couple OSHA questions for ya

[in the bucket]

I work as a lineman for a small municipal electrical utility. Let's call it Maybury. Well, the world around Maybury evolved, and this little electric utility did not. I am the newest guy here, I am a master electrician who was self employed for most of my 30 year career in industrial work. I am not new to line work, and I am proficient in the maintenance of our 4 kv distro. Modern safety is a bit lacking here, there was no incident, but we are under a voluntary osha audit. You have to read between the lines here, this is a good thing.

1) The two man rule on working live primary. One single bucket is ok as long as there is a second qualified lineman on the ground. The lineman on the ground needs to be current in pole top rescue, bucket rescue and CPR correct? If one guy is an apprentice he can be either in the air or on the ground?

2) Do all lineman have to be certified in pole top rescue even if they exclusively work out of a bucket? I am guessing yes on this.

3) When are you guys using an observer? We are limited to replacing poles, pole transfers, replacing cutouts, transformers and arrestors, cross arms etc. We are not involved in too much construction. 90% of our overhead is single conductors on cross arms, some hendricks feeders and all secondaries, single conductors on racks.

i anticipate some rush certification for us. We are a municipal union not IBEW and our training has to be outsourced. I was appointed as a department rep to a newly formed and desperately needed safety committee a few weeks back. This is a great place to work but badly managed right now. I hope to be a part of turning that around.

The first item on my list is to get the OSHA 10 ED&T for all of us.

I've been reading this forum for years and thank all the guys for these posts.

[US & CA Tramp]

I work as a lineman for a small municipal electrical utility. Let's call it Maybury. Well, the world around Maybury evolved, and this little electric utility did not. I am the newest guy here, I am a master electrician who was self employed for most of my 30 year career in industrial work. I am not new to line work, and I am proficient in the maintenance of our 4 kv distro. Modern safety is a bit lacking here, there was no incident, but we are under a voluntary osha audit. You have to read between the lines here, this is a good thing.

1) The two man rule on working live primary. One single bucket is ok as long as there is a second qualified lineman on the ground. The lineman on the ground needs to be current in pole top rescue, bucket rescue and CPR correct? If one guy is an apprentice he can be either in the air or on the ground?

2) Do all lineman have to be certified in pole top rescue even if they exclusively work out of a bucket? I am guessing yes on this.

3) When are you guys using an observer? We are limited to replacing poles, pole transfers, replacing cutouts, transformers and arrestors, cross arms etc. We are not involved in too much construction. 90% of our overhead is single conductors on cross arms, some hendricks feeders and all secondaries, single conductors on racks.

i anticipate some rush certification for us. We are a municipal union not IBEW and our training has to be outsourced. I was appointed as a department rep to a newly formed and desperately needed safety committee a few weeks back. This is a great place to work but badly managed right now. I hope to be a part of turning that around.

The first item on my list is to get the OSHA 10 ED&T for all of us.

I've been reading this forum for years and thank all the guys for these posts.

OSHA regs are not always that specific, but hope this helps.

#1 Who ever is put into a position of a possible rescue must be proficient in CPR, Bucket rescue, and pole top rescue no matter what their work classification is. 2nd part- the regs just say "two qualified workers" it is not specific on how much or how little training is needed, and does not say where they must be whether on the ground, on the pole, or in the bucket. Hopefully not sitting in the cab of the truck!!

#2 Yes, But if the boss wants to wave his/her magic wand over the person and then write down they are certified the letter of the law has been meet. Hopefully all utilities will do more than that!

#3 The simple answer is anytime a worker or piece of equipment approaches the minimum approach distance for the circuit being worked. Everything has some conductivity and poles can be deceiving!

The OSHA ED&T 10 hour as it is called is not mandated by OSHA. It actually came out of the DT & OSHA partnership meetings and was designed for to make it easier for contractors to know if lineman they hire on have all qualifications or if they have to train them. But all training is good training.

PM me if I can be of help.

[thrasher]

If you have a lineman that is going to exclusivly work out of a bucket for a specific job the company can get by with a truck driver that is trained in bucket rescue and CPR but doesn't have or use hooks for pole-top rescue. Note if the lineman decides something has to be climbed then he needs a lineman there who has been trained in pole-top rescue.

