One Nation Under God?

[CenterPointEX]

More people has died at the hands of your G0DDAMNED JESUS FREAKS THAN BY HITLER. You keep your religion out and seperate from our government. I think there is as many Democrats against same sex marriage as the moral right. Thats your whole problem fearing a spook and not using your brain to get you and this country out of the shit the religious fruitcakes has put it in.
The Cathlics have laws derived from something called "Tradition"; born of the Roman Emporer Constatine, that superceed the Bible. Tradition is nothiing more than man made laws. Men deciding right an wrong based on their feelings. The reformation sought redirect this Catholic, Hellenistic influenced Philosophy.

. For me, right and wrong are not subject to my feelings... My feelings; more often than not, would lead me in a differant direction than Gods word. Gods word is what I use to determine right and wrong. What makes this country so strong is that its principles of right and wrong were garnered directly from the Bible. Half of the men who framed the constitution, held seminary degrees, they were pastors. Only five of the framers could not be pinned down as being confessing christians. Wanna guess which men get the most press in todays history books?
. The constitution of this country and all of the States, state that the rights therin, were rights given to us by our Creator. Because these men were Christians, we know that the Creator mentioned in our documents is God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the God of Abraham, Issiac, and Jacob. A clear sense of right and wrong taken from the iron clad truths of the Bible were woven into our Goverment and Laws. .
. You can say, because it don't work for me, "I don't believe this" all you want. But the facts will support that this is the truth. George Washington for example, spent two hours a day in prayer and Bible Study. If you want, I can go down the list of the founding fathers and tell you of their contributions to the cause of Christ. It is quite an impressive list. Every presidential inagural address since then has included a prayer or petion to the almighty God. All the presidents save one; John F. Kennedy, have been prodestant and thus prayed to the Lord Jesus Christ. They no longer teach these things in history class, but there was a time when they did. Not before or since has there been a nation founded on the Christian principles upon which our country was built.

. Your life, liberty, and freedom Mr. Batts are indeed inalienable rights given to you by your creator. To tear down these principles Mr. Batts would be to tear down this Country with your own hands. Careful what you hope for, lest you no longer be the subject of the priciples laid forth in Bible, but rather become the subject of principles laid forth by men, as was the case in Neros Rome, Napolians France, Stalins Russia and Hitlers Germany...
You can not have it both ways Steve....But, butt, but...
But God Damnit,... Your Soul is Yours,... "God Bless ya man".

[dungnfam]

Amen to that CPX. Everyone would be better off if they put their life in the hands of Christ. Give yourself over to Him. The only way into Heaven and eternal life is by God's grace through your Faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Don't let Satan control your life, and he is controlling your life right now if you haven't given your life to Christ and you probably don't even know it. Everyone is a sinner. Christians will tell you that nobody, except Christ, is perfect. Christians aren't perfect. We're just forgiven by Christ for our sins. God bless everyone.

[highlineswitcher]

dungnfam you preach pretty good how about the part where it says though shall not steal . view it as you may but as you have said in another post you would cross that picket line . view it as you wish but that is stealing.not on a material level but on a higher level you are stealing the right of those people and there families who are sticking up for what they believe
to make a better living for themselves

[CenterPointEX]

Just curious Highline, are you a Christian?
. In Malachi chapter three the Bible asks, 8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me."But you ask, 'How do we rob you?'... bring the whole tithe to the temple...
and again in Romans chapter two it asks,
. "You who teach others, do you teach yourselves? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?"

[highlineswitcher]

Just curious Highline, are you a Christian?
. In Malachi chapter three the Bible asks, 8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me."But you ask, 'How do we rob you?'... bring the whole tithe to the temple...
and again in Romans chapter two it asks,
. "You who teach others, do you teach yourselves? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?"
I recieved my sacraments in a roman catholic church as a kid . never really went to church on a steady basis NOW as an adult and have choices of my own I believe in a higher being but not any religion. you make a good point in youre quote I stand corrected on that part.
LAST TIME I WENT TO CHURCH SOME REAL BAD THING HAPPENED .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................I WALKED OUT WITH A WIFE

[Orgnizdlbr]

You are good a cut and paste Steve, Now can you tell us why you think they want a list of what folks search for on the internet.
. All men who have seen pornography know the problems it causes to our mental health. Any guy looking at a naked woman, can not think straight. A habit of viewing Pornography will cause a man to see all women in his mind naked. Thus he never thinks straight. The drugs our body produces during sexual release and pre release is ten times more powerful and addicting than heroin. Just like drugs, one needs bigger and bigger doses of it to feed the habit. So the addict becomes more and more deviant, until the fantasy no longer satisfy him and he acts out his desires. When that happens it is always bad news. The anonamous easy access that the internet provides has increased the addiction numbers astronomicly and exponentially in this country. To the point that Porn is the biggest media industry outlet in the country.

Mr. Batts, do you think we should do anything to curb this American Addiction? Or should we allow it free reign an live with the consequences?

CP, where do you get your facts from? You are a man of conviction, I respect that. Back this statement up, I'm starting to worry about you. http://powerlineman.com/lforum/images/smilies/wink.gif

[CenterPointEX]

Pick a statement you want backed up OGB, and I will attempt to oblige you. I read a lot, I write a lot. As a hobby I study people. I am certain, OGB that since you have access to the internet, you have seen online porn. Am I wrong; from your experience, in saying that it has an intoxicating effect on you? Those images get burned into your brain like a read only CD. Years later you can still see them. Your brain circuits actually get rewired.

[CHICAGO HAND.]

This Country Was Founded By Religious Nuts With Guns

[Orgnizdlbr]

Pick a statement you want backed up OGB, and I will attempt to oblige you. I read a lot, I write a lot. As a hobby I study people. I am certain, OGB that since you have access to the internet, you have seen online porn. Am I wrong; from your experience, in saying that it has an intoxicating effect on you? Those images get burned into your brain like a read only CD. Years later you can still see them. Your brain circuits actually get rewired.

Sure CP, what publication, research paper, thesis, or medical journal have you perused that gave an opinion stating that porn I have viewed specific to the internet or in any other form has been "BURNED" into my Brain? Who,what expert, has given an opinion that porn has what you describe as an intoxicating effect more powerful than herion? As I stated previously, you are well read, you can make eloquent statements and argument on a viriety of issues. I think your opinion and hypothosis on this one is wrong. I respect your opinion. I respect your belief in the Lord. I have a problem with fundemental evangelicals who find they must impose their puritanical life style and beliefs on others.

So quote me the expert, qoute me the publication, quote me the study and I'll read it with an objective view. But dont quote it from some right wing evangical publication with an agenda and an axe to grind, I wont waste my time.

Let me ask you this; what is your defination of pornogrophy, is it hard core porn, or is it a statue in the Justice Department that holds the scales of Justice? Remember that bit of Puritanical nonsense? AG Ashcroft covering a statue because it was lewd? Oh, wait, that statue has been burned into my brain......or was it Jimmy Swagerts brain, I dont quite remember.

BTW, is viewing a womans naked body detrimental to ones mental health? I was under the impresion that we were all created in the image and likeness of God. Is it a sin CP?

BTW, IMO the porn industry is a vile business. The industry exploits women, uses them up and throws them away. For all of those who profit from the industry, justice would be served if their daughters went into the business. The people who profit from that industry are some of the lowest forms of human life.

[CenterPointEX]

This may take a while, but here we go.
www.healingsprings.com/ENDORPHINS.htm
. This is a secular article on the drugs produced in body during the sexual process. First discovered in 1975, endorphins ("endogenous morphine") is one of several morphine-like substances (opioids) discovered within our brain. Endorphin production can increase 200% from the beginning to the end of sexual activity. Morphine is a powerful addicting substance. That which the body produces is purer than anything man can snythasize. We know what is in honey... but we can not come close to poducing what a bee does.

. Sex was given to us by God to enjoy in the context of marriage. Outside the context of marriage there are problems with it. Disease and depression are just the tip of the iceberg. One out of three women are sexually abused in some manor before the age of ninteen.

You side stepped a direct question that would put this whole thing in prospective. When you view porn, does it have an intoxicating effect on you? I believe I am a normal red blooded American male. When I see pictures of naked women posed in a sexual manor, endogenous morphine starts to flood my nerveous system. I do not believe this to be an abnormal reaction. When I see a woman dressed seductivly, same reaction. I have talked with a number of men about this, and I have not yet found one where this was not the case. If that does not happen to you, you will be the first.

. What is porn? It is hard to define, but we know it when we see it. Women posing un or partially clad, in manor that starts the drug production process in the viewers body. Viewing a naked body is not a sin. Lusting after a naked body that does not belong to you is a sin. All sin is pleasurable for a time. Food was made to eat and enjoy in context. But gluttoney has a price and eventually suffering is the price one pays for it.

[Orgnizdlbr]

Sex is created to enjoy in the context of marriage. Outside the context of marriage there are problems with it. Disease and Death are just the tip of the iceberg. One out of three women are sexually abused in some manor before the age of ninteen.

You side stepped a direct question that would put this whole thing in prospective. When you view porn, does it have an intoxicating effect on you? I believe I am a normal red blooded American male. When I see pictures of naked women posed in a sexual manor, adrenaline starts to flood my nerveous system. I do not believe this to be an abnormal reaction. When I see a woman dressed seductivly, same reaction. I have talked with a number of men about this, and I have not yet found one where this was not the case. If that does not happen to you, you will be the first.

. What is porn? It is hard to define, but we know it when we see it. Women posing un or partially clad, in manor that starts the drug production process in the viewers body. Viewing a naked body is not a sin. Lusting after a naked body that does not belong to you is a sin. All sin is pleasurable for a time. Food was made to eat and enjoy in context. But gluttoney has a price and eventually suffering is the price one pays for it.

Cp, I answered much more directly than you have. I may have given you a slightly convoluted answer but you havent addressed much of my post. But thats alright, so here is my view. I as well as most males I know who are red blooded Americans certainly have a reaction when they see a beautiful woman. She doesnt have to be naked CP, or even dressed provocativly, it is a normal human reaction, a reaction, BTW, given to us by GOD. That is, unless the male hits from the other side of the plate so to speak. The statement about burning images into my brain and equating the feeling of seeing a woman in provocative dress or pose to heroin addiction is a bit much. Heroin addiction is a incideous, debilating, chronic habit that is a major problem among our population. Ever see anyone you know die from herion addiction? I have...it aint pretty.

[Orgnizdlbr]

This may take a while, but here we go.
www.healingsprings.com/ENDORPHINS.htm (http://www.healingsprings.com/ENDORPHINS.htm)
. This is a secular article on the drugs produced in body during the sexual process. First discovered in 1975, endorphins ("endogenous morphine") is one of several morphine-like substances (opioids) discovered within our brain. Endorphin production can increase 200% from the beginning to the end of sexual activity. Morphine is a powerful addicting substance. That which the body produces is purer than anything man can snythasize. We know what is in honey... but we can not come close to poducing what a bee does.

. Sex is created to enjoy in the context of marriage. Outside the context of marriage there are problems with it. Disease and depression are just the tip of the iceberg. One out of three women are sexually abused in some manor before the age of ninteen.

You side stepped a direct question that would put this whole thing in prospective. When you view porn, does it have an intoxicating effect on you? I believe I am a normal red blooded American male. When I see pictures of naked women posed in a sexual manor, endogenous morphine starts to flood my nerveous system. I do not believe this to be an abnormal reaction. When I see a woman dressed seductivly, same reaction. I have talked with a number of men about this, and I have not yet found one where this was not the case. If that does not happen to you, you will be the first.

. What is porn? It is hard to define, but we know it when we see it. Women posing un or partially clad, in manor that starts the drug production process in the viewers body. Viewing a naked body is not a sin. Lusting after a naked body that does not belong to you is a sin. All sin is pleasurable for a time. Food was made to eat and enjoy in context. But gluttoney has a price and eventually suffering is the price one pays for it.

who is nathaniel altman?...secular? Palm reader, Cmon CP, I meant real science, not palm reading......

[CenterPointEX]

Though they get their information from verifyable secular sources. How about the encyclopedia Columbia is that a trustworthy enough source? www.bartleby.com/65/en/endorphi.html You are correct in saying I did not answer all of your post. As you can see we must exaust a lot of board space when we begin documenting everything.

Ever see anyone you know die from herion addiction? I have...it aint pretty. Forgive me ogb, my posts are a work in progress and Swamp will testify to that. I didn't expect you to post back so quickly.
. The things I am telling about the physiology of sex are easily verifyable. But I am researching them to spare you the trouble. But experience teaches you things other sources can't hold a candle to. I am sure your experience with the heroin addict taught you things about that situation that you could never glean from a publication. So from your experience, do particulary provocative images of sexuality stick vivedly in your brain for a protracted period of time... With myself and all the men I have asked this question the answer is yes. Your answer will be part of my source data bank.

. No, I have not been intimate with Heroin addiction, but I have watched two close friends die from sexual addiction. They were switch hitters to borrow your verbage. Both of them were heavy consumers of the porn industry. Both them had a sex drive that was unquencable. Both of them grew more deviant over the years I knew them. Both died of AIDS. I watched a friend in the grip of a cocaine/meth addiction lose everything he had. The drug addict and the sex addicts traveled a simalar road. The drug addict recovered and is making a comeback. The sex addicts are dead.
. Should you begin to research the famous sexual preditors of the last centry you will discover that the genisis of their deviancy was being sexualy abused, then a diet of porn as they grew into puberty and adulthood. You are what you eat, there is a lot of truth in that. There is an interview with Ted Bundy that illustrates this should you have the time and stomach for it.
. Not everybody who tries Heroin becomes an addict. But everyone who allows heroin to become a habit becomes an addict. The opiate produced by the brain is more powerful than heroin. The body can be trained to produce it in larger and larger quanaties, just like the body can be trained to produce muscle mass. Porn and illicet sex are a treadmill so to speak. The sex addict keeps increasing risk to increase production.
. My buddy the coke addict gave me some of his coke to try once... It was good. I immediatly promised myself I would never buy any. I knew if I ever started I would never stop. There is pleasure in sin.. for a moment, then you pay the piper. Sin is like a reptile, Reptiles as long as they live never quit getting bigger. Their growth is limited only by their lifespan and resources. If you keep feeding Sin or a reptile, eventually you must either kill it or become a slave to it. If you fail to do one or the other you will be devoured by it.

On that note...Dinosaurs still live by the way... Its just that their lifespan and resources aint't what they used to be.

[Orgnizdlbr]

Though they get their information from verifyable secular sources. How about the encyclopedia Columbia is that a trustworthy enough source? www.bartleby.com/65/en/endorphi.html (http://www.bartleby.com/65/en/endorphi.html) You are correct in saying I did not answer all of your post. As you can see we must exaust a lot of board space when we begin documenting everything.
Forgive me ogb, my posts are a work in progress and Swamp will testify to that. I didn't expect you to post back so quickly.
. The things I am telling about the physiology of sex are easily verifyable. But I am researching them to spare you the trouble. But experience teaches you things other sources can't hold a candle to. I am sure your experience with the heroin addict taught you things about that situation that you could never glean from a publication. So from your experience, do particulary provocative images of sexuality stick vivedly in your brain for a protracted period of time... With myself and all the men I have asked this question the answer is yes. Your answer will be part of my source data bank.

. No, I have not been intimate with Heroin addiction, but I have watched two close friends die from sexual addiction. They were switch hitters to borrow your verbage. Both of them were heavy consumers of the porn industry. Both them had a sex drive that was unquencable. Both of them grew more deviant over the years I knew them. Both died of AIDS. I watched a friend in the grip of a cocaine/meth addiction lose everything he had. The drug addict and the sex addicts traveled a simalar road. The drug addict recovered and is making a comeback. The sex addicts are dead.
. Should you begin to research the famous sexual preditors of the last centry you will discover that the genisis of their deviancy was being sexualy abused, then a diet of porn as they grew into puberty and adulthood. You are what you eat, there is a lot of truth in that. There is an interview with Ted Bundy that illustrates this should you have the time and stomach for it.
. Not everybody who tries Heroin becomes an addict. But everyone who allows heroin to become a habit becomes an addict. The opiate produced by the brain is more powerful than heroin. The body can be trained to produce it in larger and larger quanaties, just like the body can be trained to produce muscle mass. Porn and illicet sex are a treadmill so to speak. The sex addict keeps increasing risk to increase production.
. My buddy the coke addict gave me some of his coke to try once... It was good. I immediatly promised myself I would never buy any. I knew if I ever started I would never stop. There is pleasure in sin.. for a moment, then you pay the piper. Sin is like a reptile, Reptiles as long as they live never quit getting bigger. Their growth is limited only by their lifespan and resources. If you keep feeding Sin or a reptile, eventually you must either kill it or become a slave to it. If you fail to do one or the other you will be devoured by it.

On that note...Dinosaurs still live by the way... Its just that their lifespan and resources aint't what they used to be.

CP, there is no need to ask for forgiveness, this discussion is only discourse between two lineman who happen to disagree on certain issues. I dont disagree with all of you opinions CP, hows that for someone who is a Democrat?

Years ago, when I quit smoking I started running to get my lungs and wind back. I have experienced what the article calls "runners high" I dont equate that to viewing porn. Maybe an individual with a background of abuse or somene who has a genetic flaw is more prone to what you describe as "addictive behavior." I dont know I am not a scientist or doctor.

I have also experienced the "runners wall" I'm sure you have heard of that. Have you ever experienced the "runners wall"?

I grew up in a pretty strict Roman Catholic household. I attended Catholic school for over 7 years before they threw me out. I was taught right from wrong by my father from the very beggining. Maybe if all families did the same the world would be different, I believe there has to be a strong foundation for the house to stand.

[LostArt]

Holy cow! Remind me that when I notice a title that is "Under God" that it might not lead to sex or porn in topic! :eek: Okay, if noone has a sense of humor after that comment, then please forgive me. But, let me warn ya......after reading a few scriptures in the past, even God has a sense of humor! He still does! He gave us Republicans to laugh at and Democrats to talk about. Or is that the other way? Heh.

Heck, I might be pretty niave.........but, I didn't even know there was porn until I was eighteen or older! I know my children learned it way before then.

Okay..........sorry. Carry on. But, I had to grin at Georgie. He is really posting some deep stuff lately. I'm enjoying it. Keep going....

BTW........CPX......is flirting a sin?

[Orgnizdlbr]

BTW........CPX......is flirting a sin?


LOL, Jeez I hope not.....

[LostArt]

LOL, Jeez I hope not.....

:D For some reason I'm thinking of that Billy Joel song. How does it go? :confused:

Anyway, I think I'm with the sinners. Heh. Oh well............

[Orgnizdlbr]

:D For some reason I'm thinking of that Billy Joel song. How does it go? :confused:

Anyway, I think I'm with the sinners. Heh. Oh well............

Only The Good Die Young
The Stranger Released: 1977 (http://www.billyjoel.com/discography/disco_04.html)

Come out Virginia, don't let me me wait
You Catholic girls start much too late
But sooner or later it comes down to fate
I might as well be the one
They showed you a statue and told you to pray
They built you a temple and locked you away
But they never told you the price that you pay
For things that you might have done...
Only the good die young

You might have heard I run with a dangerous crowd
We ain't too pretty we ain't too proud
We might be laughing a bit too loud
But that never hurt no one
Come on Virginia show me a sign
Send up a signal I'll throw you the line
The stained-glass curtain you're hiding behind
Never lets in the sun
And only the good die young

You got a nice white dress and a party on your confirmation
You got a brand new soul
And a cross of gold
But Virginia they didn't give you quite enough information
You didn't count on me
When you were counting on your rosary

They say there's a heaven for those who will wait
Some say it's better but I say it ain't
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints
Sinners are much more fun...
And only the good die young

You say your mother told you all that I could give you was a reputation
She never cared for me
But did she ever say a prayer for me?

[LostArt]

Only The Good Die Young

They say there's a heaven for those who will wait
Some say it's better but I say it ain't
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints
Sinners are much more fun...
And only the good die young



That's it! :D

[CenterPointEX]

. I have experienced what the article calls "runners high" I dont equate that to viewing porn. Maybe an individual with a background of abuse or somene who has a genetic flaw is more prone to what you describe as "addictive behavior." I grew up in a pretty strict Roman Catholic household. The opiates produced in the brain are the same, no matter the stimuli that induces production.
.. The RomCat genisis of your faith explains a lot. Like I said in the beginning, The RomCats in particular, rely on "Tradition" as an authority, to the exclusion even of the Bible. Tradition is not God breathed gospel but rather fluid ideas derived of mans reason. Gods word is unchanging, but in contrast to that, things deemed traditon by Popes, have been juxopposed from one Pope to the next. Something incompatable with the RomCat belief that the Pope is God's oracle, and therefor his utterances considered gospel... RomCats are more so students of Tradition, rather than of the Bible and thus the RomCat whole sale production of sexualy liberated Madonnas, Priests, and Priestetts is inevetable.

... All societys that have cast faith in God to the wind have ended up in the same place. Sexual deviancy... one of the most potent weapons in Satans arsenal. Men of note caught in this web... Sampson, David, Abraham, Lott, Lotts wife, Noahs daughters N the list goes on..These deviant societys worship a female fertility goddess. They have given her many names over the milleniums. But they all involve the likes of sexual purification rites attained at the temple with temple prostitutes, male, female and child. You have seen the term Asherites, in the Bible. They were just such a society. An Asherah Pole was a big wooden dildo for lack of a more kosher term. Any how Sodom N Gomorrah in Genisis, even the tribe of Benjamen found in Judges went down this road. Every godless soceity from the beginning til now has become a cesspool of sexual deviancy, where rape becomes a sport.

