"The Da Vinci Code"

[CenterPointEX]

That ain't drunken wisdom...That's factual reality. It just comes out from your gut, ...The Truth is the Truth though...
Oh....BTW CP'ster............
"The Da Vinci Code" movie is comin out next month. What's your take on that, bulldog? I've read the book. Lookin forward to the movie....YOU gonna see it? You read the book? ...I'm SURE you got a take......:-)................................................. ....................

Safe Sex... Holy SEX... Holy Grail... HOly Womb

First I will say, Dan Brown is a good entertaining writer... He is no Grishim but, he is a good articulator none the less...

"The Da Vinci Code" Cover says Novel... Page 1 first word says "FACT" then lists lies coupled with facts... A good mystry plays out intermingled with these supposed facts...Then in the last paragraph of the last page Dan Brown reveals the Holy Grail... The Point of the Book... That all men should come to the end of the quest and bow at the Bones of Mary Magdelin and worship her as the godess she is... the godess Christ intended to lift up... Aphrodite... Venus... Isis... Dianah... which ever of her names you chose to call her... And after the Mary Mag bones comment... It continues... "And Pray to the Outcast One." I contend that the Outcast one is none other than El Diablo Hisself.

If you have read the book, then you know that what Dan Brown and Swamp seek to do is what all cults seek to do... Redifine Christ...
All cults (Mormans, Jehovahs Wittnesses, Unitarians, Muslims, Christian Scientists, HIndues, etc.) seek to neuter Jesus of his Diety...
Make him a sinner... and if a sinner then not God...

.....Jesus was crucified by his own people who made him to be a sinner... Impuned or otherwise...

In the words of Dan Brown...,
. . ..... "Jesus was no more God than you and I are."

Dan Brown believes that Jesus was screwing Mary Mag and that Mary Mag was really the one we were supposed to build the church on... not The Rock... Peters confession that Jesus was the Son of God... Those male chauvenist Apostles hijacked the Christian movement out of jealous pride... or so the Gnostic gospels purport...

....What it really is, that Dan Brown preaches, is the repackaged worship of the female diety Isis... who was the wife of Nimrod deified... which I have discussed at length in an earlier thread... If you want to see, if what I say is true, don't bother reading the whole book... just read the first three pages, then read the last chapter...

... The goddes Isis is a fertility god... they renamed her Diana in the time of Jesus... Diana is mentioned in the book of acts I beleive... The folks were angry because the Jesus movement was causing a slump in the sales of their statue of Isis or Diana... putting the local ecomony in a bit of a bind...Any way they had temple prostitutes whom ya had Safe Sex with, to get purified for your bad deeds... They also had holy prostitutes who sired children of the holy blood line... A.KA. Holy Blood, Holy Grail... The holy grail or holy recepticle or holy womb, if you will, according to Dan Brown, is Mary Mag... who screwed Jesus and sired his children... and according to what they teach, the blood line comes down thru the female... and so the holy womb has been breeding the blood line down to this day... siring all sorts of holy dudes... Wiccas, templor knights, Masons, witches... etc...

On page 432 of the book Mr. Brown talks about a chapel in Edinberg you can go visit that has all sorts of relics from these religions... The stones are carved with symbols of all the religions that are one... Pentagrams, Templar crosses, pyramids, masonic symbols, etc..

If the Jesus defined in the Da Vincie Code is who he really is, then the Bible as we know it is B.S. ... Jesus did not die for our Sins... If Jesus did not pay the price for our sins, then in order to go on in the next life we must somehow pay the price for our sin ourself... or maybe if we do fifty one percent more good than we do bad, we get into heaven... who knows... If Dan Brown is right, then we really do not have any truth, and all truths are equaly vallid or equally B.S. ...

Folks will jump at this just as they jumped at Darwinism, because it frees them up to pursue without guilt, all of their sexual passions... Safe SEX if you will...
..........................

[CenterPointEX]

Point taken, I researched it and did not find any colaboration... I apologise again... The Popes are of Apostolic succession... not of the grail...
siring all sorts of holy dudes... Wiccas, templor knights, Masons, witches... etc... On page 432 of the book Mr. Brown talks about a chapel outside edinburg you can go visit that has all sorts of relics from these religions...The blocks of this temple are carved with symbols from all the Pagan religions... Pentagrams, templar crosses, masonic symbols etc.... Dan Brown concludes in the end, that all religions are one... and their Mother is the fertility God MOther Nature...Isis/Venus/Diana/etc....

Christianity is the only religion based on evidence... All other religions are the result of one mans thoughts and teachings...

One has to abandon the evidence to suscribe to Dan Browns assertations... The Gnostic gospels were written in the fourth century... They use excerpts from the Biblical gospels ;dated in the first century, stripped of referances to the old testiment. Just the fact that they refer to the Biblical gospels and Pauls epistles lets us know that they are written way after...

[CenterPointEX]

Christianity is the only religion based on evidence............
What about Judiasm? Bingo... you are correct Sir... The Judeo Christian God is one and the same... Christians are actually Jews.
:) cp I mean no disrespect but sometimes you should leave your religious believes to your self and not dispose them on others unless asked AM AND WILL ALWAYS BE A GOD FEARING MAN! :) What God do you fear DirtDober?... If you fear the God of Abraham, Issiac, and Jacob... Then you are commanded to not keep quiet about the hope that is in you... You are commanded to tell folks of your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and what he has done for you...

... .. .. Jewish history is actually what gives Christianity its historicity and authenticity... The early civilizations in the Bible have been and are being discovered as archeology of the middle east advances... Giving more and more creedence to the history in the Bible... No other religion can make this claim...

....The whole of the Old Testiment i.e. the Jewish Bible points forward to the Messiah, Jesus Christ... The Jewish people are still waiting for him... The first Christian maryter Stephen, illustrates this eloquently in the book of Acts... as he recounts Jewish history before the Sanhedrin... There is mention of Jesus outside the Judeo Christian circles in history... At the time of the writings of the new testiments there were thousands of wittnesses still alive who had seen and walked with Jesus... Isreal was a small country... nothing happened there in secret... everybody knew of everybody... My Point is that if the things written were not true... Christianity would never have gotten off the ground... Most of the first Christians were Jewish by birth...

To quote the book of Romans for you, " A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, neither is Circumcision merely outward and physical, no, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly, and Circumcision is Circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by written code..."

[CenterPointEX]

Think cp needs to run for pope one of these yrs, he seems to know more about all forms of religion better then any of the others out there preachin today If you know the enemy VPX, you will see him comming and won't be blind sided by him... I filter all things thru the Word... in doing so; just as putting on a pair of polarized sunglasses on a sunny day, the World becomes less stressful to deal with and easier to see...

[CenterPointEX]

Quote:

Think cp needs to run for pope one of these yrs, he seems to know more about all forms of religion better then any of the others out there preachin today




Originally Posted by OGB One thing CP has is conviction, he deserves credit for that. I do not agree with many of his positions, but he has conviction.




Originally Posted by CPX Christianity is the only religion based on evidence... One has to abandon the evidence to suscribe to Dan Browns assertations... The Gnostic gospels were written in the fourth century... They use excerpts from the Biblical gospels ;dated in the first century, stripped of referances to the old testiment. Just the fact that they refer to the Biblical gospels and Pauls epistles lets us know that they are written way after...



Originally Posted by OGB I do not ascribe to Mr. Browns assertions, he basically plagerized the book from a book written in the 70's or 80's called Holy Blood, Holy Grail, but you know that. His ideas are niether new or his own, but he is reaping huge profit from the plagerization....he'll enjoy it here, but he cant take it with him.....
__________________................................ .................................................. .........

[topgroove]

If the Jesus defined in the Da Vincie Code is who he really is, then the Bible as we know it is B.S.

No its true...Really! I'm actually related. And that whole tempel prostitute thing was a great idea. We've gotta bring that one back. I'm fairly certain it would fill the church every Sunday with men who wish to purify themselves of sin.

[CenterPointEX]

Origionaly Posted by dirtdobber
children C.P. six of them 2 girls 4 boys all 4 boys including self no circumsision!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


What about the true Circumcision Dirtdobber?...

...Circumcision of the heart... done by the Master Surgen... The one who removes degenerate failing hearts and replaces them with new... eternal ones... infusing in them imortality....

Kind a has a Kung Fu ring to it does it not Dirtdobber? But this ain't about no Kung Fu... I reckon you know that though... Your on the right track Dirt Dobber... Keep searching the scriptures... and beseech Wisdom, that He might reveal to you Truth... He will not deny such a request from one of his Children... Children of the Circumcision... Born of the Water and the Blood...

When He returns, those who pierced him will gaze upon Him... and never again will anyone claim no knowledge of Truth...

(http://editpost.php?do=editpost&p=18140)

[dirtdobber]

C.P. a couple ? for you god created ADAM & EVE tell me where we all descended from that point. where did the diff colors come from we all still bleed RED maybe the tower of babilon not sure yet best I can remember someone viewed there FATHER in his nakedness so he was marked maybe stained from the grapes his FATHER was turning into WINE that he in return was drunken by just want to know? one more if GOD created us who created GOD & please dont give me the same old song & dance most BIBLE THUMPERS DO THANKS! I believe in the LORD our savior but dont belittle the ? :D

[CenterPointEX]

We will start with the last question first... Nobody created God... God always existed... Impossible you say? Well you must conceed that that there are things that have always existed... Gods creation reeks of his image...

What has always existed, has no beginnig or end?

God... the Trintity ... Father, Son, and Holy Spirt... three whos... one What...


The Universe is an image of that... Time, Space, and Matter... Three things distinct, eternal, and infinate that make up one thing... The Universe... always existed according to science... no beginning, no end...

As far as our mind can comprehend, and then infinately beyond that, space goes on...

Thus matter...

Thus time stretches eternaly backward and forward...

The lenght, width, and depth of the Universe are infinate

Time,,, past, present and future

Matter... electron, neutron, and proton

H2o... liquid, solid, gas...

Human...body, soul and spirit... Science knows a lot about the body, but next to nothing about the soul and spirit...

Can a human mind comprehend the infinity of Space?... Anything that could comprehend that infinity would have to be bigger than that infinity... Subsequently we will never have the ability to fully comprehend God... Now consider the wonder of a God that big wanting to have a personal relationship with you... His creation...

and then consider him taking on the created form and walking among us... and then consider him laying aside His mighty power and glory and taking the disguise of a slave... and tolerating our rejection of Him to the Point of letting us destroy the temple/tent/body that He inhabited here on earth.... He was crucified for revealing Truth... Folks don't want to hear truth... cause they have to aquies to a power outside themselves if'n they adhere to the Truth...

[dirtdobber]

as for your first answer.those preachers that claim to laith thy hands of GOD on you and be healed or GOD spoke to me are lying about these things in order for (in GOD we trust) money.as for response #2 what your saying between the lines is incest is or was o.k. so this is why we have a criminal element in us all that we continually fight.there was a post by I believe was swamprat about the 2 dogs! still no remark on the tower of babilon. there were trying to build a tower in order to reach GOD so this is my take.GOD created the different languages so they couldnot complete the task at hand. what is your thought. :)

[CenterPointEX]

....those preachers that claim to laith thy hands of GOD on you and be healed or GOD spoke to me are lying about these things in order for (in GOD we trust) money.as for response... When Jesus was tempted in the dessert... Satan took him to the pinnacle of the temple and told Him to jump to prove he was who he said he was... Jesus answered with the Sword/Word and told Satan that it also says" Thou shalt not put the Lord your God to a test." God does the testing... not the other way around...
.....The T.V. Healers reduce God to a monkey on a leash... Look at the tricks God can do... If you send in $9.99 we will make God roll over for you also... I don't know if them fellas know it or not, but God won't do tricks for nine or nine million dollars... God is looking for a heart that understands that all things come from Him... It's like... If I were sending my Son to Texas A&M... which I am... and I went up there to visit and asked him to spring for a "Venti Drip" and he refused... Well, if'n I sending him to A&M... I reckon I could aford my own cup? But that is not the Point... and the T.V. preachers healers know that... By the way... most of the fellas you are refering to have a label... The movement is called "Word of Faith" subtitled "Name it Claim it." If you ain't claimed it yet its cause you don't have the balls to put God to a test...

The Problem with marrying your sister now is corrupted genes... inbreeding intenseifies the corruption... So now we have an edict against it... Like I said before... if we do not have an absolute source of right and wrong... then there is nothing really wrong with anything we do... Unless someone else objects to it... We wouldn't want to offend anyone in this politicaly correct age now would we?... Prior to these corrupted genes... we did not have this problem...

.....Now if evolution were the way it happened... even then our first ancesters came from one cell that somehow screwed itself enough to the point that an Adam and an Eve emerged... and they subsequently had children who screwed each other... and so on and so forth... So this is not really a good argument against Creation... Either way we came from the same Genisis...

Same goes for the question of, Where did God come from?... In any scenario... Creation or Evolution... there had to be an uncaused first cause... think about it... before there was something... there was nothing?... This is a most unreconcileable thesis... It is not possible that before there was something... there was nothing...

so this is why we have a criminal element in us all that we continually fight.
The criminal element comes from our desire to be our own God... follow our own rules... not Gods... We want to be God of our own lives... and Satan sold us the lie that this is a possible dream... Because of this dream, the world crumbles around us... just ask the Scientists... they will concur that the world crumbles...

As far as the colors go... lizzards change colors to match their surroundings... they in kind adapt to thier envoirment... So do humans... God made us that way... Yes after Babel... those of like voice migrated to gather with those of like voice... They adapted to where they were... Even today if'n a fella spends a lot of time in the sun or not... his pigmentation reflects this... The machines in his body rearrange to produce pigment to protect him from the enviorment... and he passes this on to his children... What is so suprising about that? But we don't develop extra arms, etc...

[topgroove]

OH GREAT ! YOU MEAN I WASTED MY $9.99 ! Dammit the guy on the phone said god would cure me of my beer belly if I sent the money in.

[harley]

you will be cured of a beer belly if you send in enough money so that you can not afford to buy beer....... please send the excess funds my direction

[topgroove]

thanks harley, but i've decided if can't do it for $9.99 then it can't really be gods will! I've desided to have the stations of the cross tatooed on it. God works in mystrerious ways!

[CenterPointEX]

OH GREAT ! YOU MEAN I WASTED MY $9.99 ! I reckon you sent in your 9.99 for that Nurse Stiffing Plan also... I bet you even tried to pimp out that blow up nurse...

