i need some advice please read and give me some info

[lineman1010]

how manyof you

three phase riser pole where the feed comes from under ground and feeds the over head, we have to transfer it, already cut and kicked the pole. the old u gaurd in the old aspess pipe that we had to hit with the hammer and break it all off for out make ready with the riser hot, crazy how many peole would just do that. and now on the transfer the wont kill the under ground but we can kill the over head to transfer it they want us to put this rubber caps over the hot ends rubber tape them. we have to pretty much bring the riser to the ground to bring it back up the new pole straight, and we have to do all 3 phases and the neautral together because it all lashed together. they told us they will put the riser in one shot. now this stuff is so old, they wont kill it in the main hole becasue, for one they are full of water and the stuff so old they dont think the switches will work.


this is all 4 kv

how many of you would do this and could you guys give me any advice on what to do and what your opions would be on doing this. all advice would be great.


becasue i think this is a crazy situation in my eye how many guys would do this and how would you do it.

[LEAFMAN]

We wouldn't ever do it that way!!!:confused:

[Twink]

If you’re doing a cut and kick, I’m assuming the old pole is sitting on the ground still upright, right? It is just roped off right? Why can’t you temporary tie the riser to that?

Also, are the three underground phases in some type of bracket? Wouldn’t the bracket itself keep all three phases apart? I mean, I would rubber the tops anyhow but they should already be fairly securely separated already.

[wtdoor67]

Well you don't give enough details for me to completely understand. Here's a few suggestions.

The day it's planned call in with the swine flu. If any of the source is overhead, open it and then the UG switches they're leery about can be opened dead. Pump out the vaults also. Build a temporary shu fly. Set up a portable. Lay some temporary URD on the ground to feed it. What size load is it? What size wire?

Give us more details. I still think swine flu is a good option.

Is this a Muni or something? Contractor for an IOU? Do most of the crew still have all their digits?

4KV is also notorious for breakers not working as advertised. Tell them you want your lawyer present.

[grillman]

Yeah. The first shot will just maim you. Its the second and if you are tough the third that is the knockout punch. This is one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard. This is probably one of the companys that says safety id our top concern. What a fricking joke. Kill the underground. If they say you can't, show them how to pull an elbow. Open their eyes. This is the crap that gets linmen killed.
How far from the sub or the nearest OCR are you? Put all these factors into their head. It might change some minds and turn heads.
PLAY IT SAFE
Grillman

[lineman1010]

i already told them i am not doing it, the ocr are so old they dont want to touch them, we are doing work for national grid, a big power company out this way i am in the union. its one of the most craziest things i have ever got asked to do and i dont want anyone of the job to do it unless the kill it,

thanks for the replies u guys are on the same page as me

twink the old pole is all lashed off its already cut and kicked new pole set, the riser comes up and goes straight into the cutouts, we have to take them out of the cutouts put rubber boots on the end up the wire rubber tape them all up bring them down under the secondaries telephone and cable and u cant do one at a time because the riser cable is all lashed going down the pole into the riser pipe its like its ariel cable in the riser,


i told them i am not doing it unless they kill the riser

the riser goes up into the cutouts and feeds ariel cable and we set a pole one pole down and need to transfer the ariel cable, the ariel cable is so old u can see the insulation falling off

[wtdoor67]

Midnight kill? Sunday kill?

[lineman1010]

midnight kill

[mx-5]

if you are dumb enough to do und/over primary voltage hot,then you need to find another line of work..:eek:

[Koga]

Either they kill it, or it dont get moved. Thats it .

Koga

[lineman1010]

if you are dumb enough to do und/over primary voltage hot,then you need to find another line of work..:eek:



i hear ya somebody will end up doing it tho and they can have it i just hope nothing happens to them

[Swamprat]

how manyof you

three phase riser pole where the feed comes from under ground and feeds the over head, we have to transfer it, already cut and kicked the pole. the old u gaurd in the old aspess pipe that we had to hit with the hammer and break it all off for out make ready with the riser hot, crazy how many peole would just do that. and now on the transfer the wont kill the under ground but we can kill the over head to transfer it they want us to put this rubber caps over the hot ends rubber tape them. we have to pretty much bring the riser to the ground to bring it back up the new pole straight, and we have to do all 3 phases and the neautral together because it all lashed together. they told us they will put the riser in one shot. now this stuff is so old, they wont kill it in the main hole becasue, for one they are full of water and the stuff so old they dont think the switches will work.


this is all 4 kv

how many of you would do this and could you guys give me any advice on what to do and what your opions would be on doing this. all advice would be great.


becasue i think this is a crazy situation in my eye how many guys would do this and how would you do it.