[bobbo]

When you ask about rules there has to be common sense to them. this work has a different situation and different scenarios everyday and people dont get that. Like a troubleman can work alone. Sure he can work alone if all his system is automated. He can work an extendo well. And knows how to pull a switch handle. And his system is updated and clean. But not if the system has tie points, or needs to be switched d in vaults, or their is crack dealers on every corner. Then no.
Grounding with a manufactured ground with a ferrule fitting is great. But if you have got the rod in two inches, and the ground has been buried and bent and strands are broken, it doesnt matter. As far as using mechanical jumpers for bypasses, definitely use a manufactured mechanical for a major feeder pushing 400 to 1000 amps. But I wouldnt worry about extending a number 4 jumper over night on a 10 kva can to move up a phase. We used to have rules of thumbs that had a lot of common sense, but those got extinct. Now we have guys that just drive around and no a tiddly wink rule which makes the work a hell of a lot harder. The eight foot stick on URD is a good example. With a four or six foot stick you were slightly above and could see the porcelain end go in the bushing. With the eight foot stick now it takes another guy right next to the bushing to line up the elbow and bushing. A rule that made it more dangerous and doesnt make any sense. It seems people are making up stuff, not thinking, and not testing how it would follow in every situation. I have yet to meet this guy named OSHA. And I have to see a politician on the right of way either. Now we have lineman in 20 kv gloves and sleeves in a bucket no less bugging street light legs with number 8 kearneys. That doesnt make sense either.
We need more common sense not more rules.

[bobbo]

They are trying to push an insulate and isolate work practice agenda. Insulate and Isolate is great if the voltages are necessary. If its above 5 kv system, especially a 19.9/34.5 yes its a good work practice. But when you are on a 4kv system and you have 15kv insulated wire already. You dont have to treat it like 19.9. Especially if most of your wire is number 6. Now you got to weigh down your neutal with guts so you can puy guts on your primary. I started with 19.9/34.5 and my lineman showed me how to cover, we had two long guts for two years transferring or clipping wire. You always protected your back on the center, and worked outside the outsides. Now I see 6 to 12 guts in the air now, no handlines, and nobody on the hooks anymore. I hope the guys that trained me never see whats going on now. Osha 10 shows pictures from all over the country. So if you are on the west coast audience thinks the east coast people are stupid and suck. And if you are on the east coast, they think west coast people stink and suck. And I guess you get OSHA10 in Missouri, there is no pictures from the middle of the country, you would think the coasts are nuts.Osha.10 is just a slideshow presentation and the information is what you should have learned in an apprenticeship: EPZ and clearances. You get a card and you can sign the books. There is no great revelation or great learning experience. It punching a checklist to work.

[US & CA Tramp]

They are trying to push an insulate and isolate work practice agenda. Insulate and Isolate is great if the voltages are necessary. If its above 5 kv system, especially a 19.9/34.5 yes its a good work practice. But when you are on a 4kv system and you have 15kv insulated wire already. You dont have to treat it like 19.9. Especially if most of your wire is number 6. Now you got to weigh down your neutal with guts so you can puy guts on your primary. I started with 19.9/34.5 and my lineman showed me how to cover, we had two long guts for two years transferring or clipping wire. You always protected your back on the center, and worked outside the outsides. Now I see 6 to 12 guts in the air now, no handlines, and nobody on the hooks anymore. I hope the guys that trained me never see whats going on now. Osha 10 shows pictures from all over the country. So if you are on the west coast audience thinks the east coast people are stupid and suck. And if you are on the east coast, they think west coast people stink and suck. And I guess you get OSHA10 in Missouri, there is no pictures from the middle of the country, you would think the coasts are nuts.Osha.10 is just a slideshow presentation and the information is what you should have learned in an apprenticeship: EPZ and clearances. You get a card and you can sign the books. There is no great revelation or great learning experience. It punching a checklist to work.

The original intention of the OSHA 10 hour was to ensure that all construction lineman have had the same safety instruction. It was designed for the different companies protection!! Journeyman Lineman will already know the safety concepts.

