BPL... Broadband over the PowerLine

[CenterPointEX]

ITRI... ITRON

Is anybody out there involved in a Broadband over Powerline BPL project? Just wondered if there were any up and running systems out there yet?

For those of you who don't know, BPL technology is coupling a Radio Frequency signal to the medium & low voltage distribution lines. This is a broadband signal transmitted in a currently unused low bandwith. The system uses capacitive or inductive couplers attached to the power line to induce the signal. These couplers are attached to a modem of sorts mounted on the poles. These modems receive and retransmit the signals. The customer meters on the system are equipped with communications that talk to the modems on the poles which report back to the Utilities main computers. This gives the Utilities real time readings of what is being used. In the past, usage has been reported back to the Utility after the meter reader brings the reading in. With BPL technology, the meters will report outages, power problems etc. back to the Utility before the customers even know. With real time readings Power Plants will be better able to ajust load thus conserving fuel. This technology will also show discrepancies between power generated and power being consumed. Points of loss will manifest themselves, such as power theft, leaky insualtors etc. Saving the Utilities and Consumers Billions of dollars.
Devices such as Capacitors, Load reading stations, Switches etc. can also be fitted with smart devices giving the Utility the ability to Isolate faults, correct power factors, etc. . The possibilties of this technology are revolutionary and mind boggleing.

[BigClive]

They've been talking about data over power for decades, but it never seems to get anywhere. This would probably only benefit the really remote users, since the technicalities of reliably coupling high speed data onto power have proven irksome.

[Squizzy]

I put a post up last year about this. They have been running a trial of 500 or so houses in Tasmania for some time. I can't remember the rest of the details but the system was working as i watched an article on TV about it....

[44kv]

They Have It We Move Some On A Job Up There It Comes Off The Line Through A Box Then Onto The House Service Dont Know How It Works Or How Good It Is Though.

[CenterPointEX]

I know it is out there... a lot of folks are toying with it, trying to make it work. I believe they are playing with it in Houston. I was just wondering about the reliability of working systems if they are out there. What are they using to couple the BPL signal to the Primary? How is it holding up to weather etc.

[lineman61520]

I left Indianapolis Power and Light and there was several top dog meetings on this subject a couple of years ago and I think IPL is getting ready to spend the big bucks to test this on their power lines.

[n_ogden]

The City of Manassas Virginia has a BPL system, pretty gnarly if you ask me.

[CenterPointEX]

The City of Manassas Virginia has a BPL system, pretty gnarly if you ask me. Is it working? Do you know anybody who is involved with the project?

[DuFuss]

I had read somewhere online that PEPCO was putting it in place in some area.

I have been trying to follow BPL for 5 years or so. I've seen it make only little progress, but I can tell you one thing... If they ever perfect it, then power companies are sitting on a gold mine. Of course this could mean good and bad things for us. One our meter readers would be out of a job. With BPL you could read it from the office could even make it so they could disco right on the meter. Now this one is both good and bad. Any breaker could be operated by the office that still had power. Now we should still lock the office out on anything we are working on. Not to mention high speed internet to the last mile that actually can deliver to the last mile.

[OLE' SORE KNEES]

FPL uses fiber-optic in some of thier static overhead wires on the Hi-Line, I hear if they lose the 230kv and the fiber at the same time, they will jump on the fiber 1st., I guess we know what makes more money huh?

[TXSierra01]

TXU Electric Delivery in Dallas is implemented this thing right now! and it aint going to be fun work with. I have only seen the URD installation and it sucks. First there's this deal that clamps on your URD cable behind your concentric and the damn thing weights 9lbs. try plugging an elbow with that at the end of your shotgun stick. Not to mention clearance on your secondary bushings. plus there in also the "box" that sits in the bottom of your enclosure that is just one more thing to deal with, and you need to wire it to your 120 source. Its going to a big pain in the ass!!

[CenterPointEX]

They have a new box that sits outside of the xfmr in its own enclosure... and the new coupler is pretty small... Is the system in Dallas working still? How is the reliability?

[WFO]

. If they ever perfect it, then power companies are sitting on a gold mine. Of course this could mean good and bad things for us. One our meter readers would be out of a job. With BPL you could read it from the office could even make it so they could disco right on the meter.

