lineman school vs jatc

[2WDKING]

i wouled like to see an article on the pros and cons of doing an apprenticeship vs lineman school article in powerlineman magazine! any comments i am in this boat myself:confused::confused:

[T-Man]

The way I see our Apprenticship laid out compared to a line school, the line school teaches all the math and a broad section of the indusrty. They teach you to climb somewhat. They also teach skills a person could use beyond line work. When you come here we teach you the way we do line work.

Most of our new apps can't hang a service in 20 min at first but they can tell you how a substation works. . .They can't tell you what connectors are for which wire or the grip sizes. . .

well let me tell you brother we aint sending you out to build substations and power plants, we need you to grunt and grunt good and do some service work, work your way up the ladder.

Don't get me wrong line school people have a lot of talent and in most cases can climb a wee bit but they do not know how to do the work the line crews do.

Example: my partner just told me he saw some apps hanging arms at their school as a demo for the interested Utilities. . . these guys were putting the bolt with a half round washer thru the back of pole moving their belt up to hold the bolt then trying to slide the xarm on to the bolt. Maybe some of you do it that way. . .we don't, we put the bolt thru the xarm and heft the arm and bolt into the hole in one motion no monkeying around.

So while I think a utility likes the fact you spent time learning something and they prefer hiring someone with "Training" it's the gumption part were looking for. .when the rubber hits the road the apprentiship and schooling we do takes that material and makes linemen out of em. . .

Hey if I'm wrong let me know. . .I'm flexible.:cool:

T

[MI-Lineman]

The way I see our Apprenticship laid out compared to a line school, the line school teaches all the math and a broad section of the indusrty. They teach you to climb somewhat. They also teach skills a person could use beyond line work. When you come here we teach you the way we do line work.

Most of our new apps can't hang a service in 20 min at first but they can tell you how a substation works. . .They can't tell you what connectors are for which wire or the grip sizes. . .

well let me tell you brother we aint sending you out to build substations and power plants, we need you to grunt and grunt good and do some service work, work your way up the ladder.

Don't get me wrong line school people have a lot of talent and in most cases can climb a wee bit but they do not know how to do the work the line crews do.

Example: my partner just told me he saw some apps hanging arms at their school as a demo for the interested Utilities. . . these guys were putting the bolt with a half round washer thru the back of pole moving their belt up to hold the bolt then trying to slide the xarm on to the bolt. Maybe some of you do it that way. . .we don't, we put the bolt thru the xarm and heft the arm and bolt into the hole in one motion no monkeying around.

So while I think a utility likes the fact you spent time learning something and they prefer hiring someone with "Training" it's the gumption part were looking for. .when the rubber hits the road the apprentiship and schooling we do takes that material and makes linemen out of em. . .

Hey if I'm wrong let me know. . .I'm flexible.:cool:

T

Hey T-Man, you're right-on with this one! I had the PLEASURE (sarcasm) of being an "associate" (big term for teachers aid) instructor at a line school program with a local college and our company. This is just another way for the companies to save money in training!:mad: They don't have to pay a kid in climbing school, ground school, CDL, First Aid, etc, etc. Most of these kids got hired here and some struggled bad!

The class was poorly ran, underfunded, and just a big p.r. circus. But it's going to be the new standard everywhere I'm afraid!:(

[tramp67]

Ha! Others out there who believe the arm bolt should go in from the arm side, rather than the back of the pole! One of those many construction details that vary from one location to the next. Not only does your way make more sense in the original installation, T-man, but it sure makes replacing the arm much easier. Take the nut off the old bolt, drive it halfway through the pole, and place the new arm with the glass on it, and a new bolt on the opposite side of the pole. Drive the new bolt all the way in, the conductors rest on the new glass, and the ties keep the old arm from falling to the ground. What a concept! I'm sure you've done that trick many times, T-man, but it's pretty hard to do when someone puts the bolt in from the opposite side of the pole that the arm is on. Another benefit is the unthreaded part of the bolt is much stronger, keeping the arm from racking around as easily, which also makes driving a bent bolt all the way through the pole very difficult. Sorry, though, t-man, you can't blame that one on the schools as much as what the utilities want the schools to teach.
Personally, I think a combination of line school training followed by the NJATC apprenticeship is the way to go.

[markwho]

Nice posts guys.In my opinion you can't compare the two. The line school should just be in addition to an apprenticeship. Although you may learn quite a bit at school, they should probably still grunt for at least a year also.

[WCLR]

JATC all day over line schools. Why skip on the job training when this job has to be learned ON the job? You cant learn linework in a classroom.

[2WDKING]

i forgot to mention i am holding out for mo valley jatc i have my cdl i have been running 3 miles a day i was ranked #9 then 24 then 40 now currently 43 i have been patiently waiting and training since june 2008 i hear things will break loose mid simmer 2010, i think powerlineman magazine should do and article on this subject of schools vs jatc, just an idea :)

[johnciv6]

I was under the impression, people go to line school to get a leg above everyone else to actually getting in a jatc..