Judges 19:22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him. 23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. 25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. 26 At daybreak the woman went back to the house and fell down dead at the door and lay there until daylight .

. With no fear of God to stop them, it becomes all about the high. I have been to the wall and experience the high. Its part of the reason I do linework. Back in the day I rode bulls and bareback. These activities are conducive to the production of the aformentioned opiates in the brain. So is sin of any sort.
. Is flirting a sin?...
. If it doesn't hurt them physicaly, is having sex with children a ok? Can a man play with fire and not get burned? Is it possible to use heroin on a daily basis and not become addicted? Is it possible to use Pornography to foster the production of opiates in you brain on a daily basis and not become addicted? Is it a sin to be addicted to sex with your spouse?(if it is, I got a problem) Is it possible for a nation to become a daily consumer of cheap imported oil and not get addicted?(if'n it is not, we got a problem)
. The answer to some of these questions is, possibly, but not probably. Would anyone of you be willing to experiment with one of these things and let me know how it turns out? I have done a little experimenting of my own and found the answer to be no. I don't think my results to be unique. Just so nobody gets any ideas otherwise, sexually abuseing children is one of the most vile, phycologicly damaging, harmful things you could do to them, and is something I would not condone or experiment with under any circumstance. But I use this analogy to point to the direction one heads when he ignores the final authority on this subject... The Bible...

[Orgnizdlbr]

.
The answer to some of these questions is, possibly, but not probably. Would anyone of you be willing to experiment with one of these things and let me know how it turns out? I have done a little experimenting of my own and found the answer to be no. I don't think my results to be unique. Just so nobody gets any ideas otherwise, sexually abuseing children is one of the most vile, phycologicly damaging, harmful things you could do to them, and is something I would not condone or experiment with under any circumstance. But I use this analogy to point to the direction one heads when he ignores the final authority on this subject... The Bible...

You wore me out CP.....you view all things from your perspective and no other....

[CenterPointEX]

.

You wore me out CP.....you view all things from your perspective and no other..... Don't we all OGB?... this board is sustained for this reason. Some folks view the world thru flash glasses with a yellow tint, some thru rose colored glasses. I view it with my Bible goggles on. I find its the only way not get worn out on it, an give up in despair.

. The definition of Righteousness is knowing and doing what is right according to Gods Word.

. The definition of self righteous is knowing and doing what is right according to self.

Anybody who does not use an absolute, infailable, unchanging, source to define right and wrong is by default "Self Righteous"
There is only one such source. Without exception the texts of the worlds religions are now and have been in flux... save one.
Any casual student of the Bible can attest to the righteoussness of my thoughts on this subject.
. For me, right and wrong are not subject to my feelings... My feelings; more often than not, would lead me in a differant direction than Gods word. Gods word is what I use to determine right and wrong. What makes this country so strong is that its principles of right and wrong were garnered directly from the Bible. Half of the men who framed the constitution, held seminary degrees, they were pastors. www.powerlineman.com/lforum/showthread.php?t=1320&page=1&pp=10

[Orgnizdlbr]

. The definition of Righteousness is knowing and doing what is right according to Gods Word.

. The definition of self righteous is knowing and doing what is right according to self.



Righteous adj 1 acting in a just, upright manner; virtous 2 morally right or justifiable. Websters New World Office Dictionary

Nothing about Gods word CP. And yes, Websters is a purely secular publication.

Cp, you often make argument that criticises the Roman Catholic Church. I too criticise certain things the RC church does. You say that the RC 's traditions and law are not based on the Bible.

Who's Bible do you hold as the true word of God? The Catholics publish their own version. There is the King James Version, also the Gideons version that is found in Hotels an Motels across the nation. There are other versions that profess to be the word of God. Some omit content, others add. Which version do you assert is the true word? Who has translated your version? Are the Apochrophies part of your version? What are the significance of the Dead Sea Scrolls? Do you interpret the "word" yourself or do you have direction from a theologeon or clergyman? You are most absolute in your opininion, from where do you derive such absolute proof of the statements you make? Where is the proof that the version of the word you subscribe to is the true word? Is it an absolute matter of faith that the Scripture you read is the true word, or is there any proof?

[Orgnizdlbr]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CenterPointex. "One Nation Under God"
. For me, right and wrong are not subject to my feelings... My feelings; more often than not, would lead me in a differant direction than Gods word. Gods word is what I use to determine right and wrong. What makes this country so strong is that its principles of right and wrong were garnered directly from the Bible. Half of the men who framed the constitution, held seminary degrees, they were pastors. http://www.powerlineman.com/lforum/...20&page=1&pp=10


Did All of the Framers subscribe to the notion and idea of Christianity? Were there any Diests among the Framers? What was Madison's opinion and perspective on the issue? Why did Thomas Jefferson cut ties with has Alma Mater "The College of William And Mary"?

Again, from secular sources substantiate your assertion.

[CenterPointEX]

This is a transcript Of an 1892 Supreme Court decision. Minds loftier have come to the same conclusion. But I am working on secular documentation on the deist thing http://www.languageandlaw.org/TEXTS/CASES/HOLYTRIN.HTM this is an excerpt from that decision

. There is a universal language pervading them all, having one meaning. They affirm and reaffirm that this is a religious nation. These are not individual sayings, declarations of private persons. They are organic utterances. They speak the voice of the entire people. While because of a general recognition of this truth the question has seldom been presented to the courts, yet we find that in Updegraph v. Com., 11 Serg. & R. 394, 400, it was decided that, 'Christianity, general Christianity, is, and always has been, a part of the common law of Pennsylvania; * * * not Christianity with an established church and tithes and spiritual courts, but Christianity with liberty of conscience to all men.'
WWW.Dictionary.com also secualr
Righteousness.
1. Morally upright; without guilt or sin: a righteous parishioner.
2. In accordance with virtue or morality: a righteous judgment.
3. Morally justifiable: righteous anger. See Synonyms at moral.
While according to the Bible is not overt in this definition, it is implied. Left where it is we will have to debate the authoritive source of right and wrong. Without an infalible authority, right and wrong are relative, and thus there is no such thing. But at the end of the day, Gods laws are written upon our hearts and inherantly we know the truth. Should you try to disagree with that your conscience will betray you.

[Orgnizdlbr]

This is a transcript Of an 1892 Supreme Court decision. Minds loftier have come to the same conclusion. But I am working on secular documentation on the deist thing http://www.languageandlaw.org/TEXTS/CASES/HOLYTRIN.HTM this is an excerpt from that decision

. There is a universal language pervading them all, having one meaning. They affirm and reaffirm that this is a religious nation. These are not individual sayings, declarations of private persons. They are organic utterances. They speak the voice of the entire people. While because of a general recognition of this truth the question has seldom been presented to the courts, yet we find that in Updegraph v. Com., 11 Serg. & R. 394, 400, it was decided that, 'Christianity, general Christianity, is, and always has been, a part of the common law of Pennsylvania; * * * not Christianity with an established church and tithes and spiritual courts, but Christianity with liberty of conscience to all men.'

One need look no further than the Constitution or for that matter understand history to know why this Nation was founded. My question remains, what is the "true" word? What is the "correct" version of the Bible?

You will find, I believe, that more of the Framers, were Diests than let on. As a starter, look at Madison and Jefferson, see what you can come up with. I believe you'll find facts that are contrary to what some right wing Evangilicals would have the Nation believe. But that is for another day, a different discussion on how so called believers "buy" influence with the tithes of their congregations. Lets see what we can learn about the Framers and the "true" version of the word first. Then I'd love to hear about some of the other things Ive mentioned......more to come.

[CenterPointEX]

If we have a God who can create all that we know out of nothing, we have a God who can perserve his word for us. Anyone who makes the argument about translation is not a student of the Bible. If we translate the big river to Spanish it is the El Rio Grande trasnliterated to English, The River Big. Nothing is lost in the translation or transliteration. We have more documantation on the genisis of the Bible than we do any other literary work in history.
. The true word? Here is how we know what is and is not to be included in the Bible. Gods word is unchanging. If you use Scripture to interpret scripture you can not go wrong. It teaches the same thing from Genisis to Revelation. Should a letter or work show up that someone claims is inspired by God. It will be easy to determine if or not this is the case by its content. The books you mentioned inserted in the middle of the Catholic Bible were of suspect origen and contain ideology that disagrees with the whole of Scripture. They do contain legitimate history. But also do they contain heresy that does not agree with the rest of scripture. The dudes who inserted them had no justification other than "Tradition" which I mentioned in my earlier disertation on RomCats...

. The Biggest problem with the apocrapha,,,, Mary Veneration... other than the angels proclamation 'Blessed are you among women" there is no evidence for it outside the apocrahpa. Over the millenuims, even Gods people were tempted to bring in the Pegan Goddess worship. Mary as the "MOther of God" is just such an amimal. Same status as the Wife of Nimrod from Genisis was elevated to in Babylon. It for all practical purposes elevates her to the status of Co Redeemer. A sinless human... A goddess,the only sinless human. Everywhere else the Bible claims that every human is born in sin. These books do not agree with the whole of Scripture.

. I use a Parallel Bible with four translatins side by side. King James, Niv, Living (paraphrase), and NASB. King James though hard to read is helpful because they strived towards transliteration when they could, therefor it is good for doing word studies. The Living Bible is helpful in that they did not even attempt transliteration but rather sought to translate forth the meaning of a passage, thus word studies are almost impossible, but it makes it easy to read long passages and get the jist of whats going on. The NIV stands in the middle of these two. While the words change here and there, from one translation to the next, the jist does not. Like I said we have more manuscript evidence for the Bible than we do any other historical work. Jesus quoted and accepted the Old Testimat Works as Gods word. Now whether or not the historicity of Jesus is truth is another can of worms. Which I will not deal with at this Point except to Point out that if we can trust him we can trust the books he accepted as gospel.

. Now there are translations out there like the New World Translation done by the Jehovahs Wittnesses where some one has gone in and just changed what they wanted to, to suit their needs. No one who worked on the New World Translation knew any Greek or Hebrew. They made their translations from English to English with a goal in mind. That was to do away with the notion that Jesus was God. The problem with those versions is that even after their purging, they still contain truths which when put side by side with thier changes disagree, showing the translation to be unreliable.

. Mans works in contrast to the Bible are always changing, The Koran is fluid and self conflicting as is the Book of Mormon. We still have origional copies of the Book of Mormon. Lain side by side they don't even come close to being unchanging, in that what they taught origionally does not match what they teach now. Brigham Young rewrote a lot of it cause he was an intelligent fella and saw that it would not stand like it was, unlike Joseph Smith its author.

. The Dead sea scrolls have only cemented the trustworthyness of later manuscripts in that fragments from them can be matched of with the later manuscripts, confirming the unchangedness of them. Hebrew scribes were so meticulas that they had dudes whose job it was to count the letters in a copy an the origional. If they did not add up the copy was destroyed.

[CenterPointEX]

What is your opinion of the "Urantia Book" CP? If you read the above post Swamp you will find that a new revelations truth can be determined by their agreement or not with the whole of scripture.
. Before Jesus asked Peter about the sheep thing, He said, "Some folks say I am just a great teacher, some a great Prophet, some say I'm just a man,... who do you say that "I Am"." Peter answered that question correctly. All cults can be easiely identified because the very first thing they do... is revmove the Godhood of Jesus/displace him as "the Son of God" The Mormans do it, The JW's do it, the Koran does it, the Unitairins do it, in the sense that Mary is the MOther of God, the Catholics do it... and to get to the subject at hand... The Urantia does it. It is nothing more than repackeged HInduism, New Ageism, which is not new age at all, but repackeged worship of Isis and Osiris,/The Nimrod of Genisis and his wife/ "The great archetect of the Universe" If you will notice Swamp... it is not neccessary to clog board space with entire quotes, there is a way around that.
Well Labor, I won't really say anything to you about the book, to give you any basis to form any opinion by what I might say. One that takes years to read, and gives Volumes of things to ponder..... What does a Morman Scientoligist have to say when he knocks on your door?... Nothing/Urantia...
..... Its like... "The very sun, moon and stars, then when all things considered, righteousness and the Son, after the Father, the communion in all things is where this leads to."
.... Like Swamp says, it take a long time to read and when someone asks you what is all about, you give an answer like the one Swamp gave. The dude tha t wrote it is a channeler... I'm thinkin maybe Swamp was on the other end of the channel...

[Orgnizdlbr]

Now there are translations out there like the New World Translation done by the Jehovahs Wittnesses where some one has gone in and just changed what they wanted to, to suit their needs. No one who worked on the New World Translation knew any Greek or Hebrew. They made their translations from English to English with a goal in mind. That was to do away with the notion that Jesus was God. The problem with those versions is that even after their purging, they still contain truths which when put side by side with thier changes disagree, showing the translation to be unreliable.

. Mans works in contrast to the Bible are always changing, The Koran is fluid and self conflicting as is the Book of Mormon. We still have origional copies of the Book of Mormon. Lain side by side they don't even come close to being unchanging, in that what they taught origionally does not match what they teach now. Brigham Young rewrote a lot of it cause he was an intelligent fella and saw that it would not stand like it was, unlike Joseph Smith its author.

. The Dead sea scrolls have only cemented the trustworthyness of later manuscripts in that fragments from them can be matched of with the later manuscripts, confirming the unchangedness of them. Hebrew scribes were so meticulas that they had dudes whose job it was to count the letters in a copy an the origional. If they did not add up the copy was destroyed.




How then, can anyone be certain that at any time all versions of the Bible have not been altered? Again, my question is, does it come down to purely a matter of faith, is it that you believe that the versions of the Bible have been preserved in the pristine form of the original words put on the paper? Is there more proof that you can give me which would convince someone that yours is "THE Version?"

What is your opinion of the Gnostic Gospels? The Gnostic Gospels were found in or around the late 1940s.

what is your take on the "Sang Raal" what or who was the Sang Raal, what are the implications if the Sang Rall was indeed a person?

[Orgnizdlbr]

What is your opinion of the "Urantia Book" CP? I have a hard copy of it...and the concordex. Look it up on Google. I doubt you're familiar with it. What's your opinion on it?

Swamp, what is the Urantia Book?

[LostArt]

Check out this link, do a little reading, and tell me what you think the Urantia book is.


http://www.urantia.org/

Whoa. No cliff notes on this one Georgie. Read it and give us a highlight buddy. :D

[CenterPointEX]

How then, can anyone be certain that at any time all versions of the Bible have not been altered? Again, my question is, does it come down to purely a matter of faith,? Well, in that vein, how can we trust any history. Like I said, we have more ancient manuscripts of the Bible, unchanged from then til now than we have of any other literay work. There are over 5000 prophecys in the Bible that have been fulfilled. No other book of faith claims even one that came to pass. The Mormans are batting 0.00 , and they have had a boat load of Prophesys with dates that have come an gone. Also like I said, archeology, history, etc. back up what is written even of the acient times. The Jews were pretty meticulas in guarding the word from this kinda thing. The letters that make up the new testiment were in circulation at a time when witnesses that could have called B.S. were around. But they didn't. But you are correct in one thing... at the end of the day, no man will ever come to God by reason. You gotta come by faith. Every great scholar who ever set out to disprove the Bible; after examining the evidence, had no choice but to accept it as truth. If you followed in their footsteps you would end up in the same place. But you won't go there if'n you don't want to. Cause ya see... God gave us free will... and we are in bondage to free will... as oxymoronic as that might seem. Did I just say oxymoronic?.... I need to lay off the Urntia...?

[LostArt]

LMAO! Oh man............maybe that is how CP pronounces it Swamp. :D

[CenterPointEX]

The dude that wrote your book is a self proclaimed channeler SWamp...
. I have read all the "left behind" series. The Rapture is relativley new concept in that it arivived around 1832 I think... The brainchild of a Pastor John Nelson Darby... I do not completely agree with his escatology, but that is irrelevant, in that all of Christendom agrees that your escatological view; i.e. Pre-mill, post-mill, A-mill etc., does not affect your Salvation... and more important, most all of us, except those of us walking the earth when it goes down, will enter judgement day not thru a rapture, but thru death.
. I apologise butt I was just having a little fun with the New Age title chosen by your channeler... Please forgive me... Do you know what a channeler is Swamp?... Butt I digress... HHuMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

[LostArt]

Cliff notes!!!

Swamp, CP is talking about who came up with concept of a "rapture" because of some scriptures in the Bible.

If I remember correctly it is the Pre-tribulation that is a group that believes in the rapture. They believe that the Lord will save them from the Tribulation (the end of time....when things really get rough).

Then you have the Mid-tribs and the Post-tribs....but that's getting really indepth....and I'm not up to it before school time!:D

CP might post like he is tipping the bottle a bit but, he didn't come up with these concepts! :D

[dungnfam]

God is beyond all of us. We can't comprehend Him. To find God you have to look toward Jesus Christ because the only chance you have to be saved is through God's grace in your faith as Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior from your sin. Don't forget, we all sin. Christians are just forgiven.

[CenterPointEX]

CP...you're "babbling". I'm talkin bout a MOVIE!! It might have been a book, but I'm talkin bout the MOVIE!"The Rapture is relativley new concept in that it arivived around 1832? CP....The Rapture...Revelation...The Bible...."arrived around 1832?" . A "relatively new concept" huh....
. I'm sorry Swamp, I posted what I did under the assumption that you saw the movie and knew what it was about. I read all the Left Behind books. The were written by Tim Lehay. The are based on a view of the end times theory that was first presented by a Pastor John Nelson Darby in 1832. All the stuff that happens in the movie;stuff that first happened in a series of popular books by the way, is conjecture based on Scripture. The theory sets forth a series of events that begin when all the believers are taken off the earth into Christs realm. Then an antiChrist comes to power. After seven years of trouble Christ comes and whacks him and rules on earth for 1000 years. Then the devil is set loose or the earth and set up the battle of Armageddon, which never happens cause Christ comes on the scene and whacks the Devil at which point all men are judged.
Before 1832, all of Christendom new nothhing of a rapture like event. Except on the last day when all believers are taken up into Christ and the unbelievers sent to the other place. Anyhow its some pretty deep stuff and there has been much debate on it in Christendom. But like I said all of Christendom agrees that it does not matter what you believe about the specific events of the end time or how they go down. It does not affect your salvation. N like I said, most folks will enter the endtimes or the last day, or the judgement, whatever you want to call it, thru death, unless you happen to be one of the people who are walkin the earth when it goes down.

[CenterPointEX]

Hollywoods version of the Book of Revelation...after the true believers were taken....us..."second thoughters"...still got a chance. I like that.... Therin lies the problem Swamp... this theory gives those who chose not to give themselves to Chirst in this life the false hope that they will get another chance should the whole thing turn out not to be a myth... Swamp you can look at Mt. Rushmore and know it and know evolution didn't put them faces up there. You can look at creation Swamp and know it didn't happen by no cosmic accident.
. Swamp, the choice to live by your own will, rather than Gods will, gets ratified the minute you take your last breath.
. And it is not Hollywoods rendention of Revelation, but rather Hollywoods rendention of a theory first submitted by Darby, and popularized in a series of fictional books based on that theory written by Tim Lehay and Jerry Jenkins.

....Jenkins and Lehay will conceed that it is just a theory, but they think it is a pretty good one. And they will also conceed that your Salvation does not depend on whether or not you ascribe to that theory, but rather, whether or not are a repentent sinner,believing you are deserving of Gods eternal damnation and you are in need of a savior. And you believe and accept that Jesus Christ, Gods only Son paid that penalty of death for you.

[CenterPointEX]

Is our creation a Game to him? Ya can't be a good person and go to heaven, without swearing alligance to jesus christ? Naw....I just can't sign up for that. Besides...It's all Pre Destiny. Can't do nothin bout it...just ride along and either accept JC or not...That's wrong.
He created us in his image Swamp. He gave us free will. If we didn't have free will we would not be in his image. He gave us a soul that will never cease to exist. If we are in his image how could it be otherwise. If we want to live with him, we must put our trust in him, trust that his way is the right way, rather than in pride chose that our way is the right way.
. Why would a good God force us to spend eternity trusting in him, if it was something that we could not accept and chose not to do.
. I repeat myself, Hell is pretty much, knowing you coulda been with him forever enjoying fellowship with him...
. To take a crack at L.A.'s question,... Friends.... Friends are life... Think about how it is one feels when he is with a friend... Mr. Batts maybe you can just imagine... It's good just to be around them, to share with them life... When ya go back to your H.S. reunion, and ya see em again... It's like you were never apart... If they don't want to be your friend, would you force em to be around you?... If they don't want to be your friend, should you kill them? Course not...

. Somebody asked me once, "If you were God, what would you do?".... I didn't have to think about it but for a split second... I grinned real big... And said in my best God voice...."I would 'make' some friends" No pun intended...

