I'm puzzled?

[dbrown20]

I work for Pub. Serv. Co. of Ok. and they are a part of AEP. Have been for a few years. When this first started to happen the BA said he thought AEP would be tough but more honest to deal with. We were formerly called Central Southwest, which consisted of 2 IBEW outfits and 2 rat outfits in Texas. When the BA made that remark, I thought, boy what a naive person you are buddy. The way it's working now is they are infiltrating PSO with plenty of those Texas rat managers. Kinda like the Hispanics taking over Oklahoma. They already got Texas. All these rat managers can think of is make the people do more with less help and glove those higher voltages.

Now the latest damn thing, and I can't figure this out concerns 4 KV,(4160). They want to kill it when they can or work it off a Baker board. I guess they think it's dangerous as hell. Up to now it was legal to glove off the pole. On the other hand they want 2 man "crews" to work primary up to 34.5KV with one man in the bucket and one on the ground. Gonna give everyone training to glove 34.5KV. Another bunch of crap to stick in the bin along with your 20 KV gloves,sleeves, harness etc.

My question is. Does anyone have a clue as to what the deal is? They want barricading of buckets while working primary giving you the impression that this stuff is dangerous as hell but at the same time they want one man to work primary alone in the bucket. On the other hand they want to work a rather benign voltage, 4KV, which has been worked from conception from the pole to be worked from a Baker board. I don't get it.

The only clue I have had so far is that the Baker board thing is to accomodate Davis Elliot in Tulsa as they are required to work a lot of 4 KV in back alleys and don't have enough people that can handle gloving from the pole.
I have heard of no accidents involving 4KV within this co. in a long time. The last one I remember was actually an IBEW contractor several years ago. Any thoughts out there on this subject?

dbrown20

[Patriot]

Maybe the poeple making these descisions don't have a clue. They all might be listening to one person who has an agenda. I see it here also. Most of management, especially the ones that have came out of the ranks, have been out so long, or were actually only in the hooks a few years, they just roll with upper managements whims. It is deffinately a changing work place.

Remember when you used to have 5 or 6 man crews to set two or three poles. Then we got good equipment, better quality, bigger. We could do 7 or 8 poles a day with a 3 or 4 man crew. Well we are inching back to 1 or 2 poles with all the rules and regulations. We are going backwards. And contractors are replacing company employees by doing more work cheaper. One good thing, the contractor needs hands to, a guy just has to adapt.

I have a hard time encourageing anyone to enter the trade.

[dog38]

I know exactly whats going on Dee Davis is trying to break the union out here in western divsion. We have one of those rat bastards frome texas here on our dock now. He didnt even understand why we worked two men in the primary.Dee
Davis is a peace of sh!t. His good ole boy system goes clear up to bartlesville. None of this sh!t there wanting us to do out here is going on in tulsa. We already have apes teaching apes here and at hobart. Davis eliot crews are having lots of flash accidents in the tulsa area also they have the same problem we do not enough REAL journeyman. How many guys have you seen come from old wtu and cpnl that were lineman. Hell down there they have apes running services trucks that never had or never will be on a crew. I would like to here Dee say safety without saying CIP in the same breath just one time. He is goddless puke of a man.

[billfoster67]

Conditions in CA went to shit over time. Hopefully 47 and 1245 leadership will get the control of what was the best condition state in the union, twenty years ago. Unionism is getting better in the state.
ONce you had to stick all except 4kv. It was a state law just like OR, WA, ID. You use to have to go to a hot stick school to work in CA. Now its an open gold mine- they are at book 4 because their is no hands. They lost their conditions- there is a lot of rumors- Contractors went to the state house and such... I have seen some great Texas hands, 66 hands. Now the state is full of them, but a lot of them were good union hands that accept CA as their home. Every yard you see very few CA hands, a lot of tramps.
Now white ticket old Irby and Red Simpson hands are there. California lineman are going to have watch them... remember their is evaluation with a white ticket. Someone can be the best single phase tap lineman in the world, but CA is very different. Amps are very high. The rating on the cans are 200 percent- need a loadbuster for everything. It takes a few months apprenticeship as a lineman to understand GO 95 specs and the hazards. Its not a walk in the park. Stay safe down there!!! And keep it union- keep your conditions!!!