[dirtdobber]

o.k why in the hell do we white people end up with skin cancer if we are suppose to be like lizzards as you say we change with the enviroment we live in. and still no answer to why the confusion at the tower of babylon? :)

[CenterPointEX]

The Babylon confusion?... Man was gettin too smart for his britches... Uninted against God... The time was not yet ready for the last battle... So he seperated the bad guys... Cancer is a result of Sin... Thorns is a result of Sin... My sin and your sin... Its a bit ironic that Christ Wore a crown full of our sin...

We don't change as fast as lizzards... God made us that way... Whats the Point of this line of questioning anyway?

[dirtdobber]

because CHRIST died to cleans us of our sins we still to this day are suffering these skin cancers and such.even though we are GOD fearing and read and PREACH the BIBLE to others we should still suffer. due to the sins that were created by ADAM & EVE of long ago? the 7 tribes of ISREAL were dispersed to where at at this day and age? you & I could argue for days here I'm just trying to figure what RELIGION you follow CATHOLIC PRIMITIVE BAPTIST LUTHERAN you know I could keep on as for me I like to follow my heart and belief. why do some CHURCHES bring in guest preachers then pay him for his time I feel that if his true convection is to pass on the word of the LORD OUR SAVIOR he should be willing to except a meal and a bed but no money for his time and your thoughts on this?

[CenterPointEX]

I think the question you ask is, "Why, if God is good, and all powerful... Why does he not eliminate suffering?" .."Is it not within Gods power to eliminate suffering?" "Why, did Jesus; who sinned not, have to suffer?"
...we should still suffer? due to the sins that were created by ADAM & EVE of long ago? Adam and Eve did not create sin... They chose to partake of the knowledge of good and evil... and they passed that down to thier children... In a sense we suffer from the Sin of Adam and Eve... but mostly, we suffer from our own sin... Our possesion of the knowledge of Evil causes all things to degrade, this earth included... God did not create robots... He gave us a will... He created us in His Image... We are cleansed of our sins in the sense that we will never have to pay the penalty... which is eternal life apart from Gods love... eternity in the knowledge of evil...

.....Ok... If a fella decides to kill the mother of his children... Will the children suffer from the sin of the Father? Then if the children refuse to forgive the Father... and grow in bitterness... and act out that bitterness in drug abuse or abuse of others... Does the child then suffer from his own sin or the sin of his Father? ...I reckon the answer is both... Can that child of his own accord, forgive his murderous Father? I really don't think so... it is not human nature to forgive this sort of thing... human nature passed down from Adam and Eve... But,... if that child turns to God and asks the Lord God to forgive his unforgiving nature... and asks God help him forgive the wrong done unto him... God will grant this request...

If we love only those who love us... do we change the world? ...No, because that is the nature of the world...

If we do good for those who hate us, and pray for them... that is not the nature of man... That is the nature of God...

Thus, we can not do such a thing of our own accord... such a nature can only come from Christ... dwelling in us... He will not force his way in... He stands at the door and knocks...

You will be delievered from suffering dirtdobber... if you so desire... If you trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ, who suffered for your sins... Because he took a beating for my sin... I had had a hand in his beating... he took this beating not for just me... but for you also...

Because this world is affected by Sin... all who dwell in this world, will continue to suffer as long as they remain in it... But those who suffer in Christ are sustained thru it in the hope and faith that they will be delievered from it...

The only folks in heaven... will be those who desire to be there... God will not force anyone who does not desire his love, to spend eternity with Him...

[Orgnizdlbr]

I think the question you ask is, "Why, if God is good, and all powerful... Why does he not eliminate suffering?" .."Is it not within Gods power to eliminate suffering?"




ya gotta admit CP, the question has merit. So explain to me, a dumb yankee Lineman....why doesnt the all powerful God eliminate world suffering????

[CenterPointEX]

ya gotta admit CP, the question has merit. So explain to me, a dumb yankee Lineman....why doesnt the all powerful God eliminate world suffering???? The question you now ask OGB is "Why does God not eliminate free will?" God made this earth and its systems with restrictions... Same as a man would grant his children free reign within boundries... Not for the sake of inhibiting the childs free will... but to protect the child from things of which the child does not have knowledge...
... If a man were to chop off his finger... he would suffer.. the rest of his earthly life he will be restricted because of a choice he made to chop off his finger... hopefully we learn things from watching folks make decisions like this... We have free will... we chose to sin... we suffer... God allows us to make such a choice... becuase He loves us... All that is required of us, is to accept that love... and at the end of the day... for those that so choose... suffering will be eliminated... Our years on earth are but a breath... you are getting up there as well as I OGB... so you understand this... We have lived more than half our life already... and it seems but a blip of time...

But... I digress... to tell you the truth... I don't know why God does not now eliminate suffering... When Job asked this question, God basicly said, "I Am God... take a chill pill Job... and wait on me... I will deliever in good time!"
... .. . . John the Babtist asked the same question also... he sent word to Jesus, "Are you the one who was/is to come?... or shall we look for another?" John was in prison, fixing to get his head chopped off... he lamented that if Jesus was so all powerful... Why was his servent John rotting in Prison?...
.... .. The thief on the cross next to Jesus also asked the same question, "If you are so all powerful... why don't you get yourself down off that cross and us too while you are at it?"

... Then there is my Uncle Richard... He divorces his wife... marries a knockout lawyer... the lawyer gets althiemers, suffers and dies... and Richard get pissed off at God for allowing the lawyer to die... screwing up his life?... Hello?

[Orgnizdlbr]

... Then there is my Uncle Richard... He divorces his wife... marries a knockout lawyer... the lawyer gets althiemers, suffers and dies... and Richard get pissed off at God for allowing the lawyer to die... screwing up his life?... Hello?



My question was more of an abstract nature....Why would a Loving God allow such things as Cancer?

[Orgnizdlbr]

Believe it or not... God allows cancer that we might turn to Him... If there were not consequences to breaking Gods Law/sinning then God would not be God... because God would not be good... If your twenty six year old son gets his self in trouble with credit cards.... Do you bail him out... or do you let him learn? Life on earth is a time of decision for us... Do we desire to do it Gods way... which brings abundant life?... or do we want to do it our own way... which brings death... a dieing world... thorns... cancer... suffering... etc.? For the sake of space I left out part of the following... but if you read the full context, you will find I just lifted out the Points...
Isaiah 30

...1"Destruction is certain for my rebellious children," says the LORD. "You make plans that are contrary to my will.... 5it will all turn out to your shame. 9For these people are stubborn rebels who refuse to pay any attention to the LORD's instructions. 10They tell the prophets, "Shut up! ..." They say, "Don't tell us the truth. Tell us nice things. Tell us lies. ...12This is the reply of the Holy One of Israel: "Because you despise what I tell you and trust instead in oppression and lies,... 13calamity will come upon you suddenly. It will be like a bulging wall that bursts and falls (CANCER or any other malady you want to insert) . In an instant it will collapse and come crashing down. 20Though the Lord gave you adversity for food and affliction for drink, he will still be with you to teach you.

Sick cancer cell walls burst and crumble... in fact this is the nature of death... the cell walls burst and crumble...

This passage goes on to say if we turn to God and trust in HIm, he will deliever us from our suffering... But... we will have to wait on His good time...

My Point on Uncle Richard is that his suffering is of his own doing... Yet he blames God... Same as us who suffer in this world... a bastion of Sin... our sin manifests that which ails us... namely "Death"... The bigger question than cancer is "Why does God allow death? ...Same reason the Supreme Court does I reckon...

Why then are babies afflicted with cancers such as lukemia and such, have they refused to pay attention to the Lord's instructions? At what age does one have the knowledge to recognise the intent of scripture so the person can abide by scripiture?

[CenterPointEX]

Ya reckon babies feel pain? How old do they have to be to feel pain? I reckon you know where I am going with this line of questioning...

...That in the womb, they are already humans/sinners... God knows how they will choose... So now the question becomes...If God knows they will chose not to trust in Him... why does He even let them live? And as far as that goes... If he knows all will Sin... and the penalty for Sin according to his own law is death... Why does He let anybody live?

Psalm 51:5 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Psalm+51:5&version=31) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Psalm+51&version=31)
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Psalm 58:3
Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.

Hosea 13:13
In the womb he grasped his brother's heel; as a man he struggled with God.

Luke 1:44
As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.

It would seem from these scriptures that even in the womb... a childs personality can be known...


Why then are babies afflicted with cancers... have they refused to pay attention to the Lord's instructions? (What is the age of accountability?) God did not give Job a reason for his suffering except that because of it, Gods work would be displayed in his life... Babies are afflicted with Cancer for the same reason... Suffering is an ugly thing... Suffering is the result of Sin... When we are taken up to Christ... because He suffered for us... Our suffering will end... If we accept what He did for us...

John 9:2 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+9:2&version=31) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+9&version=31)
The disciples asked Jesus, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born with cancer?" 3"Neither (because)this man or his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.

Romans 5:3 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Romans+5:3&version=31) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Romans+5&version=31) we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.


I got a question for you OGB... is it more mercyful to kill a child on its first day... or to let that child be born and suffer through the rigors of life? I have not had to deal with cancer... but it seems life is struggle enough... Somedays it feels great... and somedays we suffer... Such is the life in midst of a world affected by sin...

[Orgnizdlbr]

I got a question for you OGB... is it more mercyful to kill a child on its first day... or to let that child be born and suffer through the rigors of life?



I'll answer yours after ya answer mine!

[dirtdobber]

the only other things I will say are a few words or ?s. we all can and do interpet the BIBLE differently thi is why there are so many religions. answer this one for thy self brother how many times has the BIBLE been rewritten.I know of a # it will take you some time but if you do this you will find that each time it was rewritten it was to fit the lifestyle so to speak of that day and time or for whom it was being rewritten for. :)

[CenterPointEX]

The mantra that "we can not trust the Bible translations we have" is a pretext of the DaVincie Code... It is a mantra first set forth in Genisis chapter three by SAtan... Satan told Eve..., "Yes, that is what Gods Word says... but we all can and do inturpret the Bible... let me tell you my inturpretation of Gods Word... God won't really impose the death penalty for breaking his laws... God is good so he can not do such a thing... Let me tell you what God really meant when he said that..." Genesis 3:1 (http://bibledev.azaz.com/bibleresources/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Genesis+3:1&version=51) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibledev.azaz.com/bibleresources/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Genesis+3&version=51)

.....I reckon you have heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls Dirtdobber?... When they were discovered, they predated the oldest manuscripts we had by one thousand years... In the Dead Sea Scrolls was the complete book of Isaiah... Nothing had changed... in the thousand year span... the book of Isaiah remained the same... We have more manuscript evidence for the Bible than we do for any other historical book of antiquity... Yes, the Bible has been translated into different languages... We have the Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew manuscripts from which they were translated... We have manuscripts such as the Dead Sea Scrools that ratify the manuscripts from which our current Bible has been translated...

.... ... . The Bible has the same message from Genisis to Revelation... If you use Bible to inturpret Bible... you can not err... Yes, one can lift stuff out of context and make it say something it does not... But as soon as you do that, it will disagree with the whole of the Bible... and thus you know you have erred in your inturpretation.

... ... Even when folks have tried to take the Bible and Edit out the gospel... they have not been sucessful... The New World Translation used by the Jehovahs Wittnesses is a prime example... The first order of bussiness for any cult is to de-God Jesus Christ... Once they have taken away the diety of Jesus, the rest of scripture falls like dominos. But anyone who knows scripture can take the New World Translation and show a Wittness the truth about Jesus... They tried to put forth an edited translation to support their truth and failed... They blurred any text they could find flat out said Jesus is God... But the problem is that they only did this to the New Testiment... The whole Bible from Genisis to Rev. makes this claim... Quotes describing Jesus in the New Testiment were lifted from the pages of the Old Testiment... Those quotes in the old Testiment were describing Jehova God... It is immpossible to edit out all the passages that proclaim the Messiah God... that; Any ex Wittness will tell you, is why they left, because someone showed them the discrepancies between their Bible and the Watchtower teachings...

... ... In Genisis Chapter three Satans first order of bussiness was casting doubt on Gods Word... Satan just changed one word in his disertation to Eve.. "Why did God say you could not eat the fruit of any tree in the garden?" When Eve corrected him, he replied, "Yes that is what God said, but let me tell you what he really meant." If I could paraphrase that for you... Satan told Eve, "Your translation and inturpretation are bad... let me tell you the real truth." Eve bought it hook line and sinker...

And to the subject at hand, The Davinci Code's first order of bussiness is to cast doubt on and then redefine Gods Word... That is the pretext upon which the Da Vinci Code is laid...

Folks will leap to take this lie hook line and sinker... Why? For the same reason Eve did... Satan told Eve, if you partake of the KNowledge of good and evil... your eyes will be opened and you will be like God... You will be your own God... That is Satans desire... and that is an instinctive desire in us... you will see this manifested in even a two year old in vain selfish conciet... Sin imparted in us from Adam and Eve... at conception...

The Bible I pack around is a parallel Bible that sports four translatons side by side... While the words are a litte different here and there... they all say the same thing... Anyone who says we can not trust our Bibles because our translations are bad, or comes up with Whacko inturpretations that disagree with the rest of Scripture... is not a student of the Bible...

Spanish,....................El Rio Grande
transliterated it is,.......the River Big...
Translated it is,...........the Big River...
Paraphrased it is,..........a large flowing body of water.

Differant words... Differant order... differant languages... same meaning...
Jesus de Christo, Jesus Christ...
Jehova, God...
Different languages same meaning...

[dirtdobber]

:) so back to one of my posts because EVE listened to DIABLOS (the devil) horse manure we to this present day are suffering because of her ignorance. so the illnesses that we suffer these days are because of her this is what you re saying
children born retarded or crippled, cancer is GODS doings I just cant find it in me to believe this.I can go on now and say that because what you have said we are born with sins that abortion should be accepted? if your WIFE or DAUGHTER was raped and ended up pregnant that should give birth and suffer the memory of what had happened to them while raising this child.before you go to preaching about how you feel and what you would do you best talk to them you are not the one having to carry that child inside you knowing and reliving that time.so think long and hard about your answer sir (remember the ten commandments) :)

[CenterPointEX]

Believe it or not... Just as God allows death...Just as God allows dirtdober to get away with breaking the Ten Commandments.... God allows cancer that we might turn to Him... If there were not consequences to breaking Gods Law/sinning then God would not be God... because God would not be good... If your twenty six year old son gets his self in trouble with credit cards.... Do you bail him out... or do you let him learn? Life on earth is a time of decision for us... Do we desire to do it Gods way... which brings abundant life?... or do we want to do it our own way... which brings death... a dieing world... thorns... cancer... suffering... etc.?
My question was more of an abstract nature....Why would a Loving God allow such things as Cancer? For the sake of space I left out part of the following... but if you read the full context, you will find I just lifted out the Points...
Isaiah 30

...1"Destruction is certain for my rebellious children," says the LORD. "You make plans that are contrary to my will.... 5it will all turn out to your shame. 9For these people are stubborn rebels who refuse to pay any attention to the LORD's instructions. 10They tell the prophets, "Shut up! ..." They say, "Don't tell us the truth. Tell us nice things. Tell us lies. ...12This is the reply of the Holy One of Israel: "Because you despise what I tell you and trust instead in oppression and lies,... 13calamity will come upon you suddenly. It will be like a bulging wall that bursts and falls (CANCER or any other malady you want to insert) . In an instant it will collapse and come crashing down. 20Though the Lord gave you adversity for food and affliction for drink, he will still be with you to teach you.