[CenterPointEX]

OK, so he created us in his image. Some of us, the Mold got screwed up I guess. Ya know man, I believe you can be a good person, and accept the word of "what's right", and proceed in the "great plan' just fine. Ya don't need to be rantin and ravin bout jesus to be saved, or...."proceed" in the plan. Jesus was a messanger, to deliver the Word and the plan. The problem is Swamp, you can not be a good person... The standard for being a good person is like you always say, "Follow the ten commandments." Swamp, CPX, and L.A. break some of the ten commandments everyday. Now the penalty Swamp for breaking just one of the ten commandments is death, hell, eternal damnation. So basicly, like you said n an earlier post, "We are all F___ed." But God made a way around that in Jesus Chist.
. . . The mold is not broke... but because we have free will;, we chose to break Gods law i.e. that which makes you good. We choose to follow our own way instead of Gods way, and that is what gets us in trouble. But you see Swamp, if you give your will to him, he will make you good. He will impart to you the ability to sin no more. But first the penalty for your sins has to be paid... Jesus the sinless one came and did that for Swamp... It is a gift Swamp in exercising his free will refuses to accept... If you want to know all this is true scoop Swamp, get on your knees, pray to God, tell him you are a sinner, that you want to change, and that you put your trust in him and want want him to change you. If he does reveal himself to you Swamp, go down to your local bible preaching church, take the pastor out to dinner, and tell him its on CPX...If he don't reaveal himself to you Swamp and let you know that all this Is real... I will be a monkeys uncle. I will send you a dinner for two at your choice of local restraunts. Its your Choice Swamp, its yours for the taking...
.Your "Centerpoint"....IS????... Have YOU Looked at the book? :-) NOT... BTW...Ya never mentioned my Coment on "Pre Destiny"..."Sign up or be Damned". I got to say, God's got a sense of humor. Pre-destination... predistination is a big can of worms Swamp, but the bottem line is if ya fall off one side of that issue you say "man is in control, and therfor is his own savior"... and if'n ya fall off the other side ya say, "man can do what ever he wants cause that is what God predistined him to do"... Question..."If God has predestined who will be saved and who will not, why should I tell anyone about him?"... Answer, "Because God commands it."
i.e.

[Orgnizdlbr]

WhereDid The Urantia Book Come From?

In the early 20th century, a physician practicing in Chicago became the head of a group known as the Contact Commission. This small group was the focal point for the production of, and the primary custodian for, the final text of The Urantia Book. They were sworn not to disclose details about the transactions in order to preclude future generations from venerating the participants. It was considered important that no individual might be exalted through their association with The Urantia Book. Because of its revelatory nature, the book stands on its own merit, nature and content.



As the contents of The Urantia Book were being transcribed, the Urantia Papers were read to, and questions were requested from "The Forum," a group that had been meeting regularly for discussions at the doctor's house. The answers to these questions were then incorporated into the papers. These early readers formed the first core group of believers in the revelation and became committed to the mission of bringing the teachings of The Urantia Book to the world.

A Brief Description of The Urantia Book...

The Urantia Book, first published by the Urantia Foundation in 1955, was authored by celestial beings as a special revelation to our planet, Urantia.



Swamp, one of my charector flaws, a life long afliction BTW, is that I am a skeptic. Lets just say that the very limited time I spent on the Urantia page made me very skeptical. I am much too old, too much of a creature of habit and too much of a practicalist to bite on the celestial being revelation.... Also I have no idea why this text is so large or came out this way...

[LostArt]

Also I have no idea why this text is so large or came out this way...

I don't know Georgie, but it sure scared me! More than the Urantia site! :D

[Orgnizdlbr]

Damn, figured it out labor.

Took me half hr. to figure it out, and you just lucked onto it.

I don't THINK so! :D
Pretty cool man.....

Swamp, mine really got posted by accident.....probably used the font from Urantia....I'm gonna play around some though....if every one posts in bold I might not need my glasses on the PC LoL ;)

[Orgnizdlbr]

Damn, figured it out labor.

Took me half hr. to figure it out, and you just lucked onto it.

I don't THINK so! :D
Pretty cool man.....


Wow, I can see without glasses...!

[LostArt]

HEY WATCH WHO YOU CALL DEAD BEATS BUSTER!!! :D


And for those that want to play in the sand pile with Labor and Swamp.....here ya go:


http://www.powerlineman.com/lforum/misc.php?do=bbcode

[LostArt]

That two! :D Heh. I'm so use to that option already chosen for you, that I didn't know you could even do that! LOL!


(Don't tell anyone I'm a mod on another site..........PLEASE! :D )

[CenterPointEX]

So...Bunch of deadbeats on this thread huh? Nobody's EVEN got a take on Urantia huh?Figures. Most people wouldn't say Shit...if they had a mouthfull.:rolleyes: The rest, too dumb to even know what the hell we're talkin bout....And...that's where we are....Since you insist Swamp, let me back up on the channeler thing, The authors claim that is how the book came into being. A dude was sleeping and being used as a speaker for aliens and these two other dudes wrote down what he was saying. That is the premise.
. . . The authors are actually two former Seventh Day Adventists, Dr. William S. Sadler and his brother-in-law, Wilfred Custer Kellogg, who lived with the Sadlers in Chicago. Dr. Sadler, taught at Chicago’s McCormick Theological Seminary. A lot of the material comes from Dr. Saddlers earlier works. Some of it comes from 7th Day Adventists doctrines, and a buttload of it comes plagerized from 15 other books, that are chronicled by a fella named Matthew Block, a former Urinteeteeist... This a link to Matthews paper.
www.squarecircles.com/matarticles/firstarticle/sourcesoftheurantiabook.htm
Although there is a lot of good science in the urantia, courtesy of Dr. Sadlers education... Sadders education; like is that of all men, is faillable, and therefor there is some wrong science in it. Ditto on the theology...

[CenterPointEX]

During the plagerizing process Swamp, he mucked a lot of it up into unintelligable babble, but if you look at Matthews paper you will see the "word for word" plagerizing and also the idea for idea plagerizing. Why would a fella do something like this? A curious question.

[CenterPointEX]

So...Bunch of deadbeats on this thread huh? Nobody's EVEN got a take on Urantia huh?
Any comments on the information I provided on Urantia Swamp? Did you check out the link?
. . . The authors of Urantia are actually two former Seventh Day Adventists, Dr. William S. Sadler and his brother-in-law, Wilfred Custer Kellogg, who lived with the Sadlers in Chicago. A lot of the material comes from Dr. Saddlers earlier works. Some of it comes from 7th Day Adventists doctrines, and a buttload of it comes plagerized from 15 other books, that are chronicled by a fella named Matthew Block, a former Urinteeteeist...

"If YOUR god has chosen the Jews as "His" People....what's the rest of us "outcasts" to do? Suck hind tit?"

This question is anticipated by Paul and specificly addressed in the book of Romans Swamp. The answer is that the Jews are not a people of one race... but rather they are a people of one mind... and yes, folks who refuse to be of the mind of Jesus Christ have a problem... I implore you Swamp, read the book of Romans and give us your take on it.
It's ALL a "curious question" CP. That's why I'm still lookin for the answer man. If you want answers Swamp go to the man... he will reveal himself to you, I promise you... Get on you knees and ask him if he isreal, then hang on.

[CenterPointEX]

"I got time to repent." Hattie Durham, Left Behind
Pre destination...
. . . Sometimes when we as a society, let folks go from prison, we know almost without a doubt that they won't stay free for long. We pretty much know that they wil go out and do another crime. Some we can pretty much predict wont be back... But still we let the bad dudes go Swamp.

.... Jesus told a parable about the kingdom of heaven Swamp.

.... While a farmer was sleeping, his enemy came a planted weeds among his wheat... The workers when discovering this came and asked the farmer if they should pull up the weeds. The farmer said no, because the roots of the wheat would be harmed in the process. Wait until the crop is ripe, then harvest the wheat to be brought unto me, and pull up the weeds and cast them into the fire.
. . . The wheat is those who have put their trust in Christ, the weeds are those who have not.

Even though he gave us free will Swamp, he knows from the beginning who will chose him and who will not. All he asks is for us to trust him. In the sense that he knows who will and who won't, he has predestined where we will go after this life here on earth. Where you will end up Swamp is predetermined by the Choice you make or have already made in Gods knowledge.

[CenterPointEX]

Swamp, God gave you the freedom of "Choice". What more could you ask for? What differance does it make, if he knows what choice you will make? You have the freedom to look me up and put an end to my earthly dialog. But you see Swamp, there are consequences to the "Choices" you make. Some choices and consequences are temporal, and some are eternal. Why does that make you angry? I guess for the same reason someone who ran a stop sign, gets angry when they get a ticket. Those who run the stop sign with a cop watching, are predestined to get a ticket.

[CenterPointEX]

Know CP...I'm likin your God less and less, the more you speak. Dude...I'll read Urantia a bit more. least they got a more realistic take than you appear to have. You're just "Real focused" CP. Have they Paved that ONE WAY Street you live on lately??
The strategy of the enemy has always been to conquer the minds of men, and sinful thinking is taking a fearful toll on our society. Witness some of the incredible positions being espoused by many of our leaders. As these ideas are implemented we see a decline in every area of life - from Clinton bangin interns in the white house, to Enron banging America, to Michael Jackson banging children. This is not a cause for despair, however; it is a warning that the church needs to wake up and bring more salt and light to our culture. As Christians, we are called to do more than just oppose these ideas. The Scriptures tell us that our weapons have divine power to demolish strongholds. We are to demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we are to "take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ" (2 Cor 10:4,5).

18"When the world hates you, remember it hated me before it hated you. 19The world would love you if you belonged to it, but you don't. I chose you to come out of the world, and so it hates you. 20Do you remember what I told you? `A servant is not greater than the master.' Since they persecuted me, naturally they will persecute you. And if they had listened to me, they would listen to you! 21The people of the world will hate you because you belong to me, for they don't know God who sent me. (John 15:18-21)
. And BTW...the sky is falling Chicken Little.

[CenterPointEX]

You're not takin anything for "thought" that is spoken here. You take NO other opinions to heart to EVEN think about. On the contrar... I do think about the things spoken here. I even examine the evidence. Swamp, your truth is based on your feelings, not on logic based on evidence. You feel very strongly about your truth. I can not argue with your feelings, your truth is your feelings... your feelings change... . It would be ludacris for me to say that you don't feel the way you do. But when you submit ideaologys, I examine the evidence upon which those ideas are based. Like Urantia, I have examined the evidence upon which your feelings are based. I have found the basis of Urantia wanting, in that the fella who wrote the book lied about it's source. The evidence proves that. I have examined the evidence upon which Buddists base their feelings... I have also found it wanting. Josheph Smith of the Mormans makes specific claims about an acient advanced civilization in North America. There are no records or archeological supports. The Book of Morman based on facts is B.S.
. . . I have also examined the evidence upon which the Bible is based. The Bible is the most documented book in history. You can go and examine the places where the acient civilizations existed. You can go look at the artifacts. You can read documents in the origional languages, unchanged for milleniums. The civilizations of which the Bible tells about, left recorded history. The evidence is endless and unrefutable. After examining the evidence one would have to be fool to say it was not truth.

. . . There is one religion though in which you can cast off guilt of any kind. A religion that claims all gods are the same. This religion allows free expression of self, sex, exploration. In fact, pride in self and self glorification are its tennants. It claims that faith in a single supreme god is not needed because you will one day be exaulted to god status your own self. Why submit yourself to some other gods rules, when you can be like him and make your own rules.

. . . Most recently its tennants are laid out in the Satanic Bible. But they were first outlined in Genisis chapter three.

. . . 1 Now Satan was a crafty being. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not partake of any Knowledge'?" 2 Thats not quite what God said, the woman said to Satan, "We may partake of knowledge in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not partake of the knowledge of good and evil, or you will die.' "

4(God is not like that, God is good) "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (And then you can make your own decisions...about what is good or bad...right or wrong, then your feelings will determine truth)

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the knowledge was good and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she partook. Then she shared this knowledge with her husband, who was with her, and he ingested it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they had become sinful and tried to hide, and cover up their bad deeds.

[CenterPointEX]

Hey Poster Child..., I know, I know..., I should know better but sometimes I just cain't help myself. I'm thinkin that poster of ya showing us your I.Q. is my favorite. Was that pic taken you in one of your former lifes?... Pray tell...Did the Buddist Monks tell you that you are closer, or farther away from Nirvanah in your current condition?
Your Poster Child...finally gets ya. :-) :-)
I know, I know...I'm slow....I actually THINK bout shit.

Truth does have a way of demolishing lies...
Just like the body has ways of getting rid of the unusable stuff one ingests.
Every morning I am reminded that yesterday, I ingested some unusable stuff.

[porky]

SWAMP,

This is going back and forth like a high school fued. Ole CP is nothing more than a contract planter sowing some seed for harvest. He will not reap this wheat, but he will get credit for the plantin. Swamp I pray that the holy spirit will come down on you and convict your soul. We are all worthy of that hell that you say doesnt exist, all of us. The only thing I have is this Romans chapter 10 verse 9. This isnt a game Swamp please just read it. My god is so great every aspect of him cant be explained. I dont try to put myself on his level. We are all sinners saved and unsaved only those with thier trust and faith in Jesus will go to heaven. That isnt a free ticket to sin at will, but from the time you are saved the holy spirit dwells within and you will be convicted to seek Jesus.

[CenterPointEX]

Thomas Jefferson was in charge of the board of education in Washington. Thomas Jefferson insisted on only two books that should be taught in Washington schools... The Bible... and Watts Hymnal? No, OGB the bible taught in Washington schools was not edited by Jeffersons razor... Yes Jefferson did edit a Bible with his razor... He wanted to see what was left after one took out all the supernatural... He was looking for the content of human reason in the Bible...

The evidence for the faith of our founding fathers is overwhelming and unrefutable... The evidence that we were founded as a Christian nation thus can not be denied. This country used the Bible as a text book in our public schools. The militant deChristianization of America is a recent phenomina. An attack by folks who want to shake off any sexual morality, that they may be free to express themselves sexually with any person, place, or thing, regaurdless of age race or gender...

Want to make em turn blue?... tell em that fecal matter introduced into the blood stream is not healthy under any circumstance.... then tell em this is an inevatable result of homosexual intercourse. The failure rate of condoms makes the risk factors unacceptable.

If you are a Christian... stand up and be counted this election year... It is crucial for all religions that desire to be free to worship as they please, to work to keep this nation under the rule of those who ascribe to Judeo\Christian morality... Because Judeo\Christian lays forth the bedrock that all men are created equal, endowed with inalienable rights given by that creator... That creator is honred in our constituion by the phrase
"In the year of our Lord"

[Orgnizdlbr]

CP, we were discussing "seperation of church and state" it seems our posts were somehow removed. I believe you made reference to Jefferson holding religious services in the H of R , I responded with Supreme court case citing "Good news club v. Milford central school district" to rebutt your statement that no church services are held in public school builings. Your claim was that the builings are rented. I submit that New York City school buildings are used every Sunday for services at no cost. And that is in "Liberal New York City".

You also asked about the intent of Jefferson cutting his bible with a razor and what his intent was. The neo-con right winger Evangelicals will profess that the intent was to deliver "Red Letter" portions of the New Testament to the Indians in order to convert them to Christianity. That is a fiction of David Barton's imagination.

Jefferson believed that kings and clergy turned the teachings of Christ into "abracadabra". Jefferson removed the letters of paul, Jude, John, and Peter and removed all of the miracles of Jesus....he was left with a book that had no miracles, no resurection, no annunciation, and no virgin birth.

That is not to say Jefferson was not a believer, he was, but he was opposed to the corruptions of Christianity. He told John Adams that to discover the true teachings of Jesus one had to abstract his words "from the rubbish in whicch it is buried," which was "as seperable from that as the diamond in the dunghill."

So, the question remains, were the Framers intent on seperating Church and state? Was the Framers intent to protect both entities from the corruptions of the other? The framers were fully aware of what occurred in the Massachusetts Bay colony and the oppression upon all that were not members of the state sponsored religion. They were also fully aware of what went on in merry old England and the Anglican church. They intended to keep Church and state seperate.

James Madison, close confidant and collaborator of Jefferson, who would ascend to the Presidency wrote the Constitution. He purposly made it a Godless document. He understood the corruption of both entities.....
Read Madison's Federalist Paper 10, his intent on the role of the State is clear.

You again state that the Constitution has the word God within it, the year of our Lord. If that is your argument, it is on a very shaky foundation.

The fact of the matter CP, is that to this day we write the date with the quote AD. Today is March 18, 2006 AD. AD is short for Anno Domini Nostri Iesu Christu, "in the year of our Lord" it was the standard signature of the time and had nothing to do with including God within the text of or within the enumerated articles of the Constitution.

[CenterPointEX]

In this day OGB, A.D. and B.C. are under assult, as well as " one naton under God" in the pledge, and our national motto, "In God We Trust" on our money..

The things that are being systematicly removed from public education, were there in Jeffersons day... Bible study, prayer, etc...

The evidence for the faith of our founding fathers is overwhelming and unrefutable... The evidence that we were founded as a Christian nation thus can not be denied. This country used the Bible as a text book in our public schools and its priciples were used as a model for our constitution.

The militant deChristianization of America is a recent phenomina.

In elementry school in the sixties, I learned of the plight of the pigrims, their faith in God, the importance of giving thanks to that God, the vision that God is involved in the day to day going ons of this world, and that God works thru those he has created... the Indians that helped the Pilgrims an example...

What do you make O.G.B., of Jeffersons insistance on the Bible and Watts Hymnal being taught in Washingtons public schools?

How does that affect of your belief that the Danbury letter gives credance to an interpretation of the 1st that prohibits just such a thing?

You make a point that concurs OGB, with the fact that The Year of our Lord refers to one Jesus Christ... reguardless to the reason why...

for this very reason anti Christian forces around the world are trying to change B.C. Before Christ... to B.C.E. ... Before Current Era.... etc.

[Orgnizdlbr]

How does that affect of your belief that the Danbury letter gives credance to an interpretation of the 1st that prohibits just such a thing?

You make a point that concurs OGB, with the fact that The Year of our Lord refers to one Jesus Christ... reguardless to the reason why...

My belief in the intent of the Danbury letter is that Jefferson was reaffirming that the State would never interfere with religion, and vice versa, any other interpretation or extrapolation of the words contained in the letter is pure unmitigated conjecture.

I make no point that concurs CP, my point is the antithesis of your position. The phrase AD was and is a custom of the time and was not meant to inject God, religion, state sponsored religion, or any other form of Christianity in the government, plain and simple.



The evidence for the faith of our founding fathers is overwhelming and unrefutable... The evidence that we were founded as a Christian nation thus can not be denied. This country used the Bible as a text book in our public schools and its priciples were used as a model for our constitution.



Where does "Christian Nation" reside within the text of the Constitution? The Framers were very precise when drafting the document, would they leave out such an important phrase if it was intended to be a Christian Nation?

You imply that history is revised to shape a view that is anti Christ, I assert that it is people like David Barton, the great right wing evangilical who gives tours of the Capitol, that revises history. Who is right, who is wrong, do some research.....

[Orgnizdlbr]

If you are a Christian... stand up and be counted this election year... It is crucial for all religions that desire to be free to worship as they please, to work to keep this nation under the rule of those who ascribe to Judeo\Christian morality... Because Judeo\Christian lays forth the bedrock that all men are created equal, endowed with inalienable rights given by that creator... That creator is honred in our constituion by the phrase



If you are an American....stand up and be counted...it is crucial to keep the "seperation of Church and state" intact. There is no room in government for the corruption of organized religion. There is no room in organized religion for the corruption of government.

The money injected into politics by so called Christian fundementalism is obscene, as obscene as is injected by any lobbying entity. Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and the pope seem to live pretty well on the money that their respective congregations donate.....obscenity at its finast!

[CenterPointEX]

Nature abhors a vacume... The church was planted, took root, and flourished in Europe... the church brought about a protracted period of peace and prosperity in Europe. Europe can no longer be considered christian... People have stopped going to church, stopped getting married, and stopped procreating. In order to rectify a negative population curve, Immigration laws have been loosened and Muslims escaping they tyrany of their Islam homalands are pouring in... Note the recent torching of Paris... By "Divine Province" or "Under the authority and protection of God", as stated in the opening line of the Declaration of Independance, America was born of Judeo Christian morals. It's goverment and laws were formed by men of Faith in Jesus Christ. These men modeled our constitution and goverment on biblical priciples, and based our laws on Judeo Christian morality. By the authority of those priciples and laws, all men are considered created equal with inalienable rights endowed to them by their creator. The creator refered to in our constituion "Our Lord" Jesus Christ... This country from the get go, operated under the guise of being a people of Judeo Christian herratige. The Bible was taught in public schools, teachers and kids prayed togather in the classroom, our family law mirrored that taught to us in the Bible. The family, one man, one woman in marriage raising and nuturing its children was the basic building block that made this country good and great. A Christian Nation tolerates and allows men under its jurisdiction to worship as they please... A Nation that does not operate under Judeo Christian principles, does not allow this kind of freedom... There is no nation on earth that operates under goverment formed by another religion be it Athiestic, Agnostic, Islamic, Hindue, or otherwise where these kinds of freedoms are available...
"Seperation of Church and State" as it is being currently defined by folks like yourself O.G.B., is a recent phenomenon that has come to its own in the last fifty years... If that for which you beat the drums comes to pass O.G.B., if all link to Judeo Christian morality is removed from our government, laws, education system, and national identity, then we will become a nation of people who are governed by religion other than of faith in "Our Creator", "Our Lord" Jesus Christ... be it Agnostic, Athiestic, Hellenistic, Islamic, or otherwise... But unlike under the rule of Judeo/Christian morality, in the case of any other reigning religion,no ideology but that of the current reigning religion will be tolerated... Simply look at the history of womens rights under any other ideology through out history.