[bobbo]

If you read that 1926 stuff, its basically saying that if someone dies or gets hurt the company is responible. They really dont apply work practice standard. Work clearances, switching orders and all that seem to be derived from lockout tagout for plants sometimes. Then the powere company puts their policy in place. And you build on making a better safer way. Safe work practice is always a work in progress. Every circuit, pole, and situation is different. What it says in a rule book may not work tommorrow. And to apply a rule and the application will not work in this situation or that situation. Thats why safety committees for good power companies or contractors or unions should always review stuff and see if it applies well in the field. The rules in the last ten years, are not applying well in the field, bacause too,many writing rules are not lineman. The people that are safetymen are not lineman. If someone gets killed nowadays, its hush hush for a longtime, then they have the autopsy to see if he was had any dope or alchohol. Its a witch hunt to find the one killed who made the mistakes. Found out this year, that a friend died five years ago, that the mechanics filled his tank with conductive hydraulic oil. All the hoses were along his bucket were conductive. As soon as he touched the pistol grip he was dead. And the guys that were that were there and their lives changed forever still dont know that. Even though, when they talk about his death, its still his fault, "not enough cover". Though the courts said he wasn't because he was driving around hydraulic hose bus bars all over his bucket. His pistole grip was a ground rod in the phases.

[US & CA Tramp]

If you read that 1926 stuff, its basically saying that if someone dies or gets hurt the company is responible. They really dont apply work practice standard. Work clearances, switching orders and all that seem to be derived from lockout tagout for plants sometimes. Then the powere company puts their policy in place. And you build on making a better safer way. Safe work practice is always a work in progress. Every circuit, pole, and situation is different. What it says in a rule book may not work tommorrow. And to apply a rule and the application will not work in this situation or that situation. Thats why safety committees for good power companies or contractors or unions should always review stuff and see if it applies well in the field. The rules in the last ten years, are not applying well in the field, bacause too,many writing rules are not lineman. The people that are safetymen are not lineman. If someone gets killed nowadays, its hush hush for a longtime, then they have the autopsy to see if he was had any dope or alchohol. Its a witch hunt to find the one killed who made the mistakes. Found out this year, that a friend died five years ago, that the mechanics filled his tank with conductive hydraulic oil. All the hoses were along his bucket were conductive. As soon as he touched the pistol grip he was dead. And the guys that were that were there and their lives changed forever still dont know that. Even though, when they talk about his death, its still his fault, "not enough cover". Though the courts said he wasn't because he was driving around hydraulic hose bus bars all over his bucket. His pistole grip was a ground rod in the phases.

I have never read the reg saying everything is the companies fault. Unfortunately a lot of accidents are traced back to training. OSHA rules are a minimum and all companies are encouraged to adapt and upgrade the rules to fit their company specs. All accidents should be inspected and best practices reviewed to come up with an actual cause, and if that accident was investigated properly the conductive hydraulic fluid would have been exposed. I think I can safely say that any lineman/safety man with one eye and half an ass, that is involved with an investigation of this magnitude would agree.

[TommyHuber]

Bobbo, im sorry for the loss.

Having said that, I have to ask...why didn't he check his rubbers? Why would he trust a mechanic to fill his tank? Why the hell was conductive hydrolic oil on the property? Lot of factors at play.

The cover thing...I personally build a rubber tree. I was taught to cover anything you can reach, slip, or fall into. Cover doesn't take that long to put on compared to the alternative. The goal in the morning is to go home at night. 2 hoses on a multi phase situation? That is just retarded.

Im off my soap box.

OSHA is a slippery slope. I don't have much to offer other than drag up if you are that concerned about what's going on safety wise.

[bobbo]