Sick cancer cell walls burst and crumble... in fact this is the nature of death... the cell walls burst and crumble...

This passage goes on to say if we turn to God and trust in HIm, he will deliever us from our suffering... But... we will have to wait on His good time...

My Point on Uncle Richard is that his suffering is of his own doing... Yet he blames God... Same as us who suffer in this world... a bastion of Sin... our sin manifests that which ails us... namely "Death"... The bigger question than cancer is "Why does God allow death? ...Same reason the Supreme Court does I reckon...

[CenterPointEX]

I did not say that Cancer is Gods doing Dirtdobber... I said God allows cancer... just as God allows death...
:) so back to one of my posts because EVE listened to DIABLOS (the devil) horse manure we to this present day are suffering because of her ignorance. so the illnesses that we suffer these days are because of her this is what you re saying
children born retarded or crippled, cancer is GODS doings I just cant find it in me to believe this.I can go on now and say that because what you have said we are born with sins that abortion should be accepted? if your WIFE or DAUGHTER was raped and ended up pregnant that should give birth and suffer the memory of what had happened to them while raising this child.before you go to preaching about how you feel and what you would do you best talk to them you are not the one having to carry that child inside you knowing and reliving that time.so think long and hard about your answer sir (remember the ten commandments) :) Have you ever talked Dirtdobber, to a woman who followed thru with the birth of a child that was concieved in violence? Were you to do that, you will be hard pressed to find one of these Mothers who regreted her decision... They love these children... More often than not, the only regret they have, is having considered aborting thier child.... But, Dirtdobber, ... Those who did abort their children all have deep emotional scars, having added the murder of their child on top of the memory of the violent act done to them... You speak without knowledge Dirtdobber... The knowledge or truth from which you speak, comes from no place other than your heart... and your heart Dirtdobber, as is mine, is that of a man born in bondage to sin...
........ and so your guilt hunts you... so you run... hide... or stick your head in the sand... blunt your senses with substances that you would not be aware of its presence... but to no avail... it always finds you in the dark of the night... This my friend is the essence of Hell... For if you die in your flight... hiding in the Garden that God might not find you... He will turn off the Light and leave you there... because that is what you desire... and there you will sit for eternity... with no place to run... no place to hide... just you and the monster, that is your guilt... for ever... and ever...

But, Dirtdobber... Gods only Son came to this earth... being equal with God... and laid down His mighty power and glory... To serve us... Being with outsin... He suffered and died... not for any guilt of His own... but for Dirtdobbers and mine... and if Dirtdobber, you accept this sacrifice He made for you... Then all of your Sin died with Him... And as He was raised again to life... if you have opened the door to let Him dwell in you... then you also are raised in Him to a new life... that when you lay down the tent you currently dwell in... you will be ushered into the presence of God... Paradise... On that DAy... Everything that you know to be good about Life... will pale in comparison... So, I implore you Dirtdobber... and all those who walk this path... do not tary... for That Day... is only one breath away.

[dirtdobber]

your full of bull to say I speak without knowledge this is some more of your hypacrittocal ravings because yoy believe in your convictions so strongly that it seems you are brain washed within your own believes.there are more than one religions one has the right to believe in what did you do go to church today and pose the ? to your preacher b-4 answering how about you talk to someone who is living within the realms of which you so calmly speak of surely its not you and your hoopla.I for one believe in our LORD JESUS CHRIST AND I ASSURE YOU BROTHER MY BELIEVE IS FOR EVER STRONG.you on the other hand had to be one of those that were not raised with the LORD in your heart from the day one but one that found him late in life what is your answer now.I was raised to belive in his name at an early age and still to this day believe so quit being a hypacrit!!!!! :)

[CenterPointEX]

I am curious Dirtdobber...
1. Do you believe that the Bible is true and inerrant?

or

1A. Do you belive the Bible is part truth and part myth/made up stories?

You claim the Bible has been rewritten... 1B. In any of these rewrites has any precept in it been changed?

You mentioned that there are many religions. 2. Do you belive that Christianity is the only true Religion or 2A. are there other religions beside Christianity that are also true?

2B. Do you believe that the only way to Heaven is by accepting Jesus Christs sacrifice for our sins?

or 2C. Do you believe that there are other ways and other names by which we can get to heaven?

3. Do you believe that God always existed, or 3B. Do you believe God was a product of evolution?

4. Do you believe that abortion is wrong, or 4A. Do you believe like I do, based on the Bible that Abortion is murder?

5. Do you believe that the Bible tells us to go and tell all people about the message of the Bible... That We are sinners in need of a Savior... That the pelalty for Sin is death... That all have sinned, and That Jesus Christ, Gods only Son came from God and took on the form of man... and in the form was crucified, died and was burried... and that on the third day he rose from the dead and accended to the Father... and that some day he will return to judge both the living and the dead? Do you Believe this Dirtdobber... Cause if you don't... then you ain't a Christian...


. we all can and do interpet the BIBLE differently this is why there are so many religions...you will find that each time it was rewritten, it was to fit the lifestyle so to speak of that day...:)
The Davinci code claims that the Bible is translation of a translation of a translation...?
The New Testiment was written in Greek... We have over five thousand seven hundred Greek manuscripts that are copies dated between 93A.D. and 350 A.D. ...the earliest less than 35 years removed the origionals... If we had a lot of copies that disagreed with each other, that would be a problem... but suprise, suprise... The Greek text is the same in all of the copies... Some of the copeis left out a line here or there... but what is left out does not change the essence of the message...We still have folks who speak greek... We don't need a translation of the origionals... All we have to do is learn greek at local community college and walla... you are reading the copies of the origionals... By contrast... we have three copies of Plato dated 1200 years removed from the origional...

:) cp I mean no disrespect but sometimes you should leave your religious believes to your self and not dispose them on others unless asked ... Luke 19:40 (http://bibledev.azaz.com/bibleresources/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Luke+19:40&version=31) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibledev.azaz.com/bibleresources/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Luke+19&version=31)39Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, "Tell your disciples to keep their religious beliefs to themselves and not dispose them on others unless asked" 40"I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."

I have had my share of well call them whores but that gives no justice o.k. !

C.P. a couple ? for you god created ADAM & EVE tell me where we all descended from that point. One more if GOD created us who created GOD & please dont give me the same old song & dance most BIBLE THUMPERS DO :D

[dirtdobber]

YOU BET YOUR EVER LOVING ARSE THAT I BELIEVE IN THE WORDS OF THE LORD.#2 yes my daughter just did a report to school on this subject and she found that it as I said b-4 being you dont listen that it was changed to fit there lifestyles of that era.#3 the way to HEAVEN is within us all to get there is up to the individual.#4 yes but 1 ? how do you know that he always has? #5 what makes you so correct and everyone else wrong.and yes abortion is wrong.but ye will be JUDGED for yor own sins. #6 so you have seen and read the first BIBLE in GREEK? so the way it sounds you must be a johovas wittness. :D

[Orgnizdlbr]

God did not give Job a reason for his suffering except that because of it, Gods work would be displayed in his life... Babies are afflicted with Cancer for the same reason... Suffering is an ugly thing... Suffering is the result of Sin... When we are taken up to Christ... because He suffered for us... Our suffering will end... If we accept what He did for us...




...That in the womb, they are already humans/sinners... God knows how they will choose... So now the question becomes...If God knows they will chose not to trust in Him... why does He even let them live? And as far as that goes... If he knows all will Sin... and the penalty for Sin according to his own law is death... Why does He let anybody live?


You have some balls even remotely hinting that any post of mine was of an oxymoronic vane after you post things like the above. The fact of the matter sir is that you have no idea why babies are afflicted with cancer or any other desease for that matter.

[CenterPointEX]

The Davinci code claims that the Bible is translation of a translation of a translation...?
The New Testiment was written in Greek... We have over five thousand seven hundred Greek manuscripts that are copies dated between 93A.D. and 350 A.D. ...the earliest less than 35 years removed the origionals... If we had a lot of copies that disagreed with each other, that would be a problem... but suprise, suprise... The Greek text is the same in all of the copies... Some of the copeis left out a line here or there... but what is left out does not change the essence of the message...We still have folks who speak greek... We don't need a translation of the origionals... All we have to do is learn greek at local community college and walla... you are reading the copies of the origionals... By contrast... we have three copies of Plato dated 1200 years removed from the origional...
Quote:


So you have seen and read the first BIBLE in GREEK? The way it sounds you must be a johovas wittness. :D The New Testiment portion of the Bible is a collection manuscripts Dirtdobber. These manuscripts are single letters written by the Apostles and Disciples of Jesus. I do not Know Greek... but that does not change the fact that we have the manuscripts I mentioned above and that the translations we have were translated from those manuscripts... Written in Greek... Copies of the origionals. Some dated with in thirty five years of the origionals... These are more reliable... because we have so many do early... ,more than any other writings of ancient History... To which my referance to the manuscripts of Plato is an example...

The Jehovas Wittness Translation was done by a group of men, mainly one who did not know Greek or Hebrew... Like I said before... This group tried and failed to erase the Deity of Jesus Christ in its pages... All Jehovahs Wittnesses who have converted; including the son of the main translator, have done so because they were shown the discrepancies between their New World Translation and the teachings of the Watch Tower... I am not a Jehovas Wittness... But I do teach any of them that come around about the nature of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as proclaimed in The New World Translation...




YOU BET YOUR EVER LOVING ARSE THAT I BELIEVE IN THE WORDS OF THE LORD.#2 yes my daughter just did a report to school on this subject and she found that it as I said b-4 being you dont listen that it was changed to fit there lifestyles of that era. Give me an example of what you are talking about... What was changed? Like I said before The Bible has been translated into different languages... That would include translations into Modern Day English as opposed to the Old World English... But these translations were not translated from the Old English to the new... But rather the Greek Texts were used in the translation process.
The way to HEAVEN is within us all...to get there is up to the individual That statement says absolutely nothing about the way to heaven. It is open ended and leaves open the possibility that the paths of Hinduism, Islam, or Mormanism, etc. are legitimate paths to Heaven...

6. Is It your belief that Jesus Christ is not the only Way? and that these other paths are legitimate paths to God?.... This is a Yes or No question.

Let me see If I can make it a little clearer...
7. Do you Believe that the only way to Heaven is by Trusting in Jesus Christ?, accepting His sacrifice of Himself for our Sins on the Cross? This is a Yes or No question...


How do you know that God has always existed? I know that Space has always existed... It is not possible that Space has not always existed... Since there are things that have always existed... I can conclude that God must have always existed... It is not possible that He has not...
Yes abortion is wrong.but ye will be JUDGED for yor own sins. I understand that we will be judged for our own Sin... We will be found guilty... but we will be pardoned because Jesus has already paid the penalty for our Sin...
Murder is wrong just like Abortion is wrong... We should not allow abortion just like we should not allow murder... Abortion is murder... Murder is the taking of an innocent life. We should not allow it... Just like it would be wrong to kill a five year old child, because he was concieved in Rape... So it is wrong to kill a child in the womb for the same reason...


You have some balls even remotely hinting that any post of mine was of an oxymoronic vein after you post things like the above. The fact of the matter sir is that you have no idea why babies are afflicted with cancer or any other desease for that matter. Your statement speaks for itself...
Explain to me how my two statements are opposed to each other... making them oxymoronic? Which of the two statements do you disagree with...


God did not give Job a reason for his suffering except that because of it, Gods work would be displayed in his life... Babies are afflicted with Cancer for the same reason... Suffering is an ugly thing... Suffering is the result of Sin... When we are taken up to Christ... because He suffered for us... Our suffering will end... If we accept what He did for us...
...
That in the womb, they are already humans/sinners... God knows how they will choose... So now the question becomes...If God knows they will chose not to trust in Him... why does He even let them live? And as far as that goes... If he knows all will Sin... and the penalty for Sin according to his own law is death... Why does He let anybody live?

....The people asked Jesus why folks were born with afflictions...They wanted to know if it was a result of the Sins of the Parents, or the rusult of the Sins of the Child... Jesus answered "Neither... It happened so that the work of God might be displayed in thier lives"... The same reason that Job recieved...The same question Dirtdobber asked... This is the only answer the Bible gives us to this question...
John 9:2 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+9:2&version=31) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+9&version=31)
The disciples asked Jesus, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born with cancer?" 3"Neither (because)this man or his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.

[Orgnizdlbr]

Your statement speaks for itself...
Explain to me how my two statements are opposed to each other... making them oxymoronic? Which of the two statements do you disagree with...



Jesus did nit give Job a reason for suffering....thats why babies are afflicted with cancer.....

Did you not state that God knows prior to birth whether the baby would be a sinner?

Jesus made the blind man see, at least in my version of the Bible, what does that mean to you?

[CenterPointEX]

This is a true statement... Children are afflicted with cancer for the same reason Job was afflicted... for the same reason that the Blind man was afflicted...The Point I was making in the Blind Man story is; read it if you dare, John 9:2 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+9:2&version=31) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+9&version=31) ... the reason that the Blind man was born with this affliction in the first place... and the answer to that is the only answer the Bible gives us in relation to bad things happening to good people... Including Gods Son who suffered more that anyone else ever will in that Jesus could have at any Point stopped the suffering... Suffering is the affect Sin has had on this World... God gave us free will... in giving us free will, God allowed us sin... if He had not allowed sin... we would be robots... and we would not be a creation in the image of God...
... ...If we so desire... now that we have had a taste of Sin... God will deliver us from it... In order for that to be done... We must submit our will to God... That which was first given to us by Him... But if we so desire...We can keep our self atotomy... apart from body of God... Atotomus parts are rendered useless... But our fate would not be that of atotomus parts... because they have an end... We... because we are created in the image of God... do not...

