Two buckets in the air, two ground men when working primary?

[in the bucket]

I've been researching this on the OSHA site. Does anyone's employer send out one ground man for two buckets in the air working live primary with gloves? I'd think not. Is this specifically an OSHA violation? If so, do you know the statute? It seems to me that many utilities are sending a groundman for each guy in the air plus an observer. So two trucks equals 5 men. This would be for primary repairs, pole transfers, crossarm changes, cutout/arrestor replacement, all live work.

[in the bucket]

I seem to remember reading that one ground man couldn't give CPR to two people or something to that effect. Or perform two rescues.

[bluestreak]

Typically in Conn. we run two or three man crews, which means one or two trucks if the job is a little involved then they'll put a two and three man together.But for the most part a three man does most of the three phase shifts. We haven't had groundmen in thirty years, typical crew is a chief lineman and two journeymen or a journeyman and a high step progression lineman with the chief doing most of the ground work. Not saying it's the best way or possibly the safest just that the way it's done.

[lewy]

For us any time any one is working in the restricted zone (basically where you can touch the wire) there has to be one dedicated observer who's only job is to watch, not do ground work. We would have a second man to do ground work or the men working would have to leave the restricted zone while the 1 man does ground work.

[Trouble1]

Used to always be one guy on the ground per guy in the air, but now it has changed. Now it's one guy on the ground for two guys. The guy on the ground has to be qualified in CPR but that's it. Luckily pretty much every one on the ground is at least a journeyman. For a while a lot of the ground men were first step and aside from safety concerns, it pretty much sucked to be in the air because the guy one the ground didn't know how to tie his boots.

The union tried pretty hard to find a rule to eliminate first step lineman from being the only ones on the ground, but they were not successful in finding anything OSHA wise. So we went to one guy regardless of qualification.

Whenever I was lucky enough to have two journeymen in the air and I was on the ground, I would not do any ground work until they came down. I watched like a hawk 100% of the time. I think that's really the only work-around there is.

[Old Line Dog]

For us any time any one is working in the restricted zone (basically where you can touch the wire) there has to be one dedicated observer who's only job is to watch, not do ground work.

My post got "lost" in the reconfiguration...after the arab as$hole hacked the board. I had a comment in this thread about that.

Basically...to "Reiterate"....I CAN'T Fcuking BELIEVE a workin Linecrew needs a "dedicated observer". I could say a lot more about that...but I'd probably get banned.

I know you're in Canada Lewy....I just don't know if that Sh!t is in America. UN DMAN Believable....:nightmare:

I've been retired 6 years, so I know "stuff" has changed...but dmnait man...ONE Groundman/Apprentice, per Lineman on a Truck. Take the "Observer"...and tamp his a$$ down the next pole hole ya set.

I'm talkin contractors. Not "Family Friendly Co-op" stuff.

"Observer"....are you Fcuking Kidding me!!:(

[lewy]

We run a lot of small crews, 4 to 5 men would be a big crew for us, but minimum 2 men. The dedicated observer has to be qualified to do the work, makes no sense having a first year apprentice observing a man doing live line work. It is quite common for us to have 2 man crews doing live line work, but obviously only one in the air, about the only job we won't do with 1 man is barehand. These rules are province wide and I will put our safety record up against anybody's. You are right though we do things a little different up here, construction is mostly armless and we build clearances into our construction unlike a lot of places I have seen in the states where they build minimum clearances and jam everything at the top.

[Old Line Dog]

Lewy,

What is the purpose of the "Dedicated Observer"?

What type of jobs do you use this "person" on? WHAT is his purpose? I've never heard of anything like that.

Down here in the states...we call em "Safety men". And yes...they have been known to sit back...and watch workin Crews with Binoculars, so the crews didn't know they were around.

Then, they'd drive up and Write ya up for "safety" violations.
I could have, and would have worked 4-5 more years in the Great trade of Linework....

But, they "Safety ed" my a$$ out of the trade.
The complete...over regulation of Linework, Over safety of linework, and turning Linework into a "Clone" trade.....

