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willie3179
12-26-2013, 10:45 PM
Would you guys work a three phase main line from the wood moving pases without a oneshot on the line?

bluestreak
12-27-2013, 12:30 AM
Need a little more info 4.8 kv delta unless special issues like broken/rotted pole/arms probably not, 13.2 kv wye and up all the time at least that's the way I've seen it done it for forty years. Now with arc flash rules all the time when moving wires.

loodvig
12-27-2013, 08:02 AM
Never glove without one shot and never glove over 5KV off the pole.

Lineman North Florida
12-27-2013, 08:32 AM
I have worked behind fuses on a fused lateral without the breaker being in one-shot, but all main line feeder work we would have the control center put the breaker in one-shot. All primary gloving work from the pole is done off of a Baker board where I am located these days, we don't have any 4 kv left so I can't speak for that. Out of curiousity who want's you to do it without the feeder in one-shot, the company or a straw boss?

lewy
12-27-2013, 10:49 AM
We would have it on single shot wether it was 1 2 or 3 phases on the pole. Not sure why it matters how many phases.

Rob
12-27-2013, 11:57 AM
We would have it on single shot wether it was 1 2 or 3 phases on the pole. Not sure why it matters how many phases.


Because many utilities would not set the recloser to one shot on something that was fused. The original question referred to Main Line

lewy
12-27-2013, 12:17 PM
For us anytime we are working live line we have a hold off but, if you are aloud to rely on fuse protection so be it. If you are on the main line that only has the breaker for protection then yes it should be on single shot.

T-Man
12-27-2013, 03:42 PM
13.2 and above requires from a Baker board or bucket and one shot is at the discretion of the lead.

We didn't have one shot on 8320 and below. except installing a fuse to bypass a recloser.

One shot is not a safer way to operate. It just reduces the amount of times fault current is seen by the breaker. The company and engineers do not like high fault current going thru expensive breakers. We always said one shot will make the difference between an open or closed casket. one shot will kill ya the second and third shots just crisp ya up a bit.

Work safe.

Trouble1
12-27-2013, 05:30 PM
Does anybody ever check if one shot is enabled if you can? I don't know anybody that goes to the recloser and checks, everybody just takes the dispatch's word for it. I never thought that was a safe way to do things, but I never used to check either.

I was in a school with some dispatchers and they did not know what "Hot Line Tag" was. This was after I became a trouble shooter so my thought was that none of us had the protection that we requested.. at least not all the protection we could get. Probably half of our switches have the hot line tag option. There was some confusion about who set hot line tag I guess, but dispatch didn't know it was something that they could set even though they could see the option there.

I don't know if it's the same everywhere else, but I don't think dispatchers can tell what control boxes the recloser has. Any time a request for non-reclosing is done, they only set that setting unless somebody in the field tells them that hot line tag is available. It should be automatic to set it, but being that half of the control boxes don't have it, it gets overlooked.

I think it should be part of the job to open the box and check settings before you work.

Orgnizdlbr
12-27-2013, 06:27 PM
We always get a "hold off" when we put the re closure on one shot. We go to the breaker, turn the reclosure switch to the off position and turn the instantaneous switch to the on position physically doing it ourselves. We then hang our tags on the reclosure and instantaneous control. We get and repeat a written switching order to perform the task.

Orgnizdlbr
12-27-2013, 06:29 PM
To the OP, we used to glove 4kv off the pole, rule changed and any work from the pole is done from a baker board. No distinction between single and 3 phase.

Old Line Dog
12-27-2013, 10:12 PM
Touchie subject for a lot of guys on this board when I comment on it.

But yea, I use to glove 7.2kv off the pole. Single phase and 3 phase, yes, on a 1 shot. Lots of Rubber, hot arms and 20KV Gloves. Never saw a problem. That was Years ago. Don't know if the company I worked for still does it nowdays.

reppy007
12-27-2013, 10:27 PM
Talking about tags on the circuit,Ive seen many of times when a large crew has a tag and trouble crews that are sent on trouble would not shoot a fuse,mostly a urd loop if there was a 1 shot on the circuit.That was common back in the day,now it isnt as common.I know different places have different policies on this situation.