You caught me... I like a man who don't trust another mans dissertation but rather searches the Scriptures to see if it is true...For the sake of this dissertation I subbed "Cancer" for "Blind" but any malady will suffice. The kind of malady or afliction is not the Point... except in there are a lot of puns... intended ... in the Bible... The Blindness can stand alone... or one can go deeper in the story and toy with the idea of Spiritual Blindness... I always put subbed words in italics... Some times when I quote folks in this forum... I correct mispelled or misused words in Italics... Such as "in this vane"... the word "Vein" should have been used.

Did you not state that God knows prior to birth whether the baby would be a sinner?
Psalm 51:5 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Psalm+51:5&version=31) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Psalm+51&version=31) click blue Psalm to read it if you dare... This site has about a dozen translations of the Bible... While the words are a bit differant...they all mean the same thing...
Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Psalm 58:3
Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.

[dirtdobber]

I guess my biggest ? to you monsignor is that in the end if we all believe in the same GOD not false GODS the way it looks to probably not just myself but to others that really dont want to tell you where to get off is. who appointed you to tell me that I am without knowledge and belief in the LORD JESUS CHRIST I think you are a born again christian that is very closed minded because you want everyone to believe the way you do no ?s asked! you know if we all were the same (like robots)this world would be a very boring place to live. Im very sorry for you that you must be so ingulffed in one way religious beliefs that for you the light at the end of your tunnel SIR must be dim!!!! :eek:

[dirtdobber]

kinda sounds to me that you sir are just about to show your true self. dont back slide it might just hurt a little.to answer your ? yes i am a true believer in the words of the LORD. but when born again so called christians start running off at the mouth about there new found lives it bothers people.so would you say that when a baby rapist goes to prison and finds the LORD he should be set free with a clean slate? an eye for an eye! one more our young men are fighting a war overseas so its kill or be killed I suppose you think that is wrong to.so crawl back in your cave and go back to hybernating!! if we were attacked on our own soil your backyard what would you do throw the good book at them or stand up and fight back. yes JESUS is the only way but as I said you believe your BIBLE and I will believe mine. :rolleyes:

[CenterPointEX]

Origionaly posted by dirtdobber: ...when born again so called christians start running off at the mouth about their new found lives it bothers people.
Acts 7:54 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Acts+7:54&version=31) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Acts+7&version=31) <--- click whole chapter link to read Acts
[ The Stoning of Stephen ] When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him...

8:4Those who had been scattered preached the word wherever they went.

14:2Those who refused to believe stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers. 3So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, ... there was a plot among the leaders, to mistreat them and stone them. 6But they found out about it and fled... 7... they continued to preach the good news.

20They brought them before the magistrates and said, "These men are Jewish lineman, and are running off at the mouth about their new found lives in Jesus... throwing our forum into an uproar 21by advocating customs unlawful for us Americans to accept or practice." 22The crowd joined in the attack against Paul, Silas, and CenterPointEX and the magistrates ordered them to be flogged,...

2As his custom was, Paul went into the forum, and on three ...days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3explaining and proving that the Christ had to suffer and rise from the dead. "This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Christ,...

17:5But they were jealous; so they rounded up some bad characters from the marketplace, formed a mob and started a riot in the forum... they dragged CenterPointEX and some other brothers before the forum officials, shouting: "These men have caused trouble all over the world have now come here to our forum to run off their mouths about their new found lives,...32When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, "We want to hear you again on this subject."



I'll say it bothers people... for running off at the mouth about their new found lives, Paul was beaten kicked and choked and thrown in Prison...Stephen was stonned... John the Babtist got his head chopped off... Peter got crucified upside down... In mass folks were fed to the lions... and today in places like Iraq, Iran, Afganastan, China, ... the list goes on and on... folks are persacuted and killed... For running off at the mouth about their new found lives... and Yes boys and girls... even here on Powelineman.com folks are admonished for running off at the mouth about their new found lives...(it bothers folks don't ya know)
And for no other crime but telling the truth Jesus... the only innocent man that ever walked the earth... Was Beaten and Crucified...


It is good that you believe the Bible dirtdobber... It gives us a starting Point for our discussion...We read the same Bible Sir... If you are willing we can discuss specific passages that are the proof texts of what I say... We can use any translation you like... they all say the same thing... I don't think you would care to do that though... I might be wrong...

The Bible commands us to go and tell otherz about our new found lives... Come on OGB...Help me out... I know you have read the Bible...I know you to know what it says... It may be you don't believe we have a good translation of it... but you do know what the translation we have says..

[Orgnizdlbr]

I'll be away for a long weekend, coming back tuesday, looking forward to checking this thread.....

[CenterPointEX]

Dirtdobber, I will ask again...

7. Do you Believe that the only way to Heaven is by Trusting in Jesus Christ?, accepting His sacrifice of Himself for our Sins on the Cross?

This is a Yes or No question...

You said you believe the Bible...

The Bible makes the claim that there is no other way to Heaven except thru faith in Jesus Christ... No other way. The Bible precludes Allah, Bramah, Buddah, or any other of mans gods from being of any substance...

Either you Believe what the Bible says, or you don't...

If you believe the Bible... Jesus is the ONLY WAY.

If you don't believe the gospel... You are not a Christian...

I don't think you will answer this question... because if you were to answer it truthfully... We would all know what you are... You wouldn't be able to pretend anymore...


SwampRat also thinks that there are other ways to Heaven... or maybe ther is no such thing... He somehow believes that all the religions worship the same God... Even though most of the religions claim this is not so...
Do you think I am Wrong for saying that Jesus is the only way?


I don't SOMETIMES believe all religions worship the same God. I believe that ALL religions worship the Same God.
THAT's the Guy I believe in. The "One"... All "religions" are talkin about the same Guy. They just all got their own take, rules and "stories" about him....So....What "Flock" do you belong to CP? Bein a "Christian", ya should be Proud of the Flock you're a member of, spoutin the "Word" as you do. I said somehow, not sometimes...What exactly do you know about your god Swamp?... You are all by yourself in what you believe about him... Almost as if you are the only one with the truth... There is no religion out there that makes the claim that all religions worship the same god... except maybe the Masons...

Swamp, you can not belive in the Christian God and make your claims, because He in the Words He has given us in the Bible, says that Jesus is the only way... the are no other names by which a man can be saved other than Gods only son Jesus. It is not me Swamp... The Bible makes this claim. Click on John to read verse or whole chapter to read whole chapter...
John 14:6 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+14:6&version=31) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+14&version=31)
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

....Swamp, I am a Christian... I have discussed my flock at length in earlier threads... which you posted to.
The precepts I set forth fall in the pail of Orthodoxy, they are the essentials for salvation... They are believed by all Christians, Babtist, Lutherans, Presbtarians, and Yes... OGB... Catholics...
...all Christians believe the basic principles I have have set forth... Give me one single specific principle I have set forth that all Christians do not believe... I repeat myself... you have a religion Swamp... stuff you believe by faith... for instance... Your source from which you got the belief that all religions worship the same God?... You don't have a source... You made that up... and you believe it by faith.
The following Statement is nonsense Swamp, you have no evidence to back up that statement

Originally posted by SwampRat: THAT's the Guy I believe in. The "One". All "religions" are talkin about the same Guy. They just all got their own take, rules and "stories" about him. ...it is MAN that has Made God "Different" to each religion.


Swamp also has made a god... and not out of whole cloth... Know what SWamp?... you are almost right... All religions except one worship the same entity... The AntiChrist... El Diablo himself... The Father of lies... Prince of the power of the Earth... Genesis 3:4 (http://bibledev.azaz.com/bibleresources/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Genesis+3:4&version=31) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibledev.azaz.com/bibleresources/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Genesis+3&version=31) <=== Click link to read about it... Though it is evident in itself... I will define AntiCrist for you... Man, Men, or Entitys that are against Christ... I'm thinkin just maybe you, by definition, fit that catigory Swamp... You make the claim that you believe the Ten Commandments... these laws are written upon your heart... Since you believe them... then you must know that you break all of them regularly... and that the penalty for breaking them is death...

[dirtdobber]

I can help but tell you sir that your last post sounds like your looking for some help to stand your ground.I dont believe we are trying to throw you to the wolves but trying to get you to understand that what ever religion it is that you believe in aint just the only one. we as humans that GOD made have the ability to see and believe in what we will. some just try to convice others that there way of believing is the only way like you!! also noted you side steped my last few ?s to hard for your sole to answer you might show your true colors? AS LONG AS WE ALL BELIEVE IN THE SAME GOD OUR SAVIOR WHERE IS YOUR PROBLEM? :p and AS for ? #7 as you stated yourself the only way is to have FAITH in the LORD!

[CenterPointEX]

I believe... we are trying to trying to get you to understand that what ever religion it is that you believe in, it ain't the only one...

...AS LONG AS WE ALL BELIEVE IN THE SAME GOD, OUR SAVIOR, WHERE IS YOUR PROBLEM?...:p

...the only way is to have FAITH in the LORD! All Christians that fall in the pail of orthodoxy; Dirtdobber, believe the things I am telling you.. This includes Babtists, Catholics, Lutherans, etc. It seems to me, that you are agreeing with me dirtdobber, that the only way to heaven is thru faith in Jesus Christ... But I am not sure... If this is true, then you disagree with Swamp, because you believe there is only one way... Jesus Christ...

... The reason I push this question, is because as you have seen... your buddy Swamp here does not believe that the only way to Heaven is thru Jesus Christ.

From what I can gather, Swamp believes that all the following religions... Hindu, Buddist, Islamic, Morman, etc. all call the same person god... and no matter which one of these religions you belong to... you are ok.

Swamp would have us believe that Budda is our Lord and our Savior, just as Allah is our Lord and Savior... Swamp would have you believe that the only differance between them is, that the two cultures have the same god but differant stories about him...


...AS LONG AS WE ALL BELIEVE IN THE SAME GOD, OUR SAVIOR, WHERE IS YOUR PROBLEM?...:p Dirtdobber, Since you did not tell us who your god is in this statement, this statement could be true for all of Swamps gods, who he claims are really not differant gods but one,

[CenterPointEX]

I have spoke about my flock in earlier threads Swamp... you posted in reply to me in those threads...

I am curious Swamp, have you read the Da Vinci Code? if so, do you agree with Dan Browns take?

And by the Way Swamp, what flock are you with? You have talked about what you were raised etc. but what flock are you with now?
Will you be flying back to Canada with them this winter?
....No really Swamp, you say you believe in the "Ten Commandments". Do you really believe in the commandment, "Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy"? or do you just believe in some of the commandments? Swamp, are you like you accused me of being, an Independant? Do you just make up your own stuff as you go along? I have well documented sources as evidence for what I am saying... I will discuss the evidenxce with you if you got the balls to do so... Your beliefs on the other hand have no evidence to back them up... You have no sources of information... Just like you have no memory.

Just ignorin me CP, makes ya look like just what ya are...I think I GET why you won't say what "flock" you're associated with! You're your OWN "Christian", like I'm my own believer in God. I believe in God... You believe in jesus, otherwise you can't get to God."

Here is a few links to earlier threads where my flock is revealed Swamp... just in case you forgot..
http://www.powerlineman.com/lforum/showthread.php?p=640&highlight=LCMS#post640

http://www.powerlineman.com/lforum/showthread.php?p=3844&highlight=lutheran#post3844 (http://www.powerlineman.com/lforum/search.php?searchid=77342)

I'm thinkin I'm not the one dodging questions Swamp... but who am I to judge...
l
V
(http://www.powerlineman.com/lforum/search.php?searchid=77342)

[CenterPointEX]

1.The God I believe in, don't need "Intermediateries". That's one thing the Catholics did teach. I can Talk to GOD.
"Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...."

2. Christ ain't God, but in Christianity....he's spoken more highly of than god.
Count the jesus bumper stickers. I don't like that. AND...don't believe God put his kid out there as his spokesman... Christ was a great guy, and a prophet, but that's about it.

3. John the Baptist! Now THERE was a man. 3. Could you explain your comment about John the Babtist?

1. I think you are a little confused about what the Catholic church teaches. Maybe I am too, perhaps OGB could help us out? But I think they teach that there are inermediaries that you can talk to to get to the Father... Folks like Mary, Peter, Paul and other saints... I think they teach that a person can pray to these Saints.

2. I think also; correct me if I am wrong OGB, that the Catholic church teaches that Jesus is God?

[Orgnizdlbr]

3. Could you explain your comment about John the Babtist?

1. I think you are a little confused about what the Catholic church teaches. Maybe I am too, perhaps OGB could help us out? But I think they teach that there are inermediaries that you can talk to to get to the Father... Folks like Mary, Peter, Paul and other saints... I think they teach that a person can pray to these Saints.

2. I think also; correct me if I am wrong OGB, that the Catholic church teaches that Jesus is God?



Unless I misunderstand the question, I believe CP is correct. Although I have never heard of praying to St. paul.

I got sidetracked, I hate to come back and edit but, yes, Catholic doctrine teaches that Christ is GOD.

As I understand it, one of the reasons Martin Luther had a problem with Catholisism was the doctrine and teaching that one could petition a Saint through prayer.....a valid point which IMHO is lost on Catholic teaching.

I believe Swamps point is that the God of Abraham is the same God worshiped by Christians.

There are many valid points to be made and pondered about the Supreme Being. Take the American Indian for instance, american Indians are, by nature, a very spiritual people. Prior to the white man stealing the Indians land and massacering them in the name of God, how would the native americans become aware of the existance of Christ? If they were to perish before they heard the "word" would they be eternally damned? I know how the Catholic Church rationalizes this, how about the Lutherans CP? How would anative American get into the kingdom of god if he was never exposed to the word?

[CenterPointEX]

Big John was a man of conviction... He got his head handed to him for telling the wrong guy that the Bible was truth and that this truth was against some of the things the fella was doing. It was actually the girlfriend of this fella who asked for Johns head. She was afraid Big John would convince this fella of this truth and that subsequently she would get cut off from her Sugar Daddys honey pile.

Big John had a moment of doubt about who Jesus was though. John was in prison with a death sentence hovering over his head,... He sent word to Jesus and asked, "Are you God's Son or ain't ya?" "Cause, if you are Gods Son, why are you letting me rot in prison, when the only thing I done wrong was preach about you?"