Ya.... vote for an Agnostic, Atheistic America... Vote to remove any trace of Judeo/Christian values and principles from all public forums, laws, courtyards, city halls, pledges, mottos, family structures, professional and medical ethics etc... Outlaw the preaching of Romans 1:26 like other Agnostic controlled countries have done...
Yes...Outlaw salt... that which a Christian is called to be, a preservative, preventative of rot and decay and America will begin to rot from the inside out..."Can't happen" you say! Look around you fellow Americans... It already is... Gay pride parades; the poster children of rot and decay, are an example of us celebrating evil abominations... These folks dip thier tool of hope in a pile of feces... Truly they reap what they sow... or do they sow rot and decay into that which they rip? Ya, a little salt would burn, but it would kill infection...

... ... ... The Ideaology that this is all there is... that there is no life after death... is generating hoplessness in the American Phyce... Evident in the morality of our youth and our CEOs...

Viva la Survival of the Fittest...

Yes, stand up and be counted... Vote for an Agnostic America... That will be the Day!

"In that Day"... If you are a Christian, you will know the meaning of the phrase "In that Day"

[Orgnizdlbr]

"Seperation of Church and State" as it is being currently defined by folks like yourself O.G.B., is a recent phenomenon that has come to its own in the last fifty years...



Is that so? Well if that is the case, show me some tangible evidence, not the Neo-Con Evengilical rewriting of history.

I believe it is the other way around CP, there was no God on US currenecy until 1863, there was no God in the pledge of allegiance until the year after I was born, 1954. So it is folks like me that rewrite the intent of history? I dont think so.

In 1793, a critic of Thomas Jefferson, a Rev. Mason of New York stated that "from the Constitution of the United States, it is impossible to ascertain what God we worship, or whether we own a God at all." IN 1793, 6 years after ratification of the document, but folks like me are twisting history?

Delegates from the National Reform Association presented President Abraham Lincoln with a proposal to amend the preamble of the Constitution to acknowledge God and the Lord Jesus Christ as governor among nations, that was in 1864, Lincoln politely dismissed the Association and he never acted on the proposal.

So who is it that assaults the Constitution? Is it people like me? People who hold in high regard the intent of the Framers? I know most of the men who were the Framers were Christians. The fact that the Framers were Christian amplifies the fact that they were smart enough to understand that government and religion are seperate. They were close enough to the burnings at the stake in the colonies like Massachussetts of people who did not conform or agree with the state sponsored religion. They knew better than to draft a document recognizing any state invovment in religion.

BTW, an 82 year crusade by the National Reform Assoc., was picked up by the Nat. Assoc. of Evangilicals in 1945. Twice, in 1947 and 1954, it staged unsuccsessful campaigns to add to the Constitution the words "This nation divinely recognizes the authority and law of Jesus Christ, Savior and Ruler of Nations, through whom are bestowed the blessings of Almighty God." So it is people like myself that are attempting to change the intent of the Constitution?

In a very shrewd and calculated reversal of its position the Christian right has totally reversed its strategy. In a staggering flip flop, it now celebrates the Constitution by denying its Godless foundation. Having lost many times in its effort to to put God and Christ into the persistantly vilified godless Constitution and an atheistic national government, the Christian right today embraces the Constitution and its authors, rewriting history as it does so. Its adherents have falsely dressed the founders of American government and the Constitution in Godly Christian garb, which, they argue, later Godless generations have systematically torn off. America today will suffer God's wrath, we are now told, unless it returns to its founders abiding vision of Christian American politics. Such is the distortion of history offered by today's preachers of religious correctness.

CP, you ascribe to the revisionist history as stated above. If you can, supply me with rebbutal argument to refute what I say.



Ya.... vote for an Agnostic, Atheistic America... Vote to remove any trace of Judeo/Christian values and principles from all public forums, laws, courtyards, city halls, pledges, mottos, family structures, professional and medical ethics etc... Outlaw the preaching of Romans 1:26 like other Agnostic controlled countries have done...
Yes...Outlaw salt... that which a Christian is called to be, a preservative, preventative of rot and decay and America will begin to rot from the inside out..."Can't happen" you say! Look around you fellow Americans... It already is... Gay pride parades; the poster children of rot and decay, are an example of us celebrating evil abominations... These folks dip thier tool of hope in a pile of feces... Truly they reap what they sow... or do they sow rot and decay into that which they rip? Ya, a little salt would burn, but it would kill infection...


So my defense of the Constitution equates to an apperent recognition that homosexual activity is to be condoned? Cmon CP, you can do better than that....well, maybe you cant, you resorted to what all the right wing Christians resort to when you have no good argument. I, frankly, find that aberrant.

[CenterPointEX]

Is that so? Well if that is the case, show me some tangible evidence, not the Neo-Con Evengilical rewriting of history. It is not that history has been rewritten, but rather that history has been deleted. I repeat, Thomas Jefferson insisted that the Bible be taught in public schools in Washington...I learned O.G.B. in elementry school of the faith of the Pilgrims... No longer is the Bible taught in public schools. No longer is the faith of the Pilgrims mentioned in elementry school history books. Show you some tangible evidence?... Show me if you can O.G.B., proof that two weeks worth of posts have disappeared from Powerlineman.com... At this Point; just like the historicity of the Bible, believing this is the case, can only be a matter of faith that can be attested to by wittnesses, but can not be proven...
... ... ... ... Like I said, nature abhors a vacume...It takes more faith to believe in Atheism, than it does to believe in the Judeo Christian God... A Universal negative can not be proven, therefor it becomes a matter of faith to purport such a thing. That makes Atheism a religion... America will have a religion whether or not we hold the God of Judeo/Christian historicty to be our God.

Just curious O.G.B. I have not heard you flat out say it... Do you deny that this nation was founded as a Christian nation, by Christians who wove Biblical principals into our Constitution, Laws and form of Government?

Would you support a constitutional ammenment banning same sex marriages?

[Orgnizdlbr]

It is not that history has been rewritten, but rather that history has been deleted. I repeat, Thomas Jefferson insisted that the Bible be taught in public schools in Washington...I learned O.G.B. in elementry school of the faith of the Pilgrims... No longer is the Bible taught in public schools. No longer is the faith of the Pilgrims mentioned in elementry school history books. Show you some tangible evidence?... Show me if you can O.G.B., proof that two weeks worth of posts have disappeared from Powerlineman.com... At this Point, believing this is the case, can only be a matter of faith that can be attested to by wittnesses, but can not be proven...
... ... ... ... Like I said, nature abhors a vacume...It takes more faith to believe in Atheism, than it does to believe in the Judeo Christian God... A Universal negative can not be proven, therefor it becomes a matter of faith to purport such a thing. That makes Atheism a religion... America will have a religion whether or not we hold the God of Judeo/Christian historicty to be our God.

Just curious O.G.B. I have not heard you flat out say it... Do you deny that this nation was founded as a Christian nation, by Christians who wove Biblical principals into our Constitution, Laws and form of Government?

Would you support a constitutional ammenment banning same sex marriages?

I have not said that the nation was not founded on Judeo-Christian values because it certainly was. But that is not the discourse we persue. We are talking about the "wall of seperation" are we not? Of course morality entered into the Framers drafting of the Constitution, but the state cannot infringe upon religion or legislate morality. Morality as defined by the right wing Christian fundementalists is strictly an ecclesiastical issue. Pat Robertson boast that 90% of our nation is Christian with 50% of that number attending Church weekly. If that is so, if that type of behavior, attending church services is so essential to the moral fiber of this nation, why then do we have so many unwed teen mothers? Why do we have inner city crime? Why does corporate America rape business? We are 90% Christian, why are we so screwed up? You can pontificate from your lofty pulpit all you want. You can quote chapter and verse what the neo-con evangilicals spew as truth, go back in time, read the publications of the period, the fact of the matter is there was, is, and will always be immoral behavior in society. It is a human choice CP, it is my choise the worship the God I choose to. it is not your choice for me or any other American. That is what the Framers intended. Religion and politics dont mix.

BTW, I dont know where you are. But I believe you are in the south. Are you telling me that in the Liberal Northeast where I am the Pilgrims story is still taught, but it is not taught in the bible belt? I dont believe it.

I asked if you could rebut my statement with fact. I see you cannot. I thought as much.

You ask if I would support a constitutional amnendment to ban same sex marraige. I do not support any amendment to the Constitution. The Framers were precise in the document, it needs no meddling from modern liberals, conservatives, Democrats or Republicans, it stands on its own. I, you see, consider the document the the overiding force behind the freedoms enumerated within it, it needs no intrusion from posturing politicos.

My question, were there any homosexuals in the nation during the drafting ot the Constitution?

[CenterPointEX]

I have not said that the nation was not founded on Judeo-Christian values because it certainly was. But that is not the discourse we persue. We are talking about the "wall of seperation" are we not? Of course morality entered into the Framers drafting of the Constitution, but the state cannot infringe upon religion or legislate morality. Fact is, the state can and does legislate morality. The question is whose morality will we legislate?
... .. Who is it according to the first ammendment, that can not make laws respecting the establishment of religion or the free the free exercise therof?

Answer... Congress

State goverment is free to do as it pleases. All State Constitutions, without exception refer to God...The states were free to do as they pleased. In North Carolina until 1876 a person was not qualified to hold office unless he believed in the divine insperation of both the old and new testiments. Nothing in the Constitution precluded North Carolinas from making this a qualification to hold office there.

John Jay the first Supreme court chief justace appoointed by George Washington said, God in his providence has given us a Christian nation and it behoves us as christians to prefer and select Christian to rule over us.

[Orgnizdlbr]

Fact is, the state can and does legislate morality. The question is whose morality will we legislate?
... .. Who is it according to the first ammendment, that can not make laws respecting the establishment of religion or the free the free exercise therof?

Answer... Congress

State goverment is free to do as it pleases. All State Constitutions, without exception refer to God...The states were free to do as they pleased. In North Carolina until 1876 a person was not qualified to hold office unless he believed in the divine insperation of both the old and new testiments. Nothing in the Constitution precluded North Carolinas from making this a qualification to hold office there.



And for whom does congress speak? Who is the legislative body in the tripartite for of government that makes federal law?

Does the Federal Constitution supercede any State constitution?
Which Connstitution prevails where state and federal constitutions are in conflict?

Does any state constitution establish a state religion?

[CenterPointEX]

“…the legislative body in the tripartite of government” This tripartite body is a principle derived from Scripture... In the trinity, which part of the trinity supersedes the other? Answer: This is an illegitimate question. They while having distinct personalities, are one and the same, as in convention, States discern the legitimacy and authority of the federal constitution.
... But the Point is apparent that the States, under the watchful eye of the first amendment, have to right to, and do, include reference to God in their constitutions. This principle was not lost on Thomas Jefferson, the author of the Danbury letter and collaborator to the first amendment. This is evident in Jefferson’s exercising this right by insisting that the Bible be taught in Washington’s public schools. In retrospect though, the States in order not to be under the educational jurisdiction of the Feds have the option not to accept federal funding... In this manor the Federal governement can hold hostage the curriculum of the States public schools.
And for whom does congress speak? The State of Carolina did at one time have a statute which called for a specific belief as a qualification for office. It is the goal of the left; currently represented by the Democratic Party, that congress would speak for the religion of Atheism if it can get that far, or to settle for the religion of agnosticism at the very least. .

[Orgnizdlbr]

This tripartite body is a principle derived from Scripture... In the trinity, which part of the trinity supersedes the other? Answer: This is an illegitimate question. They while having distinct personalities, are one and the same, as in convention, States discern the legitimacy and authority of the federal constitution.
... But the Point is apparent that the States, under the watchful eye of the first amendment, have to right to, and do, include reference to God in their constitutions. This principle was not lost on Thomas Jefferson, the author of the Danbury letter and collaborator to the first amendment. This is evident in Jefferson’s exercising this right by insisting that the Bible be taught in Washington’s public schools. In retrospect though, the States in order not to be under the educational jurisdiction of the Feds have the option not to accept federal funding... In this manor the Federal governement can hold hostage the curriculum of the States public schools. It is the goal of the left; currently represented by the Democratic Party, that congress would speak for the religion of Atheism if it can get that far, or to settle for the religion of agnosticism at the very least. .

Tripartite as in Executive, Judicial, and Legislative.....

When the state constitution and federal constitution are at odds, what document previals?

Doesnt Congress speak for the people?

And it is the goal of the right wing neo-evangilicals to have congress legislate into law an official religion, to mandate that citizens support the state church with tax dollars with a mandatory tithe. That is your agenda, this is America, leave me worship who I wish to, and if I care to be agnostic or athiest or diest dont tax me to fund your "Official" religion. That is the the way the Framers saw it plain and simple, any other extrapolation is twisting history.


BTW, have you noticed that there are really only 2 people posting to this thread now? Not much interest, except for Swamp.

[dirtdobber]

I would like to say just a few things in regards to this thread. was raised baptist married a catholic had to have divorce granted thru catholic CHURCH. I believe in what the good book says but I also believe that our GOV. is going to eventually break all of us from viewing things in our own way & convince us to see it there way I be damn if I will stand for it. I still believe in an EYE FOR AN EYE. bleeding heart liberals have ruined the country that our for fathers faught so hard to keep free!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RELIGION , POLITICS & FREINDSHIPS do not mix1 :rolleyes:

[CenterPointEX]

Originally Posted by CenterPointEX

This tripartite body is a principle derived from Scripture... In the trinity, which part of the trinity supersedes the other? Answer: This is an illegitimate question. They while having distinct personalities, are one and the same, as in convention, States discern the legitimacy and authority of the federal constitution.
... But the Point is apparent that the States, under the watchful eye of the first amendment, have the right to, and do, include reference to God in their constitutions. This principle was not lost on Thomas Jefferson, the author of the Danbury letter and collaborator to the first amendment. This is evident in Jefferson’s exercising this right by insisting that the Bible be taught in Washington’s public schools. In retrospect though, the States in order not to be under the educational jurisdiction of the Feds have the option not to accept federal funding... In this manor the Federal governement can hold hostage the curriculum of the States public schools. It is the goal of the left; currently represented by the Democratic Party, that congress would speak for the religion of Atheism if it can get that far, or to settle for the religion of agnosticism at the very least. .....

Tripartite as in Executive, Judicial, and Legislative ... Exactly a triune body of three distinct parts that comprise one entity... Our government is modeled after The Holy trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... Three distinct persons that comprise one God...
When the state constitution and federal constitution are at odds, what document prevails? You are correct sir that the federal constitution prevails... but by the same token, in convention, States grant the federal constitution it's authority. In the case of the Holy Trinity, if the the Father and the Son are at odds, which prevails? This is an illegitimate question in that they can not be at odds because they are part of the same entity.
Doesn’t Congress speak for the people? Sometimes, and sometimes they sell themselves out to special interest groups that do not represent a majority such as gay right advocates...at which time they get drummed out of office... And someone who speaks for the majority replaces them as evidenced by our last election that furthered the casue of us neo evgelicals?. That is why I am urging Christians to get off their duffs and vote for the candidates recommended by our first supreme court Justice John Day who said,
".God in his providence has given us a Christian nation and it behooves us as christians to prefer and select Christians to rule over us."
Originally Posted by O.G.B. And it is the goal of the right wing neo-evangelicals to have congress legislate into law an official religion, to mandate that citizens support the state church with tax dollars with a mandatory tithe... I care to be agnostic or atheist or deists, don’t tax me to fund your "Official" religion. That is the way the Framers saw it plain and simple, any other extrapolation is twisting history.
Tithes are optional BTW... It is not the desire of evangelicals to establish an official religion... we simply seek to retain our heritage, and the Judeo/Christian morality passed down to us by our forefathers in our government, law, and legal systems... Because of the apathy of the moral majority; yes, this country is still populated by a Judeo/Christian majority, our courts and our educational system have been hijacked by the left, who are at this time taking your tax dollars to fund their religion... What religion you ask? Agnosticism, Atheism, and Darwinism are religions, in that their principles can not be proven and therefore can only be accepted by faith.

... Darwinism for example has been blown out of he water by Science... Molecular biologists have discovered; where they hoped to find simplicity in the cell structure to make evolution plausible, that inside the cell there are over three trillion machines... While there are thousands of papers describing these machines in scientific journals, there is not one paper that attempts to explain how these machines could have evolved by Darwinic processes... Check the current Discover mag to see red blood cells found in TRex bones... Cells that can survive no more than ten thousand years... By faith current palientology dates TRex extinction at 65 million years ago.


BTW, have you noticed that there are really only 2 people posting to this thread now? Not much interest, except for Swamp. Yes, we are the only ones posting, but did you notice the number of hits on this thread? Way more that ourselves and Swamp could muster...

…. .. Your wit and your knowledge betray your claim to be just a dumb Yankee lineman BTW…

__________________

[Orgnizdlbr]

Tithes are optional BTW... It is not the desire of evangelicals to establish an official religion... we simply seek to retain our heritage, and the Judeo/Christian morality passed down to us by our forefathers in our government, law, and legal systems...



It may not be your desire to establish an official religion, I dont believe the same holds true for people like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and David Barton.

In the true sense tithes are optional, but back in the early days of the Massechussetts Bay colony, when they burned people at the stake, tithes were not "optional" You paid or were ostrasized.


Yes, we are the only ones posting, but did you notice the number of hits on this thread? Way more that ourselves and Swamp could muster...

I had not noticed the hits on the thread....thanks for pointing that out...good point.

..
Your wit and your knowledge betray your claim to be just a dumb Yankee lineman BTW

No CP, just another dumb Lineman......

[CenterPointEX]

Neither is marriage required today in intimate relationships, but there was a day when folks living in such a relationship outside marriage were ostracized, and we were a better country for it... Not to defend the actions of the Mass Bay Colony in that I don't really know that much about them...But if Ted Kennedy is any representation of what they were all about I understand... .. .
In the true sense tithes are optional, but back in the early days of the Massachusetts Bay colony, when they burned people at the stake, tithes were not "optional" You paid or were ostracized. Any body who would force someone to tithe knows nothing of the Bible. God abhors anything you would return to Him against your will. Your body, mind and soul included. For this reason Cain’s sacrifice was not accepted in Genesis. Cain was a little miffed about that to say the least. A lot of folks miss the gist of what happened there... "Able brought the fatted calf", one that was fed out and prime beef I imagine... Not that being a cattleman was a loftier trade than being a farmer, but the text says, Cain brought "some fruit" of the garden... not the first fruits, some stuff that was overripe I imagine... God does not need or desire of these things, but rather He seeks a heart that trusts Him enough to give of the first fruits. After all, all things come from God, will He not care for his children? We return what he has first given us... Life included... For this reason also, Martin Luther sought to reform the Church that he was a servant to. A church that to this day still retains some of the attitudes towards the tithing he sought to reform.
... I have never studied the faith of the Mass. Bay Colony, pray tell how did they come to the conclusion that there was a such a thing as witches, and that they should be burned at the stake? Were these folks Christians? If so what brand?

[Orgnizdlbr]

Ok, I just did and google search survey on the witch burning thing... 25 folks were hung in Mass.. Seems there was a period between 1550 & 1700 in which hysteria took hold of folks of all sects of society... Prodestant, Secterain, and Catholic all over the world, who came to fear an evil in thier midst, real or imagined...
... ... I believe most of it of it was imagined, but Satan worship is not imagined. There were then and there are now folks who ascribe to such a thing... Those who ascribe to this religion hold life in low reguard... Get yourself a copy of the Satanic Bible if you have the nerve for it... If group or sect of this nature set up shop and came of age in or near a neighborhood near you, It would freak the bejeebers out of ya... Especially if the folks practicing it were devout and overt in their practice... There were then and there are now folks who confess to practice this religion. While I don't condon the actions of those folks during that tumulos period, I can understand how the times were ripe for such hysteria... A Jeffery Daumer, or Charles Manson on the loose in ones geographic location, would cause one to look with fear and discriminating spirit on the Church of Satan at the corner of First and Main... If today folks started dieing in mass around us, with no explanation, we would become hysterical. The plauges in and around that time fit just such a bill... Confessed Witches claim to have made a pact with Satan... real or imagined...

The aspect that i am interested in,purely in relationship to our discussion, was the fact that a state sponsored religion condoned the practices that occured during that time frame in Mass. I am aware that peoples fears can make them do things they would normally be repulsed by. The scope of my discussion was targeted to the intent of the Framers. Remember, they were much closer in time to the infractions perpetrated by the state sponsored church of the colony. That was also on old Tom Jeff's mind when he wrote the Danbury letter. The Baptists were not part of the "in crowd" they looked for assurances from the President with regards to any "State Sponsored" religion. He gave it......

As far as satanic worship goes and aquiring and reading the satanic bible, I have no desire or interest in the subject. I'll put it to you this way CP, I know where I came from and I know where I'm going. I know who the Creator is and I have no need to waste my time with fools who would consider satan as anything other than he is.

BTW, I have a hard time putting the words satanic and bible in the same sentence, for me they just dont go together....

[dirtdobber]

kind of like to me you 2 guys should start pming each other being that you are the only 2 posting.

[CenterPointEX]

... ... Could you please, reconcile for me, how the author of the Danbury letter, and collaborator to the first ammendment, saw fit to insist that the Bible; unedited by his razor, and Watts hymnal, be taught in public schools in Washington... How could Thomas Jefferson do such a thing if he ascribed to your definition of the first ammendment? You can not, and you will not answer this because any answer you come up with, will be an oxymorinic strawman...

. . . . On State Sponsered Withch burning, I made the Point, or so I thought I did, that secular governments and secular courts around the world, as well as ecclesiastical courts were smoking witches... So, Christians were commiting the same sins as none Christians... Imagine that? Kinda like today, Christians and non Christians practice gay and lesbianism, a practice that is killing these misinformed folks in dispaportionate numbers...