Minimal movement and less moves is how I was trained. I learned where the non union was actually in our yard. To keep pur survival we were taught to know every move. Know everything you need to make that move. And focus on the task. I dont fit into power company logic, only construction logic. We had it beat in our heads that on the road you stay outside, and the field you stay outside. Center cover your back. My lineman were in their 60s when I was trained. Fourty year pins and they were fast and smooth. Now I see guts on the primary, but when people are finished in the primary. I have seen four guts on both sides of the pole while they are working on services. why couldnt they clear the guts while they moved in and out of the primary? You put on cover to protect yourself. Not to look like your safe for somebody driving by. I never in my life transferred a tangent on both sides of a pole, why do I have to put 2 guts on both sides to untie wire on a tangent. You got rubber gloves that give you 720000 ohms of protection, trust them. And the major rule that I see broken now is never how have cover on the phase you are working on. Now I see guys deadending with guts on the wire. Now how do you sag with guts? Cover is good its their to protect you, its your protection. Its my protection. If I am going back and forth through primary, I will leave it. But to do a simple tangent all I need is the most 2 guts. I look at a job and I will see what I need to cover and thats all I take. I will have a handline if I was wrong. But now I see people not thinking what they need to do and covering everything because they have no plan, no thought how to do the work. If a man has a total 12 guts and six blankets on one single arm pole means he has no clue or plan what he is doing. He is up there willy nilly with no clue what he is doing. And I have seen it.

[Rob]

Minimal movement and less moves is how I was trained. I learned where the non union was actually in our yard. To keep pur survival we were taught to know every move. Know everything you need to make that move. And focus on the task. I dont fit into power company logic, only construction logic. We had it beat in our heads that on the road you stay outside, and the field you stay outside. Center cover your back. My lineman were in their 60s when I was trained. Fourty year pins and they were fast and smooth. Now I see guts on the primary, but when people are finished in the primary. I have seen four guts on both sides of the pole while they are working on services. why couldnt they clear the guts while they moved in and out of the primary? You put on cover to protect yourself. Not to look like your safe for somebody driving by. I never in my life transferred a tangent on both sides of a pole, why do I have to put 2 guts on both sides to untie wire on a tangent. You got rubber gloves that give you 720000 ohms of protection, trust them. And the major rule that I see broken now is never how have cover on the phase you are working on. Now I see guys deadending with guts on the wire. Now how do you sag with guts? Cover is good its their to protect you, its your protection. Its my protection. If I am going back and forth through primary, I will leave it. But to do a simple tangent all I need is the most 2 guts. I look at a job and I will see what I need to cover and thats all I take. I will have a handline if I was wrong. But now I see people not thinking what they need to do and covering everything because they have no plan, no thought how to do the work. If a man has a total 12 guts and six blankets on one single arm pole means he has no clue or plan what he is doing. He is up there willy nilly with no clue what he is doing. And I have seen it.

That's the first time I've heard that Rubber gloves offer 720,000 ohms of protection. My gloves are rated/tested at 20KV.

[bluestreak]

There is some sad truth to some of the posts on cover up because of the short handedness of most companies linemen don't get the same kind of in depth training that a lot of us have received in the past. It now seems that the training is more about covering your butt with the safety people "making a rubber tree" than doing the job safely and minimizing exposure. The root problem " how's that for college kid double speak" is that the people that come out to inspect jobs have no practical job experience and the book they learned from says rubber is good so if a little is good than a lot is better,never mind what someone has to do to make it look pretty. Back in the 70's We were told that if you could reach it it needed cover if you couldn't reach it leave it alone. I believe OSHA even states that if you expose yourself to more danger by the act of covering up you don't have to cover just keep your distance.

[rob8210]

My thinking is along the same line as Bobbo. I was trained to cover up what you need covered to keep yourself safe. If you have a plan how to do the job you are assigned then you should also know what needs to be covered up. The amount of coverup I use depends totally on the task, sometimes 2 hose , sometimes 4 hose, it is never the same at each location. It takes knowledge and planning. I do not build rubber trees, but I will cover up second points of contact. There have been times that I have worked with 1 or 2 hoses, and other times I have installed as much as 24 hoses. The rules today require all phases to be covered and pole guard installed when setting a new pole , a double circuit 27.6kv with a double circuit rural underbuild requires a lot of rubber. I remember one day hot sticking a 44kv pole going from crossarm to armless construction, the foreman wanted 6 hard board on, 2 per phase. Once the top pin was transferred of course I would remove the board as I no longer needed it , he wanted it left. I explained that once the transfer was completed in order to remove the board from the center phase I would have to work between the 2 outside phases, now why would I want to do such a silly thing when it was not necessary? He got my point.

[splinter]

It is crazy nowdays, you can't blame your foreman because he's just protecting his butt, hate to say it but you can blame me and other old linemen like me for not standing up and telling the suits to do it yourself if you are so smart.