You don't have to wait for broadband for that. The PLC (power line carrier) AMR systems do that now. Both TXACs and Cannon Technologies can do meter reads, disconnects and re-connects, operate capacitor banks and load control devices.....you name it.

As for BPL, my understanding is that there are serious signal attenuation problems that make it necessary to put a repeater (booster?) every few spans. That might be practical in urban areas, but hey...everybodies already got broadband in urban areas!
Can't see it working in the country....can't see our marketing people giving up on it either just 'cause it ain't practical!

[BigClive]

Meter reads and equipment operation are all fairly low bandwidth actions where a garbled data packet could be repeatedly sent until it got through intact. Bradband Internet for a load of users would require infinitely higher throughput.

Just an observation.

[Roush6]

Hi everyone. I am currently involved in the installation of a BPL pilot system in Marblehead, MA, where I work as a 1st class lineman. We have only installed overhead units so far. Installation is pretty easy...the system consists of collection units, which send packets of information back to our station, and repeater units, which communicate between the collection unit and the subscribers on an asigned secondary crib. So far, we have installed a repeater unit at each XFMR in the pilot sector and operate 2 collection units.

A BPL kit includes a primary coupler, a neutral coupler, a weathertight enclosure, and the appropriate guts...a collector or repeater. The neutral coupler clamps around the neutral, and is connected to a pigtail coming from the enclosure. Next, I hook up the ground for the primary coupler and connect it to it's pigtail. I then hook up the unit 240, and finally I install the primary coupler to the line. ..pretty easy. Our meter department handles the customer installation, which includes a meter adapter that has a weather enclosure for an additional repeater unit. The customer gets a BPL modem and can plug into any outlet in their house to access the net.

I don't know how the BPL system actually works. The rep from the company we are working with wouldn't let us in on the hocus-pocus. The company is Main.net if you are looking to check it out. If I get a chance I'll try to get some pics up of the equipment and a typical installation.

If anyone has any other questions that I can try to answer, ask away!

[CenterPointEX]

Who makes the watertight box with the guts? and Who makes the couplers?

[Roush6]

It's all supplied by the distributor, Main-net. I may be doing 3 more installations tommorrow, depending on the crew assignments. If I do I'll take some pics...

Have a great labor day weekend everyone!

[CenterPointEX]

So the box on the pole has two coax cables comming out of it, One going to the primary and one going to the neutral? Do you feed the boxes with 120v or 240v ? How long are the runs between the repeater boxes? 800ft., a thousand feet? I wonder what the preoccupation with the powerline is? Why not just use a series of wireless routers?

[Roush6]

Sorry for the delay, CP...I need to take some better pictures to explain the system. It's not a coax cable that is connected to the neutral and primary, just a 3 set bundle of 16 guage or smaller. The repeater and collector units are supposed to be spaced 600 ft or less apart, and both are wired 240...which is how they inject the signal to consumers.

[CenterPointEX]

So then the BPL signal is not on the Primary, but rather it is on the secondary? There are some systems out there that put the signal on the Primary. But I have not heard of anyone say they have it working good enough to call it a success.

[NMSA122-G]

AT&T had a court order issued to stop TXU from installing BPL equipment until some safety concerns are addressed. Some of the equipment hangs down a good ways from the primary. AT&T wants to make sure thier employees are not going to be endangered by the money hungry electric company.......

Also TXU does not own all of the poles, so AT&T has some issues with having a potential competitor on thier poles.. Not to mention franchise fees that have not been paid to cities for some time............ Lot of red tape out there........

[Roush6]

Hi again, Centerpoint...The signal is on both the primary and secondaries and the neutral. It's supposedly a smart system, so that if the signal is strong enough it will only us repeaters when needed. I installed a three-phase system about a month ago at the local PD. It's an interesting technology, I just don't know if I'd want to have to deal with it on a daily basis. I like working distribution, and would like to keep focused on that. If I wanted to work on internet systems I'd work for a phone or cable company.

[n_ogden]

http://www.manassascity.org/index.asp?NID=118


They have BPL on top of "Automatic Meter Reading" in their system.

