phase, not a pretty sight and not anything I wanna be in the middle of! Our management seems to think that we should be doing these jobs hot and we have been fighting it as a safety issue. Let me know if anyone knows any work methods for doing this hot. Thanks.

[Ski_Digger]

Boy I have seen them go bad and be like mush. But, never dripping on the ground. Don't they nock the line out then? If they have gone to grd. when you have been changing them, that is a bad thing, nothing I would want to see ether. Are you cutting any grounds that are run above the Neu. to try and provent it going to ground when you are working on it?
The only other thing is make sure you use a good hoist and a linkstick on the pole side like any other time. May even want to cover the insulator up with a blanket so if a flash happens you got something infront of you. While gettting ready.
Like you said suttin it off sounds the best though:D
Best of luck to you
rember today is friday the 13th
Ski

[Figurehead]

We change out the butyl epoxylators and the aluminum bells in our system. The butyls melt and drip and we refer to them as marshmallows. The fiber rod's left. The Al bells are worse because they just fail without warning and leave the phase hanging by the jumper. Anyway, we replace them hot with hot hoists and sticks and do it real often. Don't have any safety issues with doing this or any specific procedures. We just do it hot aware that it may fail. Would like to know if anyone does it differently or "safer".

[PA BEN]

It's nice working in a hotstick State. You don't have your work in your face.:cool:

[jmann]

In some cases they have gone to ground and taken the line out but others are just sitting there with very little or no epoxy left. We have avoided replacing them hot so far by bringing up our safety concern, but we have a few foreman who were linemen at non-union shops and they seem to think that gettin the job done is more important than gettin it done safely. I don't know bout you guys but I like going home to see my wife and kid . We don't do alot of hot-sticking, its a 12kv system and we glove pretty much all the time. Although sticking in this situation doesn't sound as bad a gloving it. Any other input would be appreciated, thanks.

[Phoenix-7]

Does anyone have any experience changing epoxy insulators that are melting due to tracking? We have a ton of these old first era epoxy primary insulators that are failing, the rubber is dripping onto the sidewalks. Some of them are down to the fiberglass rod and that is it. I know some guys will just get right in there and change them like nothing is wrong but I have seen them fail and go phase to ground then phase to phase, not a pretty sight and not anything I wanna be in the middle of! Our management seems to think that we should be doing these jobs hot and we have been fighting it as a safety issue. Let me know if anyone knows any work methods for doing this hot. Thanks.

You are in the flash area, you do not know when the rod will go to ground.
You are better off to isolate before attempting to change those insulators.
You have a right to refuse if your life is in danger, there is always a work alternative!

[lewy]

Are these dead end or tangent pole insulators? There are a lot of different scenarios, can you cut in temp switches to isolate & change them dead? If not can you plan a big interruption & have everyone tackle them dead, I would think that if you have identified a safety concern & someone got hurt changing them management would be in some trouble.

[wtdoor67]

If it appears hazardous, then kill it out or stick it. Not to hard to stick.

[johnbellamy]

If it appears hazardous, then kill it out or stick it. Not to hard to stick.

Stickin is way to slow, way to hard to learn.

It's like bangin your head against a Fuc$kin brick wall.

[BigClive]

Keeping in mind that if the insulators are on the verge of failure, then the slightest touch could cause complete failure.

I'd say play safe and either isolate or adopt a procedure where priority is given to restraining the wire if the insulator fails during the replacement.

Unfortunately even the act of climbing the pole could vibrate a rogue insulator over the edge.

[tramp67]

Changing them out on a dry day shouldn't be much of an issue. You say it's a 12kv system, 7200 to ground. You can lay a hot phase on a dry arm momentarily without any problem, here you have a fiberglass rod for insulation between the conductor and the arm. Those epoxilators are fiberglass rods that have the mechanical and dielectric strength to support the energized conductors at the rated voltage and load. The gummy goo on there is a watershed skirt to prevent flashover from contamination and moisture. If they didn't flash over in the last rainstorm, they will be fine on a dry day. Most contaminants are fairly good insulators when dry. Hotsticking is all about trusting the dielectric quality of a foam filled fiberglass rod these days - not many people buying wood sticks anymore.
I'm sure some of you will think I'm nuts, but you gotta know what you are working with, and experience lets you know how the stuff behaves.

[Phoenix-7]

Changing them out on a dry day shouldn't be much of an issue. You say it's a 12kv system, 7200 to ground. You can lay a hot phase on a dry arm momentarily without any problem, here you have a fiberglass rod for insulation between the conductor and the arm. Those epoxilators are fiberglass rods that have the mechanical and dielectric strength to support the energized conductors at the rated voltage and load. The gummy goo on there is a watershed skirt to prevent flashover from contamination and moisture. If they didn't flash over in the last rainstorm, they will be fine on a dry day. Most contaminants are fairly good insulators when dry. Hotsticking is all about trusting the dielectric quality of a foam filled fiberglass rod these days - not many people buying wood sticks anymore.
I'm sure some of you will think I'm nuts, but you gotta know what you are working with, and experience lets you know how the stuff behaves.
Would you do this with 27 KV? Not I, isolate and rubber glove it in less than 25% of hotsticking time

[wtdoor67]

Stickin is way to slow, way to hard to learn.