Old Line Dog
12-27-2013, 11:15 PM
Talking about tags on the circuit.

No. That is not what anybody is talking about.

"3 phase off the wood" is the thread.

Lineman North Florida
12-27-2013, 11:30 PM
No. That is not what anybody is talking about.

"3 phase off the wood" is the thread.

Re-read the OP post, he's asking about a one-shot as well.

Old Line Dog
12-28-2013, 12:21 AM
Re-read the OP post, he's asking about a one-shot as well.

Whatever man.
"Split Hairs" however you want..

When you're Glovin off the pole...that siht is on a ONE SHOT!

It's not rocket science.
At least in a "Real world" situation.

reppy007
12-28-2013, 05:55 AM
What if your gloving off the pole behind a fuse,is that a one shot....are you sure the fuse would blow if something happens?

bluestreak
12-28-2013, 06:08 AM
To add or clarify my post gloving 4.8 off the pole anything above we used sticks even after 1990 when they started gloving 23kv. never saw anyone glove higher than 4.8 off the pole even though it might have been allowed off a diving board never saw it done always sticks off a pole

T-Man
12-28-2013, 08:21 AM
At our out fit we would never close a fuse on a circuit set on one shot. The cold load current may trip the breaker and the whole circuit from the device set on one shot could drop out.

We never would set a hold off card without there being a visible open either, Hold offs and one shot is two different operations entirely.

reppy007
12-28-2013, 12:16 PM
I understand the old way of thinking and all,first the gloving off the pole part.Is it ,or was it really necessary to glove primary off the pole.You must weigh the outcome,if you took an outage,yes it might take more time and piss off a few people,on the other hand if you take a chance and your fellow lineman gets injured or killed.Wouldnt you then say to yourselves we should have killed that part of the line?On the one shot issue,I was taught that it was for equipment protection,not personal protection.If it is for personal protection,you take every measure to cover up and guard to keep anything from happening,many of times if a person is injured during that one shot,the damage is done,so theres nothing that you can do by that time.So prevention takes an important role before you think a one shot will protect you.But anyway,the question I will ask you is this....Have you ever seen another lineman get a one shot due to protecting the equipment in case something goes wrong,or as I would guess he is getting it because in his mind it will protect his crew in case something goes hay-wire?

Orgnizdlbr
12-28-2013, 12:32 PM
At our out fit we would never close a fuse on a circuit set on one shot. The cold load current may trip the breaker and the whole circuit from the device set on one shot could drop out.

We never would set a hold off card without there being a visible open either, Hold offs and one shot is two different operations entirely.

Youre right T, I should have said " hold order" at least that's what it's called on our property. Still get an order and tag the recloser when we do it.

Pootnaigle
12-28-2013, 01:17 PM
Umm and as far as gloving anything above 4 kv off the wood Ittza risky and unnecessary gamble with some purdy high stakes

T-Man
12-28-2013, 03:40 PM
Umm and as far as gloving anything above 4 kv off the wood Ittza risky and unnecessary gamble with some purdy high stakes

That's a big 10-4 Poot!

reppy007
12-28-2013, 11:05 PM
That's a big 10-4 Poot!

Ill second that big 10-4....in this business there is no forgiveness,there is no such thing as a second chance.You can be right a million times and work safe a million days,but when you make some mistakes that cause an injury or death both those millions of days and hours are wiped out.And its alot too late.A lineman who may have taken longer and pissed a few off is better than a lineman who worked unsafe and lost his co-worker due to something that could have been totally avoided.It just aint worth it.

