Ape Lineman from ticketed Pipefitter, need advice

[billfoster67]

I am working with a first step apprentice who joined our trade, because he wanted to be close to home. He is working construction, waiting for a chance for a local utility opening. He still holds a card as a pipe fitter, and kept in his sock- worked rat. I don't know how he got into our apprenticeship. When the first question at mine was do you belong to any other any other union. According to the IBEW constitution, your not aloud to hold two tickets... and you need a release from the other union that there is no work in the jurisdiction.

Second of all he is not a good hand. Compared to the other apprentices, he is totally shovel shy- doesn't pick this work up easy. Disrespectful to lineman. Hardheaded. And you see other crews with apprentices with great attitudes, with families, travelling to work. He gives up when work is hard. Had a moment with him, told him to move some slack to where the transformer is going be, blew me off, and gave me a "screw you" look. The 55 year old lineman running off the equipment, jumped off too do what I asked him to do. I went apesh@t. And jumped in the trench and did what had to be done.

I am easygoing. But that burned my tail. I am going to treat him sub-human. He is here for the money. His integrity to be union hand is already answered. He is a totally a me-me boy. Its hard he has wife and kids, but I am going to write a bad evaluation. There are tons of young men that would love his spot, tons of illegal mexican who would dig a three foot trench from AK to Mexico for the money he is making. And I can even get this kid to move 2" of dirt.

Should I go to my BA about holding two tickets. Working rat. And he'll forward it to the Apprenticeship Board. I am asking you all, hopefully AK lineman is reading this.

[electric squirrel]

Run his ass off!!!!! There are plenty of good hard working apes out there. We dont need another " just in it for the money ,till' a light company job opens up so I can be close to home" fucker taking up space. Lots of ape's have been away from home and they had to play the hand they were dealt! I lost a million dollar piece of land and a long term relationship. I am almost ready to top out, just a few months, I sure as hell dont want to wast my time teaching some jackass the skills Ive learned over the last 3 yrs to some sorry ass that has a bad attitude! :mad: Why in the hell would a J.L. waste five minutes.......CUT HIM IN THE CLEAR!!!! E.S.

[Trampbag]

I’m trying to find my IBEW constitution and will later, but I’m not sure if it specifically says that a member cannot hold two, or more, tickets or belong to more than 1 union. I know a number of linemen who have served an apprenticeship in another trade prior to serving an apprenticeship as a lineman and many of those worked non-union jobs at that other trade. Usually they become linemen to make more money and that is a “me” thing. I also know of a number of members who hold both electrician and lineman certification. The only limitation that I am aware of for these members is that they can only sign one book or the other, not both at the same time.

As far as belonging to another union I myself have done it when tramping. When I was in Europe I joined the union there and remained an IBEW member. When I left Europe I requested and received an honorary withdrawal from them. It has never been considered a violation to my knowledge. I just considered it as “dobie dues” or working dues.

If there is a violation of the IBEW constitution and a member is aware of that violation he/she is required to prefer charges against the offending member. Charges simply mean the LU will investigate the matter to see if there is a violation of the constitution and evidence enough to proceed with a trial board. Charges in themselves are not considered a mark against a union member. I have been charged under the constitution a number of times but have never been found in violation.

As to the first step apprentice not being a good hand you should write it as you see it and then request he be removed from your supervision and placed with another journeyman. If he continues his bad attitude with other tradesmen then it is time for the apprenticeship committee, if that’s how your area operates, to review this apprentice and handle it accordingly, and if that means removing him from the apprenticeship program, so be it. Not everyone is cut out to be a lineman and it should be recognised early in the apprenticeship, before there are a lot of resources expended and wasted. I’ve seen some apprentices make it to sixth step and find no one thinks they are capable of being a tradesman and never has, but it is far too late to bounce them from the program. Now you have either a Journeyman who is a horrible tradesman or someone who walks away from the trade and wasted an apprenticeship that someone else could have had and been a credit to the trade.

[billfoster67]

Through past experience, we had a grunt that held two tickets. One for the laborer's and one with us. The hall didn't know about it. If are affiliated with the AFL-CIO, and you have good reason- better rate, bettering your opportunity- or if there is no work in the jurisdiction. You have to chose one ticket. He was put off the job for having two tickets. I have seen iron workers white ticket with us to tie rebar at subs, and operate crane, and put together steel because we were short manpower. I have seen electricians sign book 4 if we were short lineman.

A union spent 4 years of training on this man, he is only thirty years old. We have oilfields everywhere and oil platforms everywhere in the ocean. He took that training and worked rat so he could have a ten minute drive home from a non-union outfit, and be on the union books. I don't care what trade you are. That gets me sick to my stomach.