[electric squirrel]

Thank you Mr. Foster! You said a bunch.Things in Ca.are gravy as far as money goes, and work, the books are empty right now or at least its pretty much a walk thru at the hall. I have had to work with a ton of tramps (some great ,some not worth a f$@k!) Bill Smith out of Houston was one of the greatest men I had the HONOR of working under as an app.( Thanks Bill!) There are tons of white tickets out here right now, some of them dont have a clue to linework,how am I as an 6 step ape supposed to learn anything from a guy that never went thru an appretice program? I consider myself luckier than some ape's I worked at two utility's before I went outside, so I think i got a little experience as what to watch out for, some apes out here worked at Mcdonalds before they got into the program, how do they know what to look for to stay out of harms way?!?The ex rat white ticket guys are screwing things up out here! I just had a crew with 2 JL's , me as the hot ape, everyday I had to tell one of them what we had to do! How to do it, and why? He didnt have a clue to g.o. 95 or our rules out here,gloveing 33 , link sticks, working the phz while Iam on the neut!Crap like that ! I know we've all done it and got away with it but the rules state that we shall not! Pushing the envelope seems to be a everyday thing with the white ticket guys,is it just me or is it like that in other parts of the country? E.S.

[dog38]

I think my last post here pissed off some people in managment. One of those refrigerator/trouble shooters that is sds down in hobart copied it off and sent it to that goddless puke I was talking about whom compramises safety and everything else for his own personal gain! I also heard several hands in tulsa drug up and headed to colorado to work construction. These rats out here are running a lot of good hands off. When I say rat I mean refrigerator repairman from texas that are now suck @$$ supervisors who couldnt cut it in the field.
Once you started sucking @$$ you never do get that taste out of your mouth.

The company would be better off letting IBEW run this place because lower and mid managment damn sure dont know how to . Unless your frig or hot water heater goes those guys dont have a clue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lwlineman]

I have been in powerline const. for 15 years , I started at the bottom and work my way to the top. I worked for a contractor for 10 years, REA for 4 years, and now I'm to contracting again. There may be some of those guys out there that don't know s!##, but we are not all that way. I promise you I could keep up with the best of you union boys. May it be climbing,gloving hot primary of the wood,or even working junction poles hot with one man in the bucket. I know there are some idiots out there, because i have had to work with them before. The comment about 1 man in the bucket falls back to if thats all you got, adapt, adjust, overcome, do your job or go home! It has been a while since I got to work with a good lineman, maybe a few of ya'll should come down here to TEXAS and give it a try.

[dog38]

Wont Even Post A Decent Profile.

[dbrown20]

Gloving off the wood. Spoken like a true rat. I recall an old ex rat I worked with once. He had worked with a shirt tail contractor in Texas. Once he mentioned for coverup on dead end bells that he had a grunt go to a nearby grocery store and bring back some card board boxes for dead end coverup. "Just to kind of keep it away from us". He was serious. I believed him, too.

Knew another one once who worked in Ok. for a small rat contractor. He said on his crew theyhad 3 or 4 rubber line hose. That was all. They did mostly REC work.

Knew one once who worked for a small oil field contractor. They hired a kid just out of High School. On his first day 2 linemen were up a pole changing out the arm or something. They just tagged the phases out from the pole with hot line rope. The kid, his first day on the job, walked into one phase with his head and was killed. Very sad. True stories. There are many like this throughout this country. Sometimes you begin to think this is a very modern country etc. but crap like this resembles Mexico or some other third world country. These companies who allow these contractors to work for them and kill innocent kids will have a day of reckoning someday I hope. dbrown20