[CenterPointEX]

Hi again, Centerpoint...The signal is on both the primary and secondaries and the neutral. It's supposedly a smart system,... I installed a three-phase system about a month ago at the local PD. It's an interesting technology,. Hows that system holding up Roush?

Is anybody else out there working on BPL or Broadband on Powerline Technology?

For those of you who don't know, BPL technology is coupling a Radio Frequency signal to the medium & low voltage distribution lines. This is a broadband signal transmitted in a currently unused low bandwith. The system uses capacitive or inductive couplers attached to the power line to induce the signal. These couplers are attached to a modem of sorts mounted on the poles. These modems receive and retransmit the signals. The customer meters on the system are equipped with communications that talk to the modems on the poles which report back to the Utilities main computers. This gives the Utilities real time readings of what is being used. In the past, usage has been reported back to the Utility after the meter reader brings the reading in. With BPL technology, the meters will report outages, power problems etc. back to the Utility before the customers even know. With real time readings Power Plants will be better able to ajust load thus conserving fuel. This technology will also show discrepancies between power generated and power being consumed. Points of loss will manifest themselves, such as power theft, leaky insualtors etc. Saving the Utilities and Consumers Billions of dollars.
Devices such as Capacitors, Load reading stations, Switches etc. can also be fitted with smart devices giving the Utility the ability to Isolate faults, correct power factors, etc. . The possibilties of this technology are revolutionary and mind boggleing.
__________________

[leiching]

PPL has two systems in place one is main.net this is on the primary and secondary side. The signal goes through the coils on the transformer into your house. You buy a modem and plug into any outlet in your house for the internet. Problems with the signal braking down the last I knew. The other system is wireless and on the primary only. You hang devise right off the primary. You buy a wireless card for your computer and get the signal from outside. The one test company was getting 17mbs on the wireless system.

[CenterPointEX]

How long has the system been operational Leich? Have you worked on it yourself?

[leiching]

PPL started it in 2001, don't really know if the still have it. Last I heard they do. No I did not work on it myself that was my Management try. Spent a lot of time with the guys installing all the equipment. Also spent time with the company heads trying to make these two systems work.

[CenterPointEX]

I have heard they have a pilot in Houston and it seems to be very promising. The Meters they are using are made by a company called ITRON. If this thing takes off that ITRON Stock will be worth a mint as all the meters in the nation would be changed out to these meters.

[CenterPointEX]

The ITRON stock is climbing thru the roof... They say it will climb well over a hundred in the next six months... Since December it has gone from fourty seven to nintey four. I'm thinking its the next MicroSoft... The handle on NYSE is ITRI .

[surfinlineman]

SDGE has a test program running, we did some switching out of components for them last year, but the eggheads wouldn't give up much details, it seems they are testing on URD, primary side for transmission and secondary for delivery of data to customers.

[CenterPointEX]

What city are they testing the stuff in Surf?

How's the surf? I wanted to learn last trip out but I never got me a board... If I make a trip back out think ya can teach me to surf?..

Any how did you work on the project yourself? Was IBM involved? Itron? Corinex?

The Itron stock just bumped $104... months ahead of schedule... I'm telling ya get on board, this is a micro soft type venture that will change the world... These meters are amazing in their capability. Check them out at NYSE.com then get a quote for ITRI, then click on the news.

Another thing driving ITRON is the shortage of resources urging companies to bite the bullet and make the investment to get real time readings. These real time readings will cut labor needs by bringing to light discrepancies in power generated and power being used. This alone will save billions. It will also save labor in meter reading and support. The system also reports outages before customers call, making response times to power problems, load problems & outages quicker, thus shorter periods of revenue loss due to outages... Load management etc... "Coupled with Broad Band on Powerline" "BPL" technology the amount of money that can be saved by implementing this system is mind boggling. So just like the MicroSoft evolution, this sky is the limit for this technology.


Itron has bought, and is I think, in the process of buying more factory space to crank out these meters. So while they didn't make much of a profit last year because of investments in production capacity, Itron is set to launch itself.