Jesus sent word back, "Take a chill pill Big John! It ain't no secret what has been happening around here, I have healed the sick, lame, and blind... I have made some breathless folks start breathing again. This should be proof enough for you that my power is of God the Father. Some folks who have seen these thing and some who hear of them will not believe,... you John have seen and heard. Do not worry about your current situation Big John, for soon you will be with me in my Fathers house."

[CenterPointEX]

1. I believe Swamps point is that the God of Abraham is the same God worshiped by Christians.

2. How would a native American get into the kingdom of god if he was never exposed to the word?2. Romans chapter two speaks to this, though Gods method is not quite clear on salvation for those who have not heard. Also in Romans chapter two it says "each man will be judged and receive just compensation for according to what he has done." From that and other scriptures it seems that there are rewards in heaven and hell for our actions... Thus the hell of a Hitler will be differant than that of an Indian who minded his own bussiness but never put his trust in God.

1. It seems to me that Swamp believes this, but from what I read in his posts it also seems that he believes that the god of the Hindu, Buddist, Morman, etc. is one and the same as the God of Abraham, Issiac, and Jacob.

[dirtdobber]

I think I figured all this crap out. C.P. just keep dodging ?s and preaching your way is the only way we will all start believing that crap and eventually you will take your way and go away. thank GOD!!!! you dont seem to get it get off your high horse and take a good long look around brother it aint all what it seems. I asked you a direct ? and you ignored it what is this crap? 1 more time our soldiers are fighting to protect your right to speak your word and killing GODS children to do so answer the *****?in front of you dont side step with your religious crap but from the heart this time and some of us might just see your way of viewing things. yes the only way to HEAVEN is through GOD our savior!!!! :mad:

[Orgnizdlbr]

2. Romans chapter two speaks to this, though Gods method is not quite clear on salvation for those who have not heard. Also in Romans chapter two it says "each man will be judged and receive just compensation for according to what he has done." From that and other scriptures it seems that there are rewards in heaven and hell for our actions... Thus the hell of a Hitler will be differant than that of an Indian who minded his own bussiness but never put his trust in God.

1. It seems to me that Swamp believes this, but from what I read in his posts it also seems that he believes that the god of the Hindu, Buddist, Morman, etc. is one and the same as the God of Abraham, Issiac, and Jacob.

My question was directly related to a Native American who was here, on his own continent, having no knowlegde of the new or old testaments, would he be damned to hell? Would the natives who resided in, lets say Mexico, before Cortez the Killer massacred them, they never heard the word, would they be damned to hell? And what would befall Cortez who brought the word here and massacred in the name of God? Where or what would be his Fate? And remember CP, if and when you ponder the question I pose, judge not lest thee thyself be judged........

[dirtdobber]

o.g.b. lets just see how long it takes him to answer these small ?s first he will turn to his bible then maybe he will remember his post about how his religion is the only way to believe and then the light at the end of his tunnel will get very bright . its amazing what you can see when you open your eyes!!!

[dirtdobber]

seems C.P. got so blinded by the light he cant see to type a reply then again today is wednesday he might be at church must be a new thing that its all day sermons!! :) :) :) :)

[Orgnizdlbr]

seems C.P. got so blinded by the light he cant see to type a reply then again today is wednesday he might be at church must be a new thing that its all day sermons!! :) :) :) :)

CP will reply, make no mistake. CP has faith and conviction and an interpretation of scripture that he uses as a guide. Scripture tells CP that he must sew seeds, that is what he does. Understand my position DD, CP has the ability to raise my ire and make me "crazy." That is his way. CP and I disagree on many, many, things. Thats fine, we are just a bunch of lineman attempting discourse. We are exchanging information on a wide array of topics, not only religion and politics. It is not my intention to ridicule CP, understand that. I have my differences with him but ridicule aint my style. I was brought up as a kid to respect other peoples religion, I attempt to do that. It is not an easy thing to profess ones faith in a public forum, whether it be a lineman's forum on the internet or a street corner in the town square, anyone with the conviction to do that opens themselves up to enough of ridicule. I learned long ago that I have my own flaws and shortcommings, so I try not to ridicule anyone. I dont always succeed. I have no axe to grind with CP, only difference of opinion.

BTW, the discourse and exchange of info is a very good tool. I have learned things on this site that I was unaware of whether it had to do with linework or other matters, I have learned things here from guys like Swamp, Topgroove, BigClive, and yes CenterpointEx....if we keep an open mind we all could learn something from each other.

[CenterPointEX]

1 more time our soldiers are fighting to protect your right to speak your word and killing GODS children to do so answer the fucking question! Please forgive me... I have been working five twelves. I am working with some I.B.M. nerds on a project to install some equipment that induces a broadband signal on the Primary.
....Any how, I can only answer you question in the vein of the filter through which I process all things... You Dirtdobber, are no differant than I in this reguard.
Romans 8:28
.............."All things work to the good of those who know and love God and are called according ot his purpose."

God used Pharohs Sword as a judgement on Isreal... God is soveriegn in all He does. Is there a such thing as "just war", I think so. I think Americas war on HItler is a case in Point.

On the American Indian...

...God has written his law upon the hearts of men... Thus as Romans chapter one says... "all men are without excuse"...
.... No matter where in the world you are from... Vancoover, or the darkest of Africa... You know that raper/murder is wrong... inherently folks know this... thus if a native of darkest Africa comes to the Uninted States, and commits a Rape/Murder... He will be tried and most probably convicted, reguardless of whether or not he claims knowledge of the U.S. statutes against Rape/Murder. In the same way also, men know God and his laws, a man has a choice of accepting or rejecting these laws. By this choice he accepts or rejects God...

That being said, God commands to go out and tell all the world of the salvation available thru His Son Jesus Christ. And the World having heard will be accountable for their acceptance or rejection of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Thus Salvation was available to the American Indian, and is now available to the American thru the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Orgnizdlbr]

Thus Salvation was available to the American Indian

I am confused, are you saying that before the American Indian was made aware of the "word" he could still get to Heaven?

[dirtdobber]

now we seem to be on the same page. the only diffrence between you and I has got to be the fact I sir can still get to HEAVEN without rocking someone elses boat.and by the way i did not type answer the FUCKING ? that had to be you backsliding or powerlineman put words in my mouth. so to you the killing of others for the sake of our LORD JESUS CHRIST is o.k. as long as they believe in budah or what ever it is they believe in. if you are a true desciple of the bible why not stop this slaughter of GODS children. ORG. I respect what you are saying sir I agree but when a person tells you you are without knowledge I get a little sore.I to have learned from this forum and hope to continue. I meen no disrespect to C.Ps.conviction but dont down others just because they dont see things your way!

[CenterPointEX]

Dirtdobber, you claim scripture backs some of your positions... Some of those positions in no way shape or form have scriptural support, no matter how scripture is bent to make them conform... Thus I say you speak without knowledge... I had to make one of two assumptions... either you were speaking without knowledge of scripture, or you are a bald face liar... I don't think you to be a bald face liar... and therefor I offered to discuss specific Points in the light of the scriptural evidence, in the hope that you would have the oppertunity to understand the relative Biblical precepts, and based on knowledge of them, either accept the truths therin or reject them as bullshit.

[CenterPointEX]

I am confused, are you saying that before the American Indian was made aware of the "word" he could still get to Heaven? Yes..., The American Indian had Gods law written upon his heart, but the American; every one of them, chose to break these laws."The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven, against all the Godlessness wickedness of men who supress the truth by their wickedness. Since what may be known about God is plain to them, for God has made it plain to them, for since the creation of the world, Gods invisable qualities, His eternal power and Divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that all men are without excuse." How am I to understand this in reguard to the American Indian? All men are without excuse... If they committed a rape/murder, they are guilty... I am guilty of breaking Gods law... I deserve Gods just and eternal punishment... I understand that because I have submitted my self in faith to Jesus Christ, my sins died with Him... and I have been raised to a new life in Him... he took the penalty for my sin, but because He had no sin of his own, Hell had no hold on Him... He now prepares a place for all who live in him... Are there men who did not have the oppertunity to accept or reject salvation?

[CenterPointEX]

And what's this shit...from another thread you're postin in...."That being said, the Judeo/Christian God is one and the same..."You're a walking "hiporacy" CP.The Judeo/Christian God is one and the same. According to the Bible Swamp; the best selling, most read, most documented historical book in the world, the God of the Jews is reavealed in the personas of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. ...One God,... three Who's, one What. This is first revealed in the "Pentateuch". The Pentateuch is the first five books of the Jewish Bible, given to Moses with the Ten Commandments, of which Swamp only claims nine of at this juncture, by God. The first half of the Bible; the "Old Testiment", is the Jewish Bible. The Jewish/Christian Bible pedicts the comming of "Big John" "A voice crying in the wilderness", and it predicts the comming of Jesus the Messiah. The Pentateuch is the first five books of the Christian Bible. Christians believe in the same God the Jews do. But the Jews are still waiting for The Messiah/Jesus. The first Christians were Jewish. Jesus was and is a Jew.
Romans chapter one: "A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly,... no, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly, and cirumcsion is circumcision of the heart..." (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Romans+2&version=31)............Romans 2:28 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Romans+2:28&version=31) <--Click links to read Bible
This is the belief of all Christendom Swamp, The Judeo/Christian God is one and the same, and all other gods; Allah, Buddah, etc. are false gods. The Jews will not disagree on this Point.

[dirtdobber]

I have excepted the BIBLE as it is written. I sir just think that my beliefs should not be pushed upon others wether I be CATHOLIC,LUTHERAN,or BAPTIST.as long as we all believe in the same LORD JESUS CHRIST then I dont have an argument with any one of GODS children. but I will allow them to believe the way they wish if the johovas wittness cone to my home I will answer the door nude and with a cold beer in my hand. not that I have a problem with them but when Im at home on my day off dont come knocking on my door unless you are giving away cash!!! :)

[CenterPointEX]

I have excepted the BIBLE as it is written. I don't doubt this for one second Dirtdobber,... your posts are wise beyond your understanding... you chose your verbs wisely...

I am interested in your opinion, in your opinion, What is the main message of the Bible as you understand it?

[dirtdobber]

for me the BIBLE is a book on how one should live a clean and wholsome life without sin. we as GODS children have to except what we do according to scripture you will answer for your own sins. not someone elses so for me I try to teach my children to be proud of who they are and dont worry about what someone else thinks(keep the grass mowed in your own backyard b-4 you worry about someone elses). amend to first sentence again the only way to HEAVEN is through our LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST. so for me C.P. I guess Id have to say that when you start posting what you believe is the only way to HEAVEN it underminds everyone elses right to believe what they will to get where the wish to go. if someone askes me what I believe and wish for me to preach to them then I will do so but not push my views upon them! :)

[dirtdobber]

you know maybe some good will come to this post we will have to wait and see!! :)

[CenterPointEX]

...for me the BIBLE is a book on how one should live a clean and wholsome life without sin... the only way to HEAVEN is through our LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST.. I would have to say, when you start posting that what you believe, is the only way to HEAVEN, it undermines everyone elses right to believe what they will... From this post, It seems that you agree with me, that the only way to heaven is through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But you disagree with me, in that you also believe it is wrong to tell people that Jesus is the only Way, becuause telling people Jesus is the only Way undermines their right to believe what they will. Is this correct?

Dirtdobber, in response to my question about what you believed to be the main message of the Bible, you answered with two things...

"...for me the BIBLE is a book on how one should live a clean and wholsome life without sin..."

"the only way to HEAVEN is through our LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST"

Dirtdobber, which of these two do you feel is more important or rather, which of these two in your opinion is the main message of the Bible?

Throughout Biblical History, folks who have taken the message of the Bible to the street, have been persacuted... The Apostles, Peter, Paul and John,to mention just a few, were beaten and put in jail for preaching the truth on the street. They were jailed for saying that Jesus is the only way.

[CenterPointEX]

But...we all believe in the same "God man". We just differ in how we look at him. There's only one. Swamp, I don't understand this statement. It seems that you are saying that all religions, worship the same God? Is that correct?

Do the Muslims, Buddists, and Hindus worship the same God that the Christians do?

In your opinion Swamp, is the god of the Buddists the same one that the Christains worship?

[dirtdobber]

wouldnt both kinda be the same thing? no it is not wrong to tell people about your conviction if you find yourself in a position to do so. but to stop someone on the street and tell them that you think they are a piece of **** because they dont believe what you believe just aint wright. further more in this day and age you might just get your ass beat or shot. so keep preaching to a captive audience try to take your crap to the street you might just find I am right. :)

[CenterPointEX]

Dirtdobber, in response to my question about what you believed to be the main message of the Bible, you answered with two things... Dirtdobber, which of these two do you feel is more important or rather, which of these two in your opinion is the main message of the Bible?
....Either,.... :)So, then do you believe, that one would be correct in saying that this is the main message of the Bible?

"... the BIBLE is a book on how one should live a clean and wholsome life without sin..."

[dirtdobber]

in order to get to eternal life I would have to agree.

[CenterPointEX]

Yes... I would have to agree."... the BIBLE is a book on how one should live a clean and wholsome life without sin..."in order to get to eternal life...


So from this statement it seems you are telling me that, this is the main message of the Bible, "the way to get to eternal life is to live a clean and wholesome life without sin." Is this correct?...


Yes, like you get the picture. .......................................

[dirtdobber]

like you get the picture. you still choose not to answer certain ?s that have been asked of you is this your way of life or just you. o.k.#1 in your words not biblical is it just for our soldiers to be killing GODS children and answer without your typical BIBLE thumping attitude. you have asked me personal ?s Ive been kind enough to answer you do the same.

[CenterPointEX]

Swamp, I don't understand this statement. It seems that you are saying that all religions,Muslims, Buddists, and Hindus worship the same God? Is that correct?
DAMN...Did a friggin lightbulb just come on in your head?...YES. ...ONE God for ALL religions. ONE GOD Created ... Life on earth... THAT god is the SAME God ALL religions believe in. I don't believe in the "Jesus Incident". Swamp, I was just trying to ascertain your definition of "all religions". I thought maybe your definition of all religions might be limited to those that fall within the pail of orthodoxy. If that were the case then I would be in total agreement with you.

But I see Swamp, that you do believe in a Creator...

1. Swamp, do you believe that this Creator has given us a revelation of himself such as written word?..,

2. Do you maybe believe,
.................................... that the Creator that created us, made us, but has given us no revelation of himself, thus all men; because they have no revelation of God, just make up stories about him to suit their needs?

or
3. Do you Believe that this Creator made all men, and then gave different groups of men different stories about himself?