You guys make it sound so easy to get in.. School is pre-apprenticeship training... Not actualy apprenticeship.

[WCLR]

Just depends on where you are at. If you are waiting for something to open up at HOME, you can probably forget about it. These days its travel or not much of anything....

[Boomer gone soft]

If you desire to work for a utility, then consider line school.

Most utilities, especially munis and REA's, don't want JL. They want apes they can train themselves.:rolleyes:

If you want to truly be a JL, go with NJATC......there is NO other way to get a COMPLETE training experience.:eek:

My 2 cents.

[west coast hand]

jatc vs line school, jatc is a apprenticship program line school is a trade school where you go to try to get in the jatc to become a lineman...... but yes i agree they should take guy that have a year or so as a groundman or some experance we have had guys they let right in and have no experance worked a office job or at burger king at least now its changing hear anyway.....

[AmptOut24]

i forgot to mention i am holding out for mo valley jatc i have my cdl i have been running 3 miles a day i was ranked #9 then 24 then 40 now currently 43 i have been patiently waiting and training since june 2008 i hear things will break loose mid simmer 2010, i think powerlineman magazine should do and article on this subject of schools vs jatc, just an idea :)

As others have stated the two should not be compared. If there was to be an article written it should be titled "Entering JATC with or without Line School credit." Attending line school is a great way to get your foot in the door and obtain an apprenticeship. IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM SHOULD LINE SCHOOL EVER BE A REPLACEMENT FOR JATC. Although, some line schools cater to non-union outfits and turn out students to go work as a "lineman" at their company with only line school experience. This is not right, it's dangerous and should not even be an option. But, directors of these line school programs are looking at job placement numbers for recruitment purposes and need those numbers to sell their program.

I'm happy that you are taking it upon yourself to get into shape to be ready for an apprenticeship. No one wants to hire a slug. My advice is if you are in a position that you can sacrifice some time to attend line school you should definately do that. While attending school, contact the utilities/contractors/apprenticeship programs to get your name out there find out what they are looking for in an "intern" or apprentice candidate. Whatever they are looking for...perfect it. Then you will shine when it comes time to tryout or bid for a spot.

[PA BEN]

The only comparison is some guy's think they can go to work right out of Line School and not go through an apprenticeship.

[thumper]

Another consideration is most Union shops will not recognize a line school or give you any advanced placement because you attended one. Most utilities will hire you in as a grunt and you work your way up.
the IBEW has a solid apprenticeship program and you will get a nationally recognized journeyman cert. that you can use anywhere. There is no substitute for on the job training ..books wont get you up the pole and teach you how to do it safely.

[Vel454]

I remember when I was first trying to find out how to get into the trade (still working on it lol) I was confused with the seperation of the two (Apprenticeship and Line school).

To become a Journeyman Lineman, you need to go through an Apprenticeship. It's as simple as that. Line school, as far as I see it, only helps you in 2 ways.

1) It can show you if it's the right path for you to take. Spending a few days on a pole playing with wire might make you realize it's not your cup of tea. Or, it might inspire you even more to follow the path.

2) It might help you land an apprenticeship spot. Will it substantially help you with this? Quite simply put, not at all. Some companies could really care less about it, like the local company I've been wanting to get on with for some time (Snohomish County PUD in Washington). But, if it came down to choosing between you and some other guy. Both of you, pretty much the same, as far as qualifications goes, only you spent your own money to go to a climb school might show you have the heart and soul for it that the other guy has yet to show. With that, you might get the slight edge. Other than that... *shrugs*.

Last spring the Sno. PUD had 5 apprenticeship positions open. I don't know how many applied, but 1,100 people were called in for testing. Out of that 1,100 people, 450 past the written test. They had more people than they thought, so they dropped enough people to get down to 250 (I was one of the 200 that got dropped). Those 250 go on to the physical test. My uncle is a line foreman for the company and said they usually lose about 70% of the people in the fitness part. 250 - ~70% is around 75 people who passed both written and physical. So... 75 people got to do an interview. With 5 spots open, thats a 1 in 15 chance of getting the job. I didn't get an actual number, but the impression I got, there was around a 1-2 dozen people there, that had attended a line school. It doesn't replace an Apprenticeship, nor does it make you any more qualified than someone who didn't attend one. It simply helps you learn more about the tools of the trade (score slightly higher on the written) and might get you a bit more fit and skilled in climbing (score slightly higher on the physical).

But, out of roughly 75 people that were interviewed (let's be pessimistic and assume 2 dozen), 1/3rd of them that went to climb school. Odds are definitely against you, if you have not gone that extra mile as many others have. Does that count you out of the race if you have not gone? Of course not. But if you find yourself in the same situation, being 1 out of 1,100 people. It takes a hell of a lot, to outshine the rest of the people. When it comes down to it, if you and another guy have similar test scores and experiences, and this other guy is just looking for another job because he got laid off a few months ago, and you put out your own money and time to go to a climb school, it shows them that *this* is the *career* you want, and your not just another dude looking for a paycheck. Theres your only slight edge really.

Personally, I can't wait to go to a climb school (planning on going to VOLTA). Regardless if it helps me get an apprentice spot or not, it'll give me a taste of what I'm striving for and just fuel the fire that much more.

Just my 2 cents.

[linestudent]

As a person currently attending school (college in Michigan) to be a lineman, I can say for sure I would much rather hire in as a grunt and get an apprenticeship that way. If you can tell me where they will hire me, sign me up. I am going to school so that someone will hire me to be in apprentice. I in no way believe that by going through school I will know how to be a lineman. We just want to be accepted into an apprenticeship. School seems to be the best way to get there. I went to an albat interview a while back before I started school. They asked me all kinds of questions about what I know, do I have any licenses, what kind of classes have I taken etc. I had absolutely no experience, schooling, or anything else related to linework. For what I had, I felt like I did an awesome job in the interview. That landed me at number 83 on the list. I think had I finished school I'd be much higher on that list. A utility company here in Michigan works directly with the school I am going to. They hire apprentices right out of school. Generally before there completely finished. So, if I can do well in this program I can almost guarantee myself an apprenticeship. That is why I am going to school.

[Ranger76]

Right now I am a Commercial Electrician Apprentice. I work for a non union Company and would love to be a Lineman for the IBEW. I will have an interveiw in June for NW Njatc lineman Apprenticeship. I really want to Knock there socks off in the interveiw. Can anyone please tell me how to prepare for it.

[tyld]

Not real sure how it can be said that going to a lineschool doesnt make you any more quallified for a starting position? You invested your time and money into the trade. And have skills neccesary for working in the field ( climbing hanging cross arms and such). I dont think it should ever take the place of an aprenticeship but it does make you more qualified than someone off of the street with no schooling or previous exp. I am currently in a lineschool in ohio and we work in the field 5 hrs a day 5 days a week so were not just learning out of books. just my thoughts on the issue.

[Lineman1904]

I just finished the ELP program at Northwest linemans college, California. Also i took the NCCCO crane cert class offered there. I have been working for a contractor as a grunt hand digging pole holes as well as digging and setting anchors for the local utility for the last three years. It didnt take long for me to decide that i wanted to become a real Lineman. I am a IBEW member with 4000 hours of ground time. So now here i am with my certs,CDL and ground time waiting for the books to start moving and or JATC to resume accepting apps. I believe that when this happens,the ELP cert,crane cert, CDL and ground time could give me some prefrence over alot of other applicants. I had nothing to lose by going to line school and im glad i did it.

[climbsomemore]

Down here in OK some of the munis have hire out of the schools. The bigger towns have just worked the kids into the regular program. The smaller (real small) towns hired the guy as the superintenent (tounge in cheek but truer than I'd care to admit)

If you can go right to a muni or IBEW local and get paid to learn from Day 1 you will be money ahead.

[climbsomemore]

Consumers Energy and some of the other companies in the upper midwest want the bolt through the arm.... claim the arm carries on the weaker threaded part of the bolt.

I can see this being a problem with the fat old "timber" crossarms or on some transmission details... but a standard arm with #2 Al? C'mon.

If a 5/8" bolt wont keep a cross arm on a pole... try a 3/4" if your that worried about things breaking.

[Highplains Drifter]

Back in the dark ages I think bolts where tooled where the new ones look like they roll the thread on them. If you look at a 5/8ths bolt the threads are actually thicker than the shank. A 5/8ths nut from the past will be to small for today’s 5/8ths bolt. A couple of years ago on a wreck out, I had forgotten what the old D.As looked like, they where not all thread like today’s but only had about 8” of thread on both ends. So IMHO I feel with the threads thicker than the shank that the threads are now stronger or just as strong.

[unionhand]

I guess i've never seen a bolt from the "dark ages" yet. But putting the arm on is a matter of prefernce, obviously. i've put them on both ways ( i get to a new local and see how they want it, and i deliver). and ive also had no problem installing or wrecking out a crossarm both ways metioned. gotta be versatile as a good lineman should be. and for the bolt it hold a cross arm that would be pretty heavy wire to snap it off.

highplanes i thought this was the dark ages, bucksqueeze, truck grounds, ncco cards ect...

everyone have a good one and work safe. and buy UNION!!!!!!!

[apprenticelineman]

I was under the impression, people go to line school to get a leg above everyone else to actually getting in a jatc..

You guys make it sound so easy to get in.. School is pre-apprenticeship training... Not actualy apprenticeship.

Thats exactly what I did! I went to Northwest lineman college to just get a foot in the door with anybody and that barely got me a job. I have a class a, ncco crane cert and first aid training and just wanted to get on and start learning and my goal is to get into a jatc program work union and learn how to do this work the right way safely. I can say that some of the people i went to school with did believe they were lineman just because they went to school and I worked with a couple of em that got hired on by the same company and the journey man quickly let them know they werent.