Hendrix Vise Top Insulator Update

[fastlane]

Just a quick heads up to anyone using this product out here in the wild west.I know some of you guys liked it but our Co. finally had the balls to shut it down.Turns out that the thing is a G.O. 95 infraction ( needs tie wire with bare wire ).A whole lot of people let this one slip through without doing their homework. It probably works good back east on short spans of covered wire but it doesnt match up very well out here on long spans with all of our bare conductor. New and improved is good only if it is improved.Thanks to everyone that took the time to get back to me, all that info. forced management to investigate further.

[Hemingray Insulators]

Tramplineman-
I remember the earlier thread, and the issue was the line was droping, by sliding thru the clamp, say if a wire was cut, then the span would slide through the clamp and end up on the ground, with bare wire. I think he said earlier that they were using them on like 500' spans or something.

[fastlane]

Wire slipping through,no valid side strain rating in the jaws,bolts backing out, insulator melts at 248 degrees F.,very flammable,expensive but otherwise it was bitchin.I dont think the women running up and down our beaches are G.O.95 infractions but come on out and see for yourself Tramplineman.

[boom-grown]

Are you still talking about these things? You sir are the biggest idiot that has ever come out of SDGE. Their is a whole big world of linework out there and San Diego did not invent it. Please explain how SD and you plan on changing out all clamp top style insulators(transmission and distribution). GO95 infraction huh,... I like the guy that said "what is'nt?"..... why not do actual work instead of a bunch of BS CMP? At least you can keep a job doing what you do best there......NOTHING. And its starting to show with those top notch rejects, I mean apes you are training.(no offense to the few good ones, at least they drag up when they finish up) GO HUMP A GOAT RAMONA BOY

[The Green Box]

Here we go again.......................Amen Boom Grown

To the dead horse beater (fastlane) take your homegrown blinders off please, and quit bitching about a decent product............

p.s The demise of SDG&E is coming, dur to the homegrowns of course, LMFAO PEACE!

[fastlane]

How can you make someone that thinks they are smarter than the P.U.C., engineering dept.,safety dept. standards dept.and numerous linemen and companies back east understand that this equipment is a bad idea out here? If boom-grown and the green box are so sure they are right then they shouldnt have much problem getting SDGE to re-instate the Vise Top. Its real easy to talk trash but it does take a little more effort to get something like this done.I was able to prove my point and the Co. responded now its time for you guys that think Im wrong to either get off your dead asses and do something about it or quit crying.Its not your big mouths that scare me,its the fact that you guys refuse to recognize the potential danger.Im trying to make linework as safe as possible for everyone regardless of whose little egos get bruised.Do us all a favor, quit using up space in this safety meeting for your petty tantrums.

[thrasher]

Fastlane:
I hadn't been paying a lot of attention to this topic since we don't use the vise grip tops but something did catch my eye. I am familiar with NESC, ANSI, RUS and have even heard of ISO standards (though we don't use them). My question is what the heck is this G.O. 95 that you say the vise grips tops don't meet? Is this a SDGE standard or a CA standard or what? I have never heard of this standard.

[fastlane]

I keep forgeting that the first w in www stands for world. Its General Order No. 95 Public Utilities Commission of the State of California. Its my understanding that the plastic vise jaws are the infraction,it has to either be tied in(tie wire or preform) or solidly clamped in with metal clamp tops.The Hendrix VT doesnt hold all spans of wire(proven fact). Plastic and bare wire are a bad combo.

[Trampbag]

Let me tell you, SDG&E is a different world. They build like they are expecting the worst ice storm ever, and San Diego hasn’t had ice since the last ice age. They have heavy x-arms then they double them on the back side on the deadends, called heavy doubles and man they are heavy. Then they use these plastic Hendrix insulators that wouldn’t hold the conductor (638 MCM or something) up if it where to break, the conductor would slide through for blocks.

SDG&E doesn’t call anything by it normal name. They call J-bars (on underground) cable taps, Junction boxes are called hand holes, they say 800 instead of Roger or 10-4. And it goes on and on. It’s a different world there.

And for anyone who has never worked in California you ain’t seen nothing as anal as GO95. It was originally written as a standard by the telegraph and it is done by committee even today. Every tramp that ever went to California thinks he will run into the state of the art system. NAWT. It is a 1940’s style construction standard and has some really f***ed up ideas, like high voltage signs in yellow on the x-arms – mandatory! And if they blow off in the wind have to be replaced even if it means covering up and climbing through 4 other circuits to tack on a HIGH on one side of the arm. It makes a lot of money for the contractor hands though.