From what you are saying I gather it is one of these, if not,
..................Swamp, could you explain what it is you believe about how this Creator has or has not revealed himself to us?

[dirtdobber]

we are really seeing the real you you choose not to answer ?s that are asked of you maybe you are a scared christian answer what is asked of you in your own words not biblical!!! the one ? I posed on you now that its been so many posts ago some might not remember is this what your waiting for dont be scared if your conviction is as strong as you portait it to be.

[CenterPointEX]

we are really seeing the real you you choose not to answer ?s . Dirtdobber, Maybe you could refresh my memory... What question are you refering to? I answered your question on if or not there is such a thing as just war.



He gave the same type of "Message" to all his people. In different "tongues". Some of his "people" just expounded on it, and "added" their own "enhancements", so to speak. Swamp, what do you mean by, "he gave the same type message to all his people?" What kind of message was it, and how do you believe he did this? Did he give them written word?

SwampRat, Do you agree with Dirtdobber that the following is the main message of the Bible? and is this the message that you are sayin God gave to all his people?


So from this statement it seems you are telling me that, this is the main message of the Bible, "the way to get to eternal life is to live a clean and wholesome life without sin." Is this correct?...


Yes, like you get the picture.

[dirtdobber]

was to be answered of your own words not out of your lutheran BIBLE. do you believe that what our young men are doing to as you said GODS children(this bullshit war) do you personally think it to be fair and just? answer from your heart not what you believe the BIBLE has taught you. :mad:

[CenterPointEX]

Dirtdobber, you don't know what you ask of me... I seek to walk in the Mind of Christ... I live, eat, and breathe the Bible... The Word of God... I thirst for the Word as though I was stranded in the Arabian Dessart... I see all things thru the filter for the Word... and thus I loath who I am apart from it... That being said,... Just War?

.................. I believe there is such a thing as just war..
.............. I think there is a time and place for self defense...
................I think there is a time an place for turning the other cheek...
.... When Jesus got a belly full of what was happening inside his Fathers House... He unleashed righteous anger... God has used goverments; righteous or otherwise, to meat out justace.

This country has a three day supply of food... It is on the road twenty four seven. I drove a rig for a while delievering fruit; that was grown in California processed in Houston, from Houston to S. Carolina and I hauled processed chickens back... There were rigs lined up on one side of the dock with live chickens... It took about ten minutes for a chicken to make it from the live truck to my reefer rig..., but I digress...

Dirtdobber, a dozen well placed tactical nukes would shut off the oil supply from the middle east... We don't fuel those Diesel Rigs... We don't eat... In 48 hours or less, three million people in the city of Houston will be killing each other over a loaf of bread... We can not allow that...

Sadman Insane, whether or not he had made any process, was rattling his saber... making threats... willy nilly grabbing oil wells from smaller countries, Killing his own citizens with gas and burying them in mass graves... Sadman was pursuing a nuclear program and fully intended to use it as he saw fit... Damn the torpedos...
...........Put any kind of spin on it you want... but we are there to protect the oil supply... Just like the U.S. Navy is always there protecting the shipping lanes... The U.S. Navy can not and will not abandon the shipping lanes... They are no less important than the goverments that sit on top of Americas life blood... Oil... U.S. forces are there to stay... and the world will be a better place for it... It is not a matter of should people die in the course of defending the means of peace... It is matter of... Are we as a people willing to make the sacrifice... Islam, if the truth be told, will give no quarter and will take no prisoners to reach their goal... One World goverment under Islamic rule... One only has to look to any country under Islamic Rule and how women are treated in these goverments to understand this is something we must and will guard against at any cost...

........Up until this Point... Americans have been willing, ready, and able to sacrifice ourselves in the course of protecting the inalienable rights given us by the Providence of God... Freedom...Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...

While there are men in this country who would exploit the worlds less fortunate... We as a nation would not, and do not condone it.

Should our forces be in Iraq and Afganastan?... Yes... Is it righteous?... I am not sure... I have mixed emotions on that one... But the thought of tens of millions of Americans dieing from starvation and the subsequent melee definitly leans me in the direction of absolutes.... right or wrong...

If you demand a yes or no... Yes... If only it were as simple as Yes or No...

[dirtdobber]

thanks for answering in what seems half heartedly but I do have to give you credit for being truthfull. I also understand your conviction is very strong for you. the only thing Im trying to get you to understand (sounds like swamp also) is the fact there is only 1 GOD and we as his children have the ability to believe how we want in order to set beside him in eternal life. I only dissagree with you preaching your way is the only way. MY BOSS WAS A JEWISH CARPENTER!!!!

[CenterPointEX]

thanks for answering in what seems half heartedly but I do have to give you credit for being truthfull. I also understand your conviction is very strong for you. the only thing Im trying to get you to understand (sounds like swamp also) is the fact there is only 1 GOD and we as his children have the ability to believe how we want in order to set beside him in eternal life. I only dissagree with you preaching your way is the only way. MY BOSS WAS A JEWISH CARPENTER!!!! Dirtdobber, you are on record as saying that you believe the Bible to be true... The following are the Words of yours and my Jewish Carpenter Boss... This Jewish Carpenter claimed to be God, He also made the claim that no one would set beside in eternal life except those who believed in Him... Jesus said his way is the Only Way... These are not my word... rather they are the words of my Jewish Boss.

You can click on the blue links to read the passage in context...

John 8:24 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+8:24&version=31) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+8&version=31) I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

John 14:6 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+14:6&version=31) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+14&version=31) Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to Heaven except through me.


John 11:25 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+11:25&version=31) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+11&version=31) Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;

John 10:9 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+10:9&version=31) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+10&version=31) I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. [ Or kept safe] He will come in and go out, and find pasture

John 6:51 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+6:51&version=31) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+6&version=31) I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

[Orgnizdlbr]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060507/ts_nm/vatican_davinci_dc_1


Looks like someone in Rome has a burr under his saddle.......

[Patriot]

It is an attack on Christianity plain and simple. If the same attack, and movie was made about muslims, the world would be in a state of riot! Why do we, those of us that believe in the Christian religion set by, with our hands in our pockets, let such trash gain momentum and news space? Tom hanks is a dick wad, and the movie is what it is, a movie, fiction,and born of a mans imagination.! I give it two (birds up) err I mean thumbs down!

[dirtdobber]

C.P. miracles never seem to sease. you are correct I do believe in our LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST AND THE ONLY WAY TO ETERNAL LIFE IS TO BELIEVE IN HIM. in your words you say that there is only one savior one GOD but you still dislike the way others believe in THE LORD. what is the problem is it because Im not lutheran as yourself? oe is it you hate other religions and the only way is in your way sounds like youd like to be our savior!!! :) :D :) :D

[Orgnizdlbr]

Come on Patriot...
It ain't an "Attack" on Christianity. Christainity is bigger than that. I think It will "weather the storm", especially with people like you



That is called in the vernacular "hittin the nail on the head." I couldnt say it any better than that. People need to view the book and movie for what they are....FICTION!

[Patriot]

Come on Patriot...
It ain't an "Attack" on Christianity. Christainity is bigger than that. I think It will "weather the storm", especially with people like you.

Does make people like me, sorta go "hummmm..." though.

.

There ya go....

You gonna see the Movie man? With an open Mind? Do you think Jesus was married to Mary? :-)

Interesting Stuff.

NOT....if ya got FAITH though.

"Keep the FAITH"....or not.

No I don't think he was married to Mary! Geeez! And I probably won't waste my money on the movie either. I put it in the same category as "Broke Back" :-)

Keep the faith brother!

[CenterPointEX]

The Da Vinci Code is an attack on Christianity in that it seeks to debunk and discredit the Bible as lies... Brown claims the truth of Jesus life and message were hijacked by the Apostles after the death of Christ...

.... ... The Da Vinci Code on the front of the cover proclaims it is a.. Novel:A fictional prose narrative of considerable length, typically having a plot that is unfolded by the actions, speech, and thoughts of the characters.

If you open up to page one... The opening salvo is "FACT", then he proceeds to weave fact, fiction, and pure lies into the heart of those like Swamp who will jump at any anything that would discredit the Bible... the Word of God. People will accept these fiction based lies as truth, because they would rather do this than admit they are Sinners in need of Salvation which they can not attain of their own merit..

The True Message of Dan Browns Novel is in the last paragraph on the last page in the last paragraph of the book...on the last page of the Book Dan Brown finaly gets down to what the book is about... To bring us to the "Holy Grail"... Which Brown claims is to kneel at the bones of Mary Magdeline and worship the true godess... Brown claims Mary was the Goddess Aphrodite, Venus, Isis, Dianah... call her what you want... the Sex goddess... The wife of the Biblical Nimrod...

Brown is not the first to try and debunk the Word of God... many; like Dan Brown and Swamp, over the milleniums have tried and failed.

.....Swamp is right... in spite of his or Dan Browns best efforts to prove otherwise... the Truth of the Bible... Gods Truth... will always prevail... The very first to try to discredit this was Satan in his conversation with Eve in the garden of Eden. Satan said to Eve, I know what Gods word says, but listen to what my logic has come up with... "I used my brain to derive the truth not some "Word of God Mumbo Jumo Myth"...

Genesis 3...The Fall of Man 1 Now the serpent Swamp was crafty... He said to them, "Did God really say this?... 4( I don't believe what God said, nor should you... use your logic..) "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.

Even among Lutherans Swamp, the truth is under attack... The Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA) no longer holds the Bible to be true and inerrant...

........Swamp the Luthern Church Missouri Synod(LCMS) does not claim itself to be true, inerrant, or infallible... We are not the only way. We do as a church body though, defend the postion that the Bible is True, inerrant, and infallible and that Jesus Christ is the Only Way. Any church that takes this postion Swamp falls within the pail of orthodoxy and thus is part of the true "Catholic" (which means one) Church... The Bible teaches that there is only One Way to Heaven. Your problem Swamp, is not with what I teach... your problem is with what the Bible teaches... You for some reason refuse to read it...

....Swamp, you claim that I do not have an open mind because I won't consider or examine the evidence of other religions...(which is not true)
........ You on the other hand Swamp, are guilty of this very thing you accuse me of, because you refuse to read, consider, or examine the evidence of the Bible... nor will you speak to the One God who gave it to Man... It seems for some reason Swamp... You and God ain't on speaking terms...

[dirtdobber]

seems like you have no comment on my last post why is that you choose to ignore me or does it bother you?

[CenterPointEX]

You believe the 2 people on earth thing huh? ... Reality and Logic wise? It's crap. ...The "Words of God" that you speak of are "words of Faith", backed by Nothing. he ONLY way to heaven. Keep your "faith" man. "God" Bless ya.......... Swamp, If you believe the Bible... or if you believe in evolution... you believe we started from two people... If evolution is true, there had to a be a Point where there was only one man and one woman in our current stage of development... In recorded history Swamp, not one single thing has evolved into something else... Did evolution take a break because man started recording and studying>?

.... Tell me Swamp... you say you believe in a creator... How did your creator start us out? Did he create a million of us at once? Did he put one cell on earth and tell it to evolve slowly over millions of years to the Point where one man and one woman evolved? Which evolved first Swamp? A man evolved and shortly there after a woman evolved?

........ ... . . Because they have learned so much about the structure of cells since Darwin SWamp, Science no longer believes in evolution... They have not come up with anything to replace it... but they no longer believe in evolution... from what they have found, it is just not possible... Swamp you say you believe in a creator... one God... by faith you believe this... you have no logic to back it up... you have no knowledge of this God... You have no knowledge of any of mans religions... not even you own... The only place your God exists in in your heart Swamp... Not a single person walking this earth believes in your God... They can not because what and who he is exists only in Swamps mind... N there ain't none of us in there with you...

..... Swamp, there is more manuscript evidence to support Biblical History than any other history on earth... We have over five thousand new testiment manuscripts , the earliest dated in the first centry A.D.... The Old Testiment History manuscripts have just as impressive geneologys... Every time we find an older manuscript in Archology Swamp, it afirms the authenticity of the ones we already have... Swamp they are written in the origional languages... they are copies of the origional letters... We still have people who speak those origional languages... The Bible we have today is not a translation of a translation of a translation... It a translation of the origional language as written... the copies all match... they all say the same thing... they have not channged... This is well documented... But you Swamp refuse to examine or consider this evidence...

If we use your argument about not being able to trust what we today have... Then there is no other History we can trust SWamp... No other historical documents or writings come anywhere close, not even in the same ball park, to being reliable according to your standards... As far as surviving accounts from eye wittnesses Swamp, we would be better able to prove the life, death, and resurrection of Jeus Christ, than that Nero, Julies Ceaser or Abraham Lincoln for that matter ever walked the earth...

No other religion Swamp claims this kind of documentation or history... All of the other religions Swamp were written by one man... Buddism, Hinduism, Islam, Mormanism... were all the thoughts of one man who respectivly started their religion... Judeo/Christianity is a collection of historical revelations written by Gods people since the beginning... Their prophecies have been and are being fulfilled... No other religon can make this claim... No other religion claims a leader who died and came back from the dead... NONE... Nobody dies for a lie Swamp... all the apostles saw the risen Christ, gave up everything, and accepted horrible deaths because to the end they preached that Christ rose from the dead... The would not have done this for something they knew to be a lie...

[Patriot]

As a plug for the Lutheran church, Martin Luther, in all actuallity, started the protestant religion. He was a catholic monk, that broke away from the corruption of the catholic religion. A true rebel, and anti-establishment guy! :-)

[CenterPointEX]

Sitting here looking at the last paragraph of the Da Vinci Codes last paragraph... I had an epiphany... Right after it says the quest for the Holy Grail leads us to bow at the bones of Mary Mag... It continues... "and pray to the Outcast One." The Outcast One is none other that El Diablo hisself...

Swamp... All of the first Christians were Jews... There were Jews then and there are Jews now who have accepted Jesus as the Messiah... Thier Lord and Savior... The Holy One of Isreal who would deliever men from their sins as prophesied and Pointed to in the whole of the Jewish Bible... the Old Testiment... Whole nations as one have rejected Him and taught their children to do the same... That is why Lazaras wanted to go back and warn his brothers... I think that Lazaras's contribution to the lack of faith in his brothers added to his torment in Hell... He thought if could go back and undo some of it... It might ease his suffering... But, at the first death, your earthly deeds and your decision to reject Christ will be ratified eternally.
............. Abraham was a Jew... Abraham believed in Jesus... It was possible to believe in Him before he was born of men... cause before he was born of men... He existed... and thus... even in the time of Abraham... or the time of Adam and Eve for that matter... It was possible to accept or reject the Holy One of Isreal... The Messiah... one hundred percent man... one hundred percent God... Jesus the Christ...