Naw. It was a GREAT Ride of 40 years, and I owe Everything I have in my life to this great Trade.
Just had to know...when it was "Time to fold em".

[Lineman North Florida]

We have a qualified observer who does nothing but keep an eye on the work being performed anytime we do live line barehand transmission work, in addition to that there will be one man who will be doing nothing but watching the vonn meter and one man to do the ground work, so a total of 3 men on the ground for live line barehand transmission work, distribution work not so much, a lot of the times you will wind up with only one man on the ground and he will have to split his time between keeping an extra eye on the work that is being performed and the ground work that has to be done. Charlie.

[lewy]

Lewy,

What is the purpose of the "Dedicated Observer"?

What type of jobs do you use this "person" on? WHAT is his purpose? I've never heard of anything like that.

Down here in the states...we call em "Safety men". And yes...they have been known to sit back...and watch workin Crews with Binoculars, so the crews didn't know they were around.

Then, they'd drive up and Write ya up for "safety" violations.
I could have, and would have worked 4-5 more years in the Great trade of Linework....
But, they "Safety ed" my a$$ out of the trade.
The complete...over regulation of Linework, Over safety of linework, and turning Linework into a "Clone" trade.....

Naw. It was a GREAT Ride of 40 years, and I owe Everything I have in my life to this great Trade.
Just had to know...when it was "Time to fold em".

He is one of the crew members who is competent in the work being performed, he could be doing the work the next day and the other guy would be the dedicated observer. He is not there to rat you out, he is there to watch your back, not to do ground work.

[US & CA Tramp]

He is one of the crew members who is competent in the work being performed, he could be doing the work the next day and the other guy would be the dedicated observer. He is not there to rat you out, he is there to watch your back, not to do ground work.

OSHA has the same regulation here in the states when any mechanical equipment gets close to the minimum approach distance. Swamp just probably forgot since most contractors, especially in the south east, don't follow the rules or may not have been taught the rules. Training has always been an issue.

[Rob]

OSHA has the same regulation here in the states when any mechanical equipment gets close to the minimum approach distance. Swamp just probably forgot since most contractors, especially in the south east, don't follow the rules or may not have been taught the rules. Training has always been an issue.

I know of no rule here in the states about using an observer. We have OPC (one-person crews) that can work energized primary hot by themselves. No Groundmen or observers. And our construction crews are generally 3 men, a foreman, 2 JL's .

[Lineman North Florida]

I thought the rule stated that anything over 600 volts that you were gonna put your hands on or break minimum approach distance that you needed a 2nd man per OSHA, not nescessarily a qualified observer but a qualified 2nd man on the job site, but I am from the Southeast so I could have it fouled up.:D

[Pootnaigle]

Ummm it wuznt a rule at the utility but on the construction side there hadda be 2 journeymen in the bucket to work any primary volltage n I bleve that wuzza rule frum the union local

[in the bucket]

I know of no rule here in the states about using an observer. We have OPC (one-person crews) that can work energized primary hot by themselves. No Groundmen or observers. And our construction crews are generally 3 men, a foreman, 2 JL's .

A trouble man or OPC as you call it is very limited in what he can do with out a second man. Routine switching, changing fuses and live line tools if there is no chance of contact.

Is your 3 man construction crew in two bucket trucks or one double bucket?

[in the bucket]

Lewy,

What is the purpose of the "Dedicated Observer"?

What type of jobs do you use this "person" on? WHAT is his purpose? I've never heard of anything like that.

Down here in the states...we call em "Safety men". And yes...they have been known to sit back...and watch workin Crews with Binoculars, so the crews didn't know they were around.

Then, they'd drive up and Write ya up for "safety" violations.
I could have, and would have worked 4-5 more years in the Great trade of Linework....

But, they "Safety ed" my a$$ out of the trade.
The complete...over regulation of Linework, Over safety of linework, and turning Linework into a "Clone" trade.....

Naw. It was a GREAT Ride of 40 years, and I owe Everything I have in my life to this great Trade.
Just had to know...when it was "Time to fold em".

OSHA speaks of a dedicated observer being required for critical tasks or something to that effect and doesn't really define what a critical task is.