[Trampbag]

The only place I have run into in my tramping where secondary is still run on x-arms is in CA. Everyone else removed pole steps years ago because of a fall hazard, except CA where they are being installed on all poles.

A drive north on Pacific Coast Highway past all those EXPENSIVE shacks on the beach and look at the poles feeding them. The ugliest construction anyone wants to see, and it’s brand new!

240 volt 3 phase banks with lighting cans went out with the dinosaurs, but not in California.

All thanks to GO95. Looks to me like it was designed by a railway. And, to boot, GO95 is open to interpretations by anyone it seems. As a contractor lineman it seems any inspector from the utility, whether that’s SDG&E, PG&E, LA DWP or So. Cal Edison can and often will come along and gig you on something and call it a GO95 infraction, even though you’ve had it passed many times before.

I stand corrected though; telecommunications had nothing to do with GO95.

Working under GO95 is kinda like working with a platypus, though, is it a duck or a beaver or is it something else entirely? And how can a mammal lay eggs??

[Trampbag]

Waste of time, yes. But does it pay well, HELL YES.

Long live the California PUC and the GO95.

Great place for a northern tramp to make superb winter wages in the sun then head to Alaska for the midnight sun, good wages and astounding fishing.

Hear that, young Hem'? You were asking whether utility or tramping was better.

:cool:

[fastlane]

Never said I was a big fan of GO95,it was simply the route I had to take to get rid of the Vise Top.And yes there is a lot of crap out here that we dont agree with but the only way to make it better is to stick around long enough to make changes.Its easy to complain ,but doing something about it takes work.Im not sure exactly what the boomers(traveling linemen) are looking for in life and Im not sure if they know either but what ever it is I hope they find it.For a family man there is nothing better than anchoring down where you are happy and puttin in for the long haul.

Youve taken your shots at SDGE and Calif. and thats fair enough,but the reason I started this was to warn people about the problems with that Vise Top ins.Thanks for backing me up Trampbag,when the wire breaks it does run through the other VT insulators and thats almost never good.

ps(obviuosly you were not here long enough to freeze your ass off in our mountains in the winter,its not the next ice age but the equipment does get loaded up pretty good.Next time through,try getting out of the city)

[thrasher]

Okay I now get the idea of the GO 95. I trust you'll forgive me for saying so but I think I'll stick out here on the East Coast. Yah we have hurricanes and ice storms and floods, but I've never had to deal with earthquakes, mudslides or 10,000 acre forest fires. Around here a fire that burns 200 acres is very rare. And I can now add to the list that I don't have politicians writing electrical code.

[Trampbag]

I actually prefer working in IB,OB, PB, MB, La Jolla, Del Mar, Carlsbad and Ocean Beach or as far east as El Cajon or Ramona to Julian in the winter, mind you Julian is nice to go for a glass of wine and a slice of apple pie anytime. I didn’t like breaking ice in the puddles at Valley Centre. Actually the only place I like ice is in my drink.

San Diego was fun and lucrative for me and my family. I’m a family man, three kids and the same wife of 30 years, actually all of California was great while I was there and my kids enjoyed the hell out of the beaches and the mountains right up to Lake Tahoe.

Tramps just move around a bit, some more than others, and I, for one, aren’t looking for a darn thing other than the experience of new areas. As Johnny Cash sings “I’ve Been Everywhere, Man.” (Well I haven’t been everywhere, yet, but I have been on that dusty road to Winnemucca as that song starts out.) My kids have experienced castles in Scotland and England, the Inner Hebrides where I dragged them though all the distilleries on Islay. Two have been in Brazil (one speaks Portuguese fluently) and Central America and all carry two passports. Even though all are now in their 20’s all still travel on their own whenever they get the chance. By the way, I never once missed a Christmas at home with them. That ain’t half bad for a “boomer”.

Sorry if I offended anyone’s sensibilities by poking fun at GO95, but I’m pretty sure you’ll get over it if I did.

I also made some good wages because of a hurricane in the east. They can get pretty hairy, that’s for sure.

[topgroove]

I also made some good wages because of a hurricane in the east. They can get pretty hairy, that’s for sure.
hey Tramp, know why hurricanes are usually named after women... cause when they come they're wild and wet but when they leave they take your house and car!