[44kv]

why do yall call contractors rats? I think thats kinda messed up! I know you union boys get training and shit like that and us that work for contractors have to deal with on the job training. well there are some out there that are shit but there are alot that are good!! I got a couple of guys at shaw eds that would walk circles around some union people. All ive ever heard on here is that contractors are un safe, well we have to cover the whole pole up(arms, pole,tx,lines,neu,telephone,cable tv) just to put a guy stick in!!! well thats pretty damn safe. I have no problem with the union one day i might be, but untill then im a contractor trying to make a living just like anybody else. I hear about this brother hood that lineman have but more and more it seems that the union have a brotherhood and the contractors have a brotherhood. We all have the same goal and thats to keep the lights on. Somebody on here made the statement that all contractor should get off there property,well most places are using contractors more and more. Someday you union boys could be one of us "rats" as you put it!!!!

[dbrown20]

Don't be to offended by the term. It is just a term used by union people to refer to non-union contractors and or companies. There are even some non-union utility companies.

On the average a non-union contractor or company is more likely to trample on your rights and to fudge on safety. There are actually some pretty good rat outfits, but in the long run they do not measure up to union rules. Let the wrong person get in charge at a non-unon outfit and there's not much you can do about it. With a union co. at least you have some rights and can sometime right the wrongs.

There are some pretty bad union outfits and sometimes members may fight for years before anything is done. At least they can try, but with a non-union outfit they are usually fired. It's all a matter of degree. Some of the rights and safety of non-union outfits are sometimes the result of pressures put upon them and the influence of the unions in their area.

Here in Oklahoma there are only 2 companies and 1 muni. that pay anywhere near the scale of Pub. Serv. Co. of Ok. and 2 of them are very careful to keep their Journeyman scale just a little bit ahead of PSO. This I feel, is due to the presence of the IBEW. As a matter of fact the vast majority of PSO hands received their experience at non-union entities.

The term Rat is just an expression of frustration coming from union hands to vent their resentment of places that get by with their ability to operate without a union. Let unions disappear and you would see a reappearance of the suffering experienced many years ago.

We have hands on our property where I work that came from the non-union part of AEP. Here it is the former WTU (West Texas Utilities) and CP&L (Central Power and Light). Talk to these guys and you will hear horror tales of treatment and conditions that would cause the average guy to quit on the spot. Ask them why and they reply that in the vastness of Texas that most think it is that way everywhere and they know no better. If we could just educate everone on union matters the whole industry would become union. However the union sometimes shoot themselves in the foot and alienate people right and left. It's a long story, but don't be to offended by the term Rat. dbrown20

[Orgnizdlbr]

If we could just educate everone on union matters the whole industry would become union. However the union sometimes shoot themselves in the foot and alienate people right and left. It's a long story, but don't be to offended by the term Rat. dbrown20

Well said brother!!

[scammy]

to me it dont matter if your union or contractor,,,your life and familys well being is just as important as mine...no need to work primary off the pole ,,use a truck or bakers board. so what if a costomer is out for awhile,,,do you think they care if you get smoked? not no but f### no. ,,,wake up and smell the coffey boys,,,,,its way past time to take care of ourselves,,,,,,,,scammy,,,,,,by the way 4 kv is more dangerous than 12 kv..scammy

[CenterPointEX]

I have seen some great Texas hands, 66 hands. Now the state is full of them, but a lot of them were good union hands that accept CA as their home. Every yard you see very few CA hands, a lot of tramps.
Thanks for the Kudos... I enjoyed working out there last year. The boys here at Local 66 just passed a four year contract at the end of which we will be making a whopping $28 and change? So I reckon we will continue to come your way if we want to have any hope of making a decent living... It only took me three months out there to make a years pay for Houston. I spent half a year out there last year and I thought I landed in Disney Land... I felt guilty for a while for not pounding myself in the ground every day to keep my job... but I got over it. I did some gloving of the 4kv out there off the pole... actually quite a bit of it. With the no humidity and all it didn't seem like that big of a deal. I was wary of it at first being from Houston and all but after watching some Cal hands sling it around like secondaries I lost my fear of it... Maybe a bad thing. You still got a good thing going there, gaurd it!