I guess...by basic non "understanding"....is, You're Union.... Don't work it.
Seriously.
I thought a "Union" Linemen...Knows it all.:D

4 Kv? :D

Unfortunately....I have to go with Mr. door.

"Well you don't give enough details for me to completely understand."

But...I can also understand the mentality of...."Either they kill it, or it dont get moved. Thats it ."

[topgroove]

this job makes about as much sence as installing a new chandelier*in a haunted house. if your gonna go to through the trouble of installing a new upfeed riser pole why not go the extra step of pumping out the vault and see what needs to be done to make switching safe. chances are the elbows are all non-loadbreak anyway. my first move would be to repair the vault. that way if you ever wanted to de-energize the circuit expecially in an emergancy you could. Hell the 4kv cable is probebly in duct why not even run new cable from the vault up the riser.

[lineman1010]

swamp rat if u think this has something to do with union and non union, then how about u come on up to ma and do this pole, everything to you is union this and non union that every post u make has something to do with union guys or non union this was a question about line work. not if a union hand could do this or a non union hand could. but the rat would do it cuz they dont knwo anybetter

[Figurehead]

Open the urd riser before you transfer it. You already know it's the right thing to do. Stick with your gut feeling.

[T-Man]

There is no load affected the way you explained it, that cable goes right up the pole you are moving coming straight out of the vault/manhole. You don't need to arrange an outage with customers, you can take some time to get R done. . . so why in H E Double hockey sticks would you move an old 4kv riser like that hot? You are just looking for trouble. Don't let a "Tie" sitting in an air conditioned office looking at how much this is going to cost, try to convince you to do it hot . They haven't got a clue. . . This makes no sense to me either. Pump out the vault have your dispatcher write up a clearance , open the switch or whatever the disconnect is in the vault/manhole and get a Hold off on that cable, do it right and safe.
The "Tie" don't want you to fall off that pole in your Bucksqueeze so why are they asking you do do this dirty deed? :eek:

[racinsprintz10]

not to beat a dead horse but this sounds like one of the most absurd requests from utility that I have ever heard. I love the new "safety first" mentality all the IOU's swear to live by and then ask a crew to do something like this. The utility just flat ass doesnt want to spend the money to fix what they need to. They come up with some job like this and as soon as something goes wrong will blame you. These utilities dont realize that "the chance" they take to save few bucks will cost lives. I just dont get it.

[Boomer gone soft]

Already stated numerous times and clearly one more for the "tie" in the office may be warranted:

"F YOU. DO IT YOURSELF AND GET MY Fing CHECK IF THAT'S WHAT IT TAKES."

Kill the feed to the underground.
Fix the vault.
Fix the switches.
Install load-break elbows.

Why not take the time to make the whole works right? Just changing the pole doesn't really "improve" anything.

Do it dead or don't do it at all.

Why not kill the underground? It doesn't sound like it feeds anything else....Even if it does--It's better to kill the underground than to KILL YOURSELF!

Watch your back, brother....

It doesn't sound like anyone else is.:mad:

[loodvig]

This jod is on the GRIDS property? The GRID linemen would kill it! I think your contractor has bid it to do it hot! Your crazy if you do it hot!

[lineman1010]

i know grid wont do it thats why we have it, the contractor didnt bid to do this hot, the whole job is a t&e job,

[AEE/linehand]

If they can put it on one shot they can kill it.

[LINCRW]

It's hard to know the best way to approach the job, but I can tell you that moving the URD to the new pole while it is hot is not the safe way.

I can imagine quite a number of ways to work the job, but without knowing the specifics it's all a moot point.

Since you could kill the overhead line, I'd figure out how to kill the URD next. If the host company won't trust the closest switch to kill the line, move to the next up line device. If that would drop more load than they are willing to drop, schedule the outage early AM or late PM on some designated day and let the company notify it's customers. Or figure out some way to keep the load on line temporarily while you kill the URD cable you have to move. Many, many, many ways to do this safe.

If you could provide a map and distances of what all you're dealing with, this would be easier to help you with.

LONG STORY SHORT IS, DO NOT MOVE THE URD HOT AS YOU DESCRIBED.

The host utility needs to remember that electricity is not a guaranteed commodity to it's customers, nor is it worth the life of anyone performing the work.

[lewy]

Do you have a right to refuse unsafe work?