[fastlane]

Trampbag,except for all that world traveling,our biographies are the same.Ive never known of kids that that didnt throw a fit when being pulled away from their friends and school but I guess yours must have that traveling blood in them.

Im sure you offended just about every lineman in Calif.(at least the ones that take pride in their work)but since we all are so thick skinned,no damage was done.Just remember,out here our job is to build it not design it.The jerk off engineers are the ones that dick everything up.In my modest traveling (vacations) Ive seen some real rats nest electric construction in other states that is far worse than any of the crap we have locally.I think quality work changes crew to crew and district to district even in the same company.My crew makes alot of revisions to the job in order to clean it up ,make it safe,and generally work smarter.Although I dont mind pissing off management,sometimes they can force construction standards on us that we think are stupid.The HENDRIX VISE TOP INSULATOR was one of them but facts and common sense finally got rid of that piece of shit.There are still plenty of them up in the air and no they dont blow up or melt on contact but all I can say is dont trust them.

If you tramps(boomers)ever find a more perfect yearround climate for doing linework let me know.Its a little late for me but the lads out here might like to know.In San Diego County you can dune buggy in the desert, snow board in the mountains and surf in the ocean all in the same day.

[Trampbag]

There is no place on earth that has a better climate, year round, or more access to sports, winter and summer, as well as shopping, what’s not available in Sun Diego is certainly 2 hours north, and entertainment. The only problem with Sun Diego is if you don’t already own a piece of property forget it, unless you win the lottery.

Other than that San Diego is :cool:

[fastlane]

Thats no lie.Its takes 600 to get something decent.Those of us that have stayed put have been rewarded nicely though.It seems that about 1/3 of our boomers are buying homes but you better have a room mate or a wife with a good job.Maybe work with TRAMPLINEMAN for a few years(he seems to be knocking it down pretty good) then come back and get your foot in the door.

[billfoster67]

Worked for Southern California Edison for a year, had a great foreman. We just built it for the next guy... didn't get that huge book out. Just took care of the man behind us. He knew his stuff. Could do a forty step switching plan in his head in five minutes. Amazing guy.

Worked construction: climbed poles old and rotten with belly button tags that were from 1911 and 1921. We use to put those beautiful new arms and new glass on those old ragged poles. Never understood the pole steps... just let the apes put those dum things in.

NESC is what the rest of the world goes by. Its common sense and lineman friendly because you have little pictures for every rule. Not that GO 95 crap that is put together by legislators and bureaucrats. And they can no longer publish it... since its the size of telephone book. If you ask for it- they give you a CD now. Its ridiculous. Where is common sense??????

[boom-grown]

When has the snow ever stuck more then 3 days in julian? And when has that #4 acsr ever got loaded? Just admit you haven't seen shit cuz you've never left that hick town and thats all you know. At least I could respect you if you had the balls to man up. Sure you say these insulators are dangerous, but still stringing in open wire secondary isn't? You know it goes on and I do to because we had to do it when I was there. Sad thing is I can laugh at it now and you can't. I would love to go get some pie and a nice glass of wine with you next time I'm visiting. Maybe we can get some Dudleys bread also. Just think, some day I'll come back and be able to still laugh at the way sdge does things and it will still bother you.LONG LIVE BOOMERS

[Trampbag]

Did anyone understand what the hell this guys point is??? :confused:

[NJlineman55]

Im at a loss my brother!!!!

[fastlane]

Boom-grown's harmless,alot of bark but no bite.He seems to have a bit of a hard-on for SDGEand or me.Let me try to set him straight,SDGEdoesnt have any #4acsr,tons of #2 but most stuff in the hills is awac anyway.Just because he didnt see it doesnt mean it doesnt happen,Palomar,Laguna,Vulcanand Cuyamacha Mtns.can and do get
loaded up in the winter even if it only is for 3 days (but can be weeks).I havent installed pole steps or new open wire secondary since the late 80's.I did 22yrs in the city before coming to this hick town in 2000 so I have seen some shit anyway.Dont really care whether or not he respects me but I do wish he would respect the potential problems the Hendrix VT can create. In the end, we are all brothers so LONG LIVE EVERYONE.

[Bell Wrench]

We usually throw a hot line clamp on the opposite side of the vise top if we're cutting down a span so it won't pull through.