P.S Back here in Houston the contractors are gloving 34.5 out of the bucket... Back in the day that was unheard of, but se la vee... I have seen 34.5 fires and I know that anyone within four feet of such a fire will get melted...

[CenterPointEX]

If we could just educate everone on union matters the whole industry would become union. However the union sometimes shoot themselves in the foot and alienate people right and left. Amen DBrown.............

[scammy]

If all america was Union in Linework....dude, the power would be out.....
sorry, but you know that's the truth in this day and age


not true dude;I have a vested intrest in my costomers when the phone rings I go in ,dont matter if its 2am at 4 degrees or whatever........like Ive said early on dont have a beef with contractors ,,,,,,,, but what I do see is a git er done mentallity with contractors ,,,,,,,,even if it means leaving a booby trap for me later .screw the mob mentallaty and all that ,,,,,,,do a job and do it right and leave it good for the next guy,,,,,,it may be you son doing it 20 years from now ,,,,,scammy

[igloo64]

We get the get the jobs at the bottom of the barrel also so don't think you are the only one. We just get better conditions and as far as money is concerned, its never enough. I DO IT BECAUSE I WANT AND DONT CRY ABOUT IT. SO LICK MY BALLS AND HOPE WE DONT MEET! DONT WORRY IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN SWAMP RAT SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PK270]

As DBrown said, nice job of alienating people Igloo

[igloo64]

Go to this hall sign the books your qualfied for and come work for me. I wont turn anyone down as long as they're qualified. $34.00 per hour 50 Hours minimum per week.

[wstxpwr]

Iv'e been reading this for a while and i'm sick of the attitude that if you ain't union you ain't shit. It's bullshit that we are unsafe, untrained and don't do as good a job. We all do the same job .... WE KEEP THE LIGHTS ON. And we all do it in as safe a manner as we can. I work for the same company as some of you and I know the rules that we all must follow. I also know for a fact that our apps. go through the SAME EXACT training as yours do, union or not! Also since when did 4kv become something that we don't need to treat with respect. Remember all it takes is 1 milliamp and your supervisor could be pulling up to your house with bad news, God forbid your family ever has to go through that. Union or not we are all brothers on the pole. Why can't we get along like it?

[dbrown20]

Iv'e been reading this for a while and i'm sick of the attitude that if you ain't union you ain't shit. It's bullshit that we are unsafe, untrained and don't do as good a job. We all do the same job .... WE KEEP THE LIGHTS ON. And we all do it in as safe a manner as we can. I work for the same company as some of you and I know the rules that we all must follow. I also know for a fact that our apps. go through the SAME EXACT training as yours do, union or not! Also since when did 4kv become something that we don't need to treat with respect. Remember all it takes is 1 milliamp and your supervisor could be pulling up to your house with bad news, God forbid your family ever has to go through that. Union or not we are all brothers on the pole. Why can't we get along like it?


We keep telling you that there are good hands and bad hands in both Union and non-Union shops. What we are trying to get across to you is that for the most part Union hands will be treated better then non-Union. A little better pay and perhaps better working conditions. You evidently work for the former WTU part of AEP. Well I know several people who used to work for them and they think they are much happier and treated with more consideration because we are Union. Now you can argue this until you are blue in the face but any place that pays their hands different pay scales just because they are better liked by management etc. is not a good place to work. Any place that fires a person for speaking his mind now and then is not a good place to work. Any place that allows their foremans to treat the working hands like dogs is not a good place to work. All these things have been alluded to by hands from WTU and CP&L and I believe them. If you want to work in such a place when there are Union places where you don't have to put up with crap then stay there. dbrown20

[wstxpwr]

My mistake if thats what your getting at. I don't know of the treatment that you are talking about. I came to work here after the merger. So I really don't know much about it before hand, except for a short stint at power plant in the 80's. To my knowledge that kind of treatment does not go on here now. When I came to work here I came in as a app. D, no experience in distribution at all. Before the merger it would have probably been whoever the supp. knew. However now it is a completly fair hiring practice. If you don't make the cut , you don't get the job! The "good ol'e boy" days are gone!! After 4 1/2 years I'm almost through with app. school. And it just burns me when people imply that we are not as safe or as well trained as someone from a union shop.Truth of the matter is, your only as safe as you want to be no matter who you are or where your from. As you all know this is a life you've gotta love or leave, no in between. I happen to love it, just wish I'd started my career 15 years earlier. Anyway stay safe up there in PSO land.

