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Bandaid 33
07-12-2006, 01:36 PM
Dear Folks:

I'm new here and I'm not in the lineman trade. However, I do have about 30 years in heavy construction safety. I was a 3rd generation operating engineer for a union outfit (loaders, dozers, scrapers and blades), was a paramedic along the way and ended up working safety on many big water and transportation projects in the West. I think at our peak, my outfit had about $450 million worth of heavy work underway at one time in 7 or 8 states.

I now work as a safety consultant for some large contractors on the west coast. For some reason, this year has been "power line year" as I have just been called in to assist on my 4th power line strike since the first of this year.
Three of the accidents were concrete pumps and the fourth was a crane. The first was a fatal and the most recent put 4 guys in the hospital.

I'm very familiar with all the practices and preventative measures that can and should be taken to prevent such accidents and as I told a group of hands the other day, there is no case in recorded history where a power line reached out and grabbed a concrete pump boom or crane. These accidents are 100% preventable, 100% of the time. Power lines don't cause accidents; people who put things into power lines do.

Anyway I have a few questions for you guys here.

Back when we were building the Central Arizona Project canal and later building many of the major freeways in Phoenix, we often were able to arrange for SRP or APS to bring a crew out to hang what I called "distance markers" from their lines where we had a potential crane/power line conflict. They were an orange non-conductive plastic marker that looked like a trapeze bar that hung from a plastic chain about 10 ft or more from the line.

The markers were a big help as it gave our crane operators a visual reference against the sky, particularly on cranes with 300 ft of stick in the air, or those cranes that were making picks in the blind. The markers also helped greatly in night construction work that involved cranes working in the vicinity of power lines.

I remember a line crew boss mentioning to me that they usually didn't place the markers out for an extended period of time due to dust accumulation and eventual Uv breakdown, so when the crane/ power line conflict went away, they would usually come back out and take them down.

My questions for you guys:

1. I don't see these things placed on lines much on construction projects anywhere in the western states any more. Is this a practice that has disappeared over time?

2. Do these distance markers have a trade name that is more commonly used?


3. Would anyone have any general or close up photos of these distance markers they could post or share? I use to have several but they have all disappeared over the years.

4. Would anyone have any photos of cranes or boomed equipment accidents involving power lines they would post or share? Believe me, after 30 years in the business, I have a bunch, but I'm always looking for those photos that would have a high impact on a construction crew.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Bandaid 33

Koga
07-14-2006, 10:25 AM
:mad: You went on and on about all you qualifications then turn around and ask a silly question about why we dont mark em for an operator workin close to the lines. Go ask one of those buzzards in suits. The feds cans make all the rules they want ,we can put up all the warning signs ya want, you can talk all ya want ,show videos ,till yer blue in the face, but it aint gonna stop somebody with their head up their ass from gettin killed or killing some one else. A real good example is being litigated as I write this. We stop and talk to the foreman or supervisor on site and the operator, when we see or hear of one working close to our lines. After we warn em verbally, we then give em a folder with a statement card that says they have been informed of all the dangers and understand the regulations and ask they both sign it. This particular idiot who puts up ad signs next to the road for buisnesses with a flat bed mounted steel crane and steel out riggers. He was warned 4 different occassions within 2 months. Tried to shut him down once, we had to call the cops on his ass to get em to stop.A week after the last warning the moron still blew holes in the concrete and burned the tires of his crane sending hisself and one other guy to the hospital. :eek: Found him one of those buzzards while in the hospital bed and its gonna cost the company. Nope ya cant make rules or laws to stop the ol head up the ass or just plain stupidity.All ya can hope is ya get a jury with common sense. (ya right) And dont even get me started on house movers :mad:


Koga

old horseman
07-14-2006, 02:13 PM
The practice as you put is not our job. But if you pick up a phone and call the bean counters I bet they'll dispatch a crew to flag the lines. Make use of Alexander Grahm Bells device it might save a life.


