scada close in-men weren't in the clear

[billfoster67]

Had incident. Power Company had outage. It was dead bird, large raven, on the bus. Crew cleared it off. the phones were busy- radio wasn't working properly. Manager was screaming at dispatcher to close switch. Dispatcher told manager didn't get verification from crew that they were in the clear to close switch- screamed at him to do it. Did it.

Its just getting washed under the bridge. Company said it was jointly responsible incident.???? Everyone is so job scared or nervous to stand up and say this was wrong. Manager doesn't owe up to responsibility.

Been to many utilities where they had open investigations. Meaning the results of the investigation were published and penalties doled out. It was excellent- because it was a lesson learned for everyone. The place where I will be dragging, its the good old boy network. No punishment doled out.

I asked at a safety meeting, at most utilities they suspend people from wrongful acts and unsafe acts, management or bargaining unit employees-it doesn't matter. This idiot said I am going to California... meaning I am from Local 47... but my mother local is 71 and 411 from Ohio. California utilities are not the only ones who dole out punishments for stupidity. Worked construction in a lot of places. If there was a storm and we were on lines we took down the cutouts, undo the switch handles, and ground to make sure we weren't closed in on. With Scada, you can only put up grounds.

Does anyone have any stories of accidental scada close in on bus switches or pole switches or PE gear? I am not used to everything being SCADA. I am used to having a switchmen, actually seeing the men in the field in the clear and switching, and using the radio to reiterate "stay clear I am switching on this apparatus".

What bothered me the most was I was a temporary employee. Asked if they put disciplinary action on people who screw up- endanger lives. The guy that got closed in on said I had no right to talk- since I am temporary. And I was hurting a union brother. I know what happened since I was in the dispatch room that day collecting work from the dispatcher- union employee, and he was really down-felt bad. I told him he wasn't responsible- he was directed to close it.

I am not afraid to speak up. I bleed union. But using unionism to let safety slide is sad. Using unionism, not to speak up in a safety meeting is sad. That is the mission of the union... to have a safe work place...Henry Miller died working Potomac Electric- his whole mission in life was to organize electrical workers - and create safe work conditions by uniting us all.

Thereis a lot of politics and drama in these utilities. And people don't want to step on toes. But if you encounter something unsafe don't be afraid to speak up. A superintendent, general manager is just a man just like you- if he doesn't know the conditions in the field, or doesn't care he is a poor manager!!! Union or non - union!!!

[washington tramp]

I'm thanking you brother for speaking up when these chicken sh*t mother f*ckers can't stand up for safety and are scared to lose there jobs. SCADA sounds like a major hazard to us. ALWAYS TEST AND GROUND and never rely on your management.

[Patriot]

That should be reported to OSHA. That manager should be down the road. Not his call, I don't know all the facts, but I sure wouldn't let it die! At the very least get signed documentation from those involved. It might come in handy down the road.

[fastlane]

Scada can come in handy in a emergency when you need to have something opened up in a hurry ( if it works ) vs. waiting for someone to physically do the switching.Test and ground everything no matter what. Osha isnt as strong as some guys think,out here in Calif. they just dont have many people that understand electricity in their org. The manager that told that person to close in on that crew should be spoken to(after hours if needed).

[woody]

SCADA...like it or not it's here and it's not gonna go away. Ground all potential areas period. Anything that can come hot should be grounded and all precautions taken. Take everything out of the equation...all known hazards...etc. Don't care to talk too the barehanders...or the rubberglove daredevils that started all this crap. Simply wanna say that...WORK IT HOT...OR GROUND IT DEAD. woody

[NU Limey]

We too in NH have been seeing more and more problems dispatchers tagging wrong lines to crews, re energizing do not reclose sections of line and general miscommuncations. so far no one has been working on a line that was re energized by mistake. Like every one else management never wants to own up to it. They always try to throw the ball back at us claiming its our responsibility to make sure we know where we are and whats going on. Its getting harder to keep looking foward when you have to spend more time looking behind your back.

[Lnemn's Mom]

Definitely, if there is a problem that could cause injury or death, it should be reported to OSHA. Also, it is the duty of all involved, when questions are asked, to answer truthfully. If your job is terminated because you stood up and told the truth about what happened, the loss of your position could be litigated. And actually cost the company more by trying to operate outside of the regulations. Just remember, whenever an individual is injured, or killed, because the safety precautions were ignored, that this could have been you. Your family could be the one who is looking for the truth about what happened. Would you want your co-workers to lie "just to keep their job" or would you want them to be honest and state the facts. Whenever we have the courage to stand up for what is right, then and only then will things begin to change. Remember, the life you save may be your own. Down the line, you could be hoping for your crew members to have the courage to tell the truth, then and only then will OSHA hopefully begin imposing the fines that are needed, that it will cost these companies more not to operate safely. A small fine is nothing to them, but if it is based on what they are letting slide, just to get production, and put everyone's lives on the line, then and only then will they begin to play by the rules. What is your life worth, if its terminated because someone doesn't play by the rules? Would you prefer seeing a fine of $2,000 to $7,000, or would you want to think you gave up time with your family, seeing the little ones grow up, being able to be a parent............ and for that, they will have a fine imposed that is worthy of the infraction. TOGETHER WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

[OLE' SORE KNEES]