It's like bangin your head against a Fuc$kin brick wall~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~

Yeah John, you're right. Sticking is way to hard for most linemen. Build a shoo fly or take a midnite outage. Wait, there's Swampsuck. Just glove it off the pole you wimps.

[Edge]

well if your gonna glove it from the stick remember to take a piece of #6 and bend it up nice and tight and hang it from your belt so you can put nuts and washers on it...

for 7.2 or 14.4 I think I gotta agree with Tramp67 on a good dry day it would prolly be an easy chgeout with a bucket other wise dump the line or mac it out cut it in a float on both sides (basically change the construction from inline to a double deadend) and change it dead with out having an outage

for what it's worth

Edge

[Figurehead]

Changing bells this way is pretty quick. Granted this dudes "short" sticking and there isn't much cover.

[Phoenix-7]

Changing bells this way is pretty quick. Granted this dudes "short" sticking and there isn't much cover.
Yes, you are right not much cover-up, by the looks of it, the line personel are only three feet from primary.
What are the lineman supposed to do when it starts arcing or flashes over, DUCK.
Looks like a death wish!

[wtdoor67]

Putting the old handline to good use also.

[Capt Bly]

Epoxilators I`ve seen fail, was because they were stored out side. in a box that collected rain water.A unsuspecting crew put them up, in the 230, they lasted about three months.First time responder to this web sight, feels good. I was here , as a regular 8 years ago. Hi! to all my fellow line hands!!

[tramp67]

Would you do this with 27 KV? Not I, isolate and rubber glove it in less than 25% of hotsticking time

Sorry I wasn't real clear in this part of my post. I was referring to the fact that epoxilators are basically a fiberglass rod with skirts, and the rod all by itself has all the dielectric strength you need for the voltage the insulator is designed for. If you can trust the insulating quality of a hotstick, then why wouldn't you be able to trust the insulating quality of a epoxilator without the skirts left on it? The only issue would be surface contaminants on the gummy skirts, or watersheds, that would mostly be a cause for concern when the deteriorated insulator is wet.
When do most flashovers occur on porcelain insulators? When they first get wet, before they get washed off by the rain. The big difference between them and the epoxilators is that the skirts melt and burn on a epoxilator when they flash over.
Personally, I would never stick it if I can glove it.

[mainline]

On 12KV we would cover up, use a link stick and a jack, and change the bell using gloves. On 19.9 we would rig it the same as the guys in the picture, we would just use twice as much coverup. Why is there such a pissing match about sticking versus gloving? They are both valid work methods, Who gives a shit what method you use as long as it is done safely? They both have there pluses and minuses. Do what you do and respect the other guy. Remember we are on the same side.

[Boomer gone soft]

It's nice working in a hotstick State. You don't have your work in your face.:cool:


It's also great for the surgeons fixing all of those shoulders, necks, and carpal tunnel.;)

[PA BEN]

It's also great for the surgeons fixing all of those shoulders, necks, and carpal tunnel.;)

It's called linework.:eek:

[mx-5]

"Stickin is way to slow, way to hard to learn."

"It's like bangin your head against a Fuc$kin brick wall"..way too slow..i don't know about you but i get paid by the hour...i couldn't care less how long it takes..

[johnbellamy]

"Stickin is way to slow, way to hard to learn."

"It's like bangin your head against a Fuc$kin brick wall"..way too slow..i don't know about you but i get paid by the hour...i couldn't care less how long it takes..

Nobody gets me. It's like bangin my head against a Fu$kin brick wall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYiSxkrqMgM

[Ski_Digger]

JohnBell... I hear ya ""love that movie it's a clasic"". At our shop It is all gloven we don't even have those sticks to do it. There is so many was to do job and do them safe. The pic is nice but one thing most places are not sending three guys to change a sup. insulator "or are they".
I think what it comes down to is if your in that bucket and I get that bad gut feeling I am going to back away and talk things over again with my partner. OR If it's strarting to burn you better back out, before it does flash. A guy has to rember the crew should make the call if they feel it is too bad to do hot it better be shut off. Or something else with it.
Mainline I think you hit the nail on the head with a big hammer:D
Lets all work together, and consider all ways when talking about it.
Ski

[johnbellamy]

JohnBell... I hear ya ""love that movie it's a clasic"". At our shop It is all gloven we don't even have those sticks to do it. There is so many was to do job and do them safe. The pic is nice but one thing most places are not sending three guys to change a sup. insulator "or are they".
I think what it comes down to is if your in that bucket and I get that bad gut feeling I am going to back away and talk things over again with my partner. OR If it's strarting to burn you better back out, before it does flash. A guy has to rember the crew should make the call if they feel it is too bad to do hot it better be shut off. Or something else with it.
Mainline I think you hit the nail on the head with a big hammer:D
Lets all work together, and consider all ways when talking about it.
Ski

I knew guy's were gonna tear that pic to shreads, Two guys, one in a bucket, one on the pole, or two in a bucket, I have stated before, I thought guy's did linework the same, same concept, glovin or stickin, this board has shown me that ain't the case.