....Like I said, there are two translations... One basicly adheres to God said, and man wrote it down... and the other to man wrote it down and some of it was what God said... Judas purported to be an Apostle... There are folks folks sitting under the Christian Bannor who have no stomache for the Bible...

.... .. The state sponsered Athiest religions of Communism/Socialism have never worked anywhere they have been tried... The Christian nation has... Ummm let me see, how many nations have been founded on the principles and morals of Christianity by Christians? Can you name one OGB? How about two? The State Sponsered Religions have done some damage to the faith and some have been persacuted unto their lives by them... But the Communist/Socialist governments; which are all athiest and say so in their constitutions, have smoked more folks than all the world wars and state sponsered religions combined...

... ... .. The left/democratic party has enacted legislation inspired by their religion; Athiesm, that currenty kills one third of the folks conceived each year... This is a greater number than the communissts/socialists ever even dreamed of... This religion is cruelly mutilating one third of the babies conceived in the Uninted States every year.. four thousand a day... Yes, OGB... Athiesm is a religion! Darwinism is a religion! They are theologys of faith, with creeds.. They are sponsered in our public education system by your tax dollars... Congress is passing laws respecting this establishment of religion. This Athiestic religion, is trying to enact legislation doing away with the current definition of marriage and family... The current definitions of marriage and family were garnered from the Bible... A religious ceromony, a moral tidbit, crammed down Americas throat by them damned Christians... What I don't get is why they even want to try to secualrize one of the Sacrements... Wouldn't that give creedence to its sancticity?.... And this religion seeks to remove every vestige of opposing religions from the very face of our public forums, The are gonna have to get a pretty big load of white wash to cover the faces of our court and government building across this nation that are loaded with Quotes from the Bible, Ten Commandments or otherwise... Which this religoion has sought to accomplish by loading the courts with their allies...

[Orgnizdlbr]

kind of like to me you 2 guys should start pming each other being that you are the only 2 posting.

Over 1690 hits on this thread DD. Its only discussion by a few Lineman with some opinions on how our great nation was founded, if you dont care for it, dont read it. Otherwise, you may get some insightful information, as I have, reading this thread.



CenterPointEX... ... Could you please, reconcile for me, how the author of the Danbury letter, and collaborator to the first ammendment, saw fit to insist that the Bible; unedited by his razor, and Watts hymnal, be taught in public schools in Washington... How could Thomas Jefferson do such a thing if he ascribed to your definition of the first ammendment? You can not, and you will not answer this because any answer you come up with, will be an oxymorinic strawman...

Jefferson understood that the Nation and all society needed moral guidance. I have never said Jefferson was not a religious man. But you confuse ones religious beliefs and morality when you make the assumption that the bible guided the Framers in the manner the bible guides you. The fact that Jefferson read the bible and other literary works from which he formed his opinions does not mean he did not ascribe to a strict "seperation" opinion. As for as the oxymoronic strawman goes, Jefferson relied much more on the works of Locke than he did on the Bible. You are obviously single minded in your view that the bible is the only source of guidance that is the truth. Make no assumptions that Jefferson saw it the same way.

Lets take the 10 commandments for example: Contrary to what many people say the 10 Commandments are not the only basis of our law and only in a general way speak to commonly heald moral codes.

The 1st 4 commandments are specific to the religion of ancient Isreal, they are not observed in their entirety today by many american jews and most American Christians. The Lord God who delivered the Jews from Egypt is historically, philosophically, and theologically different from the Trinitarian God worshipped by the Christians. The majority of religiious Americans have no problem with graven images, and they do alot of work on Sunday, just stop by your local mall on the sabbath and take note. As for the other commandments: to honor parents, not kill or steal or lie about ones nieghbor pass as moral in just about anyones book. Adultery, coveting a neighbor's wife or manservant or maidservant support family values but are those the type of instruction for grade school kids? If discussions turn to sexual behavior, some one will surely point out the greater moral menace to society than adultery is practicing safe sex.

Those who's argue that the commandments are the source of American law are not on a sound foundation. The most important source of our law is the English Common law tradition and its codification in Blackstone's Commentaries which make no reference to Moses. Like the Framers, early judges were more likely to cite Enlightenment writers like Locke and Montesquieu than the Torah. If we are serious about the Old Testament as the source of law, thare are many specific anathemas in Leviticus and Numbers that we need to get serious about after centuries of neglect.

Again, dont cofuse Jefferson's and the Framer"s beliefs with what the intent of the establishment clause was. It was clearly a "Wall of Seperation", the phrase Jefferson himself used to the minority Baptists.

[CenterPointEX]

The Davinnci Code in its opening lines makes some allegations and hails them as fact, then spends the rest of the time in retrospection of those supposed facts... Your last post contains a lot of rat trails, but I will stick for the moment with the Question posed in my most recent post...

....The fact that Jefferson read the bible and other literary works from which he formed his opinions does not mean he did... ascribe to a strict "seperation" opinion. As far as the oxymoronic strawman goes,...Again, dont cofuse Jefferson's and the Framer"s beliefs with what the intent of the establishment clause was. It was clearly a "Wall of Seperation", the phrase Jefferson himself used to the minority Baptists. My Point had naught to do with weather or not, Jefferson garnered his opinions from the Bible and from litteratty works... You laid forth a lot of words to circumvent the thrust of the question... So, I will ask it again,... your answer will have to be limited to an attack on my person, questioning the source of my allegation, or a concession to the Point...

How is it possible, that Thomas Jefferson could have exercised his postion; as head of Washingtons public schools, to require that the Bible unedited by his razor, and Watts hymnal, be taught in those public schools funded by tax dollars, if this same Thomas Jefferson apprehended the first ammendment the same way OGB does?


Let me spell out "Oxymoron" for you...

Thomas Jefferson believed, as infered by the Danbury letter, and in the first ammendment on which he collaborated, that the States have no bussiness supporting a school system that teaches the Bible in its curriculem.

Thomas Jefferson exercised his power as head of the washington Public school system, to insist that the Bible be taught along with Watts Hymnal...

[Orgnizdlbr]

My Point had naught to do with weather or not, Jefferson garnered his opinions from the Bible and from litteratty works... You laid forth a lot of words to circumvent the thrust of the question... So, I will ask it again,... your answer will have to be limited to an attack on my person, questioning the source of my allegation, or a concession to the Point...

How is it possible, that Thomas Jefferson could have exercised his postion; as head of Washingtons public schools, to require that the Bible unedited by his razor, and Watts hymnal, be taught in those public schools funded by tax dollars, if this same Thomas Jefferson apprehended the first ammendment the same way OGB does?

Thomas Jefferson exercised his power as head of the washington Public school system, to insist that the Bible be taught along with Watts Hymnal...

First and foremost, why do you feel that I would attack your person? I believe I have demonstrated that I hold no Ill will because you and I have differing opinions. If this discussion we are having is more than just discussion I have totally missed the point. Early in the discourse you made some remarks about Catholics, I told you I didnt particularly care for it, to your credit you no longer cast aspersions at my Religion. You havent infered I was a Communist in a while, I appreciate that. If there is more to this discussion, let me in on it. As I said, I hold no Ill will. I believe the discourse can be educational, but I have no illussions about changing your mind, as I assume you know you wont change mine. That being said, lets get to your question.

This is the first time you have equivocated the time period in which you believe that Old T Jeff required the Bible and watts hymnal in the DC schools. Here is the down and dirty. It never happened. Some modern day evangilicals who's purpose it is to discredit Jefferson and the "Wall of Seperation" have extrapolated that it is fact, but it isnt. The first record of the Bible being used in the DC schools as part of a curriculum is the year 1812. 3 Years after Jefferson left the board for retirement.

I might also add, there is nothing in any of Jefferson's writing in his plans for public education in Virginia either before or after his Presidency that connects Jefferson and the use of the bible in public school.

So if Jefferson's plan for Virginia is devoid of reference to the use of the Bible in Public School, why would he require it for DC only? The story is fiction. There is no proof to authenticate the story.

Jefferson goes on to establish the University of Virginia....no school of Theology...why do you think he did that?

One of the people that I have alluded to as being a neo-evangilical is David Barton. Mr. Barton has put forth a view that Jefferson required the bible in DC. He has no proof whatsoever. Christianity is better served by telling the truth, not making it up as you go. Another fine example of a Christian is he.....

[CenterPointEX]

Fact, Jefferson was head of the Washington school board...
Fact, By your source, the Bible was taught in Washington Schools during a period of Jeffersons influence...though maybe not during his official capacity.

Jefferson was no political wimp... If indeed, he saw the endeared "wall" being breeched, he would have put a stop to it, reitirement or not..

The following is an excerpt from Jeffersons post retirement letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper pertaining to Virginias pending University to which you refered...


In our university you know there is no Professorship of Divinity. A handle has been made of this, to disseminate an idea that this is an institution, not merely of no religion, but against all religion. Occasion was taken at the last meeting of the Visitors, to bring forward an idea that might silence this calumny, which weighed on the minds of some honest friends to the institution. In our annual report to the legislature, after stating the constitutional reasons against a public establishment of any religious instruction, we suggest the expediency of encouraging the different religious sects to establish, each for itself, a professorship of their own tenets, on the confines of the university, so near as that their students may attend the lectures there, and have the free use of our library, and every other accommodation we can give them; preserving, however, their independence of us and of each other

Jefferson understood, that the Word could and had on occaision been hijacked in the vein of the paradiem first illustrated in Genisis Chapter Three, where Satan spoke to Eve, "Hath God Said... This is what God meant..." In modern venacular, " I know what God said, but let me tell you what He really meant by that."
... ... . Reading Jeffersons writings, I see that yes indeed he feared a government that laid forth heresy and required its subjects to swear allegance to that heresy. He sought to provide an estuary where falsehoods would always be illuminated by the truth. Making this a reality, we walk a razors edge, in that in this venue, truth and falsehood must be granted equal lattitude... With teachings like my friend OGB ascribes to, Truth is being held hostage by the promise of federal funding or not,... leaving free reign only in limited hands...
... ... . Like I have pointed out before, Christianity as taught by those who hold the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God; alluded to in the Virginia state constitution, not only tolerates, but welcomes "with Christian Love and forebearance" those of all beliefs in its jurisdiction. Thus, a nation whos' liberty, and moral fiber is derivied from the Words of the Bible, held true, inerrant and unchanging, will remain a free, tolerant, estuary where truth will have free reign to illuminate any marauding falsehoods...

... ... A nation in the grip of the religion of Athiesm, paraded as Socialism or Communism, will tolerate only its stated creeds and ideology... Athiesm will not tolerate Christianity. This is evident without exception in every nation under Athiesms jurisdiction. History bears this out in the mass execution of those who have disagreed with the tenets of its particular brand of Athiesm... Those residing under the wing of Islam suffer an even worse fate... The execution of converts to Christianity... Because it has flung Christianity out the window... Europe is in the grip of an Ismamic foothold, evidenced by the riots in France...
.
A true government of total seperation of Church and State falls off the razors edge and becomes a government against all religion. As nature abhors a vacume, the religions of the State becomes that of the reigning politicos...

Jefferson understood and struggled with the delicacy of our endeavor... his writings reek of this struggle... Jefferson ascribed also to the Virginia State Constitution...

Excerpt from the Virginia State Constitiution:
That religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can only be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and, therefore, all men are equally entitled to the free execise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love and chairity towards each other.

This makes clear that the dictates of the Virgina State Constitution are derived from a source currently banned from study in Virginia public schools...

Excerpt for the New Jersey State Constitution:
We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy,... do ordain and establish this Constitution.

Texas:
Humbly invoking the blessings of Almighty God, the people of the State of Texas, do ordain and establish this Constitution... No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office,... provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.
... .. All men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own consciences

Every State Consstitution in the Uninted States of America alludes to the Divine Providence (Authority granted by and under the protection of Almighty God) stated in the Declaration of Independance... and God Almighty whose son is refered to in the closing volley of our Constitution(common custom not withstanding) "The Year of Our Lord" Jesus Christ,... "Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions,...And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor... The year of our Lord 1776

One has to jump through some vexing philosphical hoops to come to the conclusion that this country was not founded and sustained on and by a Judeo/Christian bedrock... The Rock rejected by the builders...made capstone/cornerstone... The Rock upon which every proud man has or will someday stumble, yours truly included...

Those who repent of thier pride, and put their trust in Christ will be forgiven of their sins and crowned Saints...

[CenterPointEX]

The phrase AD was and is a custom of the time and was not meant to inject God,...or any other form of Christianity in the government, plain and simple....Where does "Christian Nation" reside within the text of the Constitution? .... If this were the case, they would have used: A.D. but they chose to spell it out. "The Year of Our Lord" There are plenty of official documents then and now that do not use A.D. or The Year of our Lord...

[Orgnizdlbr]

... ... . Reading Jeffersons writings, I see that yes indeed he feared a government that laid forth heresy and required its subjects to swear allegance to that heresy. He sought to provide an estuary where falsehoods would always be illuminated by the truth. Making this a reality, we walk a razors edge, in that in this venue, truth and falsehood must be granted equal lattitude... With teachings like my friend OGB ascribes to, Truth is being held hostage by the promise of federal funding or not,... leaving free reign only in limited hands...
... ... . Like I have pointed out before, Christianity as taught by those who hold the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God; alluded to in the Virginia state constitution, not only tolerates, but welcomes "with Christian Love and forebearance" those of all beliefs in its jurisdiction. Thus, a nation whos' liberty, and moral fiber is derivied from the Words of the Bible, held true, inerrant and unchanging, will remain a free, tolerant, estuary where truth will have free reign to illuminate any marauding falsehoods...



Is the Virginia State Constitution the foundation that the Federal government is built on?



A nation in the grip of the religion of Athiesm, paraded as Socialism or Communism, will tolerate only its stated creeds and ideology... Athiesm will not tolerate Christianity. This is evident without exception in every nation under Athiesms jurisdiction. History bears this out in the mass execution of those who have disagreed with the tenets of its particular brand of Athiesm... Those residing under the wing of Islam suffer an even worse fate... The execution of converts to Christianity... Because it has flung Christianity out the window... Europe is in the grip of an Ismamic foothold, evidenced by the riots in France...



This great nation cannot and should not be compared with Socialism or Communism, we are niether and never will be. We are a free nation and we will always be free!



One has to jump through some vexing philosphical hoops to come to the conclusion that this country was not founded and sustained on and by a Judeo/Christian bedrock... The Rock rejected by the builders...made capstone/cornerstone... The Rock upon which every proud man has or will someday stumble, yours truly included...


Obviously you and I disagree on the intent of the establishment clause. Making any assertion as to the foundation and what it was built on has been addressed in my earlier posts. You see, the intent of the clause was a "Wall of Seperation" as stated by Jefferson who you now villify. You may cite any state constitution you care to, but the words you so ardently seek are not in the governing document of the nation.



If this were the case, they would have used: A.D. but they chose to spell it out. "The Year of Our Lord" There are plenty of official documents then and now that do not use A.D. or The Year of our Lord...


C'mon CP, you can do better than that, you're pulling a David Barton on me. Anno Domini Iesu Chrisu is AD which is still used today. To say because the Framers dated in the manner of the time meant that the establishment clause means other than what I ascribe to is quite a stretch. You know it and I know it.

[dirtdobber]

no I did not this one would be #3 & the last when it comes to religion and what I believe in its just my view and my view alone.my wife is primitive baptist and what she chooses to believe in is her business don't push my beliefs on my 6 children or my family members they will answer to there sins when they get the call to the LORD. I do let my children have a say in what they want to believe in.kind of looks to me neither of the 2 of you can say the same thing :rolleyes: .

[CenterPointEX]

Is the Virginia State Constitution the foundation that the Federal government is built on?
No, it is not... but the State Constitutions are a derivative of the Federal Constitution...



This great nation cannot and should not be compared with Socialism or Communism, we are niether and never will be. We are a free nation and we will always be free! We are free for the reason stated in my earlier post... When we cease to be a Christian, we will cease to be free... The Judeo/Christian foundation is being slowly chipped away by folks who are of the same mind as yourself...


Jefferson who you now villify. You may cite any state constitution you care to, but the words you so ardently seek are not in the governing document of the nation. I do not villify Jefferson... I see him in a differant light than you...Having eyes, they do not see... having ears they do not hear... the Bible talks of folks like that... and in the last days they will be saying, where is your God?... They will be eating, drinking, and being merry... Just as in the days of Noah... They think us fools... Just like Noah...




C'mon CP, you can do better than that, you're pulling a David Barton on me. Anno Domini Iesu Chrisu is AD which is still used today. To say because the Framers dated in the manner of the time meant that the establishment clause means other than what I ascribe to is quite a stretch. You know it and I know it The Point I make in this has only to do with Christians, 99 percent of em, giving credit to their God...
I wonder... how long them folks laughed as the rains started to fall?

[Orgnizdlbr]

No, it is not... but the State Constitutions are a derivative of the Federal Constitution...

Cp, you cant find the words you look for in the Federal Constitution, dont point me to a document that the federal constitution takes precedents over.


We are free for the reason stated in my earlier post... When we cease to be a Christian, we will cease to be free... The Judeo/Christian foundation is being slowly chipped away by folks who are of the same mind as yourself...

Oh contraire, I submit to you CP, that people of like mind as myself, who cherish the freedoms enumerated in the constitution, are not the folks who care to chip away at any foundation this nation was built on. It is single the minded people, people of only one purpose who cannot accept the Secular state for what it is, who whittle away at freedom every day.


I do not villify Jefferson... I see him in a differant light than you...Having eyes, they do not see... having ears they do not hear... the Bible talks of folks like that... and in the last days they will be saying, where is your God?... They will be eating, drinking, and being merry... Just as in the days of Noah... They think us fools... Just like Noah...
Again, judge not brother, for thee thyself shall be judged....


The Point I make in this has only to do with Christians, 99 percent of em, giving credit to their God...
I wonder... how long them folks laughed as the rains started to fall?
All along you have asserted that the mere fact of a date "in the Year of our Lord" gave you an interpretation on the establishment clause, why the change?

[CenterPointEX]

[QUOTE] Cp, you cant find the words you look for in the Federal Constitution, dont point me to a document that the federal constitution takes precedents over. From where,what, or from whom does the Federal Constitution get it's authority?...



Oh contraire, I submit to you CP, that people of like mind as myself, who cherish the freedoms enumerated in the constitution, are not the folks who care to chip away at any foundation this nation was built on. It is single the minded people, people of only one purpose who cannot accept the Secular state for what it is, who whittle away at freedom every day. Time will tell OGB... mark my word, by the time you understand that the freedoms we enjoy as a nation were granted from the authority defered to as grantor in all 50 State Constitutions, it will probably be too late... We will be as Isreal when the Babylonians swooped down upon them... The American current is flowing away from our Christian herratige, folks like yourself who claim faith in Christ, yet seem to agree covertly, and sometimes overtly with the folks who seek to remove the Ten Commandments from Courthouse lawns etc., The mention of God from State constituions, pledges, and national slogan...
... ... I believe, in my lifetime;save a national revival, that sections of the Bible will become illegal hate speech. Already at this hour, the drums are being beat for just such legislation... Using your definition of the first ammendment, the courts have no option but to concur with the folks who want this speech banned...
All along you have asserted that the mere fact of a date "in the Year of our Lord" gave you an interpretation on the establishment clause, why the change? Not the merely this, but this in conjunction with the whole of who and what the Framers were and represented... The Federal Constitution has no authority except that granted to it by the States in convention... The Federal Constitution will and must bow to the authority of the 50 States who in their constitutions give thanks and glory to Almighty God from whom their freedoms and rights are attained... The Framers were not by any stretch of the imagination secularists... they did not by any stretch of the imagination seek to lay the foundations for an athiestic form of Goverment... at this point I contend that the words Secular and athiestic are interchangeable... Secularism precludes the existence of God... Same as athiesm... Same as communism... same as socialism... I still contend that all forms of governemnt not based on the Judeo/Christian model and morality, will not tolerate anything but their own ideaologys. They will while giving the pretext of being for the people, will become tolitarian dictatorships... Because absolute power corrupts absolutely... The reason The Uninted States governement does not think at the moment, that its power is absolute, is because all fifty States operate under the pretext that their power/authority is a gift from Almighty God, and that just as readily as it was granted us, if we fall out of His favor, He can take it back....

[Orgnizdlbr]

From where,what, or from whom does the Federal Constitution get it's authority?...


Time will tell OGB... mark my word, by the time you understand that the freedoms we enjoy as a nation were granted from the authority defered to as grantor in all 50 State Constitutions, it will probably be too late... We will be as Isreal when the Babylonians swooped down upon them... The American current is flowing away from our Christian herratige, folks like yourself who claim faith in Christ, yet seem to agree covertly, and sometimes overtly with the folks who seek to remove the Ten Commandments from Courthouse lawns etc., The mention of God from State constituions, pledges, and national slogan...
... ... I believe, in my lifetime;save a national revival, that sections of the Bible will become illegal hate speech. Already at this hour, the drums are being beat for just such legislation... Using your definition of the first ammendment, the courts have no option but to concur with the folks who want this speech banned... Not the merely this, but this in conjunction with the whole of who and what the Framers were and represented... The Federal Constitution has no authority except that granted to it by the States in convention... The Federal Constitution will and must bow to the authority of the 50 States who in their constitutions give thanks and glory to Almighty God from whom their freedoms and rights are attained... The Framers were not by any stretch of the imagination secularists... they did not by any stretch of the imagination seek to lay the foundations for an athiestic form of Goverment... at this point I contend that the words Secular and athiestic are interchangeable... Secularism precludes the existence of God... Same as athiesm... Same as communism... same as socialism... I still contend that all forms of governemnt not based on the Judeo/Christian model and morality, will not tolerate anything but their own ideaologys. They will while giving the pretext of being for the people, will become tolitarian dictatorships... Because absolute power corrupts absolutely... The reason The Uninted States governement does not think at the moment, that its power is absolute, is because all fifty States operate under the pretext that their power/authority is a gift from Almighty God, and that just as readily as it was granted us, if we fall out of His favor, He can take it back....