[CenterPointEX]

For those of you who don't know, BPL technology is coupling a Radio Frequency signal to the medium & low voltage distribution lines. This is a broadband signal transmitted in a currently unused low bandwith. The system uses capacitive or inductive couplers attached to the power line to induce the signal. These couplers are attached to a modem of sorts mounted on the poles. These modems receive and retransmit the signals. The customer meters on the system are equipped with communications that talk to the modems on the poles which report back to the Utilities main computers. This gives the Utilities real time readings of what is being used. In the past, usage has been reported back to the Utility after the meter reader brings the reading in. With BPL technology, the meters will report outages, power problems etc. back to the Utility before the customers even know. With real time readings Power Plants will be better able to ajust load thus conserving fuel. This technology will also show discrepancies between power generated and power being consumed. Points of loss will manifest themselves, such as power theft, leaky insualtors etc. Saving the Utilities and Consumers Billions of dollars.
Devices such as Capacitors, Load reading stations, Switches etc. can also be fitted with smart devices giving the Utility the ability to Isolate faults, correct power factors, etc. . The possibilties of this technology are revolutionary and mind boggleing.

[woodwalker]

CP.....get with Stu Wilson at CNP, rumor has it he is the man with the plan with the BPL technology........:) From everything else I've heard, the guy installing it on the contractor side is one of the best in the business as well!!!!!!!

Good see ya the other night man......PM you're contact info when you have time. I'm trying to move forward with what I talked to you about.

[CenterPointEX]

ITRI Itron broke the $109 mark today... I'm telling ya this is technology ain't looking back. Every meter in the United States will be swapped out to an automated meter over the next twenty years... I take that back... every meter in the world... Espacially the less remote and backward countries as this technology will give real time data on remote and hard to reach customers... Itron has the lead to the point that they have made Itron share the technology with a couple others in order to prevent a monopoly... I am conviced this is a world changer like Windows... The folks inside the company who were given shares at $14 are starting to second guess their decisions to sell at 50, 90, or a $100...

[CenterPointEX]

Holy Friggin Toledo... Itron bumped $113 today... Micro Soft look out...

ITRI, Itron, BPL, Broadband on Powerline, AMS Automated Metering Systems (AMS) Meters , Intelligent Grid... The Wave of the future is now...

[CenterPointEX]

Bad News Itron dropped to $80 ... I figured it would drop but several things combined to force it that low. Like I said Itron is ramping up production capacity which cost money. Now the third quarter sales announcement showed down. This news combined with the NYSE drop caused computer trading to take it down hard.

Good News... At $80 it is a ripe for a quick turn around... hang in there if you are holding... Buy if you have the capitol.

[CenterPointEX]

Still it goes on... looking back at the days leading up to the announcement of the third quarter numbers, there were some big players dumping big lots cashing in on what they knew... I should have seen the signs... anyhow I am seeing the same big lot spikes as those guys are getting back in. They know the score and have made a killing... So anyhow... get you some more cause this stuff ain't going away... It's back to $86 today with heavy buying going on...

Broadband on Power Line is still in R&D mode but it is poised to explode into the market place in the very near term... Utilities don't have a choice but to buy in...

[CenterPointEX]

ITRI Stock
Itron is back to $97... I won't say I told you so. I think the news is breaking about the success in Houston. The shining Star of their automation project has been the ITRON meters. They have been installed on electric and gas meters in the trial. I'm thinking they are gonna get the go ahead to go gangbusters with them... and if they get the go ahead in Houston they will get the nod nation wide if not world wide.

[mainline]

BPL is all well and good , but when it starts to get rid of good paying union jobs maybe we shouldn't be cheerleading so strongly for it. Where I work meter readers are an important part of the company especially during storms when they act as bird dogs for non-local crews. When they go by-by so does a lot of knowledge plus many helpful hands to get stock and find difficult locations. I think utilities are in for a rude surprise when they prune yet another layer of employees from our companies. So here is to innovation, but with reservations when it effects jobs.

[lewy222]

I started out as a meter reader, worked my way through the bs and am a lineman now. There is nothing better during a storm than to have someone with a pickup in tow able to run ahead and check things out or run back and get something. I think it is kind of ironic and sad that technology is going to (and in many cases already has) destroy so many of the great jobs that pioneered it. I have a great deal of respect for meter readers because I did the job. I know how important they are in customer relations, I know they turn in lots of potential future trouble calls and save the customers outages. I've taken payments as a meter reader. I've saved many people from having dead batteries by knocking on the door and telling them their lights were on. It's a job that SOMEONE should do.