Koga stop being mean to the safety guy!!!!!!!!!

billfoster67
07-14-2006, 05:13 PM
You have to call the power company and get a work order made up. You might have to purchase the barriers. Because if necessary, you might take all the lineguard in the warehouse. Just ask the powercompany what they purchase, usually they are by a.b. chance. Then they have to install them. If'any equipment goes within 10' of lines, you have to have a safety watch. It should be a journeyman lineman, and it depends on the power company what their requirements are. They might call out a two man crew to watch you, or contract with electrical contractor and get a man out of the hall to watch your equipment near the lines.

I have to mention, you want to be safe. A lot of men died in the Northeast a year or two ago when a crane was offloading steel for a high line. He caught a transmission line and a lot of men died of step potential. They were really far from the incident. But between their legs had huge differences of potential and killed a lot of people.

The operator will be fine if contact, but the men around the equipment is in danger.

billfoster67
07-14-2006, 06:00 PM
There is a firm called Rice, Erga, and Associates. They did the investigation in the Massachussetts accident that killed multiple lineman, 10+. They were the independent investigators and the people that testified. It was sad incident because men died counting and organizing the bolts yards away from the contact. Maybe the incident will wake your men or women wake up the damage and death that crane contact can cause. One contact on a transmission feed will bankrupt a company easily. Lawyers will be all over you- criminally and civil. The costs: repair of the line, disruption of power to all customers, the men or women's families that are injured or dead, and the loss of production you will have- because your whole construction site will be a crime scene. And Federal and State OSHA will shut you down.

Bandaid 33
07-14-2006, 10:41 PM
Thank You Oldhorseman and Billfoster67 for your good and sound advice.

I did not mean to imply that installing line barriers was the utilities obligation to prevent an accident; I was just curious to know if it is something that can still be arranged for if needed. It sounds as though depending on the utility and circumstances, it can be.

As for my new friend Koga, if you read my question above, I was not asking why overhead lines aren't marked for equipment operators; I was asking if it is a practice that was still done, as I remember it being done in the past when I was working on job sites.

Also Koga, I too am very familiar with the stupidity that can found on construction sites and I'm very familiar with fatalties. I put 9 people in body bags on job sites in my first 15 years in construction safety; and roughly 20 more since then. My most recent fatality was this past February and it involved a power line, a concrete pump and a father of 2 young children; and yes Koga, I was one of 3 people who broke the news to the family.

Thank you all again for your help.

B-33

loodvig
07-22-2006, 08:39 AM
When we mark power lines now the contractor has to sign a waiver. It says that we only mark the lines and it is not for thier safety.

Patriot
07-22-2006, 10:45 AM
Boy you came to the right place for oppinions. And we all know what they are like.

In a court of law, if barriers, tags,stickers on equipment, all installed and given out by the utillity, the utillity will still be found at fault and lose the law suit. I have seen it in the oil field and on construcion sites.

One was rediculous, we had hung ribbon on the neutral at a road crossing, measured the height, and told the rig workers about the dangers, gave them "look up", stickers which they plasterd on the dash's and doors of thier equipment. One of thier people, while moving the rig to a new location, climbed up on the rig as it was being moved and lifted the primary neutral, that was marked and over legal hieght, he pushed the neutral up into one of the phases, was burned, fell from the rig and was broken up. The jury awarded him and punished the utillity. Since then we don't mark the lines, we warn them if we are aware of thier presence. By marking the wire, we simply made the utillity a target that made them guilty.

But I feel an obligation to try and help my fellow man and keep him from harms way. So I will go out of my way to visit with contractors about clearences and and such.

And then there are house movers!!!!!!!

Wye-Delta
07-22-2006, 07:05 PM
Band-aid...

I for one appreciate your inquiry... I worked for a utility co. for over twenty years and was called to various construction sites and it was usually after the "fact"...some supervision wanting to cut corners! or assuming there would be some exorbanant fee associated with calling the utility...