Well, I see that I apparently have raised your ire, oh yee of little faith. You have no faith in America, you have no faith in human kind, your assertions with regard to Free speech and First amendments rights are absurd, you frankly are an alarmist who sees a boogie man in every shadow, or you are being led by someone who has turned you sour on America, or "Free America" as I would put it. While someone like me would fight for your rights enumerated in the constitution, you would fight to take mine away. CP, says you must be a Christian or else. Now CP will say "Naw that aint what I would legislate" but in reality it is. CP would legislate what bible you MUST read. CP would legislate what church you MUST attend. And, contrary to his public statements, he would legislate what you MUST give to his Church.

I have made my last statement on the subject CP, you are unbending as I am, I will no longer waste my time in attempting to trade argument. You, as most of your ilk inevitably resort to, cast aspersions at anyone who disagrees with your position. You, in this post quoted above, have questioned my faith in Christ when you say that I "claim faith in Christ" that amounts to an attack on my credibility. Dont ever question my faith again! As I said earlier, I have made my last post on this subject. Answer however you care to, cast all the aspersions you want, but it has become apparent to me that you are able to resort to crawling on your belly like a snake when it becomes apparent you fail in you arguments. have a nice life CP, I wish you no Ill will, but I hope someday you'll mature a little and do some growing up.

[CenterPointEX]

Did I say I had little faith in America? I did say short of a Revival, which is not out of the question, we are headed down a slippery slope...

... ... . OGB, I myself claim to be a Christian... , It was not my intent to say that you were not, only God knows my heart and yours... I did say some folks claim to be Christians and then turn around and support non Christian positions... If the shoe fits wear it...

There are folks who claim to be Christians and yet do not think it is their duty to tell folks about Jesus Christ... Yes, there are folks who claim to be Christians who believe folks should keep their faith and beliefs to themselves so as not to offend their neighbors and coworkers... There are folks who claim to be Christians, but yet believe there is nothing wrong with Gay marriage in the church.. There are folks who claim to be Christians, and yet believe there is not a thing wrong with viewing and using Porn...There are folks who claim to be Christians and yet believe that Their works will help them to get to heaven... There are folks who claim to be Christains and belive the Statement, " As man is, God once was, and as God is, man can someday be." There are folks who claim to be Christians , that believe that Mary can hear their prayers and help them... There are folks who claim to be Christians that believe Christianity should be kept in the closet where the gays used to keep their sexuality. There are folks who claim to be Christians that do not believe the Bible is Gods word... There are folks who claim to be Christians, who belive claiming to be a Christian gets them passage to heaven... There are folks who claim to be Christians and yet believe there is not a thing wrong with killing children in the womb...

....There are folks who claim to be Christians who think it an insult when someone questions their faith...

... ... If you are a Christian, you know the score and thus expect folks to question your faith, you expect folks to attack your faith... You know that folks will hate you because they first hated your Lord Jesus Christ... If you are a Christian you welcome this questioning of your faith, and you are always ready with an answer... That we are to expect attacks on our faith, and that we are to be ready to give anwer to this questioning is apparent in Scripture... If you are a Christian, you know it is your duty to love, and pray for your enemies... If you have read the Bible you know this is true.

Just what is it about the gospel that folks hate so much... ?

....What they hate about the gospel, is that it interfers with their freelance lust and causes guilt... for which they have no remedy... short of a Savior who atones for their sin... loss of self control if you will, that you aquies to a power other than your own... giving back what was first given you... and in this you will be crowned a saint...
__________________

[CenterPointEX]

Adultery, coveting a neighbor's wife or manservant or maidservant support family values but are those the type of instruction for grade school kids? If discussions turn to sexual behavior, some one will surely point out the greater moral menace to society than adultery is practicing safe sex.It is funny you should mention that... Grade school kids now get instruction on gender sensitivity, gay, lesbian, transgender and otherwise... Not happening you say? "Heather has two mommy's." Do a google search on that one... You can bet your bootstraps, this agenda is set forth, by folks who want every vestige of Christianity removed from the public forum...

[CenterPointEX]

CP would legislate what bible you MUST read.
.

No, not really, But I would advocate leglislating a reccomendation... Oh wait, that has already been done... Long before I even thought of it... By the Framers of the Constitution... You know... the "Wall Builders" ?



September 10, 1782, a Congressional Resolution was adopted granting Aitken permission and financial support for the printing of the first edition of the first American Bible.



“The United States in Congress assembled highly approve the pious and laudable undertaking of Mr. Aitken, as subservient to the interest of religion, as well as an instance of the progress of arts in this country, and being satisfied from the above report of his care and accuracy in the execution of the work, they recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States, and hereby authorize him to publish this recommendation in the manner he shall think proper.”


–Congressional Resolution, September 10, 1782

The contintental congress defered to the Constitutional congress in 1789

[CenterPointEX]

All along you have asserted that the mere fact of a date "in the Year of our Lord" gave you an interpretation on the establishment clause, why the change?
You see, the intent of the clause was a "Wall of Seperation" as stated by Jefferson who you now villify. You may cite any state constitution you care to, but the words you so ardently seek are not in the governing document of the nation..
It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the administrations of Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) and of James Madison (1809-1817) the state became the church. Within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the House of Representatives.Church services in the House, a practice that continued until after the Civil War--were acceptable to Jefferson because they were nondiscriminatory and voluntary. Preachers of every Protestant denomination appeared. (Catholic priests began officiating in 1826.) Throughout his administration Jefferson permitted church services in executive branch buildings. The Gospel was also preached in the Supreme Court chambers. Jefferson's actions may seem surprising because his attitude toward the relation between religion and government is usually thought to have been embodied in his recommendation that there exist "a wall of separation between church and state."... religion. In attending church services on public property, Jefferson and Madison consciously and deliberately were offering symbolic support to religion as a base for a republican government.

[CenterPointEX]

You know, the more I think about it,... the more I think just maybe the juxapostion of that which resides on both sides of this translucent wall was intentional... The dilema was, that if they constructed the Constitution to admit that this was a nation built, maintained, and run on faith in Jesus Christ... Then that would not be the case, since faith is believing in the noncaporal... Saying it straight out, Point Blank, would give this idea skin, and thus it would no longer be noncaporal faith... but rather knowledge...

And if they said straight out, "We will not be a nation built, maintained, and run by faith in Jesus Christ..." Well, that scenario would be an unthinkable moray...

I'm thinking, that the first ammendment has Gods handwriting all over it... It is brilliant... because... It does not say either of these things... and anyone who infers that it does, or does not say either one of these things, does so by faith...

Same as the question, "Does God exist?" The only way one can answer this question; pro or con, is by faith... Evidence may be overwhelming for one or the other... but at the end of the day ones view of the evidence is just that... a view...
... .. . No matter how many folks view a stop sign as red... If another person feels like and views it as purple... Then for that person it is purple... and if at the end of the day that person ceases to exist... and there is no God, heaven, or after life... then it really does not matter what color the stop sign was... for all eternal and subsequently temporal purposes... it was purple...
kind of looks like centerpoint is talking to himself self dillusional looks like to me... Yup.. Joe Dirt... I'm talkin to myself, but this thread is gettin about fifty hits a day... Somebody is listening... I read the Bible... a lot... reading it every day is kinda like putting a microscope to a cell... ya just keep seeing and discovering stuff... Take a human cell for instance... they have discovered that in just one cell, there are three trillion machines making the stuff the cell needs to function... The depth of what we can learn in the Bible is infinate... as infinate as time, space, and matter...

[dirtdobber]

kind of looks like centerpoint is talking to himself self dillusional looks like to me.someone somewhere really got to him at some church or revival some where sorry bout that dude!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CenterPointEX]

Ya, I know Swamp... I am resigned to praying for ya... talking to ya is pret near like taliking to me... By faith, you believe in agnosticism... you have a strong belief in it,and so you refuse to hear of the God of the Bible... You close your eyes, ears, and heart to the truth... to the Point that you will not even ask God to reveal to you the truth... I garontee Swamp, if you were to get on your knees and do that, he would let you know... I know, I know, I know... so all I can do is pray... feel the heat Swamp?

[Viperexaf]

to each his own i say. sometimes i'll do like the 3 monkeys with the see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil.

[CenterPointEX]

to each his own I say. Sometimes i'll do like the 3 monkeys with... the see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil. Yep... I'm thinkin you are not alone in this... American Christiandom is doing the same thing... Thats the trouble... While 80% of Americans call themselves Christians, a huge portion of those folks got their head buried in the sand, hiding from the Evil that besieges this country... Like the days in Rome when the games were going on... the gladiators, battles with the Lions and such...
......Christendom just stood by, and looked the other way as they passed by the staduim... Til one day this little Priest walked into the ring and said, "Enough!, this is wrong, this is immoral, this is unrighteous, inhuman and just plain right mean!"... Well that little dude got mushed like road kill on a hot summer day on Route 666... The public upon seeing this little, innocent, Godfearing man get mushed, got up and walked out... never to return...

If you claim Christ as your Lord and Savior... get involved... do your homework... see who is out there running for office that exaults the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior, and vote for them... This last election cycle Christendom stood up and said "no to Gay Marriage, and Yes to family values and perscribed in the Bible"... a remmenant came out an voted, and we made progress by the skin of our teeth... But it was too close... This time get out there and campain to, for, and with your brothers and sisters in Christ... That we might reclaim this country... to make it a safe, free, tolerant, enviorment where all religions feel at home...
... The alternative is thru apathy, conseeding it to the Secular Darwinists, and Evolutionists... Whos theaology sets us free only to persue the evolution of our race by eliminating those inferior useless eaters... Useless eaters will be defined by those with the biggest sticks... The fittest if you will...
God Save us...
...raise up men and women of faith to reclaim America...
.........................................God bless America...

[dirtdobber]

I have to agree with you on your post. yes we should stand up but would like to add a little remark to it. if that little priest was killed what would happen if you did not have a large flock to stand with you? I personally believe that if our country went back to an EYE for an EYE TOOTH for a TOOTH alot of what is going on with us as a nation would stop. CHARLIE DANIELS has a song about some panty waist judge what are your thoughts?

[dirtdobber]

swamp you to? :D

[dirtdobber]

we should patition C.D. to run for president. or just one of us true backwood rednecks. not someone from the movie deliverance where your daddy is your mamas uncle. :D

[CenterPointEX]

.

You wore me out CP.....you view all things from your perspective and no other..... Don't we all OGB?... this board is sustained for this reason. Some folks view the world thru flash glasses with a yellow tint, some thru rose colored glasses. I view it with my Bible goggles on. I find its the only way not get worn out on it, an give up in despair.

. The definition of Righteousness is knowing and doing what is right according to Gods Word.

. The definition of self righteous is knowing and doing what is right according to self. Swamp....

Anybody who does not use an absolute, infailable, unchanging, source to define right and wrong is by default "Self Righteous"
There is only one such source. Without exception the texts of the worlds religions are now and have been in flux... save one.
Any casual student of the Bible can attest to the righteoussness of my thoughts on this subject.
. For me, right and wrong are not subject to my feelings... My feelings; more often than not, would lead me in a differant direction than Gods word. Gods word is what I use to determine right and wrong. What makes this country so strong is that its principles of right and wrong were garnered directly from the Bible. Half of the men who framed the constitution, held seminary degrees, they were pastors. www.powerlineman.com/lforum/showthread.php?t=1320&page=1&pp=10 (showthread.php?t=1320&page=1&pp=10)

[Orgnizdlbr]

Originally Posted by Orgnizdlbr
.

You wore me out CP.....you view all things from your perspective and no other....




Don't we all OGB?... this board is sustained for this reason.


Actually, some of us here view issues with an open mind. Certainly when you and I discussed the "Establishment" clause, I gave my view and opinion based on many years of interest in and respect for the Constitution. Did you really think you'd change my mind, especially when you take the same tack as neo-cons like David Barton?

People on this board have educated me and some have even made me view issues in a different manner, even you CP....

But, to Swamp's point, there aint no give and take when it comes to discussion with you. I respect your conviction, I respect the fact that you have the courage to put your faith out there. You take the Bible as innerant, many people have questions about the Bible, I'm sure, if you think about, you can understand that.....

[CenterPointEX]

"As Iron sharpens Iron... So one man sharpens another"... When we have this kind of dialog, we have to find a way to articulate what we believe... So we struggle for the words... the source of our Truth emerges and sometimes we even discover what it is we actually do believe... Like Swamp, who thought he believed the Ten Commandments... and then discovered through dialog that he did not believe all ten of them...
Well, guess you're right. I don't believe in all the commandments. The Sabbath is just another day. ............... The Truth is out there for those who seek it... Most folks don't want to be bothered by it... It crimps their style... infringes on their "Self Righteousness" if you will.

.......... There are two camps these days...

...........One holds that the Truth is unchanging, unmoving, omnipresent, Omniscient and Eternal...

.......... The other compells us to be tolerant of the notion that the Truth is Relative... in Flux...Changing... Unique to every individual, unknowable... and Temporal... With great emphasis on the temporal...

I Contend that Camp "B" is the epitomy of Chaos and Hopelessness, which leads to an existence that does not quite qualify as life...

But who am I to judge?

[the hammer]

Answer this for me. Why did people live to be hundreds of years old in the bible? Why were the people white, when science says the first people were not (they were apes??)? Do you really believe the Red Sea was parted? These are questions that I've had since I was a young child in Sunday school and I've never heard an answer that I could truely believe. I had knee surgery when I was in highschool and decided with my extra time laid up in bed that I would start to read the bible. I found so many things that just made no sense that I quit reading it. I truely wish I had the belief (faith) that many christians do, but it just doesn't stick with me because there are so many things in the bible that science would say could never happen.

[CenterPointEX]

Science now says that evolution; based on the complexity of the cell that we now understand, could not have happened.

Bull Dog being as you are new here, I guess you aint heard my "The Waters above were seperated from the waters below... It had not yet rained and a mist watered the earth " theory.

[CenterPointEX]

It is not completely my theory, I lifted parts of it from other sources... But, In Genisis it says, "the waters above were seperated from the waters below... In another place it says, "It had not yet rained and a mist watered the earth."
So, here goes... In the outer atmosphere was a layer of water... Being out there it was a frozen and clear... This created a Hothouse over the whole of the earth... The whole earth was a tropical paradise... Just like inside a Hot House things are watered by the moisture in the air so it was...
.........Carbon dating is based on how fast radiation breaks down carbon... They observe how fast this happens, then extrapalate the equasion backwards to date stuff... This theory assumes that the radiation level on the surface has always been constant... In the ice shield theory radiation is filtered and thus carbon based items break down slower... Humans are carbon based... So they lived longer... The same set of conditions that let men live longer, also let all things live longer... Including reptiles... Reptiles as long as they live, never quit getting bigger... How big would a five hundred year old Iguana be? Dinosaur means "Big Lizard"... In the March isue of Discover Magazine there is an article about a scientist who found red bloodcells in a Dinosaur bone... The problem with that is this kind of tissue could not survive over ten thousand years... Evolution contends that Dinosuars walked the earth milions of years ago... The theory of evolution requires millions of years... so the whole of the earths surface was a tropical land mass... With huge underground springs that also watered the surface... God gets mad... throw a rock... the ice shield comes crashing down... for fourty days and fourty nights... the weight of the water collapses the underground caverens... The Water on the higher surfaces pours down into the collapsed holes... Cutting things like the Grand Canyon... Choke Points where the Water rushed would make a huge pile of debris burried in the mud... they have found such areas... They found a Mastadon at the North Pole with buttercups in his mouth... How did he get there? The whole of the earths surface is Tropical Jungle... What is a Mastadon?... A really old elephant...

Bull Dog you can not accept the miricles in the Bible?

Can you accept that there was a time when absolutely nothing existed... Then out of nothing something came?

[FredFlash]

"In God We Trust" and The United States Was Founded As A Heathen Nation That Disowned God

The enemies of the right of conscience who engineered the diabolic scheme to have the motto “IN GOD WE TRUST” impressed on the nation’s coins despised the noble Christian gentlemen who established our system of government, spewed the notion that the U. S. was founded as a heathen nation that disowned God and hated great men like the wise and heroic James Madison. These minions of an evil spirit were successful because of the Counterfeit Christian sentiments that prevailed during and just after the Civil War.

Reverend M.R. Watkinson was part of a larger campaign waged by Counterfeit Christian’s who were disenchanted with the exemption of religion from the cognizance of government so wisely established by the founders. Watkins was determined to overthrow the Separation of Church and State when he wrote a letter to Secretary of the Treasury Samuel P. Chase in 1861. Secretary Chase was known to favor civil authority over religion and was receptive to the demands from Watkins and other Counterfeit Christians throughout the country, who wrote him urging that the United States recognize the Deity on United States coins. Rev. Watkinson’s letter dated November 13, 1861 reads a follows:


Dear Sir:

You are about to submit your annual report to the Congress respecting the affairs of the national finances. One fact touching our currency has hitherto been seriously overlooked.

I mean the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins.
You are probably a Christian. What if our Republic were not shattered beyond reconstruction? Would not the antiquaries of succeeding centuries rightly reason from our past that we were a heathen nation? (Editorial Comment: He just accused the noble heroes who established our system of government of being heathens)

What I propose is that instead of the goddess of liberty (Editorial Comment: He just wants to erase some of the nation's heritage) we shall have next inside the 13 stars a ring inscribed with the words PERPETUAL UNION; within the ring the allseeing eye, crowned with a halo; beneath this eye the American flag, bearing in its field stars equal to the number of the States united; in the folds of the bars the words GOD, LIBERTY, LAW.

This would make a beautiful coin, to which no possible citizen could object. (Editorial Comment: It was with a kiss that Judas betrayed his divine Master; and we should all be admonished -- no matter what our faith may be -- that the rights of conscience cannot be so successfully assailed as under the pretext of holiness)

This would relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism. (Editorial Comment: He again charges the founding fathers of heathenism) This would place us openly under the Divine protection we have personally claimed. From my hearth I have felt our national shame in disowning God (Editorial Comment: Separating civil authority from the duty that we are to render only to God, as we were directed to do by the Savior in the holy scriptures, is distorted by this pervert into a disowning of God) as not the least of our present national disasters.

To you first I address a subject that must be agitated.

The United States, in my humble view, departed from the vision of the founders and lost any right to claim it was a Genuine Christian Nation when the American people failed to take up the terrible swift sword of justice and extirpate the fools who passed the 1860's bill that authorized the government to trespass upon the authority of Jehovah and intrude upon the sacred place where a man communes with his God to declare the people’s trust in God on the nation’s coins. The people might just as well have sworn allegiance to Beelzebub and started attending services at the Temple of the Dragon.

[CenterPointEX]

"In God We Trust"

The United States, in my humble view, departed from the vision of the founders and lost any right to claim it was a Genuine Christian Nation when the American people...authorized the government to... declare the people’s trust in God on the nation’s coins. . So Flash, is it your conclusion that we should not have put "In God We Trust" on our currency? Explain your thoughts as to how this is wrong.

Do you use a Biblical argument to come up with this ideaology or is it of your own?

[CenterPointEX]

Welcome aboard the "Love Train" Fred. :-)Good to have a Jehovah Witness aboard this train. You guys got an interesting "theory" too. I know CP..."I'm the devil reincarnate".... :-) :-). Just curious Swamp, what makes you think Fred Flash is a Jehovahs Wittness?

Do you know the difference between Christians and Jehovahs Wittnesses Swamp?

[CenterPointEX]

The Senate Passes Amnesty for Illegals Today Batts this is good info, but can you move it to the illegal aliens thread... it would better serve its purpose to it..

[CenterPointEX]

Swamp, I don't see anything in that post that makes him a Jehovahs Wittness could you Point is out to me?

And also in you opinion could you tell me the difference between Christians and Jehovahs Wittnesses?

[Patriot]

{quote[Originally Posted by SBatts
More people has died at the hands of your G0DDAMNED JESUS FREAKS THAN BY HITLER. You keep your religion out and seperate from our government. I think there is as many Democrats against same sex marriage as the moral right. Thats your whole problem fearing a spook and not using your brain to get you and this country out of the shit the religious fruitcakes has put it in.{quote}

BS! Corporate America as played that role throughout history. More people have died defending some rich bastards assets. Two reasons to die, your beliefs and freedom! Corporate America has fought both, all in the name of the almighty dollar. Every war that has been fought by our veterans was driven by corporate America. Read your history books! What better reason to die than defending your religious beliefs? Or your right to be a free man.

[CenterPointEX]

Well, Swamp, since you asked... Jehovas Wittnesses kinda believe what you do... They believe in the Jesus incident, but they don't believe in the Jesus incident... In a JWs eyes, Jesus was just a prophet... not God... all cults; including JWs diverge from Christianity on the same question Jesus asked the Apostles..."Who do you say that, I AM" all cults answer this question different than Christianity...