[bobbo]

He is one of the crew members who is competent in the work being performed, he could be doing the work the next day and the other guy would be the dedicated observer. He is not there to rat you out, he is there to watch your back, not to do ground work.

Depends on the task at hand. Situation at hand. If something happens what do you do? Call 911 and rescue. If you have a dedicated observer doing nothing, you have to pay for him on the crew, doing nothing.? Thats construction logic. But I notice we have a lot more dedicated observers than JLs. I think the hall should make a new classification.

[US & CA Tramp]

I know of no rule here in the states about using an observer. We have OPC (one-person crews) that can work energized primary hot by themselves. No Groundmen or observers. And our construction crews are generally 3 men, a foreman, 2 JL's .

I hate to make it this long winded but here you go!!

1910.269(l)(1)(i)
Except as provided in paragraph (l)(1)(ii) of this section, at least two employees shall be present while the following types of work are being performed:
1910.269(l)(1)(i)(A)
Installation, removal, or repair of lines that are energized at more than 600 volts,
1910.269(l)(1)(i)(B)
Installation, removal, or repair of deenergized lines if an employee is exposed to contact with other parts energized at more than 600 volts,
1910.269(l)(1)(i)(C)
Installation, removal, or repair of equipment, such as transformers, capacitors, and regulators, if an employee is exposed to contact with parts energized at more than 600 volts,
1910.269(l)(1)(i)(D)
Work involving the use of mechanical equipment, other than insulated aerial lifts, near parts energized at more than 600 volts, and
1910.269(l)(1)(i)(E)
Other work that exposes an employee to electrical hazards greater than or equal to those posed by operations that are specifica

1910.269(l)(1)(ii)
Paragraph (l)(1)(i) of this section does not apply to the following operations:
1910.269(l)(1)(ii)(A)
Routine switching of circuits, if the employer can demonstrate that conditions at the site allow this work to be performed safely,
1910.269(l)(1)(ii)(B)
Work performed with live-line tools if the employee is positioned so that he or she is neither within reach of nor otherwise exposed to contact with energized parts, and
1910.269(l)(1)(ii)(C)
Emergency repairs to the extent necessary to safeguard the general public.


1910.269(p)(4)
"Operations near energized lines or equipment."
1910.269(p)(4)(i)
Mechanical equipment shall be operated so that the minimum approach distances of Table R-6 through Table R-10 are maintained from exposed energized lines and equipment. However, the insulated portion of an aerial lift operated by a qualified employee in the lift is exempt from this requirement.
1910.269(p)(4)(ii)
A designated employee other than the equipment operator shall observe the approach distance to exposed lines and equipment and give timely warnings before the minimum approach distance required by paragraph (p)(4)(i) is reached, unless the employer can demonstrate that the operator can accurately determine that the minimum approach distance is being maintained.
1910.269(p)(4)(iii)
If, during operation of the mechanical equipment, the equipment could become energized, the operation shall also comply with at least one of paragraphs (p)(4)(iii)(A) through (p)(4)(iii)(C) of this section.
1910.269(p)(4)(iii)(A)
The energized lines exposed to contact shall be covered with insulating protective material that will withstand the type of contact that might be made during the operation.
1910.269(p)(4)(iii)(B)
The equipment shall be insulated for the voltage involved. The equipment shall be positioned so that its uninsulated portions cannot approach the lines or equipment any closer than the minimum approach distances specified in Table R-6 through Table R-10.
1910.269(p)(4)(iii)(C)
Each employee shall be protected from hazards that might arise from equipment contact with the energized lines. The measures used shall ensure that employees will not be exposed to hazardous differences in potential. Unless the employer can demonstrate that the methods in use protect each employee from the hazards that might arise if the equipment contacts the energized line, the measures used shall include all of the following techniques:

[Trouble1]

The only problem with that rule is that it leaves a grey area for companies to interpret what is an emergency.

1910.269(l)(1)(ii)(C)
Emergency repairs to the extent necessary to safeguard the general public.