My stepfather was a pipefitter worked 9 months a year, travelled most of it: California, Texas, Pennsylvania... he built blast furnaces for mills. He coached my little league team, saw my football games. We knew what he did. The company gave him a plane ticket home every fifth week to be home for two.

I am on two sides of the fence. I was fed and bed by pipefitting. And I make my living as a lineman. To me pipefitting is a great trade. But I have travelled more as a lineman than as my stepfather as a pipefitter.

My point is if you just topped out as a lineman and you just change your mind to another profession, because you are waiting for a position out of the power company... Don't you think the people that trained you, spent money on your training, and you bail... doesn't have a say. Don't you think another hardworking man would love to have the opportunity to be a pipefitter or a lineman. He took a spot in a trade...and he is taking a spot in another trade. Where I was from there was a five year wait to get in the pipefitting apprenticeship. I was in that line after the Army, it was three blocks long, I didn't get in even though the hall was named after my stepfather.

You know it takes a long time to get an apprentice to make money for a company, and to be a competent lineman for the union. Neca pays half and we pay half. Also you are relying on that apprentice to become productive- so when you retire that NEBF doesn't dry up for you.

He is a weird dude, he thinks its a threat that he says he is going back to pipefitting. If I hear it, He gets a taxi cab ride to the show up and I don't want to see him again.

[77liner]

FLUSH HIS ASS NOW. WE DONT NEED HIM IN THIS TRADE :mad:

[dogleg]

I have just looked throught the constitution and I have not found anything about someone carrying 2 tickets. But I have heard that you are not suppose too!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Trampbag]

Something like that may have existed at one time. The IBEW constitution constantly changes. Every convention, and the 37th is early next month, can and usually does amend the constitution. That was why I was going to check my constitution, but I have to wait till Monday to get a current copy.

I have been embarrassed before when I had an out of date copy. And so, billfoster67, I would consider carefully how you handle your problem apprentice because you may end up facing charges yourself under the IBEW constitution. There is a section that describes harming a brother financially.

Also you could get your company sued for wrongful dismissal. :eek:

[Budda]

Get rid of him..he is just a waste of air..to me it sounds like he taking advantage of you and trying to milk the brotherhood. I would go to the BA for sure.

[billfoster67]

When I started this trade. You filled a retiree's spot. You took a lot of abuse to learn and to show the men you wanted this trade. First step apprentice- lineman were GOD! I used to hand dig the six foot hole and have the pole framed while the lineman were spreading. I used to get a lot of sh%T if the pole wasn't ready. Now we are like soft. Maybe its the manpower issue... I don't know. This trade is in my blood not my paycheck. I am just tired of the kids that want the paycheck.

Talk back to a lineman, disregard a lineman... you had your last paycheck in your hand in ten minutes.

What happened in the last ten years. How has it changed. We are going backwards in our safety. Now we have dispatches from the hall...climbing lineman... I thought that was a standard.

I am being honest, Climbing school with AlBAT was tough. We would start with 40 apprentices and end up with half that. We would be on our hooks all day. We had ropes with us all the time... and tie knots at a moments notice when an instructor told us to. If we didn't we climbed again. We warmed up with 6 unders 6 overs, over a circle of six poles. If we didn't use our sliding d rings, we had to hold hammers in our hands til we knew how to use our belts and hooks. It wasn't abuse- it was to weed out those who didn't take this trade seriously.

Lineman were Gods as an ape!!! You worked directly under them. They showed you how to frame. Showed you how to dig a hole. And expected it to get done. No talking back unless, they were totally out of hand- and the BA would show up to the job if there was just abuse.

Now BAs don't check tickets anymore. When they show up its in golf apparell. I had a great BA, Dan Dade- and I heard he is with AlBAT or the international. He was the only BA that did what a BA was suppose to do, visit jobs, talk with everyone if this apprentice was going to make it. Talk with the hands if the foreman was job nervous screamer. Safety check the trailers and equipment. He sacrificed a lot of his life salting the non union. Worked like a dog, even when his wife had cancer. He is my hero. He is why I work like a dog and follow the traditions that the men in my old local did before me- German Joe, Dan, the Squirrel.

Now its about lawyers. Got to wear that hard hat when your backing up a truck. Got to wear the harness rigging a crane when there is no tie off. No common sense anymore. Got to wear those safety glasses when its s frog choker rain... and you can't see. Got to wear a hard hat and safety glasses when your trying to train 35o copper on to paddles on a 1000 kv can and your underneath it in a four by four hole. You have to sign inches of forms giving every right a way, any form of liability goes on you, and they expect it to be done in ten minutes. I just sign President's names now- its getting so ridiculous. The office girls don't even look at the paperwork you sign.