[fastlane]

Yep,in a controlled situation you can do that and few other things to keep the wire up(only if the manufacturer or your Co. or someone else has warned you ahead of time)otherwise it will most likely be slipping through.If youre lucky you might just screw up the sag in the next couple spans(when coming up on it).Its the unforseen trouble jobs where this insulator can turn what would normally be just one span of wire down into several and I cant imagine why anyone would think thats OK.
(FYI-once bare wire is pulled through or runs through even just a little,those jaws lose most of their holding strength so you basically have wire resting on an insulator just waiting to run,real nice for next guy huh?)

[matt 1245]

WELL IT'S NICE TO SEE THAT YOU GUYS AT SDG&E ARE ON TOP OF THINGS.
BUT HOW ARE YOUR AP's GETING,SMARTER THAN YOU. THEIR TOPEN OUT AND GOING TO THE OUTSIDE. SMARTEST MOVE A PERSON COULD MAKE, JUST ASK ERIN

[fastlane]

Well Matt 1245,I think a lineman should go where the grass is greener for him.When I was coming up this place was hard to beat,we did plenty of cut-overs,re-conductors,conversions and the like.A guy could actually buy a home on just his income.But yes, things have changed.Ive tried to get this Co.to start floating a 'heavy' crew around the districts to do the big jobs so the younger guys could get some experience but the focus right now(and maybe forever)is on maintenance.I always tell the new linemen to think about booming out while they are young and very marketable but alot of guys are rooted deep right here.Anyway the Co. now has the new apprentices signing a contract to stay on for years or pay back $10,000 + for training.which Im sure their next employer would cough up if they wanted people bad enough but it does make it a little bit harder to leave.

[matt 1245]

I Worked For Southern When I Was A Ap. In The Nortal Yard, The Weather Was Alsome. But Carlsbad Seemed To To The Place To Work, On The Beach. I Been Working With Aron Humfres He Went Though Sdg&e Apprenticeship Programe. He's A Good Hand.

[77liner]

Hey Fast lane Are you serious about the company making the new apps sign a contract that requires them to pay if they drag after they top out? : :

[dave948]

Fastlane

Use them on Hendrix cable and you'll love them. If you don't think they clamp tight put you finger in one and crank down. (you'll get the winter off!)

[Trampbag]

Hey Fast lane Are you serious about the company making the new apps sign a contract that requires them to pay if they drag after they top out? : :






Contracts making apes pay 7 to 10 thousand or more if they drag before 3 years or more after topping out are common. Apes with Local 1245 and 47 are faced with sanctions of $7,500 ( I believe) if they leave the contractors and go to a utility. After all, if the contractors and hands, with deductions from wages, pay for the training of apprentices then the apprentice should have some responsibility to repay the “debt” by working several years in the jurisdiction or repay, in cash, some of the costs.

I believe I have heard similar situations in other places with the contractor/Local IBEW joint apprenticeships. It would be prudent for utilities to do the same. Considering SDG&E has had so many problems recruiting hands, paying considerable bonuses for one to sign on and even a bonus to anyone who referred a hand who signed on, they should protect themselves by getting the apes to sign contracts.

And before anyone jumps all over me for denying the freedom of movement of hands, the IBEW constitution used to, and may still do, charge a member the difference of initiation fees, if the initiation fees are higher than they were when the apprentice joined, if he draws a traveler within 5 years of joining. Upon depositing my first traveler I paid over $200 on the occasion. $200 in 1976 was a lot of money.

[fastlane]

matt 1245,my Co. is losing alot of good hands because they are more concerned about upper management income than the wages of the people that keep the meters spinning,our loss your gain.
77liner,serious as a fart in church.Depending on when a guy leaves,I think it can be as high as $15,000 ( no laughing matter ).
dave948,we dont have Hendrix cable out here.I know you guys have had good luck back east with the Vise Top for many years,but trust me when I say its a real piece of shit with long spans of bare wire.
Anyone that wants facts and figures on all the testing we did on the Hendrix Vise Top Insulator,just send me a message.

[NJlineman55]

Once again like it has been stated many times on this blog, vise tops are not made for bare wire so when your company brought them in for use they obviously didn't read the manufacturers recommended use. Stop beating a dead horse dude we get it and anyone that uses vise tops knows that they are not made for bare wire, period.

[Trampbag]

Amen, brother, Amen.