[KingRat]

We keep telling you that there are good hands and bad hands in both Union and non-Union shops. What we are trying to get across to you is that for the most part Union hands will be treated better then non-Union. A little better pay and perhaps better working conditions. You evidently work for the former WTU part of AEP. Well I know several people who used to work for them and they think they are much happier and treated with more consideration because we are Union. Now you can argue this until you are blue in the face but any place that pays their hands different pay scales just because they are better liked by management etc. is not a good place to work. Any place that fires a person for speaking his mind now and then is not a good place to work. Any place that allows their foremans to treat the working hands like dogs is not a good place to work. All these things have been alluded to by hands from WTU and CP&L and I believe them. If you want to work in such a place when there are Union places where you don't have to put up with crap then stay there. dbrown20union hands are treated better? thats crap as you call it, you work for an employment agency which you pay a fee- plain and simple. the outside contractor that your subbed to is paying your wages and benefits, you should be thanking him. union and non getting along- never happen, and then what fun would that be anyway :D

[dbrown20]

union hands are treated better? thats crap as you call it, you work for an employment agency which you pay a fee- plain and simple. the outside contractor that your subbed to is paying your wages and benefits, you should be thanking him. union and non getting along- never happen, and then what fun would that be anyway :D

Speak thereof of your background. I have worked almost all aspects of linework concerning Union and non-Union. I have worked for non-Union contractors. Started that way. I have worked for non-Union utilities. I have worked for Union contractors. I have worked for Union utilities. I have been a member of 2 different unions in the trade. I do believe I have a small insight whereas I speak. How about you? dbrown20 Hello Bill. Ain't it great?

[Stinger]

Do not be puzzeled. I worked non-union for many years. I will not attack the level of capability betweeen union and non union hands. there good and bad on both sides. As I have said in some postings before, I wish somebody had told me the financial benifets of being union instead of putting me down all the time simply because I was non-union. This is where the rubber meets the road in the sense of taking care of your family and your self. The company I used to work for, your JL pay was based whether your boss liked you or not, or how many years you had with the company, stuff like that. If your pay did not arrive in the mail on time it was "well wait awhile see if shows up" Having to work an extra day because your holiday pay does not count towards your 40. having money deducted from your pay for breaking a piece of equipment that was already broke when they sent it to you. Being brow beat because you won't work in the rain. Working storm work and not being paid 11/2 until you get your 40. Having vaction days taken away from you. being told that on thursday at the end of your 40 you have to go to weekend job to help get another job caught up and if you refuse maybe you should reconsider your employment with this company. Working 14 hour days and given 1/2 hour for lunch, no Breaks in between. There are many companies out there like this. With the union I have a voice in my work conditions. I am well compensated for knowledge, skills and ability. I do not worry about being threatend with my job over issues. It does not cost me out of pocket money for my health and welfare benifiets. I get good annuity. And what does my union require of me? A days work for a days pay with safe quality production. I do beleive that most linemen I know, are dedicated to the job they love, why not be well compensated for it. It is one of the most rewarding jobs. We have a job that when the end of the day arrives, we can go home and know that what we do day-in and day-out makes a difference in peoples lives. So the bottom line if we all stuck together as a union nation wide, we would all benifiet. I am proud of being union.

[dbrown20]

Stinger, you have summed it all up. Thanks brother. dbrown20. Have a nice day Bill.