Martin Luther was appalled at the thought of starting another religion... He simply; after reading the Bible for all it was worth, wanted to bring the Catholic Church back to its Biblical roots from which it had departed in the name of commerce... Rome refused to hear the Words of the Bible... they were sticking to the guns of "Tradition" in order to control the people. They asked Martin Luther to refute his words... Martin replied, he could not for they were not his words but rather the words of God.

[CenterPointEX]

The Jews thought Jesus to be neither a Prophet nor even good... The Jews unsderstood Jesus to be calling Himself God... They thought Him to be a liar and or worse... for this reason they crucified him...

The Jews understood as do I, that Jesus proclaimed to be one with the Father. The Bible teaches this... Now for folks who do not believe the Bible to be True, Jesus was just a Prophet and or a good teacher...

But , Swamp... there is no historical doubt that Jesus existed... That he was crucified... Even you believe it but I am not sure why?

"The Wages of Sin is Death" No one;not even Jews, is exempt from the Law... The penalty for our sins must and has been paid... all we are to do is accept the penalty that has been paid in our behalf.

[Patriot]

The Jews were looking for a waring God. One that would rescue them from the Romans. And when Jesus arrived and did not want to attack, kill, destroy, the Romans,. they were disenchanted and did not believe that the true Christ had came. But yet he had, died, was buried,rose from the dead, and saved us all! They will come around, in time, and I choose to take sides with the Jews, as they are the true sons of Christ, and Christ is the King of the Jews!

Forgive them father as they know not what they do!


Always, remember, the best revenge is forgiveness!

[CenterPointEX]

Swamp, how is it you claim that Jesus lived is a fact? What source do you use to proclaim that Jesus lived?

And What of the Apostles Matthew, Peter, John, Andrew etc.? Did they in fact exist according to your sources Swamp? Or do you believe the Apostles to be fictional charactors?

[dirtdobber]

when we get to where we are going want to have a beer and shoot a game of pool? :)

[CenterPointEX]

I answered your question earlier Swamp
"The Wages of Sin is Death" ...No one;not even Jews, is exempt from the Law... The penalty for our sins must and has been paid...Jews and Gentiles... all we are to do is accept the penalty that has been paid in our behalf, or we can choose to pay it ourself... and second, Mark and Luke were not Apostles... I thought you said you read the Bible?
DAMN...Did a friggin lightbulb just come on in your head?...YES. ...ONE God for ALL religions. ONE GOD Created ... Life on earth... THAT god is the SAME God of ALL religions... I don't believe in the "Jesus Incident".
The "jesus incident" happened. I believe that. Is he the son of god? Swamp, do you believe that Jesus rose from the dead? All of the apostles met horrible deaths because they all preached to the end, that Jesus rose from the dead... People don't accept torture and death for something they know to be a lie Swamp. There were over five hundred wittnesses who saw Jesus walking around after he had been crucified... That is why I asked earlier what source you use to proclaim that Jesus and the apostles did indeed live and are not mythical charactors.
The Jewish Bible predicted that the Messiah would come... and that he would die hung on a tree... Crucifiction had not yet been invented when that prophecy was written Swamp. It predicted where he would be born, how he would die, where he would be burried, and that he would indeed rise from the Dead...

The evidence that Jesus rose from the dead comes from the same source that tells us about the rest of his life...


So Swamp, do you believe that Jesus rose from the dead?



Sitting here looking at the last paragraph of the Da Vinci Codes last paragraph... I had an epiphany... Right after it says the quest for the Holy Grail leads us to bow at the bones of Mary Mag... It continues... "and pray to the Outcast One." The Outcast One is none other that El Diablo hisself...

[CenterPointEX]

John 1:9–12 describes Jesus this way: “There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name.”

Since the time Jesus was born, there have always been people who have not recognized Jesus for who He is. Some people say He was a good teacher. Others say that He was simply a historically significant person, and others say He was a prophet.

But He was and is the Son of God. His death on the Cross proved His divine love for us . . . and His resurrection proved His almighty power.

[Koga]

But I was just wondering , how long are yall gonna go on ??? :eek:



Koga :D

[CenterPointEX]

I reckon we got til we quit breathing Koga... or we quit paying our internet bill one... Koga what do you believe about how the human race came to be... evolution? creation?... and what happens to us when we die Koga ? Is there life after death or do we just cease to exist?

[Koga]

into this, so lets just say ..... Ill see ya there! :D

Koga

[CenterPointEX]

Koga, My Boss is a Jewish Carpenter also...I think you are reachable because you claim to believe that the Bible is true... That is a Point from which we can proceed. I can reason with you from that which you call Truth. Swamp on the other hand believes that man posses no source of absolute Truth... Thus Swamps truth is in flux, meaning it is a moving target. What I have been trying to do with Swamp is pin him down on exactly what it is he believes. Which is hard because he really don't know himself what that is. The the process has been labored and arduous. For instance, He made the statement on numereous occasions that He believes in the Ten Commandments... So I singled out one and asked if he believed it. He did not... Swamp also claims that all religions worship the same God. This is a precept of the
Da Vinci Code and the same thing a huge chunk of America believes. It took me about six weeks to get Swamp to settle on a definitinon of "All Religions". It became clear that his belief was irrational. "All Religions" includes in his eyes every religion practiced on the face of the earth... Some folks worship Satan outright. Satan and God are not one and the same . It has been like pulling teeth to get from SWamp what he really believes. Swamp preaches that all roads and all religions lead to the same place... If I said get on I-10 and stay on it till you get to Washington D.C., I would be making an irrational statement, and anyone who followed my advice would never get to Washington D.C.. The Bible which you agree is truth says narrow is the way to Heaven... eternal life in Christ Jesus... but wide is the path to Hell... life apart from Christ Jesus... Any man; including Jews, who rejects this... is on the wide path... i.e. they will not be going to Heaven... Swamp is right in a sense... Everyone who does not worship the God of Abraham, Issiac, and Jacob... does worship the same god... and that god waits for them at the end of the wide path... The end result for those who worship Satan will be very different from that of those who worship God: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...

The Da Vinci Code very clearly points to worship of the female diety who was the Wife of Nimrod who set himself up as the god of Babylon and was worshiped as such til an untimely death left his Wife in Charge... who be became the Diety Defacto... and thence began the worship of the goddess... This religion includes sexual rites with men, women, eunichs, boy and girls... also human sacrifice... It is still practiced today as revealed in the Da Vinci Code... Its precepts can be found in Wicca, Masonic, and other secret societies... Just like in the Da Vinci Code...today only the upper heirarchy practices the associated sacred rites... thus the lower level Masons will never know about what goes on at the upper reaches of its power structure... If they knew they would not support this organization... But the Masonic Diety is the Great Architect of the Universe... the Architect of Babylon... Nimrod... The Great Hunter Against God... as Proclaimed in Genisis... This stuff is real folks... and Dan Brown leads you to the trough and asks you to drink...

[CenterPointEX]

You sanktamonious bastard. Shit, you should be the POPE of Christianaty. :-)...I just Believe.... I resemble that statement... Naw Swamp... not the Pope of Christianity... Just the Pope of Powerlineman.com... :I know you believe Swamp... Its what you believe that puzzles me...
The "jesus incident" happened. I believe that.
I don't believe in the "Jesus Incident".

Nope. I don't believe Jesus rose from the dead.

DAMN...Did a friggin lightbulb just come on in your head?...YES. ...ONE God for ALL religions... god is the SAME God of ALL religions...
You forget I was brought up catholic. I know a "tad" about the bible.
Ya forgot the apostles Mark and Luke. Of course they existed. You don't get it CP. The Bible is real, the people are real. The Stories?...shit was exadurated,
I got just as much Faith as you man...Faith, there IS a God, ONE supreme being or diety that is responsible for the creation of Life on the planet earth....CP,
I read the Bible...quite a few times. You're right though....I got a LOT of "problems" with the "stories" in it. "God" Bless ya..........
What I'm sayin, and HAVE been sayin is that, THAT God is the SAME God of Every Religion!..All religions are talking about the Same Supreme being.
Yeah, you're right. I forgot about the whole Trinity thing. God the father, God the Son and God the holy ghost.
It was confusing when I was goin to catacism. Still is. My Mom, may she rest in peace, use to pray to about every saint there was. It's all "interesting".....I don't know CP. I just remember a little bit from "sunday school", and for some reason, I just liked Big John, that's all. I think he was a bit of a radical back then. Probably why he got his head handed to him.
Don't EVEN bother CP. Remember...I'm Agnostic.

[LostArt]

Oh, oh, oh!!! I've read that book! Brown can weave a mean tale!! And Tom Hanks is in the movie!! I LOVE Tom Hanks!! :D

YAY!! Can't wait to see it! :D

Oh.........was I suppose to read this thread CP? ;) Missed ya buddy. Glad none of these here fellers ran ya off. 'Course, I've never heard of a trueblooded Texan runnin' for the hills!

(Koga........haven't you ever read that story, "The Neverending Story"? Well........it's kinda like here, there really is no end! :D )

[CenterPointEX]

The Da Vinci Code" Novel... Page 1 says "FACT" then lists lies coupled with facts Quote:

Originally Posted by Swamprat
That ain't drunken wisdom...That's factual reality. It just comes out from your gut, ...The Truth is the Truth though...
Oh....BTW CP'ster............
"The Da Vinci Code" movie is comin out next month. What's your take on that, bulldog? I've read the book. Lookin forward to the movie....YOU gonna see it? You read the book? ...I'm SURE you got a take......:-)

.................................................. ...................

Safe Sex... Holy SEX... Holy Grail... HOly Womb

First I will say, Dan Brown is a good entertaining writer... He is no Grishim but, he is a good articulator none the less...

"The Da Vinci Code" Cover says Novel... Page 1 first word says "FACT" then lists lies coupled with facts... A good mystry plays out intermingled with these supposed facts...Then in the last paragraph of the last page Dan Brown reveals the Holy Grail... The Point of the Book... That all men should come to the end of the quest and bow at the Bones of Mary Magdelin and worship her as the godess she is... the godess Christ intended to lift up... Aphrodite... Venus... Isis... Dianah... which ever of her names you chose to call her... And after the Mary Mag bones comment... It continues... "And Pray to the Outcast One." I contend that the Outcast one is none other than El Diablo Hisself.

If you have read the book, then you know that what Dan Brown and Swamp seek to do is what all cults seek to do... Redifine Christ...
All cults (Mormans, Jehovahs Wittnesses, Unitarians, Muslims, Christian Scientists, HIndues, etc.) seek to neuter Jesus of his Diety...
Make him a sinner... and if a sinner then not God...

.....Jesus was crucified by his own people who made him to be a sinner... Impuned or otherwise...

In the words of Dan Brown...,
. . ..... "Jesus was no more God than you and I are."

Dan Brown believes that Jesus was screwing Mary Mag and that Mary Mag was really the one we were supposed to build the church on... not The Rock... Peters confession that Jesus was the Son of God... Those male chauvenist Apostles hijacked the Christian movement out of jealous pride... or so the Gnostic gospels purport...

....What it really is, that Dan Brown preaches, is the repackaged worship of the female diety Isis... who was the wife of Nimrod deified... which I have discussed at length in an earlier thread... If you want to see, if what I say is true, don't bother reading the whole book... just read the first three pages, then read the last chapter...

... The goddes Isis is a fertility god... they renamed her Diana in the time of Jesus... Diana is mentioned in the book of acts I beleive... The folks were angry because the Jesus movement was causing a slump in the sales of their statue of Isis or Diana... putting the local ecomony in a bit of a bind...Any way they had temple prostitutes whom ya had Safe Sex with, to get purified for your bad deeds... They also had holy prostitutes who sired children of the holy blood line... A.KA. Holy Blood, Holy Grail... The holy grail or holy recepticle or holy womb, if you will, according to Dan Brown, is Mary Mag... who screwed Jesus and sired his children... and according to what they teach, the blood line comes down thru the female... and so the holy womb has been breeding the blood line down to this day... siring all sorts of holy dudes... Wiccas, templor knights, Masons, witches... etc...

On page 432 of the book Mr. Brown talks about a chapel in Edinberg you can go visit that has all sorts of relics from these religions... The stones are carved with symbols of all the religions that are one... Pentagrams, Templar crosses, pyramids, masonic symbols, etc..

If the Jesus defined in the Da Vincie Code is who he really is, then the Bible as we know it is B.S. ... Jesus did not die for our Sins... If Jesus did not pay the price for our sins, then in order to go on in the next life we must somehow pay the price for our sin ourself... or maybe if we do fifty one percent more good than we do bad, we get into heaven... who knows... If Dan Brown is right, then we really do not have any truth, and all truths are equaly vallid or equally B.S. ...

Folks will jump at this just as they jumped at Darwinism, because it frees them up to pursue without guilt, all of their sexual passions... Safe SEX if you will...

Neither Swamp, Dan Brown nor a greater portion of America believe that there is absolute truth that man posses... all truth is relative or That Jesus is the Son of God and no one gets to heaven except thru him...

[Orgnizdlbr]

CP, it is a work of fiction....those of us who have a lucid thought process will view it that light, those that believe in the easter bunny and the great pumpkin may be decieved, have a little faith in mankind bro......

[dirtdobber]

fellows looks like this is getting a little out of hand c.p. is stirring the pot pretty damn good. if he would stop and think in someone elses shoes instead of his own penny loafers maybe he would understand what everyone is trying to tell him. there is only one way to heaven and that is through the belief in JESUS CHRIST wether you are baptist or jewish the end result should be that we all get to where we are going!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) :) :)

[CenterPointEX]

Fact is not merly or exclusivly a matter of "faith". How do we determine if History is fact or fiction? Da Vinci states in his book that only the winners write history. I don't agree with that. History is history no matter your "point of view". That Abraham Lincoln got shot is not a matter of point of view. It is history... the evidence bears that out... That Abraham got shot for taking slaves away from the Slave owners is a "point of view"... But, an opinion of why something happened has nothing to do with whether or not it happened... As in the birth, crucifixion and ressuraction of Jesus Christ... That this happened, historical evidence can not deny... The evidence would convince any jury hands down... But so many like Swamp, chose not to examine the evidence... If you refuse to examine the evidence, then any conclusion you make about the incident will by default have to dwell in the realm of faith. It could be no other way. So when Swamp makes the claim that, "whether the 'Jesus incident' is fact or fiction is a matter of faith"... for him... sans evidence... it is...