I miss common sense. I look back at my apprenticeship, and you had a lot of screamers- a lot of guys that gave you a lot of sh!t- but they wanted a product that would benefit the local, the union, and a competent hardworking lineman. Not prima donnas- just men that could get the job done in a safe productive manner. Men that had this trade in their blood.

[Trampbag]

And I bet when you went to grade school you walked all the way, through 4 ½ feet of snow, up hill both ways! Barefoot because you couldn't afford shoes!

[Budda]

You know there is a new breed of lineman..some may call them asphalt lineman.. some may call them pussies

I was working on a job out of l.u. 42, and when it came to climbing some sticks. 2 journeyman refused to climb 55'. They said I'm a bucket lineman. I told them it is line work. so they grabbed their tramp bag and headed out.

It is just me or is this happening everwhere.

[billfoster67]

Trampbag thats how it was.

The BA showed up every week to every jobsite checked on tickets, talked to the men.

Every union meeting in 71 they deducted hours if you missed a union meeting as an apprentice.

ALBAT is an excellent school. Ask around they will tell you- you really had to want this trade to make through three weeks there. It was like basic training. Clean the showers, Clean the toilets, make the beds and climb all day. There was no whining. Blisters would last for years. Ask anyone in that part of the country. We were all friends for life... the guys I went to school with. And you had to sleep with a rope, walk around with a rope. Because it wasn't taking a course but finishing something that was hard. And I hope its still that way!!!!

I hope 71 is still that way. I hope ALBAT is still the way it was.

NO BS HERE. Break you down and build you up!

[igloo64]

There Is A Bunch Of Disrespectful Bunch Of Bucket Babies Wanabees Out There . The Only Way To Get Rid Of Them Is To Shit Can Them Right Away. They Dont Deserve Second Chances So Dont Give Them One. They Will Hurt Someone And We All Know It. Cut Him In The Clear It Might Save Your Life Or Mine.

[billfoster67]

Talked to the ape. Told him if your camping for the utility- your not getting any experience. We just are doing URD backbones. And URD taps. Basically making a hole throwing pipe in and pulling wire. Doesn't take brain surgery. On the question he wants to be at home for his family- told him your going to be throwing pipe in ditch your whole apprenticeship- and you better start making plans to work other places. Because you wont be a competent journeyman unless you work other places.

As far as the blowoff, He thought the foreman was his boss. He didn't know I was his boss. He thought I was his co-worker. Little does he know if we had one more pout attack or incident, he was going to get his last paycheck.

Told him this is not a job but a trade. Where people depend on eachother. If its a job- he can go flip burgers or run the frier.

He understood where I came from. And His attitude is adjusted. He got on this site. And found the feed back. Thank all you gentleman for showing him the light, :D

[edski104]

the only rule about holding 2 tickets is that you have to belong to different unions. you can't belong to to locals in the same union or any such thing. but you can belong to the IBEW and to the pipefitters,or hell anyone else for that matter. lots of men in boston belong to the IBEW and to the UWUA at the same time.that way when they drag the power co. and go back out in the world they already have their tickets. :D

[matt 1245]

Seed Him Here To So-cal, Me And My Pole Partner Will Take Care Of The Rest

Local 47 Outside Constructoin

[Trampbag]

I love the way us union hands act so “union”. Rats don’t even threaten like this.

I would expect just that out of a 47 hand. It kinda fits. Things gotta little more abusive when 1245 lost the turf. Funny, I didn’t think it would.

But then Rodzilla had a lot to do with the attitude of a lot of hands. Is that where you learned it Matt1245?

[matt 1245]

You Tell Me This, Would You Have An Apprentice That Works Like That.no Drive,not Willing To Carry His Wight, Not Me.

I Am No Friend Of Rod Or Curts, But As An Ap I Spent A Year With Them, Hated Every Min Of It To. But I Had On Choice I Had To Hustle Everyday.

And It Sounds Like You Didn't Last Ot Long With Them
"been Turned Around Have Ya"

Staeded With 1245 Just Moved My Ticket Last Mounth

[Trampbag]

What I am saying is that we belong to a union and the talk here is certainly not the kind that should be coming out of any hand who believes in the union.

You don’t know this ape, you only know what billfoster67 said about him, and billfoster67 was wrong. There is nothing in the constitution making it a violation for an IBEW member to belong to another union and hold another trade qualification. It is not a violation for a member of the IBEW to hold 2 or more electrical qualifications either such as electrician and lineman but most local union bylaws do not allow a member to sign more than one book at a time. This is not carte blanche as I have belonged to locals where unemployed members are allowed to keep their names on the books at home but allowed to sign other local’s books or even work outside their local’s jurisdiction so they can return home when work becomes available.