[mainline]

amen to that meter readers are often invaluable to us lineman. I was not a meter reader, but I still have a great deal of respect. They have helped us find places we would have had a hard time finding, and have saved us by bringing material out to remote locations. Soon the job will probably disappear, and the customer will be the loser. More profit for the utilities like they need more.

[Bull Dog]

Meter readers are history. We converted all our meters to amr 5yrs ago. Meter readers were offered another job or retirement if old enough. I totally agree we need more people but utility's don't care about that. Technology is taking over nothing we can do. Who they gonna call?

[australiantroubleman]

Our company has used power line carrier technology for many years mainly on transmission voltages for protection intertripping data transmission ,signaling and even a independent internal telephone system . these systems are now considered obsolete and are being removed and replaced.
The technology is proven though it had wave traps and other devices installed to keep the carrier frequencies between transmtting and receiving devices only.
We have trialed some modern broadband systems at distribution level with varying degrees of success but it has not been taken up yet in Sydney Australia

[lewy222]

I understand that its a lost fight for the meter readers but I do feel very bad for the few guys in the meter shop right now that really want to work on the dock and probably wont get there. I think a couple of them would do really well. We havnt had very good luck getting our new lineman from outside contractors.

[australiantroubleman]

The demise of meter readers will haunt them in the end , meter readers do much more than just read meters they carry out checks of tampering and vandal damage.
The new generation meters are "tamperproof" and can report damage or interference but you cannot beat having a human being from the company checking the equipment regulary.

Once customers get used to never seeing anyone from the company theft and tampering will become more of a problem plus switchboard access will become a problem for us as customers dont have to worry anymore about regular access to the metering equipment.

[CenterPointEX]

The beauty of these Itron Meters is that they report in that they have been tampered with. A meter that drops off the computer will be noted. When It comes back online it will contact the computer and report back in. Should a meter be running in reverse which was done in the past byflipping it upside down, this will be reported. So any tampering with the meter will draw an immediate inspection order and someone will be sent into the field to investigate... So tampering with an Itron meter will draw immediate attention. For this reason these meters have had a trial in a high crime area and have produced encourageing results.

Itron, ITRI, BPL, Broad Band on PowerLine, Corinex, Stock, power insustry,

[CenterPointEX]

I saw a report on Kiplinger.com and in the Washington Post about these Itron meters... It almost seems as if they have been reading my stuff on here on powerlineman... They reported the same story with all the home work done and the details filled in. Bottom line they concured with my evaluation... the stock is back up to near $100 dollars from $80 a few months ago... Kiplinger even used my synopsis that Itron is the MicroSoft of the single digits, 2008 and beyond... the metering World is in transition... There is still time to get in on the bottom floor... I still believe that eventually every meter in the country will be replaced by Itrons AMI metering system... a few years ago Itron was trading under ten dollars... look now... Itron signed 10 new Utility contracts last month...

For all you Bulls out there... this stock has an international footprint therefor is not dollar Dependant or economy driven... This metering system is a no brainer for Utilities and thus a necessity... not unlike the fuel they put in their generators... as we speak board chairmen all over the country are discussing how they are gonna come up with the funds to implement this system..

ITRI, Itron, BPL, Broadband on Powerline, AMS Automated Metering Systems (AMS) Meters , Intelligent Grid... The Wave of the future is now.

"Itron is a Micro Soft potential investment" analogy... You heard it first here on PowerLineman.com... Stay tuned... March 2008

[Fiberglass Cowboy]

We have BPL here on our system in Lee's Summit,MO.(AQUILA). Not many places though. Only a few select neighborhoods. I don't know much about it. It's been up and running for maybe 5 or 6 or 7 years? The first time i saw it i had no idea what i was looking at. I had it explained to me,but never thought much about it after that. The company i work for now (Aquila,inc.) was the parent company of a small cable company called Everestt Cable or something like that. They were based out of Johnson County Kansas,just south of Kansas City. They got ahold of this stuff back then and wanted to do some test trials with it. They had their people put it together and install it,and our guys made all of the connections on the primary. As far as i know the stuff still works,however the cable company was sold a few years back to a parent company out of New York. No idea who owns the Bpl now,or what the hell to do if it fails or catches fire,etc.... Hope this helps.