[boom-grown]

I'm back for more fastlane. Every reason you have given me over the last few months you have gone back on. First they burned when you held them in a torch. Yes a lot of stuff does, but that cant be the reason because you still use a poly insulator now. Second you said clamp tops were GO95 infractions, but as soon as we questioned that you went back on that because you'd have to rebuild the whole transmission grid in california. Now you say metal clamp jaws are ok but, plastic aren't because of holding strength. I have a hard time believing the GO95 specifys the details on torque ratings. Please show me where you found this info. Riddle me this, I have seen these used on spans of wire where the deadend has let loose and the wire ran very little.Heres the catch though, it was sure nice to just sleeve the wire and bring it back up to sag and not replace any broken arms, bent pins or cracked pole tops. Just had to work one pole and then went home. I use these daily here on Edison property and they are very safe to use, especially off the wood. If it is a hard angle though we dont use them.Some SDGE hands have to be the most hard headed individuals I have ever worked with and half the time they don't know why their doing it for. Every hand from other utilities and outside construction who have hired there have for the most part just tried to make it better. And when hands like you continue to not be open minded it is frustrating and it hurts the company and the guys as a whole. Thanks

[fastlane]

Does boom-grown make the picture any clearer for you two,NJlineman55 and Trampbag?There are plenty of people and places that use the VT with bare wire and thats who Im trying to warn.The reps. flew out from Hendrix to convince us that is ok to use that ins. with bare wire(hows the focus now 55 and Bag?)but after we proved that its the first thing at conductor level to ignite(fires are a problem out here)and that it failed miserably at holding up bare wire those guys couldnt catch that plane back to New Hampshire fast enough.SDGE soon there-after pulled them from the shelves.Why do you think they did that boom-grown?Maybe just to make me look good and themselves bad?Or is it possible that a large Co. with a huge contract and even bigger egos were forced to do something because of the facts?Find a practice yard,string acouple short spans (bare)use a dyno to see where the VTs pull through vs porcelain and top ties(the pin will bend before the top tie slips).Try hanging some hand coils,500 to 1000 ft worth,after you have pulled up your practice spans again,say around 400ft lbs,then cut down the span on the other side of the insulator(again 1 VT and 1 top tie)and let me know how well that plastic ins.does.Id rather beat a dead horse than hear about a dead lineman.

[Trampbag]

Excuse me, but if you read the posts of Aug. 15th and 16th on this thread I backed you up about the problems with Hendrix insulators designed for plastic insulated Hendrix wire used with heavy bare wire. They don’t hold bare wire up and will run for blocks if a dead end is lost. Many members on this site are agreeing with you.

My comment “Amen, brother, amen” was in agreement with NJlineman55 about flogging this subject to death.

Congrats on being instrumental in showing SDG&E the light. You won!!

Why are you continuing the fight???

[fastlane]

I worry about young guys getting the wrong impression from people like boom-grown.I know what that ins. is good for and you and just about everyone back east do too but it seems pretty important to take on the challenges in this case.If my buddy would just start private messaging me ,I would love to give this keyboard and topic a rest.

[boom-grown]

If fires are a problem like you say, then WHY ARE YOU STILL USING A POLY TYPE INSULATOR?

Also your tests don't prove anything because hanging a coil of wire right at the insulator or within the test span for your so called long span/weight isn't a true test. Of course its gonna run with all that weight so close. Its basic, Why not build an actual span that your talking about? I know you would have different results. I have seen it up here in real conditions and your claims are just that, claims backed up by lack of evidence. Be open minded for 6 months and see how many problems you actually have. You can't tell me its better to crack a pole top and arm then loose sag in a line. Or is it??? :confused:

[fastlane]

It was the nylon jaws in the VT that started to ignite first. They kept burning which started the plastic ins. body on fire.The plastic liquifies in about 5 seconds under a torch but sdge doesnt care about that right now.Fire experts have told us that this ins. will melt in a brush fire.Torch everything else at the pole top even the wood and the ins. is the first to go.We had failures in the field the first couple weeks we used them(wire pulling through) and thats what started the whole thing.They are lightweight and easy to install,you wont believe me but we wanted them to work,they just didnt.
Screwing up a little sag is no big,its when the hot wire comes down that normally would stay up is the problem.Im not talking about ripping a bunch of stuff down.Now a question for you boom-grown,why wont you say anything about all these guys that claim you shouldnt use bare wire with the VT?