This is the way it works in Ontario


What is unsafe work?
Unsafe work is work that is likely to endanger a worker.
Can I refuse to do unsafe work?
Yes, a worker can refuse work she or he believes might endanger herself or himself, or endanger a co worker. Ontario's Occupational Health and Safety Act explains this.
When can't I refuse unsafe work?
A worker can't refuse unsafe work when those unsafe work conditions are a part of the work, or a normal work condition. Nor can a worker refuse unsafe work when the refusal directly endangers another person's life, health or safety.

So corrections workers, firefighters, police, and health care workers cannot exercise the right to refuse unsafe work, except in certain circumstances.
Can all workers refuse unsafe work?
Domestic workers and agricultural workers can't exercise this right.
What's the proper procedure if I'm going to refuse unsafe work?
1. Report and stay on site for the joint investigation

The worker's priority is reporting immediately to the supervisor the refusal to work and the related safety concern. Remaining on site for the shift, while taking every measure to report the refusal, minimizes complications down the road.

Together, the supervisor and the worker investigate the work, along with

* a worker on the health and safety committee, or a worker health and safety representative, or

* if there's no committee or worker health and safety representative, a worker chosen by the refusing worker.


If the work is safe, or it is made safe, then the worker returns to work. But if the worker continues to believe the work is unsafe, the worker can continue refusing the work.

2. Inspector's Investigation

The work is investigated again, if the refusal continues. The refusing worker, or a representative of the refusing worker can call a government inspector at the Ministry of Labour. Go to the Ministry of Labour for addresses and phone numbers of regional offices. Or phone the Occupational Health and Safety Branch of the Ministry at 1-800-268-8013, free of charge from anywhere in the province.

The inspector's investigation decides whether the work is likely to endanger the worker or anyone else. The inspector's decision is given in writing to the worker, the worker's representative, and the employer. The worker returns to work if the inspector decides the work isn't dangerous.

A worker who disagrees with the inspector's decision can appeal it - that is, have the decision investigated by the Ontario Labour Relations Board. For information on the appeal process, go to the ONTARIO LABOUR RELATIONS BOARD.
Will I be paid while I refuse to work?
While the law is not clear, when there has been disagreement over pay, the Ontario Labour Relations Board has decided that the refusing worker is paid until the joint investigation is complete.

While waiting for the inspector's investigation, if there is one, the supervisor can assign the refusing worker to do other work. A worker covered by a collective agreement follows the agreement's specifications on work reassignment during a refusal.
Can my supervisor assign the refused work to another worker?
While waiting for the inspector's decision, the refused work can be assigned to another worker. First, the other worker must be told about the refusal and the safety concerns in front of a worker health and safety representative, or, if there is none, in front of a worker who is chosen because of her or his knowledge, experience and training. The worker assigned to do the refused work can refuse it, too.
Can I be fired or disciplined for refusing work I believe is unsafe?
Workers' hesitation to use the right to refuse is well grounded, since refusing workers sometimes do get fired or disciplined. Following the steps of the refusal procedure helps a refusing worker to protect her or his job. Still, it's illegal for a supervisor or employer in Ontario to dismiss or discipline a worker for refusing work she or he believes is unsafe.

If a worker suspects that she or he has been fired or punished for refusing unsafe work, the worker can use the grievance procedure under a collective agreement. A worker's who's not unionized can make a complaint to the Ontario Labour Relations Board. For more information on making a complaint, read Unlawful Reprisal Applications under Section 50 of the Occupational Health and Safety Act.

[THE KID]

Is it not in the Safety Manual to not move energized URD cable over 600 volts??

[Stinger]

First of all, you do not have to do it if can not be done safely. Call the Hall, they will back you. A few years ago we had the same senerio in Malden with lead riser. Flat ass told the Grid we were not going to do it hot, schedue an outage or do it yourself. The contracts allow for a contractor to refuse work. The next one we had like that in Everett, They scheduled an outage at Midnight. Transfer took very little time. Your going to find a lot of riser feeding the Overhead in Grid areas such as Lawrance, Lowell, Malden. You will also find areas in the cities where the overhead secondary feed come up a riser from another street over. Found out the hard way on a job in Lynn. We assumed the secondary riser was feeding a customer. The best we could determine on the location of the riser that it was feeding one business, told the customer he would be out of power for about 30 minutes. We cut the connections. Numerous people wanted to know why they did not power. We had the buckwheat look, when we finally noticed there was no overhead primary anywhere on the street, since the job card said only to transfer secondary and dead end onto new pole. it gave the ciruit number and it was behind fuse, no DNR required, it did not mention the secondary feed was the riser, otherwise we would have knocked on all the doors. We learned some valuable lessons from that little mistake.