Old Line Dog
12-29-2013, 12:54 AM
Ill second that big 10-4....in this business there is no forgiveness,there is no such thing as a second chance.You can be right a million times and work safe a million days,but when you make some mistakes that cause an injury or death both those millions of days and hours are wiped out.And its alot too late.A lineman who may have taken longer and pissed a few off is better than a lineman who worked unsafe and lost his co-worker due to something that could have been totally avoided.It just aint worth it.

As usual....your posts just amaze me. How Old are you reppy? when did you retire from Linework?

I'm 65 man. How old are you? I'm not afraid to talk about anything about myself and my time in this great trade. You seem to be.... not so inclined. Not a problem. Ya are what ya are.


Seriously. Why don't we just make a RULE, where Linemen work NOTHING HOT.

Well...maby Secondary..but NO! That too can Kill a Lineman. And has killed MANY!!

I ain't bein funny, really. The true trade of Linework is dead.

Why not just tell the "Public" Right up Front.."Sorry.
For the safety of the crews working on the powerlines that supply power to your home, we must cut your power off for maintenance.
We will restore your power as soon as possible." That way...the Line trade could hire...basically ANYBODY to do linework! It ain't nothing special. Siht...nobody climbs any more anyway!!

I mean REALLY. The "Trade" of Linework...is dead.

It's all just a "Safety Game", of guys digging holes, settin poles, stringin dead powerlines...and...ONCE in awhile...putting their Life on the line...and actually workin..."LIVE Line".

I certainly understand...as a 65 year old retired Lineman...how the trade has "Turned for the better".

Just glad I ain't in it anymore. "Progress"...For the Better....:p

Lineman North Florida
12-29-2013, 07:36 AM
As usual....your posts just amaze me. How Old are you reppy? when did you retire from Linework?

I'm 65 man. How old are you? I'm not afraid to talk about anything about myself and my time in this great trade. You seem to be.... not so inclined. Not a problem. Ya are what ya are.


Seriously. Why don't we just make a RULE, where Linemen work NOTHING HOT.

Well...maby Secondary..but NO! That too can Kill a Lineman. And has killed MANY!!

I ain't bein funny, really. The true trade of Linework is dead.

Why not just tell the "Public" Right up Front.."Sorry.
For the safety of the crews working on the powerlines that supply power to your home, we must cut your power off for maintenance.
We will restore your power as soon as possible." That way...the Line trade could hire...basically ANYBODY to do linework! It ain't nothing special. Siht...nobody climbs any more anyway!!

I mean REALLY. The "Trade" of Linework...is dead.

It's all just a "Safety Game", of guys digging holes, settin poles, stringin dead powerlines...and...ONCE in awhile...putting their Life on the line...and actually workin..."LIVE Line".

I certainly understand...as a 65 year old retired Lineman...how the trade has "Turned for the better".

Just glad I ain't in it anymore. "Progress"...For the Better....:p

Where I'm at we still do daily hotwork, if it's needed to be done in the rear lot we might use a 1 man rear lot alley rig with a pin on bucket or we will do it off of a Baker board, irregardless it's still done daily. When I started working years ago I worked for a man who expected us to glove off of the pole when necessary after all he had done it, when I got moved to another crew a few years later it was a no-no, I asked why, the foreman gave me the simple explanation that gloving off the pole provides you with only one layer of protection, just one, working off of a Baker board along with your rubber gloves gives you two layers of protection , the same with working out of a bucket, two layers of protection and he went on to explain that I was putting all my eggs in one basket by doing what I had been doing, I never forgot that talk. So I know full well it can be done, but should it be done with only 1 layer of protection when it can be done with 2, upping your odds if you would, not trying to change your mind, just a little insight on why this part of the trade has changed in most places.

Orgnizdlbr
12-29-2013, 08:48 AM
"back in the day" where I'm at 4kv was worked off the pole all of the time. The infrastructure was built for loads of the 50s and was becoming outdated for the ever increasing loads which increased exponentially. 15 kv was quickly becoming the norm, along with 34.5 kv distribution. These voltages were sticked off the pole, they weren't "direct handle" from the wood. We all know that sticking is more labor intensive and takes longer than gloving..... The company wanted more production.