Batts, you say that Christians killed more folks in the name of Jesus Christ than Hitler or any one else? When exactly did this happen?


Nobody can even come close to the hundreds of millions killed by the Godless Communist regiemes in the last hundred years... You speak half cocked Batts... you really don't have a clue... at least SWamp qualifies his statements with disclaimers...


Sadam was making threats to do to the United States the same as he was doing to his own people... We have simply moved their Jihad to their soil that we might not fight it on our own... Sadam was into straight up Genocide Batts... Jihad is ugly bussiness Batts, Men, Women, and children marching to Satanic Verses... the intensity of this will ebb and flow like a river whose mouth is Armagedon... Alas Babylon... Check Revelation for the outcome of that final battle...

[Patriot]

IT'S BEEN HAPPENING SINCE RELIGION BEGAN. IT GOES ON EVERY FUCKING DAY YOU MORON. MUSLIMS KILL JEWS, CHRISTIANS KILL MUSLIMS.

YOUR FUCKING CHRISTAIN LEADER bush SHOULD BE HELD RESPONCIBLE FOR THE CIVILIAN MASSACARE BY MARINES IN IRAQ. IS THAT NOT WHAT ALL YOU BITCHED ABOUT SADDAM????? EQUAL JUSTICE NOW FOR bush AS COMMANDER IN CHIEF..

Your a real whiz bang! What about your favorite anti-Christ leader, himmler klinton? He could have ended the entire fiasco in the middle east while he was in office, but never lifted a finger to do so. He had his chance and just passed it on to Bush. Oh klinton was to busy poking a bush!

[CenterPointEX]

One Nation Under God... it rears its head again so I thought this thread should resurface...

[TRAMPLINEMAN]

One Nation Under God...

It always has been, it always will be.

[Orgnizdlbr]

One Nation Under God... it rears its head again so I thought this thread should resurface...

I guess I am out of toouch, what and when did "Under God" rear it's head again?

Nice to see you back CP, hope all is well....thought I would ad that before we initiated what will presumably be opposing discourse!http://ww3.powerlineman.com/lforum/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Dave@PSE&G]

I guess I am out of toouch, what and when did "Under God" rear it's head again?

Nice to see you back CP, hope all is well....thought I would ad that before we initiated what will presumably be opposing discourse!http://ww3.powerlineman.com/lforum/images/icons/icon12.gif

OL,
It came up in the "Iraq" thread. Little Beaver asked if the pledge of allegience was still recited in schools, and if the words "under God" were still included. Page 9 of that thread, me thinks.

[CenterPointEX]

[
I'm not "offended" by the reference to god in the pledge or on our money. Some people are. Somebody's always gonna be offended. :-)...I also don't believe "god and politics" mix. Especially when politicians start "professing" "God is on our side". That shit's wrong. God don't choose sides. Hell, he ain't even payin attention...I got no problem with "In God we Trust" on our money, or the mention of God in the Pledge...
Let me play the "devils advocate". "Why should the mention of "God" be allowed on our money, in the pledge, or proclaimed in stone on some of our buildings? "
This nation is Not a "nation under god". It's a nation under "political correctness"... I just have to laugh when I hear people say that "one nation under god", "offends" them. I mean....really.
LOL!


The Unanimous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America
When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are (by God) created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator (God) with certain unalienable rights,... whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government,...Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes;... But when a ... (The gov no longer respects its people), it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, ... (The King of England) has made judges dependent on his will alone, for the tenure of their offices,...We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled, appealing to (God) the Supreme Judge of the world for the (as an authority to the moral correctness)/rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by the authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, that these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states;... And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of (God) Divine Providence (If you look up the meaning of "Divine Providence" in Webster, you find thit to mean,"Under the protection of and being in the will of God"), we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.



Our founding Fathers were 99% Christians... Our founding Fathers understood us to be a nation under God from inception. A Nation under Divine Providence. Our founding Fathers did not deem it necessary to define who the Creator God was and is, because it was understood; by the framers of the Constitution and the audience to which they addressed the Declaration of INdependance, who that God was. It was their as it is my firm belief, that when we cease to be "One Nation Under God", We will cease to be the United States of America.

It was the understanding of one of those framers Thomas Jefferson. The same Jefferson who in a letter to the Danbury Baptists assured them, that because of the protections in the 1st ammendment, the Goverment would make no laws interfering with the free exercise of worshiping this God. He assured them that the protections in the ammendment set up a wall over which the Goverment could and would not come over to interfer with their worship of this God. Should this unlikely event come to pass, we have the edict from the Declaration to throw off this goverment and start over. In the same vein as the passengers of the MayFlower who signed the May Flower Compact... the Womb of the U.S. constitution.

Every State Constitution there after mentioned God as their Authority. Many of these Constitutions defined exactly who that God was and is. Eboldened by the Contstitution of the United States, they harbored no restraint in doing so.

[CenterPointEX]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBatts http://ww3.powerlineman.com/lforum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://ww3.powerlineman.com/lforum/showthread.php?p=24842#post24842)
You know how I feel about holy rollers and organized religion. But when it comes to comes to 230 years of "IN GOD WE TRUST", I still add it to the Pledge of Allegiance, and see a place for it in America. Just as long as the holy rollers leave well enough alone.


Originally Posted by OGB
"Steve and CP, I have stated on many occasions in threads here what my opinion of the "Establishment Clause" and the "Wall of Seperation" are. That being said, I have no problem with "In God we trust" on my money and every time I say the pledge I use the words "under God". That does not alter my previous stated opinion. BTW, "under God" wasnt in the pledge until 1954....."
__________________

[ken lindsey]

I heard a quote years ago,maybe by Mark Twain, anyway ,it went something like.."The smart mans bet is that god exists,if your wrong ,what have you lost?"

[capitolgangster]

just so you know... the words "under god" were added in the middle of the twentieth century to the pledge... so it has not "always been". Not to mention no Christian should be pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth or anything it stands for.

[CenterPointEX]

Are you a Christian Gangster?

["little beaver"]

just so you know... the words "under god" were added in the middle of the twentieth century to the pledge... so it has not "always been". Not to mention no Christian should be pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth or anything it stands for.

Ganster's either confused or didn't 'have his thinking cap on' (as the nuns use to say) when he said the above.

[capitolgangster]

confused about what???

the first or second part?

[capitolgangster]

So, if you're not a christian....It's "OK" to pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth, and everything that piece of cloth stands for?

Guess I'm definately not a christian. And with words like that...don't want to be.


shouldn't a christian have allegiance sworn only to Jesus Christ???

correct me if i am wrong there....

[Orgnizdlbr]

So, if you're not a christian....It's "OK" to pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth, and everything that piece of cloth stands for?

Guess I'm definately not a christian. And with words like that...don't want to be.


shouldn't a christian have allegiance sworn only to Jesus Christ???

correct me if i am wrong there....

"Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."

I'll add that, I have no opinion on what the passage means. CP, what does the above quoted passage mean, if anything, regarding pledging allegiance to a flag?

[CenterPointEX]

The wisdom packed into the Words Jesus spoke is an infinate well of living water...

They were trying paint Jesus into a corner by asking him to say that in the name of God are we required to support a goverment even if it is evil. This was in reguards to a tax required of him by the Roman goverment. He asked for a coin and asked whose picture was on it. It was Ceasers Pic. Jesus was making the point that Ceaser minted the coin and passed it out to his subjects... If Ceaser required it back, he was only asking for what was his to begin with... Then Jesus drove home the implied statement that God the Father gives us our very life... If we give it to him... then we only give him what was his to begin with...

No goverment comes to power without God letting that Govement do so. God has used evil rulers to further His cause and or disapline his children... The Nation Isreal is the poster child of Gods wrath, patience, unabounding love, mercy and forgivness...

Allegiance to a flag... Is it ok for a Christian.... ?

We must first define allegiance before we go forward.

Allegiance is having a sense of duty with like minded others to uphold and be true and loyal to an ideaology. An inanimate object like a flag does not have an ideaology... This is merly a figure of speech... But the pledge goes on to define this ideaology. The pledge by implication refers us back to the documets from which it receives its marching orders. Again we all know that flags don't take orders... figure of speech...
... If you roll back up on this thread, you will find the Declaration of Independence. In it we as one people pledge to be loyal to defend for all our citizens the inalienable rights given to us by our Creator God who created our nature and all nature around us. God requires of all His children to be respectful of those who God has allowed to rule over us for a time. In the case of Jacob/Isreal, he was respectful of his Masters wife... but when she required of him that which would be a sin in the eyes of God, he did not respect her wishes. Jacob was not dependent on Pharohs wife for the life that was in him... He would not render that to her because it did not belong to her. But if she had simply required of him his clothing... given to him by her... he would have graciously done so...

Jacob gave allegiance to his Master Pharoh... But all understood that he did so out of reverance of Him who was over Pharoh... The same with the Pledge of Allegiance... We give allegiance to that for which the Flag stands... One Nation... One Ideaology... subject to itself... but only under the Divine Providence of God from which it's power is ultimately derived and by that token reigns only as long as this remains so...

[CenterPointEX]

Render unto C easer Swamp... you will be just fine.

[CenterPointEX]

Your best day on Earth Swamp, won't hold a candle to your worst day in Heaven... What do we do here on Earth? What of our earthly activities gives us the greatest pleasure? I'll tell you what it is... building relationships... We will spend eternity Swamp building relationships... Just think about how cool it would have been to be around from the Wild West days until now stuck in a thirty year old healthy body... It would be totally awesome...
In your religion Swamp, my body dies but my Karma lives? A brainless non cognoscente spirit with no memory of the past? What would be the Point of that Swamp? What kind of god do you serve Swamp that would create you... watch you suffer thru this life then wipe out who you are? Like you didn't matter at all...

P.S. I was being facetious Swamp... The verse "Render unto Ceaser what is Ceasers" continues on... "and render unto God what is Gods" I was implying Swamp that if you follow the verse you will be just fine.

[CenterPointEX]

My question was
"In your religion Swamp, my body dies but my Karma lives?"

No,
actually, I "sorta" tilt toward reincarnation a bit. "Good" Karmas, live on again. I also believe "Bad" Karmas, go to what you refer to as hell. Right off the top of my head? Charlie Manson might be one of those.
"Building Relationships", huh? Interesting. Neat concept, that you can even think your human brain will function like it does now....in heaven. Now Swamp, your answer seems to say, "No... our bodies die... we get new bodies... and our Karmas live on... bad karmas go to Hell."? You have stated before that you don't believe in Hell... and especially you don't believe in a god who would create folks, then send them to Hell...
Now it seems Swamp, that you are saying you serve a god who would create a man... If the man does bad; like Manson, your god would give him a new body, take away all cognescence of the life in which he did bad, then make him with that new body suffer a Hell for which he has no recall of deserving? and if a man does good, he gets a new body and receives Heaven with out any reall of deserving Heaven.? That is not a god I would want to serve Swamp. My God takes those to Heaven who want to be there... and he also sends to Hell those who don't want to be with Him... Hell is just existence apart from the Love and care of my God... Swamp, He does not force anyone to be with Him... He gives them all a choice to accept Him or not.

[CenterPointEX]

First off, I don't serve a god...
Your brain is just so limited...

The only difference between your "heaven" and Islam "heaven", is they get virgins when they die and go to heaven. :D

You just have no "questioning" concept of anything do ya? .:cool: I dunno Swamp... You do serve a god me thinks... Your God is your belly. You serve yourself. Does the Islam God keep creating new virgins as the boys use them up Swamp? Tell me about this Islam Heaven you know so much about.

Better yet, tell me why you refuse to serve God. Is is because of a thing called PRIDE. You know Swamp, your father was cast out of Heaven for this very same reason...


CPX is Back... with a vengeance....

[Orgnizdlbr]

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom


I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")


I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789


They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.
-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800


Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802


History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.


The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814


Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814


In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

["little beaver"]

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

This is totally inaccurate. Jefferson was a godless and immoral man. DNA proved that!!

Sir William Blackstone the great English lawgiver, "flatly declared that "Christianity is part of the laws of England" but stated that the law of England "gives liberty, rightly understood, that is, protection to a jew, turk, or a heathen, as well as to those who profess the true religion of Christ."

The US legal system is ( like all British based countries) founded on a combination of Christian Principles and Common law. The Magna Carta being the foremost example.

[Orgnizdlbr]

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

This is totally inaccurate. Jefferson was a godless and immoral man. DNA proved that!!



Quick question:

how do you arrive at the assertion that TJ was a Godless and immoral man?

[Orgnizdlbr]

In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

In your opinion Beav, is this a statement of a Godless man??

["little beaver"]

TJ was an outright heretic. Refering to Jesus( the incarnate man, the son of God as "an extraordinary man" are the words of a heretic.

Here is another statement of a complete heresy that is consumed with himself and deceived by his own prideful nature:

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" (Works, Vol. iv, p. 365).

Young Tom should have had a few one on ones with Mother Superior at the Irish Catholic school that I went to. She would have enlightened his thought process!!

[Orgnizdlbr]

TJ was an outright heretic. Refering to Jesus( the incarnate man, the son of God as "an extraordinary man" are the words of a heretic.

Here is another statement of a complete heresy that is consumed with himself and deceived by his own prideful nature:

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" (Works, Vol. iv, p. 365).

Young Tom should have had a few one on ones with Mother Superior at the Irish Catholic school that I went to. She would have enlightened his thought process!!

I think if you delve deeper into TJ, you'll find he and Madison were neither Godless nor immoral, but were deeply spiritual.....both were also Diests.

I went to Polish Catholic school, Mother Superior also attempted to enlighten me.......

["little beaver"]

I think if you delve deeper into TJ, you'll find he and Madison were neither Godless nor immoral, but were deeply spiritual.....both were also Diests.

I went to Polish Catholic school, Mother Superior also attempted to enlighten me.......

At the time there were some parts of the Catholic School system that I didn't care for. However, the older I got the more I appreciated the discipline and the values that were imputed to the students.

I often said when my kids were going to HS that I would like to bring back Mother Superior for a few days and put her in charge. By noon hour of the first day she and football coach O'Connor would have the place all well 'sorted out'. The so called tough guys and trouble makers would all be as calm as lambs and in their place. That I asssure you !!

BTW: Diests maybe spiritual, but they are not Christians as they deny the Triune God and the Diety of Christ. As far as morality goes, 'Tom boy' was fathering offspring from his slave girl as had been proven by DNA in recent years.

[Orgnizdlbr]

BTW: Diests maybe spiritual, but they are not Christians as they deny the Triune God and the Diety of Christ. As far as morality goes, 'Tom boy' was fathering offspring from his slave girl as had been proven by DNA in recent years.


I see, so is it that he fathered children with an african woman, ......it is said that he ultimately entered into wedlock secretly, would that make you happy?

So Diests are nor moral?

[CenterPointEX]

On what do you base Jefferson was a Diest?

[Orgnizdlbr]

Let's start here CP......




Jefferson says he was a "Materialist" (letter to Short, Apr. 13, 1820) and a "Unitarian" (letter to Waterhouse, Jan. 8, 1825). Jefferson rejected the Christian doctrine of the "Trinity" (letter to Derieux, Jul. 25, 1788), as well as the doctrine of an eternal Hell (letter to Van der Kemp, May 1, 1817). Further, Jefferson specifically named Joseph Priestly (English Unitarian who moved to America) and Conyers Middleton (English Deist) and said: "I rest on them ... as the basis of my own faith" (letter to Adams, Aug. 22, 1813). Therefore, without using the actual words, Jefferson issued an authentic statement claiming Deism as his faith. The 1971 (ninth edition) Encyclopedia Britannica, 7:183, states the following: "By the end of the 18th century deism had become a dominant religious attitude among upper-class Americans, and the first three presidents of the United States held this conviction, as is amply evidenced in their correspondence." Therefore, it is appropriate to quote the two following paragraphs from the correspondence of President Thomas Jefferson wherein he wrote specifically about deism, as taught by Jesus.

[CenterPointEX]

As for "Faith" bein a part of this election....it really don't matter to me either way.What I see in this election so far is, all the different "faiths" trashin eachothers beliefs more than they're talkin about what they will do for America. Swamp, you have seen and rest in the comfort of what christianity can do for a nation... You have also seen and have suffered the discomfort of what Islam can do for a nation... If God exists Swamp... then it is very important that a nation and or it's leaders serve him...

[PA BEN]

Swamp, you have seen and rest in the comfort of what christianity can do for a nation... You have also seen and have suffered the discomfort of what Islam can do for a nation... If God exists Swamp... then it is very important that a nation and or it's leaders serve him...
The great USA is free thanks to our God fearing founding fathers. Look at all the non-christen countries. Do the math.:eek:

[Meat]

Malachi2.2,3. "If ye will not give glory unto my name I will spread dung upon your faces".

[CenterPointEX]

...Actually CP, I think AMERICA...was FOUNDED on a lot of "Principals"...other than Just "Christianity"....But..you and differ on that.... Ok, Swamp... enlighten us with your beliefs...
.........What principles other than Christianity do you believe this country was founded upon? What was the source; "in your belief system", from which the Constitution and Laws of this country were derived. I can show you Swamp, in a side by side comparison with the commandments that this country was indeed founded upon the principles therein... Swamp, can you document the principles of your belief system and show me how they relate to the governing principles contained in our constitution? I am pretty confident that you will not be able to Swamp.

Starting with Washington DC Swamp the Judeo/Christian principles are unmistakable. Washington DC the seat of our government being not a state is lifted directly out of the Bible. No other country Swamp has this arrangement... it is patterened after the power center of Israel the temple not being part of the jurisdiction of any of the tribes of Israel. But the tribes supported this power center. Anyhow if you study the dynamics of it America is an amazingly patterened replica.

[dirtdobber]

not to jump in the middle of you and swamps fight if you will but. this is what makes us all who we are you have your beliefs and he has his as I do mine. ? for you if we all ultimatly believe in the same GOD no matter how we get to him what is the problem with the different beliefs on how to get there.:)

[Orgnizdlbr]

On what do you base this opinion?




Ok, Swamp... enlighten us with your beliefs...
.........What principles other than Christianity do you believe this country was founded upon? What was the source; "in your belief system", from which the Constitution and Laws of this country were derived. I can show you Swamp, in a side by side comparison with the commandments that this country was indeed founded upon the principles therein... Swamp, can you document the principles of your belief system and show me how they relate to the governing principles contained in our constitution? I am pretty confident that you will not be able to Swamp.

Starting with Washington DC Swamp the Judeo/Christian principles are unmistakable. Washington DC the seat of our government being not a state is lifted directly out of the Bible. No other country Swamp has this arrangement... it is patterened after the power center of Israel the temple not being part of the jurisdiction of any of the tribes of Israel. But the tribes supported this power center. Anyhow if you study the dynamics of it America is an amazingly patterened replica.

[CenterPointEX]

Swamp this ain't the first and most probably not the last time you be dead wrong.

You made a statement that America was founded on principles other than Judeo/Christian... I asked if you would enlighten us on what those principles were and are... Instead of answering the question giving your beliefs about what principles you think America was founded on... You started Jesus Bashing and and telling me what you don't believe.

Swamp, my question was about what you stated you do believe... The statement that America and its governing documents were founded on principles other than Judeo/Christian... So again I ask the question Swamp... What are those principles?

Swamp, you... not unlike the Mormons... categorically refuse to examine evidence that is contrary to your religion... Swamp what you have is a religion... You believe things which have like the Mormons zero supporting evidence. The things you believe Swamp can only be believed from a position of faith... and thus Swamp... You Do Have a Religion...

DirtDobber, I base my statement on the words of the Bible... The Bible makes the claim that there is no other God than the the God of the Bible and that there is only one way to that God and that is thru the finished work of Jesus Christ... If the Bible is true Dirt Dobber then it does make a difference on how we get to God... Reverently worshiping a squirrel in your front yard and performing good works to achieve the blessing of that Squirrel will not... I repeat NOT! get you into Heaven... no matter how earnestly you believe it. The Bible teaches and do the Authority's of other religions Dirt Dobber that there is no truth outside of them... Any argument outside of this commits suicide. They can not all be true Dirt Dobber. An example of a suicidal argument DD would be if I said to someone, "I don't speak a word of English!" That argument commits suicide DD, because the minute I utter it, is it proven untrue. In the same vein DD, the Bible and the authorities of the other religions can not be at the same time true.

[CenterPointEX]

Absolutely correct. And if it(The Bible) Ain't all "True?";)
If the Bible ain’t TRUE Swamp, then the thousands of prophecies that have come to pass that were predicted in the Bible, are one hell of a coincidence of Cosmic proportions. The odds Swamp that all of them would come to pass are astronomical. The thousands of witnesses to the events surrounding the ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus were unanimously insane… Meaning that even though they were insane and gave false reports of the events… all their stories were so tight that in any court of law in this nation the jury would concur that these events happened just like the witnesses proclaimed. The Evidence Circumstantial or otherwise was and is airtight and irrefutable. If the Bible ain’t true Swamp… then even the first five that you claim to hold so tightly to are bunk… Rules made up by men. If the Evidence that proclaims the Bible is true can not be trusted… then there is no Truth Swamp… Then all bets are off… and survival of the fittest is the only rule… The guy with the biggest stick gets to make the rules…


So, how about it Swamp... you made a bold statement... I think you pulled that statement out of your arse and that the only thing you can back up your statement with is more of the same...


Swamp, you made the statement that this country was founded on principles other than Christian...