These have been nice discussions and I appreciate them, however my original thread here was to figure out the 4KV thing in PSO. The no working it off the pole question. Oh well, how we digress. dbrown20

[wstxpwr]

I agree Stinger. I know that there must be alot of benefits to being union. But that doesn't change the fact that alot of union boys still think there shit doesn't stink just because they have a union card. Not all non-union companies or non-union parts of companies are bad places to work. I love what I do and where I do it. And I make a good living. I don't know of any of the things you mentioned going on down here with my company but I'm sure it happens at other companies. And thats not right. I guess I'm just lucky to work where I do. Maybe this place is the exception to non-union shops, I don't know. Like I said before union or not we all do the same thing with a passion. We do something that everyone else in the world can't understand and would never dream of trying. All they can do is stand back and look up in awe as we do what we have spent so many years training to do in a safe manner. As a soon to be JL I still look up in AWE.
As Always STAY SAFE.

[Bull Dog]

I respect what your tell us Stinger. Thats why ive been trying to tell the young fellows on this site to go to the union hall first. Now some right a way think its beacuse we hate non union. Thats not the case we are trying to warn the new guys before they fall in the same trap as u did. Far as contractor v utility who gives a crap we all can do the job whats imortant is the contractor and utility is union. If some one tells you hes worked non union and its great dont eat his shit sadwich.

[KingRat]

I agree Stinger. I know that there must be alot of benefits to being union. But that doesn't change the fact that alot of union boys still think there shit doesn't stink just because they have a union card. Not all non-union companies or non-union parts of companies are bad places to work. I love what I do and where I do it. And I make a good living. I don't know of any of the things you mentioned going on down here with my company but I'm sure it happens at other companies. And thats not right. I guess I'm just lucky to work where I do. Maybe this place is the exception to non-union shops, I don't know. Like I said before union or not we all do the same thing with a passion. We do something that everyone else in the world can't understand and would never dream of trying. All they can do is stand back and look up in awe as we do what we have spent so many years training to do in a safe manner. As a soon to be JL I still look up in AWE.
As Always STAY SAFE.There are not any benefits to being union unless of course you cant cut it with a non-union outfit, I have worked in a union shop and are currently working non-union by choice. There are a lot of small shops across the country that are great places to work union or non. We have the freedom of choice, dont begrade somebody because their not in your club.

[wstxpwr]

There are not any benefits to being union unless of course you cant cut it with a non-union outfit, I have worked in a union shop and are currently working non-union by choice. There are a lot of small shops across the country that are great places to work union or non. We have the freedom of choice, dont begrade somebody because their not in your club.

Thats what I've Been trying to say KingRat. Thats what alot of guys try to act like. That being a lineman is an exclusive club open only to those who carry a union card. And if you don't carry one you somehow don't measure up.

[old horseman]

dbrown was talking about managers. Let me start by saying I was a rat working with with some good hands. I pissed a GF off and got laid off. I ? his work practices. I went to the Hall and and was giving a white ticket. Since then I have been lucky enough to have earned my JL ticket (just learning). For all those non unoin lineman, Union is the way to go. the IBEW was started by a lineman. The IBEW does'nt pass out JL tickets like discount store cards you have to work to prove that your safe and can do the job.
dbrown was talking about managers breaking down conditions. The bottom line is managers get paid a salary and earn bonuses for output or whatever goals mangement sets for them. Someone else hit the nail on the head, they are trying to break the unoin. Both contractor and utility reprsentation. They contract out to non union outfits knowing that these guys will work for less money or more hourly wage and no benifits. They know that rats will work rain or shine because they have know body watching thier backs. Non union hands are forced to do things that would get a union hand brought up on charges in thier local. Mangement knows if these guys don't work they don't get paid. They walk all over non union lineman because they can. All lineman should become organized because we all share a common goal (arrive home every nite safe and well paid for the work we do).
P.S. I work for a contractor on National Grid property and we get all the shit jobs. Know disrespect to Grid hands they're just not staffed to to do that type work and keep thier sysytem up and running