[mainline]

Let me guess the idea is, its okay because it is only 4KV. You are dead on, its dumb, and dangerous. The company is asking you to do something it wouldn't try with its own lineman. If they have a problem with their switch gear then maybe they should do some maintenance on it while they give you an outage. The aerial cable is the same thing, do it it during the outage or replace it during the outage. The company is opening itself up to some serious liability if it asking you to do something dangerous after a protest has been lodged, plus they are leaving equipment in place that they know to be in poor and possibly dangerous condition. Everything you have talked about is bad, stick to your guns.

[graybeard]

Don't do it, bad planning and going the CHEAP route will get somebody killed. Sounds to me like they need to do alot of work on that circuit. If your not going to fix it right why bother to fix it at all. It sounds like relieabilty isn't even an after thought which seems to be the coming thing in the industry. Crisis managment, wait till it breaks or hurts someone. We're just going backwards so they can improve bottom line and give bounses.

[old lineman]

I was always taught that placing a relcoser on "one shot" was only for the protection of the equipment. Aren't you the object to be protected.
Your unique and can't be replaced (in you circle of friends and family).
They make new equipment every day.
The best anology I ever heard was when the discussion turned to INSTANEOUS trip vs 3-6 CYCLES.
The difference between the two in the case of the linemen is.
RARE AND WELL DONE.
Make them change the plan. To proceed as is nuts.
The Old LIneman

[darrell kuhn]

I just came off Grids property---tell that inspector-- their crews would never so i think agree to this stupid stuff--hope you have many more years in this trade...bring your nuts and step-up:confused:

[Tsplice]

Don't let them kill or maim you kid!!!:mad:If they can de-energize the overhead,they can de-energize the underground,PERIOD!!!!!Even if it's a midnight job,it's better than doing something that STUPID!:eek:

[squarewasher]

Hey Lineman1010, If you don't feel safe call the hall and tell them or call the safety Dept and ask for Paul Loughran at 508-668-5856. Thats what he gets paid for, to go out and check on shit like this. Tell them no and live to climb another day. stay safe. Square Washer

[lineman1010]

Hey Lineman1010, If you don't feel safe call the hall and tell them or call the safety Dept and ask for Paul Loughran at 508-668-5856. Thats what he gets paid for, to go out and check on shit like this. Tell them no and live to climb another day. stay safe. Square Washer

thats what we did, sean mac came out and looked at it the other day, took pictures and everything told all of us we have the right to refuse work that we feel is un safe

[Gridhotstick]

Where about on Grid property was this? No surprise Grid would ask the outside contractors to do a job they know a Union Lineman that works for the company wouldn't do. Stick to your guns, its just not safe!

[lineman1010]

Where about on Grid property was this? No surprise Grid would ask the outside contractors to do a job they know a Union Lineman that works for the company wouldn't do. Stick to your guns, its just not safe!

out in worcester ma,

[LINCRW]

How did this work out in the end?

[lineman1010]

well this is how its going to work. everyone who was working for harlan refused to do it. and that was the last job harlan had in the area before they went to new york. so the job got finished with out that pole being done and everyone got laid off. well now thiro is out there doing the same work harlan was doing and i guess they are going to have thiro do that pole. the guys from thiro asked us about it and we told them about it and how we werent going to do it. i dont know if the guys from thiro plan on doing it.



so what basicly happened is we all refused it and they passed the pole off to another company and a bunch of other guys. al the guys who work for thiro are union hands too so they know they can refuse it. we will have to wait and see what happens with this one

[Swamprat]

well this is how its going to work. everyone who was working for harlan refused to do it. and that was the last job harlan had in the area before they went to new york. so the job got finished with out that pole being done and everyone got laid off. well now thiro is out there doing the same work harlan was doing and i guess they are going to have thiro do that pole. the guys from thiro asked us about it and we told them about it and how we werent going to do it. i dont know if the guys from thiro plan on doing it.



so what basicly happened is we all refused it and they passed the pole off to another company and a bunch of other guys. al the guys who work for thiro are union hands too so they know they can refuse it. we will have to wait and see what happens with this one

Can ya post a picture of the pole man? Would be interesting to see it.

[LostArt]

Can ya post a picture of the pole man? Would be interesting to see it.

Not the "man" just the pole 1010.












Hehehehehehe.........

[lineman1010]

ill ask one of the guys i know working out there to take a pic and send it to me ill try to get one up here for everyone can see it

[Swamprat]

ill ask one of the guys i know working out there to take a pic and send it to me ill try to get one up here for everyone can see it

That would be cool man. Not to argue, just to see this monstrosity.:cool: