Does anyone understand why we are bonding guys even with glass rods?

[lewy]

Holy Cow, what a conversation. Let me add my 2 cents, and the reasons why I have 2 cents to add.

DO NOT bond your neutral to a down-guy or the anchor rod. A down-guy should be isolated from everything. It should have a head/body/and tail. The head is usually the fiber or glass rod at the top, the body is between the rod and the insulator near the ground which creates the tail. The guy should have the bottom 8 feet isolated to protect the people on the ground in case the guy breaks and makes contact with a live source. The people on the ground are supposed to be protected. Us lineman on the pole don't need protection from a guy because the guy should be isolated and we should know what we're doing.
If you bond the guy to your system neutral with no isolation points in the guy wire, you'll be turning your anchor rod into a ground rod. If you've ever pulled an old ground rod out while replacing a pole, you'll notice it's usually much shorter and now comes to a sharp point. That's the result of overvoltage going to earth at that point through the neutral and ground system. That's what a ground rod is supposed to do. If you ground your guy, the anchor rod will burn off from the anchor the same way. One of these days, and with any strain on it all, it will pull out of the ground and you lose your down-guy.
Let your guy and anchor be an anchor. Don't try to have them be a ground rod too.

The neutral is supposed to be grounded as often as you can. Your system is only as good as your neutral. Neutrals should be grounded every 600 feet and at every equipment pole. More often if you can. That's why most Wye systems are called "multi-grounded wye". Install a ground rod (meggered to less than 25 ohms) with minimum #6 copper and attach it to the neutral at every other pole if you can. While your at it, CLAMP the neutral directly to the pole. The objective is to GROUND the neutral, not insulate it from a ground potential. Those of you who do insulate the neutral on a spool will dead end it directly to the pole in the next span!! (and maybe even ground it to the down-guy and anchor rod?) That doesn't make any sense. I know it's a "current carrying conductor", but it's at ground potential and it's designed to be at ground potential, and we should do all we can to keep it at ground potential.
Those companies that clamp their neutrals to the pole don't do it so the linemen can use it as a pole bracket for equi-potential grounding either. They do it so their neutral is grounded as well as it can be 100% of the time. As a result of that good ground source, a lineman can use it for equi-potential grounding the 1% of the time he may be out there. At times, the pole can be a better ground than the #6 wire running down it. Team them together for a better ground. The more a neutral is grounded, and the better the grounds are, the safer your neutral will be and it will serve your system better.
Why insulate a neutral from the pole and then attach a down-ground wire to it that's stapled to the pole all the way down to the ground? What was the thinking behind that? Doesn't that make the insulator kind of useless?

Make your down-guys a down-guy and not a ground rod, but, ground your neutrals every chance you get. You're system will be better off for it!!

Well said I agree, for us the minimum is #4 stranded copper for transformer poles and 1/0 standed copper for riser poles

[thrasher]

copperlineman; I don't know where you work but we cannot build by the specs you are calling for. RUS and the NESC require all grounds exposed to the public to be bonded together. I have personally measured 48 V DC between an non-bonded anchor/guy wire and the pole ground near a railroad track. Have also found 20 V AC on a non-bonded guy wire compared to the pole. So we put a insulator in the guy to get the bare metal below the neutral and then bond the guy to the neutral below the neutral. As for using an insulator on the neutral even though it is bonded that's to stop AM radio noise. If you have a heavy loaded neutral and it can move across the downground it will make interference, whereas an insulator and a bond wire makes an electrical solid connection while allowing the wire to shift in the wind or ice hopefully without breaking.

[bobbo]

Holy Cow, what a conversation. Let me add my 2 cents, and the reasons why I have 2 cents to add.

DO NOT bond your neutral to a down-guy or the anchor rod. A down-guy should be isolated from everything. It should have a head/body/and tail. The head is usually the fiber or glass rod at the top, the body is between the rod and the insulator near the ground which creates the tail. The guy should have the bottom 8 feet isolated to protect the people on the ground in case the guy breaks and makes contact with a live source. The people on the ground are supposed to be protected. Us lineman on the pole don't need protection from a guy because the guy should be isolated and we should know what we're doing.
If you bond the guy to your system neutral with no isolation points in the guy wire, you'll be turning your anchor rod into a ground rod. If you've ever pulled an old ground rod out while replacing a pole, you'll notice it's usually much shorter and now comes to a sharp point. That's the result of overvoltage going to earth at that point through the neutral and ground system. That's what a ground rod is supposed to do. If you ground your guy, the anchor rod will burn off from the anchor the same way. One of these days, and with any strain on it all, it will pull out of the ground and you lose your down-guy.
Let your guy and anchor be an anchor. Don't try to have them be a ground rod too.

The neutral is supposed to be grounded as often as you can. Your system is only as good as your neutral. Neutrals should be grounded every 600 feet and at every equipment pole. More often if you can. That's why most Wye systems are called "multi-grounded wye". Install a ground rod (meggered to less than 25 ohms) with minimum #6 copper and attach it to the neutral at every other pole if you can. While your at it, CLAMP the neutral directly to the pole. The objective is to GROUND the neutral, not insulate it from a ground potential. Those of you who do insulate the neutral on a spool will dead end it directly to the pole in the next span!! (and maybe even ground it to the down-guy and anchor rod?) That doesn't make any sense. I know it's a "current carrying conductor", but it's at ground potential and it's designed to be at ground potential, and we should do all we can to keep it at ground potential.
Those companies that clamp their neutrals to the pole don't do it so the linemen can use it as a pole bracket for equi-potential grounding either. They do it so their neutral is grounded as well as it can be 100% of the time. As a result of that good ground source, a lineman can use it for equi-potential grounding the 1% of the time he may be out there. At times, the pole can be a better ground than the #6 wire running down it. Team them together for a better ground. The more a neutral is grounded, and the better the grounds are, the safer your neutral will be and it will serve your system better.
Why insulate a neutral from the pole and then attach a down-ground wire to it that's stapled to the pole all the way down to the ground? What was the thinking behind that? Doesn't that make the insulator kind of useless?

Make your down-guys a down-guy and not a ground rod, but, ground your neutrals every chance you get. You're system will be better off for it!!

i think it's stupid but no one is in control. None of us. We build to the spec and that's what we have to do. Screw the lineman working and the public, some nuts for brains thinks stupid and passes it off as smart. That's how the world works man. Use to give a ****. I gave up. You can't argue against stupid when they sound smart. That's why they mandate rubber gloves and sleeves on dead tested and grounded circuit. We can do stupid all we want because everybody is rubber. No balls against stupid. Nobody fights and thinks anymore, they went to a 6 month lineman college, get a ticket and stab backs of anybody in there way. It's the new line work. And I just feed my family!

[lewy]

copperlineman; I don't know where you work but we cannot build by the specs you are calling for. RUS and the NESC require all grounds exposed to the public to be bonded together. I have personally measured 48 V DC between an non-bonded anchor/guy wire and the pole ground near a railroad track. Have also found 20 V AC on a non-bonded guy wire compared to the pole. So we put a insulator in the guy to get the bare metal below the neutral and then bond the guy to the neutral below the neutral. As for using an insulator on the neutral even though it is bonded that's to stop AM radio noise. If you have a heavy loaded neutral and it can move across the downground it will make interference, whereas an insulator and a bond wire makes an electrical solid connection while allowing the wire to shift in the wind or ice hopefully without breaking.

This is all we use as well as most of the province and we have none of the radio noise you talk about. This picture is 3/0 AA tensioned with 266 secondary lashed. Our main feeders would be 336 ACSR tensioned neutral and again with out the radio noise.

[bobbo]

This is all we use as well as most of the province and we have none of the radio noise you talk about. This picture is 3/0 AA tensioned with 266 secondary lashed. Our main feeders would be 336 ACSR tensioned neutral and again with out the radio noise.

this was a late 80s 90s video of how the cannucks equipotential. They didn't have pole bands yet, they bonded to the bolt on the Hubbard clamp, which translates to a heavy wide piece of hardware to hold lashed cable or super heavy telephone. It was 3 to 4 inches wide with a big heavy washer in the back, 3 to 4 inches wide. That's what held their neutral. So there was a lot of surface to equipotential the structure. So if something happened and a guy was on a pole, he would be fine. If you don't understand equipotential, the wire, the man, and the structure are the same potential. I think it would be a waste of time for truck accessible. And it would be a waste of time if your companies require rubber gloves and sleeves from ground to ground, lock to lock or whatever overpaid ****bird safety "engineer" jargon they can sputter and utter. The pole band is built and engineered for the amperage and is a better option. But the original idea by the cannucks was pretty smart!

[lewy]

this was a late 80s 90s video of how the cannucks equipotential. They didn't have pole bands yet, they bonded to the bolt on the Hubbard clamp, which translates to a heavy wide piece of hardware to hold lashed cable or super heavy telephone. It was 3 to 4 inches wide with a big heavy washer in the back, 3 to 4 inches wide. That's what held their neutral. So there was a lot of surface to equipotential the structure. So if something happened and a guy was on a pole, he would be fine. If you don't understand equipotential, the wire, the man, and the structure are the same potential. I think it would be a waste of time for truck accessible. And it would be a waste of time if your companies require rubber gloves and sleeves from ground to ground, lock to lock or whatever overpaid ****bird safety "engineer" jargon they can sputter and utter. The pole band is built and engineered for the amperage and is a better option. But the original idea by the cannucks was pretty smart!