[Trbl639]

Entergy Corp is running tests on the BPL system in select areas...........don't know how well it is working, I agree, It is the Future!!!!

[CenterPointEX]

Just curious Cowboy... I saw an article about the Houston Project. It looks like it is making progress. The article said they plan to install two million of the smart meters beginning in 09 subject to the approval of the Texas Public Utilities Comission...
This is a link to the article. http://community.investopedia.com/ne...435312052.aspx (http://community.investopedia.com/news/BusinessWire/20080514/613406435312052.aspx)

[ZapCzar]

Here’s a little something to think about with AMI meters. We have all AMI meters now and during storm restoration from IKE they told us not to switch feeds. No feeding from other feeders or changing feeds at all because it would screw-up billing on the AMI meters. There were areas that were out for days longer than they had to be because of this. Matter of fact we had some on and they told us to put the feed back to normal putting them back in the dark. :mad:

[wtdoor67]

Here’s a little something to think about with AMI meters. We have all AMI meters now and during storm restoration from IKE they told us not to switch feeds. No feeding from other feeders or changing feeds at all because it would screw-up billing on the AMI meters. There were areas that were out for days longer than they had to be because of this. Matter of fact we had some on and they told us to put the feed back to normal putting them back in the dark. :mad:


Someone ought to complain to the Corp. Commission or who ever handles those matters in Texas. That simply is not right. They need a fix on this and we all know if the general public had this explained to them they would be pissed.

[loodvig]

Here’s a little something to think about with AMI meters. We have all AMI meters now and during storm restoration from IKE they told us not to switch feeds. No feeding from other feeders or changing feeds at all because it would screw-up billing on the AMI meters. There were areas that were out for days longer than they had to be because of this. Matter of fact we had some on and they told us to put the feed back to normal putting them back in the dark. :mad:

OK I'll ask a dumb question. WTF is a AMI meter? Is it the auto read meters? If so just why does a different feeder make a difference?

[mainline]

Loodwig AMI is automated metering. CMP has been looking at it hard for a couple of years. They recently pulled the proposal from consideration before the Public Utilities Comission. We have been told that it is only a matter of time though. It seems that they are biding their time with our recent purchase by Iberdrola. Bangor Hydro went this route a number of years ago with a grant from the Feds. It was great they were bought by a Canadian company, then the Feds gave them a loan that enabled them to lay off most of their meter readers. If the Grid hasn't gone to this yet I'm sure they will soon. It allows them to cut staffing. Only too late will they realize all of the value the meter staff brings other than reading meters.

[RadonHuffer]

As a ham radio operater with thousands of dollars invested into equipment I completly oppose any more BPL experiments.

BPL throws all kinds of harmful interference into the HF band. We cannot do emergency communications and health and welfare traffic as well with this kind of RF noise transmitting all over the place.:mad:

It sounds like a helocopter hovering in your Icom HF rig complete with special antenna.

Let the free market run the high speed lines to these rural homes, It will create jobs.

[rcdallas]

Automated Meters are pretty nice... they can tell you about outages, people that decide to steal power, blinks on the line, etc...

Whenever we swap a phase on a pot we have to call into the AMR guy so he can "re-channel" it, other wise it'll show up powered down.

[ZapCzar]

Automated Meters are pretty nice... they can tell you about outages, people that decide to steal power, blinks on the line, etc...

Whenever we swap a phase on a pot we have to call into the AMR guy so he can "re-channel" it, other wise it'll show up powered down.

Say rcdallas have ya'lls customer found the easy way yet to beat the meter after its been sleeved for non pay? Jumper cables from the weatherhead pass the meter into the breaker box . I dont know how many I have found just riding by, by the way I'm selling jumper cables cheap:).. Bad part is now that they have done away with the meter readers nobody is eyeballing the houses meters... :(

[CenterPointEX]

Cell & RF Technology have replaced the BPL,
but the ITRON component is still a workhorse.