The company proposed a method of direct handling these higher voltages and subsequent discussions resulted is an agreement called the " I&I concept or Isolate & Insulate. Rules developed JOINTLY by both parties taking work practices used across the country meant that handling at those voltages would be done either from a board or an insulated bucket. That concept was developed over 40 years ago, I broke in when the concept was in its infancy.

You work to the rules that your employer/contractor set forth. You don't change the rules to suit yourself. Working to those rules doesn't make you any less of a lineman than the next guy, doesn't make you any more of a lineman either. I've spoke to lineman from all over the country over the years, work practices are pretty consistent as I see it. Many rules were developed to address particular incidents that occurred on particular properties. Saying that a work method or practice that is employed on a particular property has killed linework ain't right.

rob8210
12-29-2013, 09:05 AM
As explained to me many years ago when I started in the trade, a holdoff, or a recloser block , or one shot , or whatever you want to call it, is for equipment protection only! On normal operation the first trip of a breaker is set to allow a fuse to open and clear a problem, then it recloses, if the problem does not clear the recloser goes through the rest of its operations until it clears or the recloser opens. So, as explained to me a recloser operates faster than a fuse. You fellas that have been told one shot is safer for you, well , like someone said earlier, it can be the difference between a closed coffin and an open one.

As for gloving off the pole , WHY? Seeing that it is 2013 , we have lots of equipment to work with, bucket trucks, insulated platforms, switches that can be used to isolate a job, so why would anyone rubber glove any high voltage off the pole when it can be done another way, safely? Heck even take an outage , a couple of hours of no power isn't going to kill any customer, but working live off the pole could very easily kill a good lineman. Its just not necessary to work live primary off the pole wearing only rubber gloves.

Have I done it in the past, sure! Do I know someone that got killed gloving off the pole? Yep. It was single phase too! Rear lot in a subdivision, no less. The companies policy was no power off. Was it necessary? No Way! All it did was get a good lineman killed, and a family lost a husband , and 4 kids lost a dad, and for what? The sake of keeping a few meters turning in houses that were probably empty because the occupants had gone to work!

Would you rubber glove off a pole in a storm ( emergency)? I wouldn't, and I have good training and skills. I work live line every day, and have for over 20 years. Would you go up in a bucket and leather glove live line , when your rubber gloves are right beside you? Why? Who are you trying to impress? Is your life worth the risk? Mine isn't. I am proud to say I am a good lineman, and I am not too proud to say lets kill it if it is unsafe to do alive!!!

reppy007
12-29-2013, 09:23 AM
:D Swamp,Im not saying that it cant be done safely.hell Ive done it,with 12kv....was it a good decision,well Mr.rAT ....not really....I saved 15 minutes maybe.When gloving from a pole its usually for short periods of time,mine was transferring primary from the old pole to the new pole,when doing this your usually using both hands wearing rubber gloves in case you didnt know.......so now your on that pole with two legs and you need to be balanced,it helps anyway.All Im saying is that if you have many of guys doing this that there will be a slip or two,that could result in a death in this trade.Now calm down because your day is over and no need to worry about it anymore.Let the new guys decide how they want to work it,Im sure they will make the right choice,just look at the squeeze and all :D.....have a nice day swamp.....and a nice new year.

Pootnaigle
12-29-2013, 09:37 AM
Umm The trade aint dead but maybe good sense iz

Lineman North Florida
12-29-2013, 10:36 AM
As explained to me many years ago when I started in the trade, a holdoff, or a recloser block , or one shot , or whatever you want to call it, is for equipment protection only! On normal operation the first trip of a breaker is set to allow a fuse to open and clear a problem, then it recloses, if the problem does not clear the recloser goes through the rest of its operations until it clears or the recloser opens. So, as explained to me a recloser operates faster than a fuse. You fellas that have been told one shot is safer for you, well , like someone said earlier, it can be the difference between a closed coffin and an open one.