Please, Please, Please 'Swamp... Enlighten us with your hourves devoure....

[CenterPointEX]

You do not answer the questions Swamp because you come half cocked and make rediculus statements that have no, count em no supporting evidences.

Yes, Swamp, I have read just about everything Huxley wrote... we have been thru that... You on the other hand Swamp have not... we have established that also.

Ok Swamp, we have agreed that you believe Jesus lived. But that he was not born of a virgin... did not do any miricles, nor did he rise from the dead.

OK, Swamp lets start with what you do believe. He was born... he lived in Israel... He was born in Bethleham Judea...

Well Swamp, nobody disagrees with this... no historians will disagree that he was born in Bethleham.

Did you know Swamp, that 300 years before he was born, the prophet Malachi (MALACHI CHAPTER 4)predicted that he would be born in Bethleham? There is no dancing around that one Swamp... It said specificly that he would be born in Bethleham.

[dirtdobber]

from what BIBLE do you base your religion yes yove told us before but my point here is that while you believe that your BIBLE is the truth so dos ichmaul in iraq believe his is the truth. so as we can see that this religiuos crap goes round and round with you. and yes I believe what swamp said that your ?s are loaded so that you come out on top but you and I have argued before you know where I stand. seems you have an appetite for swamp to sway him unlikley. me I find some humor in some of your thoughts how long did it take you again to find the LORD our savior JESUS CHRIST I have forgotten what your answer was. me when I was a wee pup or young lad how ever you would like to word things because you can say the same things in soooo many different ways.:eek:

[CenterPointEX]

Swamp, nobody... ;Christian, Jew, Muslim, Agnostic (like yourself), or otherwise, nobody who has examined the evidence disputes the FACT that Jesus was born in Bethleham Judea. Neither ; Swamp, does anyone who has examined the evidence dispute the FACT that the prophet Malachi wrote three hundred years in advance that this would happen.

The only way to deny this irrefutable FACT Swamp is to put your head in the sand and say it ain't so.

Swamp if you stand on a train track with blinders and earplugs professing you don't believe in trains.... well we all know how that would end. No matter how sincere your disbelief in Trains... you would come face to face the existence of the train and suffer the consequences of your denial.

[CenterPointEX]

"Evidence".....?Well, your "truth" on evidence and mine....are sorta different. Let's use the Train analogy to see if your statement holds water like a Swamp...
"Evidence".....?Well, your "truth" on "Trains" and mine....are sorta different. Now Swamp... if you stand on the track and argue that Point... at the end of the day... it ain't gonna matter that you to have a different belief about trains than I do...
..........Look around you Swamp, there is a miricle surrounding you... but you seem to be blind to it... The miricle Swamp... is that anything exists at all... Because even you Swamp have enough snap to know that out of nothing, nothing comes. That is the teaching of the religion of evolution... Its Pundits proclaim that exactly that happened... Matter of fact Swamp... The evolutionist teach that first there was nothing... Then there was rocks... and then over a brazillion years... the acid rain pulled material off the rocks and formed amino acids... then somehow in the next chain of events... humans developed from the rocks?...

It is; and you can not deny that it is, a miricle that anything at all exists.

[CenterPointEX]

It is getting serious folks... If America as a nation does not soon go to its knees in repentence, asking mercy from the God of Abraham, Issiac, and Jacob... We will be given completly over to ourselves... This nation was undeniably founded as a people subject their Creator God... reflected in our founding documents... namely the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution... Most every origional pundit of those documents understood who and what Creator those documents called Sovereign.

Because of this we have been the most Genereous nation ever to grace the face of the earth. Because of this we have sent our troops all over the world to offer our very lives to perserve or give to those under the roof of tyranny... the hope of "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."

But alas Babylon...

Somehow we have in our blessings turned as a nation away from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ... We have begun marching down the road to becomming a Power without God... A Power without Conscience... A Power without conscience is a very scary thing... It provides for its own needs unconcious of the needs of brothers... Tyranical Power...

Yes... Obama Hussien wants change... Is America really ready for this change... Will we give ourselves over completly to becomming a Power without God... A Power without a Conscience...

America it is high time to get on your knees and cry,

"God save us from ourselves!"

In the end dear friends... Every knee will bow, and every tounge confess that Jesus Christ is Lord... Some out of Love and Peace... and some out of Bitterness and turmoil....

[wormy]

"God save us from ourselves!"

No God please save us from right wing nut jobs

[Orgnizdlbr]

CP, where ya been??? Hope all is well.


Now on the lighter side.....what ya been smokin?;)

[CenterPointEX]

Random Drug Testing is the Best thing that ever happend to me...

[CPOPE]

Raised Catholic but I'm a firm christian not having complete faith in the pagin rituals of the mass.

Can't we all just get along and agree on Gods Law. Live and let live the golden rule.

GOLDEN RULE Wite your own version.


Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful. Buddhism
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Christianity
Never do to others what you would not like them to do to you. Confucianism
This is the sum of all duty: do nothing to others which, if it were done to you, would cause you pain. Hinduism
None of you is a believer until you love for your neighbor what you love for yourself. Islamic
What is hateful to you, do not do to others. Judaism
Regard your neighbor’s gain as your own gain, and your neighbor’s loss as your own loss. Taoism
That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself. Zoroastrianism


Aha, now I feel beter. THat jerk that posts as Canidian Lineman had me pissed off.

[CenterPointEX]

Are you making the claim C. Pope that all religions are true and thus equal?
Raised Catholic but I'm a firm christian not having complete faith in the pagin rituals of the mass.

Can't we all just get along and agree on Gods Law. Live and let live the golden rule.

GOLDEN RULE Wite your own version.


Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful. Buddhism
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Christianity
Never do to others what you would not like them to do to you. Confucianism
This is the sum of all duty: do nothing to others which, if it were done to you, would cause you pain. Hinduism
None of you is a believer until you love for your neighbor what you love for yourself. Islamic
What is hateful to you, do not do to others. Judaism
Regard your neighbor’s gain as your own gain, and your neighbor’s loss as your own loss. Taoism
That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself. Zoroastrianism
Aha, now I feel beter. THat jerk that posts as Canidian Lineman had me pissed off.

[CenterPointEX]

“Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living.
If we continue to develop our technology without wisdom or prudence, our servant may prove to be our executioner
The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience
We have grasped the mystery of the atom and rejected the sermon on the mount.”


.................................................. ................General Omar Bradley

It is indeed insanity to jettison our Judeo Christian Roots and plant our moral feet firmly in midair... Witout Absolute Truth or Moral ground to stand on.
Sans moral fortitude, we can not expect to do anything else but serve ourselves...

Jesus said, "A man hath no greater love, than he lay down his life for another... We to this Point have been such a nation... We have up until the recent past, been a nation that serves God...

God, without question disciplines his own... If we are still One Nation Under God... then we can expect Him to tend to us... A Man who does not discipline his son... loves not his son...

Join me on my knees America... The time is nigh!


When did the "Under God" first appear in the Pledge?

From which Article in the Costitution did you quote the Creator language? Is the question rhetorical ? You and I both know that that phrase came not from the Constitution but rather from the Declaration of Independence... What's your Point? Every State in the Union... in their Constitutions make referance to God... My Point is that up until the recent past... Weather;storm, in 1776 or 1954 that got on our money matters not in the grand scheme of things...

[


The Unanimous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America
When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are (by God) created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator (God) with certain unalienable rights,... whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government,...Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes;... But when a ... (The gov no longer respects its people), it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, ... (The King of England) has made judges dependent on his will alone, for the tenure of their offices,...We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled, appealing to (God) the Supreme Judge of the world for the (as an authority to the moral correctness)/rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by the authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, that these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states;... And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of (God) Divine Providence (If you look up the meaning of "Divine Providence" in Webster, you find thit to mean,"Under the protection of and being in the will of God"), we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.



Our founding Fathers were 99% Christians... Our founding Fathers understood us to be a nation under God from inception. A Nation under Divine Providence. Our founding Fathers did not deem it necessary to define who the Creator God was and is, because it was understood; by the framers of the Constitution and the audience to which they addressed the Declaration of INdependance, who that God was. It was their as it is my firm belief, that when we cease to be "One Nation Under God", We will cease to be the United States of America.

It was the understanding of one of those framers Thomas Jefferson. The same Jefferson who in a letter to the Danbury Baptists assured them, that because of the protections in the 1st ammendment, the Goverment would make no laws interfering with the free exercise of worshiping this God. He assured them that the protections in the ammendment set up a wall over which the Goverment could and would not come over to interfer with their worship of this God. Should this unlikely event come to pass, we have the edict from the Declaration to throw off this goverment and start over. In the same vein as the passengers of the MayFlower who signed the May Flower Compact... the Womb of the U.S. constitution.

Every State Constitution there after mentioned God as their Authority. Many of these Constitutions defined exactly who that God was and is. Eboldened by the Contstitution of the United States, they harbored no restraint in doing so.

[Orgnizdlbr]

.................................................. ................General Omar Bradley

It is indeed insanity to jettison our Judeo Christian Roots and plant our moral feet firmly in midair... Witout Absolute Truth or Moral ground to stand on.
Sans moral fortitude, we can not expect to do anything else but serve ourselves...

Jesus said, "A man hath no greater love, than he lay down his life for another... We to this Point have been such a nation... We have up until the recent past, been a nation that serves God...

God, without question disciplines his own... If we are still One Nation Under God... then we can expect Him to tend to us... A Man who does not discipline his son... loves not his son...

Join me on my knees America... The time is nigh!

Is the question rhetorical ? You and I both know that that phrase came not from the Constitution but rather from the Declaration of Independence... What's your Point? Every State in the Union... in their Constitutions make referance to God... My Point is that up until the recent past... Weather;storm, in 1776 or 1954 that got on our money matters not in the grand scheme of things...


Very interesting, and self serving edit job. You know my question was not rhetorical, and you know why I posed the question.

I could care less what each and every state's constitution say, I rely on the US Constitution as the Law of the land, and the intent of the Framers who wrote the US constitution.

[CenterPointEX]

Our Beloved Constitution OGB... if Hussean Obama gets his way... will be subverted... If they gag the Conservative Radio talking Heads with the Fairness Doctrine... They will effectivley have mitigated FREE Speech... and after the Airwaves... The internet will be next... The Internet will be easy... Web Crawling Worms seeking out and destroying
"Newspeak Violations"

[Boomer gone soft]

Cpoint,

One Nation under God is a phrase from the pledge of allegiance not the declaration of Independence. It was written by Francis Bellamy in 1892. (BTW, Swamp, Bellamy was a Christian Socialist.) The phrase under God was not adopted until 1954 more to distinguish us from Communism than an attempt to establish national theology. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

Furthermore, our forefathers would not call themselves Christian. The majority of them would more closely resemble "Deists".

Deism is the belief that a supreme natural God exists and created the physical universe, and that religious truths can be arrived at by the application of reason and observation of the natural world. Deists generally reject the notion of supernatural revelation as a basis of truth or religious dogma. These views contrast with the dependence on divine revelation found in many Christian,[1] Islamic and Judaic teachings.

Deists typically reject most supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and tend to assert that God (or "The Supreme Architect") has a plan for the universe which he does not alter either by intervening in the affairs of human life or suspending the natural laws of the universe. What organized religions see as divine revelation and holy books, most deists see as interpretations made by other humans, rather than as authoritative sources.

Deism became prominent in the 17th and 18th centuries during the Age of Enlightenment, especially in the United Kingdom, France and the United States, mostly among those raised as Christians who found they could not believe in either a triune God, the divinity of Jesus, miracles, or the inerrancy of scriptures, but who did believe in one god. Initially it did not form any congregations, but in time deism strongly influenced other religious groups, such as Unitarianism, and Unitarian Universalism, which developed from it. It continues to this day in the form of classical deism and modern deism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

Finally, I would like to point out a significant number of the founding fathers were Freemasons, and as such, would NEVER promote one system of beliefs over another. Even further back, the Puritans, Pilgrims, etc. came to the colonies in search of religious freedom.

FUNDAMENTALISM whether Islam, Judism, or CHRISTIAN is the belief they have the market cornered on understanding our Creator. All of them are EQUALLY DANGEROUS.

No finite mind, (NONE OF US), can completely understand the infinite (God).

Let's give each other a break.:D

[Orgnizdlbr]

Cpoint,

One Nation under God is a phrase from the pledge of allegiance not the declaration of Independence. It was written by Francis Bellamy in 1892. (BTW, Swamp, Bellamy was a Christian Socialist.) The phrase under God was not adopted until 1954 more to distinguish us from Communism than an attempt to establish national theology. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

Furthermore, our forefathers would not call themselves Christian. The majority of them would more closely resemble "Deists".

Deism is the belief that a supreme natural God exists and created the physical universe, and that religious truths can be arrived at by the application of reason and observation of the natural world. Deists generally reject the notion of supernatural revelation as a basis of truth or religious dogma. These views contrast with the dependence on divine revelation found in many Christian,[1] Islamic and Judaic teachings.

Deists typically reject most supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and tend to assert that God (or "The Supreme Architect") has a plan for the universe which he does not alter either by intervening in the affairs of human life or suspending the natural laws of the universe. What organized religions see as divine revelation and holy books, most deists see as interpretations made by other humans, rather than as authoritative sources.

Deism became prominent in the 17th and 18th centuries during the Age of Enlightenment, especially in the United Kingdom, France and the United States, mostly among those raised as Christians who found they could not believe in either a triune God, the divinity of Jesus, miracles, or the inerrancy of scriptures, but who did believe in one god. Initially it did not form any congregations, but in time deism strongly influenced other religious groups, such as Unitarianism, and Unitarian Universalism, which developed from it. It continues to this day in the form of classical deism and modern deism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

Finally, I would like to point out a significant number of the founding fathers were Freemasons, and as such, would NEVER promote one system of beliefs over another. Even further back, the Puritans, Pilgrims, etc. came to the colonies in search of religious freedom.

FUNDAMENTALISM whether Islam, Judism, or CHRISTIAN is the belief they have the market cornered on understanding our Creator. All of them are EQUALLY DANGEROUS.

No finite mind, (NONE OF US), can completely understand the infinite (God).

Let's give each other a break.:D

Uh Oh, Hey CP, seems that there is another here who views this issue in the manner and fashion I do........Boomer, CP and I have debated this for a long time, I think I'll sit back and watch this one.

A bit of advice, he sometimes gets frustrated and name calls.... he dont really mean nothin by it.......;)

[CHICAGO HAND.]

FUNDAMENTALISM whether Islam, Judism, or CHRISTIAN is the belief they have the market cornered on understanding our Creator. All of them are EQUALLY DANGEROUS



Jesus said " I am the way the truth and the life: no man come to the father but by me "


Now Jesus was such a dangerous fundamentalist that they killed him. Funny how he never harmed anyone. He was such a dangerous man that many of his true followers went out and changed the world. Oh how dangerous some of these Christians are, they go out to help feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the jails, adopt the unwanted, preach freedom from addiction, help restore broken families, etc. Oh what a wicked group some christians are.

[Orgnizdlbr]

FUNDAMENTALISM whether Islam, Judism, or CHRISTIAN is the belief they have the market cornered on understanding our Creator. All of them are EQUALLY DANGEROUS



Jesus said " I am the way the truth and the life: no man come to the father but by me "


Now Jesus was such a dangerous fundamentalist that they killed him. Funny how he never harmed anyone. He was such a dangerous man that many of his true followers went out and changed the world. Oh how dangerous some of these Christians are, they go out to help feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the jails, adopt the unwanted, preach freedom from addiction, help restore broken families, etc. Oh what a wicked group some christians are.


And some Christians murder in the name of the Lord. And some Christians are pedophiles who get caught, and then their church covers it up. So your point is what?

[CHICAGO HAND.]

Jesus was a fundamentalist. How dangerous was he ?????
Let me know when you can find some proof of his crimes.
I will be waiting.
boomer stated that a fundamentalist is dangerous, I am waiting for some evidence of how dangerous Jesus Christ was and is.

[CenterPointEX]

pray tell me Boomer....which of our founding fathers do you claim were Deists... and give me the details of why you believe they are Diests.

98 percent of the men who signed the Declatration of Independence and authored the Constitution were Christians Boomer...

You make the claim they were not Christians but rather Diests... Give me the details... Which of them were Diests... and what led you to make this claim...

OGB... are who is it you say is a name caller? Myself or Boober?

[Orgnizdlbr]

pray tell me Boomer....which of our founding fathers do you claim were Deists... and give me the details of why you believe they are Diests.

98 percent of the men who signed the Declatration of Independence and authored the Constitution were Christians Boomer...

You make the claim they were not Christians but rather Diests... Give me the details... Which of them were Diests... and what led you to make this claim...

OGB... are who is it you say is a name caller? Myself or Boober?


Is that a trick question........??

[Boomer gone soft]

http://earlyamericanhistory.net/founding_fathers.htm

Cp,

To answer your question, very few of the early fathers could be called "Christian" by your definition: 1. took communion 2. believed in the divinity of Christ 3. accepted miracles 4. accepted the Trinity 5. were baptized 6. went to confirmation.

All of this is easily researchable if you are truly interested in learning facts.

What you obviously believe is not historical fact.

There is a lot of right-wing revisionist history, but the fact is fundamental right-wing "christian" theology was not the beliefs of many (if any) of the founding fathers.

That does not mean I think your beliefs are right or wrong.

It simply means there is no documentation suggesting they were shared by men such as George Washington, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, etc.

[wtdoor67]

Facts and logic make it very hard. Let's stay with rumors and innuendo. Much easier to deal with.

[Boomer gone soft]

Jesus was a fundamentalist. How dangerous was he ?????
Let me know when you can find some proof of his crimes.
I will be waiting.
boomer stated that a fundamentalist is dangerous, I am waiting for some evidence of how dangerous Jesus Christ was and is.

Chicago,

Historically and objectively speaking Jesus was the most dangerous man who ever lived. One poor fatherless carpenter who never travelled more than 100 miles from home over 2000 years ago has sparked more change and debate/controversy than any other person who has ever lived. (As a side note I think it's worth noting he hung out with fisherman and prostitutes--the ancient equivalent to linemen.)

He's not the problem.

His "followers" are. You know the type. Spanish Inquisition. 3 crusades. Right-wing Republicans....the ones who are angry and want to convert through intimidation and name calling....the ones who shoot abortion doctors because "killing is wrong".:rolleyes:

The scriptures say, "Come now. Let us reason together...." Jesus was not making threats during the sermon on the mount. He was feeding 5000 with 2 loaves of bread and 5 fishes. Paul was not calling the Athenians names while he was preaching on Mar's Hill.

Again I say,

Let's give each other a break. We are ALL on our own SPIRITUAL JOURNEY. Let's help one another rather than tear each other down.:)

[CHICAGO HAND.]

On one hand you say he was the most dangerous man who ever lived, "historically and objectively".
But then you say he is not the problem it is his followers, nice try dude but how dangerous are the athiests who have killed countless millions in the name of communism ? when you start placing them in the killing scale I will start taking you serious.
Right wing Republicans oh ya I can see your comparison now those are some real savages right up there with Hitler and Stalin.
The teachings of Jesus were very devisive. Heaven or hell, there was no middle ground. I am sorry if I came in late for the mane calling but when you mentioned how dangerous fundamentalists are I asked you for evidence about the dangers of Christ.
You are good at looking at the evils of this world some of which was committed by those "professing" to be christians but I doubt if many were true converts. Some of those false christians were out there burning many for following Christ and not recanting things such as baptism and not bowing down to the church. Now you seem like a well read fellow so I am sure you can do some research on church history and figure out who was a true follower and who was working for satan. When we put blame in perspective we will all be better off. I do not agree to blame Christ for the actions of others. I would be glad to help any who truly seek the savior.
Anyway gotta go, kids are a callin.

[Boomer gone soft]

On one hand you say he was the most dangerous man who ever lived, "historically and objectively".
But then you say he is not the problem it is his followers, nice try dude but how dangerous are the athiests who have killed countless millions in the name of communism ? when you start placing them in the killing scale I will start taking you serious.
Right wing Republicans oh ya I can see your comparison now those are some real savages right up there with Hitler and Stalin.
The teachings of Jesus were very devisive. Heaven or hell, there was no middle ground. I am sorry if I came in late for the mane calling but when you mentioned how dangerous fundamentalists are I asked you for evidence about the dangers of Christ.
You are good at looking at the evils of this world some of which was committed by those "professing" to be christians but I doubt if many were true converts. Some of those false christians were out there burning many for following Christ and not recanting things such as baptism and not bowing down to the church. Now you seem like a well read fellow so I am sure you can do some research on church history and figure out who was a true follower and who was working for satan. When we put blame in perspective we will all be better off. I do not agree to blame Christ for the actions of others. I would be glad to help any who truly seek the savior.
Anyway gotta go, kids are a callin.

Read what I said.

If you want to be offended by that, fine.

Don't be offended by what I did not say.:p

[returntotheeve]

So who did the killing? Atheists or communists? Atheists in the name of communism? Communists in the name of atheism?

[IronLine]

(cough) CRUSADES (cough) ;)

But of course that was us Commies ya know, just trying to build our vast empire :D

[returntotheeve]

Hey I heard something about something that is primarily a christian thing. What is saddlebacking?

[CHICAGO HAND.]

Read what I said.

If you want to be offended by that, fine.

Don't be offended by what I did not say.


It is gonna take alot more than that to offend me. I grew up in a family of 8 and I had a pretty rough paper route.