[the hammer]

I read the book and found it very entertaining. It does however say right on the book that it is a work of fiction.

[the hammer]

Not sure I belive that is the only way to heaven. Christians make up a minority in the world as a whole, are you saying all others are headed to hell? Jesus is suppose to forgive those who sin, so who says that he won't meet those that don't believe at the pearly gates and give them another chance to believe if in fact the christians are right? I know several people who are not christian, and they are better people than many of those who are believers of Jesus.

[CenterPointEX]

Christians make up a minority in the world as a whole, are you saying all others are headed to hell? Jesus is suppose to forgive those who sin, so who says that he won't meet those that don't believe at the pearly gates and give them another chance to believe if in fact the christians are right? I know several people who are not christian, and they are better people than many of those who are believers of Jesus. I am afraid you have been misinformed Hammer

....The Bible makes the claim that if you break just one of the "Ten Commandments" then you have sinned... and the penalty for Sin is Death... eternal seperation from God... Hell... The Bible also says that the Penalty for your Sin has been paid by Gods only Son Jesus the Christ... He accepted the punishment you deserve...But because there was no sin in him, death could not hold him... Hades had no claim on Him. All who accept this sacrifice are set free from the law... because they have been redeemed by him... their sins died with Him and they rose again with Him... That He lived, died, and rose again on the third day is not in doubt... It did not happen in a vacume... there were many wittnesses to the teaching of Jesus... There were many wittnesses to His Crucifixion... and there were many wittnesses to his resurrection... This coupled with the prophecies of the Old Testiment that have come, and are comming to pass should be wittness enough for us... The Bible makes it clear... at the end of your earthly life your decision to accept or reject Jesus Christ... God... is ratified... you will then spent enernity with or apart from Him.... All men with exception know this in their hearts... So, if you are rejecting Him... you know it... You have a God shaped hole in your heart... You will labor to fill it... if not with God then you will seek to fill it with an earthly filler... Sucess, Wealth, Sex, Power, etc... and when you finally despair at the realization that nothing you fill it with brings you peace... You will then either turn to God and know the peace that passes all understanding... or you will begin to Medicate... with a Drug of one sort or another... Despair will Spiral... when it happens to you... only call out to Him and he will pluck you from the Chaos... I know... and now that I know... my heart breaks for those who still live as I did... apart from His peace... I can not physically touch all of them, but those I do, I share with, His love and the hope that is in me...

[the hammer]

[QUOTE=CenterPointEX]I am afraid you have been misinformed Hammer

....The Bible makes the claim that if you break just one of the "Ten Commandments" then you have sinned... and the penalty for Sin is Death... eternal seperation from God... Hell...

So everyone who has used God's name in vein is going to hell??? Who hasn't at some point in their life used God's name in vein? It has been said that we all sin, so what you say means that we are all going to hell. Give me a break. Like I said, most of the population is not even christian. Are any of going to be spared from hell then?

[the hammer]

On this same topic, who thinks we came from apes and who thinks we came from adam and eve?

[CenterPointEX]

[QUOTE=CenterPointEX]So everyone who has used God's name in vein is going to hell??? Who hasn't at some point in their life used God's name in vein? It has been said that we all sin, so what you say means that we are all going to hell. Give me a break. Like I said, most of the population is not even christian. Are any of going to be spared from hell then? Yes, Hammer... that is the message of the Gospel...

Jesus paid the penalty for your sin... all who accept what Jesus did for them will not have to pay the penalty...

But all who reject Christs sacrifice for their sins will be going to Hell... Eternal seperation from God.

I really don't understand why folks so hate this message.

[CenterPointEX]

Originally Posted by Swamprat
If your talkin about the "D Code". It's a MOVIE man. Dan Brown was asked by an inteviewer, "How much of this is based on reality in terms of things that actually occured?" Dan Browns reply, "Absolutely all of it!"

The charactor Teabing in the book said, "What I mean is that almost everything our fathers taught us about Faith is false."

The gospels written by the eyewittnesses are false... the gnostic gospels written one hundred and fifty years later tell the real truth...

Broke Back Mountain was just a Movie Swamp?... I don't think so... Now there is a Story with a hidden agenda...

[CenterPointEX]

Well, me personally....yeah, bout everything I was taught about "faith"...I'll be nice...is "false". I like bullshit better, but...we'll go with false. How do you know what you have been taught is false?... Do you believe what you were taught is false because of evidence you have come across or do you believe it by faith?
Why the uproar? It is fiction isn't it? Who cares? dbrown20 It is fiction but D Brown says its fact... Swamp kinda agrees with him...

[dbrown20]

Why the uproar? It is fiction isn't it? Who cares? dbrown20

[CenterPointEX]

Shit CP...get a damn life man, you one sided, "evidence" based .......

If jesus had a kid, and this was true...what difference would it make in your "faith" in him?... "God" put his son here as a human...WITH all the wants and desires of a human.

...logic. Something you won't consider, cause you got "Faith". ...................................

[CenterPointEX]

Well my friend, there's alot of "Truth" in the bible. There's,... personal opinion of course... Alot of bullshit in there too.


I was raised to believe in god. I do.

BTW....since jesus died, when was the last "miracle" that the people of christianity witnessed?

Besides, I don't believe in hell either. Don't believe in a God that would be that cruel.

Who is your God Swamp? Where can I learn about him... You keep saying
"There is one God, same God of all religions, just different stories about him." Where or from whom can we learn about your God Swamp? Dan Brown of the Da Vinci Code believes a lot of the same things you do about God... But I keep asking and keep getting no answer as to where you and Dan Brown get your information about God.

You want a modern day miricle? How about the Bible predicting that Isreal would be reborn in a single day and its people would be brought home from all parts of the world with the help all nations? It happened in nineteen fourty eight... How about the Arab Islamic armies mounting up to crush Isreal before it got off the ground... and against all odds the war was over in six day... The armies of Islam sent packing with their tail between their legs... and the Palestinians left without a home....? Check it out Swamp... these things happened... Look into history and try and figure out how Isreal defeated the Arab armies?... After you examine the evidence, you will be left with only one explanation... MIRICLE....

[CenterPointEX]

The argument you make Swamp is,... We live in America... a free country... So if we do not believe in Americas stupid rules... and we wanna say, Rob a bank... and we kill somebody in the process... and they put us in jail for the rest of our lives... then how are we free? If we have to accept its rules and therefor can't do what we want, then we are not free...America is not a free country...

Yes, Swamp in America we have free will, but some free will acts come with life long earthly consequences. In the same mannor God gives us free will, but one free will choice comes with eternal consequences...

Yes Adam and Eve ushered sin; the knowledge of Evil, into the world Swamp... But Swamp, you have broken all of the Ten Commandments that you purport to believe... Swamp you are guilty on your own merit, you need no help from Adam and Eve... All God asks you to do is trust Him... trust that his way brings life... If you chose not to do so, then you chose eternal seperation from Him... You would have it no other way, and He will not force you to spend eternity with him...

...........Hell is a permanent seperation from His presence... The intimacy we had with God in the garden... All men taste hell now Swamp in that we no longer experience that intimacy... But the burning torment of Hell Swamp will be a total seperation from the presence of his love and the rememberance of that earthly portion of his love we did experience... The fire will not be physical, but rather eternal burning regret...

I have spoke with several folks who have had near death experiences... I have experienced this myself... I have talked to three other men who have experienced God... I have talked to one who experienced Hell... Fire or Light are words that grasp to convey something that can not be contained by mere words or human thought... I understood completely the fella who was trying to describe to me the Hell he tasted in his near death expeience... The overwhelming presence of Evil... I understood because I experienced the overwhelming presence of Gods Love wrapped in an undertow at the bottem of the Comal river...

Swamp, if you would like a taste... just get on you knees, tell God that you are a sinner in need of his forgiveness... Then just ask Him for a taste of that Love... He Will Not Deny You... Should you chose to do this, you will become as I... you will want to tell people about the change in your heart... and it will grieve you to no end Swamp to run into folks entrenched in your former postion... but you will love them anyway... and you will persist... as do I

[CenterPointEX]

Why thank you Swamp... Amen and Gig Em...:cool:

[CenterPointEX]

for you god created ADAM & EVE tell me where we all descended from that point. ... best I can remember someone viewed there FATHER in his nakedness :D That would be Noah and his family... another Point from which we all decended... In the beginning our genes had only recently begun to degenerate/die after the fall thru sin... Thus the edict against incest had not yet been given... A husband and wife procreating for seven, eight, nine hundred years will have a lot of children... and each of those children doing the same would create a herd pretty fast...consider rabbits... or mice...

[Meat]

People lived for 7, 8, or 9 hundred years? Not only that, but were humping like rabbits all that time. Thats the 2nd most ridiculous thing I ever heard.

[LostArt]

People lived for 7, 8, or 9 hundred years? Not only that, but were humping like rabbits all that time. Thats the 2nd most ridiculous thing I ever heard.

Which comment Meat? Living seven to nine hundred years or men and women humpin' like rabbits?

[Meat]

Your wife is lets say 850 and she still looks good enough to nail. Thats a bit of a stretch.

[Dave@PSE&G]

Which comment Meat? Living seven to nine hundred years or men and women humpin' like rabbits?

Men and women living together for 7,8,900 years... and not killing each other!:D

[LostArt]

Men and women living together for 7,8,900 years... and not killing each other!:D

LOL! I'd call that a miracle and even yell AMEN! :D


Meat, I can't help but laugh. Some youth think any one over 40 years is old. Can you imagine those 100 yr olds back then looking at those 7,8,900 yr olds and saying it was disgusting????

Okay, I thought that hillarious. However, no one can blame me for the one bringing up REAL old people humpin' like rabbits!!

http://www.avowners.com/forum/smileys/zzzb.gif

[CenterPointEX]

Lets see... can I imagine a couple healthy enough to be humping, not humping anymore? Something I never seem to tire of is humping... Ok try this one on for size Meat... Reptiles as long as they live never quit getting bigger... Now imagine the size of a lizard that lived for three hundred years... Can you say Big Lizard..or in Latin... Dinosaur?

[LostArt]

Lets see... can I imagine a couple healthy enough to be humping, not humping anymore? Something I never seem to tire of is humping...

Uh.....was that a Christian thing to say CP? Just throwin' it out there! :D And no, I don't have a problem with it. But, then again....I seem to have been labeled not being a lady either! Heh.

Back to the "topic"....I think Jesus had a place in his heart for those not considered ladylike, don't you? Mary Magdeline sure seemed to have a special place in His heart. Do you agree?

[CenterPointEX]

Song of Solomon... ever read it? It's all about humping inside a marriage... Humpin is a gift given to a man and his wife by God... Humin is more than ok it is a command... Go forth and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it... Jesus had a special place in his heart for all who have fallen short of the glory of God... Which be all of us... Jesus went to those who were most willing to turn to him... those who were at the bottom and had no where else to go... He gave them hope like nothing or no one else ever gave them... He gave them worth who felt themselves worthless... He let them know... though you have done great wrongs... I love you... I care about you... and I am willing to go to the mat for you... I am willing to stand in to take the heat you deserve... because I love you... You have worth... turn to me and sin no more...

[CenterPointEX]

Yes Swamp... I do know whats involved in this debate... Children... to kill them or not is the question.
You are a true liberal cocksucker... Let me say this about this "Anti abortion, Pro Choice" Bullshit...It ain't none of your god damn business!!!

You want to enact laws, that tell people, you can or can not DECIDE what to do with your own body? Don't Force your shit on anybody else, and don't make it a "Law" in America. Ya want to make a "Law'? ...Your....PERSONAL call. There's your damn "Law". Roe vs. Wade my ass.....End of Rant. Swamp... it's a funny thing... You are a few Cnt hairs short of being lockstep with Barry on Abortion. You say we should be able to to what we want with our own bodies... that we should not legislate morality... Is it your position Swamp then that we should legalize prostitution? Should we be able to run naked in the streets? Should willing children be allowed to have sex with whom ever they want? Should doctors be able to kill a child five minutes after it is born? On the five minutes after it is born thing, Obama sez, "YES". He believes if a doctor is doing a late term abortion... and the child by chance makes it out of the womb... the doctor should; because of the choice mother made. go ahead and kill the child. This at the end of the day is the choice we are talking about... To Kill the child... or not to kill the child... that is the question. I hear Swamp saying, "If the mother wants to kill the child, she should have a CHOICE to do that... It is her Godd@#n given right to do so! If they want to kill their God D@#n children... Let 'em do so... We should not legislate morality on 'em!

[dirtdobber]

its been a long time since I posted here but it seems like things have not changed as far ass cp is concerned. ABORTION old subject between you and I Cp. but i will have to say for me it is a womans choice with a few of my personal thoughts rape,1 night drunken stand as long as the other individual is notified and HIS thoughts are the same.CP remember the good book says we all will answer for our sins. so what my sins are are none of yours or anyone elses it is between GOD and me. and you and your beliefs pushing them onto others that are unwilling to believe your way of thinking maybe you should try wiyh someone else.

[CenterPointEX]

CP remember the good book says we all will answer for our sins. so what my sins are are none of yours or anyone elses it is between GOD and me. and you and your beliefs pushing them onto others that are unwilling to believe your way of thinking maybe you should try wiyh someone else. Yes, DirtDobber... we each account for our sins... But Dirtdobber... we do legislate our morals on this nation... We have laws against Murder. That we don't Murder is a morality forced upon us.

The Choice remains...

To Kill a Child or not to Kill a Child... That is the Question...

No matter how you sugarcoat that "Choice", it does not change the fact that an innocent Human Being is Brutally Murdered... No matter if you call it infanticide or abortion.

[Daddyof2]

We cant all be right but we can sure all be wrong.

[Daddyof2]

I was commenting on all of our differing beliefs and ideals. I am convinced I am right, you are convinced you are right, and the majority of everyone else feels. the same way. I am not a philosopher or theologian, just my observation. That and 1.29 will get you a coffee at Mcdonalds:cool:

[dirtdobber]

well lets see how I can stir the pot with you c.p. I do not know if you are married or not. but here is the ? if you are your wife is working late gets off work to come home she gets raped by drug addicts or just some scum bag ends up preagnant are you going to force her to carry that child to full term and give birth to that child. then give that child up for adoption or would you give her a choice and stand behind her choice wether its what you want or not. :confused::confused:

[CenterPointEX]

Thats Cold Hearted Batts... But I reckon it takes a Cold Heart to make that Choice... To make a Choice like that, one would have to believe there is no such thing as right or wrong... Just differing opinions... Whose morals are we to live by... Batts?