As for gloving off the pole , WHY? Seeing that it is 2013 , we have lots of equipment to work with, bucket trucks, insulated platforms, switches that can be used to isolate a job, so why would anyone rubber glove any high voltage off the pole when it can be done another way, safely? Heck even take an outage , a couple of hours of no power isn't going to kill any customer, but working live off the pole could very easily kill a good lineman. Its just not necessary to work live primary off the pole wearing only rubber gloves.

Have I done it in the past, sure! Do I know someone that got killed gloving off the pole? Yep. It was single phase too! Rear lot in a subdivision, no less. The companies policy was no power off. Was it necessary? No Way! All it did was get a good lineman killed, and a family lost a husband , and 4 kids lost a dad, and for what? The sake of keeping a few meters turning in houses that were probably empty because the occupants had gone to work!

Would you rubber glove off a pole in a storm ( emergency)? I wouldn't, and I have good training and skills. I work live line every day, and have for over 20 years. Would you go up in a bucket and leather glove live line , when your rubber gloves are right beside you? Why? Who are you trying to impress? Is your life worth the risk? Mine isn't. I am proud to say I am a good lineman, and I am not too proud to say lets kill it if it is unsafe to do alive!!!

While I agree that getting the re-closures off of a circuit is for equipment protection, I've been in 2 different situations over the years where I was very proud that there weren't 2 more blast's, so no matter what the company preaches I'll get "em" off and figure it could be beneficial for me as well.

Pootnaigle
12-29-2013, 11:56 AM
Umm and shame on anybody that would even suggest to a youngster that glovin12kv off the wood is or ever has been an ok thang

reppy007
12-29-2013, 12:17 PM
Lets say you happen to be in a safety meeting the next day after a lineman chose to work primary off the pole with or without a 1-shot.The lineman is now in intensive care and its not looking good for the guy,in other words ,he's not going to make it.Also outside of the door at the hospital is his young wife with 3 small children,his parents are on the way to the hospital.Back to the safety meeting......what are the first comments going to be?Somewhere its going to be asked if there was a better and safer way to get the job done.Not too many lineman in that room will argue with the fact that there was a better way.Next as the meeting is going on the safety rep gets a text message and informs the lineman sitting in the room that the hurt lineman has passed away......So now it gets quiet and funeral arrangements will have to be made......so it has to be asked....For What?

bluestreak
12-29-2013, 12:35 PM
I might be mistaken but I believe that when arc flash became important to companies because of OSHA rules a few {I believe it was eight} years ago one shot suddenly became for worker protection no longer equipment protection {at least not in the first sentence}. Not that I would promote it but I did see guy have a brain fart and swung the hot side of a ground and hit a live conductor that was on one shot and there was hardly a spit {the recloser operated in miliseconds}.

Pootnaigle
12-29-2013, 03:12 PM
Umm n once again thats totally dependant on the quality of the relaying and finess of the relay people

Old Line Dog
12-29-2013, 10:14 PM
Umm n once again thats totally dependant on the quality of the relaying and finess of the relay people

You must have been a "Hoot" to work with! Always sayin "What It" about every fcukin thing!!:D Ever get any work done poot?

Sounds like it took ya 4 hours to "Check all the safety siht"!:p:cool: Just pullin your chain man....

Don't get your rubber pants in a wad.:D

rob8210
12-30-2013, 07:03 AM
Poot is totally correct , if the relays are not set up correctly , then they will not operate correctly, then they are useless! You are correct to LNF , even though holdoffs are for equipment protection we always get a holdoff, and most companies here require you to have one to. As somebody said earlier , it is the difference between an open casket and a closed casket! As for you Swamp, I would never ever want to work with a fella like you, while getting work done is a priority, safety is number 1, production is number 2. Don't kid yourself , I am very big on production. I work for a contractor and have , for a long time, they don't stay in business very long if there is no production. In fact , the last time I ran a crew, I did pole change program, funny thing was we did everything safely and still were the best producing crew, by profit margin!! We didn't work all that hard too, an average of 1 complete pole change a day. Oh yeah , and we had a few small jobs that were not even worth going to, we did them anyway because they were part of the package, you see I don't pick and choose my jobs, I do everything given to me , I do it right , safe and on time!!!!! Not like some contractors you will shortcut jobs in the name of trying to make more money!