Years back when I was on Hi-Line, We had a trouble call at 2:00AM static wire on hi-line burned down hanging by feeder B phase, we tailboarded and figured I would go and get into postion with rubber gloves and boltcutters and get setup to cut down hanging static when dispatcher dropped feeder by scada and heat it back up asap, well when ready the call was made and he dropped feeder, as soon as I put the boltcutter's handle together the lights in the whole neighborhood lit up as it had came back hot,I yelled down and the foreman told me he never called them yet,dispatcher denied it, next day all relays were checked or at least that was what we were told and they came back ok with no relay problems,was told later dispatcher had to physically bang it back in to happen.......who knows and ain't nobody owing up to it anyhow,don't trust it to this day,another example of PPE working..take care watch your back


OLE' SORE KNEES

[thrasher]

I have worked at different Coops that have had working SCADA systems. We have always followed the same rules. Isolate test and ground or work the line as HOT. SCADA doesn't change that. SCADA so far as I know can only work a motorized device. Every place I have worked at the motorized devices are capable of being isolated by manual disconnects. Therefore SCADA should not be capable of energizing a line that the lineman has isolated. This could be different at other companies.
The real worry is if you have a line on one-shot via SCADA and the line trips off. Then its a matter of training for the inside people NOT to re-energize without clearance from the crew.

[A Laska Lineman]

In regards to the SCADA close in, I see three problems. SCADA was not disabled out in the field. No grounds. The dispatcher did not have big enough balls to say "NO". Lucky some one did not get hurt. Question? Was/is the local Saftey Committee aware of this? Dispatcher in training? Reported at the Company saftey meeting? Dispatch Superviser get a letter in file? Some type of action should be taken and noted so that it does not happen again.

[Patriot]

The discussion was that a manager told the dispatcher to close in. Scada is scada, but to have a pencil neck step in and tell the dispatcher to close in on a crew, while no "all clear" all men and equipement in the clear and shorts and grounds removed, came from the people working the outage, is a travesty and the manager should be whacked in the pp!

[woody]

Don't wanna get in the habit of whipping a dead horse...but will if it will prevent a DEAD lineman down the road! Take this situation out of others control... and CONTROL the situation... grounds!... or work it HOT!. Real simple... NEVER rely on others for YOUR safety... especially if their not on your RTW!... or VISION. woody

[billfoster67]

I dragged after that meeting they delegated me to put disconnect knockers on the doors. And I am a lineman, not a door knocker man. That place was a bad dream a lot of egoes, on the managerial side. Young lineman who didn't know how hard men fought for conditions in the 70s and 80s- and they are losing one by one. They are also losing their wage battle. Where utilities are giving bonuses and contracts are getting better nationwide. Right now I am happy. I am back in construction with a great foreman. No one visits us on the right of way- because we are productive and do quality work. I love construction... the utilities are getting way out of control. REAs and Coops, even most Edison properties were all lineman run, management down- except for the Board of Directors and such. Now a secretary can take a two month course and she is staking. These utilities don't get it - the lineman is the epi-center of the utility. As they forget that the rates will go up, due to confusion - lack of knowledge- and the padding of engineers and office people. I remember I worked for Belmont County Co-op in Ohio. 4 girls in the office, the rest of the deptmts were all lineman- material, engineering... etc. Older guys who paid their houses off and sent their kids to college- who didn't need the overtime. They had the cheapest rates in the country.

I wish it would get back to that, but it won't.

I remember we had this bird-dog that was with in Muskegon, MI, engineer and he asked " How we got the wire to stay in the insulator?". Oh my thats our future friends,

[Dougstaz]

I used to work as a staff engineer in the line department of PSE&G of New Jersey's Camden Division - and also had responsibility for "on-call" duty in the dispatch center.

My bosses sent me, an engineer, through line school - and then had me work with crews on a regular basis. I can't tell you guys how valuable that has been to me over the years - mostly in understanding, at least just a little bit, some of what you have to deal with. (I think back then that the management, many of whom came from the lines, really cared about the work, and safety - and made sure I got it too!) I'm not involved in product design for S&C Electric Company - one of my favorite things to tell my designers is "Think about the guy on the line when its midnight, thunder and lightning and cold - how will your design help him do his job better and safer?". Then I make them tell me what they think.

Over the years I've been involved in SCADA system design. I can tell you that, if run right, SCADA can actually enhance safety - by allowing dispatch - or automated controls to deenergize a line quickly when needed.

But - its also absolutely right that there is no substitute for "doing it right". Your companies should have specific tag and release procedures - updated for use with SCADA and automated systems. We had specific procedures written up for how an electronic tag was to be set - and how tags were to be applied in the lines - and they were gospel! But, someone above said it right - either work it as hot; or test, open and ground and work it as dead. Pick one and don't let anyone tell you to shortcut the procedures.

Distribution Automation is great stuff for improving reliability - and giving dispatch a view of what's happening on the line - but its only a tool - and one you have to use with the right safety procedures and precautions.

[billfoster67]

I wish dispatch operations had that point of view. But I bet your temperment and adrenalin doesn't go crazy when there is a snafu, or outages. You go step by step of what needs to be done. Just don't close in, because a crew can't reach you over the radio. Or tell someone to close in. A dispatcher has to have good ice cold nerves, and their bosses also. Human error kills people in this industry.

[Bull Dog]

Its simple you guys we dont let anyone intimidate us to close with out the clearance. If its the CEO especially the ceo we dont do it period. No one is going to make me live the rest of my life knowing i did something that caused a man or several men there lives. To all the power supply men out there i say grow a pair and tell them to do it themselves!