We have to use the band when grounding the line. In my opinion the Hubbard clamp does a better job of bonding the pole, the band is for the safety man and the Hubbard is for me. The clamp is not meant to be carrying the fault current, the neutral takes care of that.

[bobbo]

This is all we use as well as most of the province and we have none of the radio noise you talk about. This picture is 3/0 AA tensioned with 266 secondary lashed. Our main feeders would be 336 ACSR tensioned neutral and again with out the radio noise.

Every time I mess with those boxes on the hot legs no one staggers them, they are clumped altogether.' They always come open an inch away from bare neutral because no one makes sure they click or lock them in. I don't know why we use those hot blocks like in Chicago. Throw a kid that rides a short yellow school bus in a bucket and he could put those hot blocks energized without a fire. They are like secondary blocks in underground transformers all covered. And get away from the dumbass squeeze ons. Stupid. Squeeze ons on open wire is so retarded. Mechanicals you just clean up, no extending. Then you extend with with no press sleeves but automatics. Your wire has less amp capacity. And your squeeze on has more. Then you have to come an inch from the neutral or hot to get your big quarter inch of loss. And if you look at your automatics cut marks they are all different. So if you get one from Tijuana and your use to the autos from siu siu province china. You'll end up with a different loss. Stupid. Someone from Chicago picture those hot boxes! Awesome idea -about 15 years ago!

[thrasher]

Lewy from what I see of the bracket in your photo that wire is not going to move thru that bracket. Where I'm talking about radio noise is when the bare neutral is strung thru a clevis around a slight angle and the wire can shift. For what you are doing; your right that shouldn't make radio noise.

[rob8210]

Hey Bobbo, the hot blocks you are talking about , are they a multi-tap block? ( Burndy makes a nifty 4 point) I gotta agree with you. Today we really aren't allowed to think about the way we build line any more , just do what the spec book says. I have seen quite a few specs that really are a hard way to build , especially for the next guy. The same applies to the ground to ground rules, do as your told , doesn't matter if it makes sense. I keep running in to under trained , can'y cut it lineman that became safety men. They learned just enough to be dangerous, to the real lineman that work it everyday. Some times its the lawyers. The one safety man I recall, made me wear rubber gloves on a dead and grounded, double circuit dead end pole where I was building a new feeder riser. His reason was there was a 115kv line on the far side of the right of way, 100 feet away, my grounds where 10 feet away. Induction , he says, but ran away when I wanted to question him about it!

[bobbo]

Hey Bobbo, the hot blocks you are talking about , are they a multi-tap block? ( Burndy makes a nifty 4 point) I gotta agree with you. Today we really aren't allowed to think about the way we build line any more , just do what the spec book says. I have seen quite a few specs that really are a hard way to build , especially for the next guy. The same applies to the ground to ground rules, do as your told , doesn't matter if it makes sense. I keep running in to under trained , can'y cut it lineman that became safety men. They learned just enough to be dangerous, to the real lineman that work it everyday. Some times its the lawyers. The one safety man I recall, made me wear rubber gloves on a dead and grounded, double circuit dead end pole where I was building a new feeder riser. His reason was there was a 115kv line on the far side of the right of way, 100 feet away, my grounds where 10 feet away. Induction , he says, but ran away when I wanted to question him about it!

If someone can pic those hot boxes they are the way to go. Rob I know the dumbs hit. Wear a safety vest and fr in the middle of a bean field with no wire and structures sorting steel. I have no clue where they get these guys. The real lineman left me alone as far as safety guys. Theses new ****heads go to a community college, left hand state, get a associates degree in safety engineering and they yearn to be a cop. No people skills. No knowledge. Just ****. I just work mom and pop. Get a dispatch sign my w4 and go to work. If they praise themselves on over 1000 employees I just find another place. Like rusty old diggers and buckets and make real friends.i root for the little guy, the small employer and the locals that support them. The politics of these big outfits get me . I will take home less and be happy. I will take home less and the end of my life I won't sit in purgatory and contemplate on screwing people and being a **** to survive in those ****holes. They have to live with themselves. Die. And spend eternity in some place very hot and lonely on some stupid task of taking corn out of shot. And contemplating for all of eternity of how many people they screwed, because there isn't a decent bone in their body. They sold themselves on houses they can't afford, toys they can't afford, and wives that get fat and ugly quick. So they have to play the game. I don't!