I actually only met Rodzilla a couple of times. I wasn’t impressed. I preferred not to work for H&M because of the safety problems, and we all know how bad they were a couple of years ago when H&M was on the verge of closing shop in California. After they were kicked out of SDG&E area So Cal Edison was getting very close to doing the same for the same reasons. If that had happened San Dimas would have shut its gate.

As for Local 47 there were definite changes when they took over from Local 1245, and few were, in my opinion only, beneficial.

The simple fact that seniority does not exist in the California construction local halls is contrary to the constitution of the IBEW. This leaves it wide open to abuse by the foremen and that exists in abundance and increased when Local 47 took over the jurisdiction. And so I am not the least surprised to hear a comment like that to come out of a hand that obviously served apprenticeship in 1245 and now works in 47 with H&M.

You need to read the constitution. Do you have a copy? If not go to the Riverside dispatch office an aquire one. They're free!

Just an observation.

[matt 1245]

Will I'am "glad" To Here You Have Not Worked In My Local In A While
Because Rod Got Firerd From H&m About Three Years Ago,

Local 47 & 1245 New Agrement Mirrer Each Other, I See No Difrance From Back Then To Now. Just $2 Less A Mounth In Dues

And About That Formen Abuse Thing You Mentioned. You Have A Ticket Don't Be Scared To Use It " I'am Not"

[Trampbag]

Oh, I was there when Rodzilla had that revolt of foremen at H&M, lad. Diversified was his next stop, I think. You really need to keep current with your locals activities.

I was there when 1245 lost the jurisdiction to 47. Neither local has seniority in their outside agreement which is the basis for the IBEW constitution (inside cover), which you have never read apparently. (Still haven’t been to the Riverside Dispatch to get one, I see. Mac will give you one, gladly)

And, kid, I was exercising my tickets trampability when you were still loading your diapers. Have you made it to the second county yet?

You should try tramping. You may just learn something besides shooting that mouth of yours.

You may also try learning a little about the IBEW too. Send me your address and I’ll send you a tramp guide, a constitution and a soother to stick firmly in your yap so your can hear something besides your own voice - helps one like you learn.

By the way, kid, try learning how to type properly without capitalizing every word and learn to spell, huh. Try using a word processor, cut and paste. You’ll come across a little less like a bumpkin. It’s damn embarrassing to read your posts and have you call yourself a lineman! :rolleyes:


:p

[matt 1245]

You Know, The More I Here From You The More I Love You.
The Way You Tell Me Where The Hall Is, And So On. I'am Sure
Mac Knows You On A First Name Baises. I'am Starting To Think You Visit The Hall Quit Frequently

I'am Working For Par Right Now, I Think We Still Need A Good Hand Come On Over. I Aways Willing To Lean From Hands Like You.
On The Way To The Job You Can Tell Me How You Have Forgot More Than I'll Ever Know, When I Got In To Line Work We Didn't Have Trucks And So On. You Sound Real Familiar To Me It's Just Amatter Of Time Before We Work Together Hope It Goes Well

[Trampbag]

Just as soon as I can find my teeth, they’re in a jar somewhere. I keep forgetting where I put things.

[toptie]

Trampbag, you sound like your one hell of a good joe, and a lineman that appreciates his trade. Please understand, I'am member of a local now, but there was to many years worked down south non union. The pissy part about it was that we as a group of employees were never approached. That bothers me because about 17 years of my career was wasted, when their was then and now approx. 350 or 450 employees in a 150 mile radious that could have been approached for a vote. And to piss it off more there was an IBEW hall in the town I worked in, Wilmington, NC. I think at that time their priorities were in the big factorys'. Could ther possibly been a payoff between corporate Companies and Union at that point? If so it was a shame because all of the Union revenue lost. I've been away from ther almost 5 years, but can just about guarante status-quo.

[Trampbag]

Toptie,



I doubt if a local union hall would be taking payola to not organise a company, but strange things do happen. It is more likely the IBEW local is not receiving any favourable vibes from those employees or perhaps the “hall” you mention is not a utility local, perhaps an inside local unfamiliar with outside or utility work and if that is the case another local would have to be involved.

I haven’t had the privilege of working in NC yet so I have no first hand knowledge of the State. My “Tramp Guide” is over 5 years old and may be out of date, but Local 495 is in Wilmington and is an inside, outside and electrical manufacturing local – not utility.
There are 4 locals that are designated “utility”. Local 238 in Asheville, 962 & 1902 in Charlotte, and 2290 in Reidsville have that designation. I don’t know which one has the jurisdiction over the area you are talking about. (Remember I said my Local Directory Guide is a little dated and things change in the IBEW)



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