The way the companies see it, everything is an emergency and people not having power could lead to them getting hurt. It's like if I threw a banana out the window and a car slips on it and then crashes into the presidents motorcade while he's carrying nuclear launch codes and his finger slips and the world blows up. That's how they think losing power some how leads to the possibility of someone dying. Pretty stupid obviously.

And you can hot stick by yourself by the OSHA rules. Not an advocate for working alone, but companies will interpret rules to have less guys which leads to spending less money.

[Rob]

The OPC is a serviceman that generally do emergency type repairs.UG Primary switching is done w/ 2 men.

In the Bucket.. To answer your question, We use single buckets.

[bobbo]

Lewy,

What is the purpose of the "Dedicated Observer"?

What type of jobs do you use this "person" on? WHAT is his purpose? I've never heard of anything like that.

Down here in the states...we call em "Safety men". And yes...they have been known to sit back...and watch workin Crews with Binoculars, so the crews didn't know they were around.

Then, they'd drive up and Write ya up for "safety" violations.
I could have, and would have worked 4-5 more years in the Great trade of Linework....

But, they "Safety ed" my a$$ out of the trade.
The complete...over regulation of Linework, Over safety of linework, and turning Linework into a "Clone" trade.....

Naw. It was a GREAT Ride of 40 years, and I owe Everything I have in my life to this great Trade.
Just had to know...when it was "Time to fold em".

I cant handle it anymore. I could work and get things done, before I had all these bird dogging no good overhead (profit margin) sucks have any good input. If you dont like the work, find something else to do instead of safety and management. The best safety men are missing arms and burned up like freddy kruegger. They would look at the companies responsibility. Dedicated observer who isnt getting **** ready should dedicate his ass down the road. Do we have enough bird dogging people who just add cost and headaches to the people who know how to do something. There is more unproductive cost everywhere and safety is the biggest item. When I started we had non reclose before we started work, called in or we went to the sub ourselves. Now it takes an act of God! And we got more Safety guys than we know what to do with. If they are so safe, every why are they pestering about cones and chock bocks and get these **** reclosers on one shot! This trade is not safer than it was 20 years ago, you can shove OSHA down my throat, that term unsafe is an overused term in my book. You can go to another state and they are candycaning 60s with a capstan off a cut and kicked pole between four buildings. And then you go to another place who never used a capstan and doesnt know what a candy cane is, or a cut and kick. So if you dont know dowes that mean its unsafe?

[lewy]

Depends on the task at hand. Situation at hand. If something happens what do you do? Call 911 and rescue. If you have a dedicated observer doing nothing, you have to pay for him on the crew, doing nothing.? Thats construction logic. But I notice we have a lot more dedicated observers than JLs. I think the hall should make a new classification.

He is not doing nothing he is watching the men in the restricted zone. He is there to watch their back so that nothing happens, if they are not in the restricted zone he is aloud to do other work. I really don't understand where the problem is with having a dedicated crew member watching your back and it is not always the same guy and we are not paying him the company is.

[Lineman North Florida]

He is not doing nothing he is watching the men in the restricted zone. He is there to watch their back so that nothing happens, if they are not in the restricted zone he is aloud to do other work. I really don't understand where the problem is with having a dedicated crew member watching your back and it is not always the same guy and we are not paying him the company is. It used to be called a foreman watching his crew work and giving advice when needed, ocasionally a foreman might have several young lineman that he needs to help keep an eye on, some are just not born lineman and need a little help, Lewy there's nothing wrong with you following your company's policy. I always appreciated someone looking out for me, just in case, I've seen some of the best come close to screwing up if someone hadn't hollered at em". Charlie.

[rob8210]

Most every crew I have worked on the foreman or subforeman would act as a designated observer. This observer is required when you are in the limits of approach. If he should have to do some task on the ground all he has to do is ask you to move outside the safe limits for a few minutes. Also , Ministry of Labor requires a groundman/observer for every bucket in the air. Two buckets = two groundmen/observers. We usually have at least a 5 man crew, 2 buckets, an rbd, a small dump truck , and a pickup. We are contractors too. The smallest crew was the pole change crew, 4 men ,1 bucket, 1 rbd, 1 small dump truck, and 1 pickup.