Every situation is not the same...

Depending on the scope of the construction...the length of time...machinery involved...the proximity of the lines etc....

Depending on the voltages involved, types of line construction etc...

We provided :
-a safety watcher
- line markers
- conductor covers
(I have seen AmerUE in ST. Louis cover full spans of
distribution with rubber hoses that are in 50 ft. reels)
- temporarily relocating the line
the safety watcher and line relocation was at cost...it was to both parties benefit...
As has been previously stated every Utility handles this differently but it is my opinion the Utility needs to be notified and safety be first and foremost...

Bandaid 33
07-24-2006, 11:11 PM
Thank you all for your continuing comments. There is sound logic in your stories, and experiences from the field to the courtroom. I appreciate the years of experience you guys have.

Way back in the old days, among some of the other things we did from the construction safety management side was to tie back or restrict the crane movement, but we sooned learned from the crane manufacturers that doing so was a quick way to turn a crane over, so we immediately stopped the practice. Naturally, we were back to square one with the basics.

In recent years, the crane manufacturers have responded to the problem (to some extent). With the advance of technology, some crane manufacturers have incorporated electronic swing, elevation and extenstion locks on their machines. Tadano Crane for one is a manufacturer that does this. It is sort of like setting the margins on an old mechanical typewriter.

When the crane is set up, the operator swings the boom over to the distance limit from the line and presses a button. At that point the crane will not move past that point as an electronic dump has been programmed into the hydraulic control dropping the swing control pressure to zero.

The operator then swings to the other side and repeats the procedure. The same thing is done for boom elevation and if a hydraulic crane is being used, for the boom extension. The crane can move and operate freely within the "free zone" that has been previously established by the operator. This works fine when these particular model cranes are used, however the swing locks can't control a swinging load that may swing past the point sheave.

Unfortunately, there are more cranes without these features then there are cranes with them. We are also seeing the newer cranes that will actually take control away from an operator if the crane is operated in an unsafe manner. The crane will actually safe itself off, shut itself down, and call, e-mail or page the home office with a distress call. The only way the crane can be placed back into service is for the equipment manager or some other designated management person to respond to the site, and reprogram the onboard computer with a passcode.

The newer cranes also will electronically call the home office with a diagnosis of it's operating condition and report any potential failures before a failure occurs.

All this fancy new stuff is great, but it's ability to prevent power line strikes is really very limited. Many of us on the construction side still believe it is:

a.) The company's responsibility to not place a good operator and piece of
boomed equipment in harm's way in the first place; and whatever means
is available should be used to kill the power or move it as a first means of
accident prevention;
b.) It is the site supervisors responsibility to ensure that adequate site
preparation, training, and other precautionary measures (spotters,
lighting, signs warning lines and ground markings) are used
c.) The operator's responsibility to refuse to make the pick if all of the above
fail and the work can't be done safely(even when ordered to do so by a
wrong headed boss);

Once again, I appreciate all of your comments and past experiences. They help to make the picture about line barriers more clear.

Thanks again,

B-33

Koga
07-25-2006, 06:42 AM
"All this fancy new stuff is great, but it's ability to prevent power line strikes is really very limited. Many of us on the construction side still believe it is:

a.) The company's responsibility to not place a good operator and piece of
boomed equipment in harm's way in the first place; and whatever means
is available should be used to kill the power or move it as a first means of
accident prevention;
b.) It is the site supervisors responsibility to ensure that adequate site
preparation, training, and other precautionary measures (spotters,
lighting, signs warning lines and ground markings) are used
c.) The operator's responsibility to refuse to make the pick if all of the above
fail and the work can't be done safely(even when ordered to do so by a
wrong headed boss);"

In 27 years Ive only seen one co. willing to pay for the re routing of the line.When they finish construction we will go back, heat the line back up and take out the temp run around we built .When we first started this little project I was impressed with thier concern and willingness to go through the expense.

Koga