Pootnaigle
12-30-2013, 09:15 AM
Umm what Rob said

lewy
12-30-2013, 10:10 AM
I personally would never work live line with out a hold off and any time I am in proximity or even switching I get a hold off. Hold offs are more for equipment protection then they are for our protection, if you go phase to ground or phase to phase the breaker might not even open depending how far you are from the station, it would just see you as extra load. Where the hold off is nice is if you would accidently create a flash.

reppy007
12-30-2013, 11:45 AM
Would you guys work a three phase main line from the wood moving pases without a oneshot on the line?

This is kind of sounding like you recently have seen this done,,just one question Id have to ask......does this happen often and if I may ask another question,is it with a contractor or with a utility?If it is with a contractor can you give us the first letter of that name.....If it happens to be a (P) I would be running for my life while I still have it.

Old Line Dog
12-31-2013, 12:16 AM
Poot is totally correct , if the relays are not set up correctly , then they will not operate correctly, then they are useless!

NO Siht!!:p
You gonna have them come out and "Test" the Relays, before ya put the circuit on 1 shot? I mean REALLY man! Ya can't be TOO SAFE!!

Ya really need to make sure the Relay techs have done their job correctly, before you put that circuit on a 1 shot.

Bring out a relay crew and make sure the settings are Correct.:p

bluestreak
12-31-2013, 06:23 AM
There was a time when reclosers worked like they should and dispatchers knew everything by heart and electricians/switchmen did their jobs without mistake but those apear to be things of the past. Never had a doubt that Kyle oil filled recloser was open or closed like it should be, then came Siemens vacuum operated {cheaper and no mainanance means less electricians} and all of a sudden your not sure anymore and the co wants you to take amp readings to make sure it's operating like it's supposed to. Hell the dispatch center made a big thing last month that they did'nt have a switching error in the past year! This industry really heading in the crapper quick.

rob8210
12-31-2013, 07:16 AM
Well Swamp , all the old fellas that trained me said the same thing, trust nothing and trust nobody, do what you have to do to take care of yourself . By the way them operator gods think they never make mistakes! But somehow some dumb lineman catch them , now and then.

Rob
12-31-2013, 12:19 PM
While I agree that getting the re-closures off of a circuit is for equipment protection, I've been in 2 different situations over the years where I was very proud that there weren't 2 more blast's, so no matter what the company preaches I'll get "em" off and figure it could be beneficial for me as well.

If you've ever been in a manhole with multiple circuits and one fails and the reclosure isn't off... You'll be wishing it was!
Sorry... I know the conversation was about working primary off the pole. Didn't mean to start a whole other thread.

Old Line Dog
01-01-2014, 12:06 AM
If you've ever been in a manhole with multiple circuits and one fails and the reclosure isn't off... You'll be wishing it was!
Sorry... I know the conversation was about working primary off the pole. Didn't mean to start a whole other thread.

Ya know Rob...that is something I have never done in my life in Linework. Work in a Manhole.

A one shot takes a completely different meaning in a situation like that. I can't even comment...other than saying....I can't comment.

1 more hour. "Happy New Year" man!! Good health and happiness, to you and yours...in 2014.

God bless us one and all.:cool:

Rob
01-02-2014, 09:24 AM
Ya know Rob...that is something I have never done in my life in Linework. Work in a Manhole.

A one shot takes a completely different meaning in a situation like that. I can't even comment...other than saying....I can't comment.

1 more hour. "Happy New Year" man!! Good health and happiness, to you and yours...in 2014.

God bless us one and all.:cool:

You too! Happy New Year