Hot hoist, grip, cotter key, pin puller, shotgun maybe a clampstick, linkstick if ya think ya need it, rope or nylon sling if ya want. 10 minutes, hit the dirt, 20 minutes tell each other how good we are at this shit, next.

But M X I am a full blooded, IBEW trained, Journeyman Hot sticker, it's all I know, it's all I want to know, they put me in a rubber suit, I guess I will cross that bridge when I get there, I might have to be a riverboat captain or something, what do ya think Mr. Door?

[wtdoor67]

Yeah John I always preferred gloving primary. Usually alone was my preferred method, that way when a flash or such happens it only hurts one person, not 2. Of course if you want a quick tan, that's another free benefit that you get and you don't even have to visit a tanning booth. Of course there's always those free days off while you heal up. Plus you can visit different safety meetings throughout the co. and lecture everyone about how you must be careful.

Gloving is much more macho than sticking. Anybody who's so chicken they want to stay 4 feet or more away from the primary are really not man enough to do linework. You need to close with the beast and show it you're not afraid of it. To be even more macho, glove the bugger from the pole. It's more hazardous, but it's also more daring. If you survive until retirement and have a few digits burned off or some bad scars then it always makes a good conversation piece in the nursing home.

Sticking is much to slow, we get paid by the hour but the boss sure praises us when we get things done quickly and everybody sure likes a pat on the back. Sticks take up to much room on the truck. Gloves not so much. Plus they're very expensive and I want to save the co. as much money as I can so the boss can get a nice bonus.

[PA BEN]

BTW, I've gloved off the pole and I personally prefer hot sticking then gloving. One thing about it, a hotsticker can move to a gloving State and pick it up quick. Not the same the other way.

[Figurehead]

As I mentioned, there's no cover and they're short sticking. Hand lines up because they've got everything they need with them, there are guys, street signs, traffic, and the snows up to our hips. You can waddle in it if you want too but it's not needed. There's a foreman observing the crew. So- a four man crew stickin, that's the way it's done here. I happened to be in the neighborhood and took the picture. It's also about -20F, typical conditions Nov. thru Mar. Hands have cold hands so there is incentive to be efficient.

[lewy]

I have to agree with Mainline stick work & rubberglove work are both approved methods of work. For us anything over 27.6 kv we have to have to either stick it or barehand & there is very little we can do barehand. On everything else the choice is up to us & most times we glove it. There are times when I will stick it because it is faster & easier, but there are some jobs that would be significantly harder with sticks. It is nice not to be pigeon holed into 1 method, but to have a choice.

[Boomer gone soft]

I served my apprenticeship with MoValley. I travelled all over the country getting my hot time in. I spent time in AZ and NV where everything is stick work. I also am a glover. They are both approved methods and a journeyman should be able to do both competently....especially if he is going to boom around.

The most important thing about changing these dead-ends? It's all important. I've seen all kinds of things let go unexpectantly.

We're lineman and we do dangerous work...no real way around it.

WORK SAFE, BROTHERS!:D

[tramp67]

BTW, I've gloved off the pole and I personally prefer hot sticking then gloving. One thing about it, a hotsticker can move to a gloving State and pick it up quick. Not the same the other way.

I started out gloving, and am currently in a stick state. Much, much slower, even for the old dogs that have done nothing but sticking. It all pays the same, but I'd rather work smarter, not harder. I'd rather use a 12 inch wrench than a 12 foot wrench if I don't have to.:p

[PA BEN]

I started out gloving, and am currently in a stick state. Much, much slower, even for the old dogs that have done nothing but sticking. It all pays the same, but I'd rather work smarter, not harder. I'd rather use a 12 inch wrench than a 12 foot wrench if I don't have to.:p

Not here to bust any one's balls. To each his own. I'd rather stick. With these new rules from OSHA coming down the pike, gloves and sleeves Ground to ground, sticking sounds good to me.:D

[tramp67]

Not here to bust any one's balls. To each his own. I'd rather stick. With these new rules from OSHA coming down the pike, gloves and sleeves Ground to ground, sticking sounds good to me.:D

Now, if only there was a way to squash this buttsqueeze thing before it becomes a requirement everywhere.....:confused:

[Ski_Digger]

johnbellamy, Not bustin your pic if thats your crew more power to ya. I got a lot respect for you guys stickin never been trained in it. Were I come from it's more with Less and never met Less yet on the crew:confused::D. All I can say is lets do it the safe way what ever way you do it.
Best to ya.
Ski

[johnbellamy]

johnbellamy, Not bustin your pic if thats your crew more power to ya. I got a lot respect for you guys stickin never been trained in it. Were I come from it's more with Less and never met Less yet on the crew:confused::D. All I can say is lets do it the safe way what ever way you do it.
Best to ya.
Ski

Not my Picture, just was sayin I know guy's that don't stick could have a field day with it, not bustin on FigureHead either, and your right as long as it is safe, Have a good one. Johnny B.

The whole "more with less", might have to use that, good stuff.