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saftgeek
09-14-2006, 02:44 PM
I am again asking for some guidance... I have been asked to work with our men and compile a list of rules (safety) that are considered to be so vital that breaking one could result in catastrophic injury or death. These rules need to be very concise and easily understood.

I have a couple obvious ones, like rubber gloves, lock-out/tag-out, test for voltage, etc...

I am curious as to your opinion of what rule do you feel is most important. What would you tell you son to do/not do... I know OSHA guidelines are intended to keep you safe, but all of those rules are open to interpretation and that is where people disagree...

Thanks for your time,

Saftgeek

mscheuerer
09-14-2006, 03:17 PM
Try here SaftGeek and read... I don't know what type of company your representing but if it's a utility, co-op or other heavy commerical/industrial hands on electrical outfit I would assume that these rules would already be in place regardless. The way your describing this issue as being possibly "catasptophic" and "deadly" to the worker puzzles me. Ill wait and hear more from the peanuts here in the gallery...guys????

http://www.incident-prevention.com/..._Gloves_On.html

T-Man
09-14-2006, 03:52 PM
Work Between Grounds

TRAMPLINEMAN
09-14-2006, 10:46 PM
While working on energized primary conductors, two men in the primary at all times.

igloo64
09-14-2006, 10:50 PM
Test and ground. It could be the most important rule.

saftgeek
09-15-2006, 09:45 AM
I should have established that I am at a Cooperative. We are now going through a Management shift and our working rules may have slid a little over time. We recently had an outside audit and our crews were questioned away from the group. The whole crew was questioned, not just the crew leader. As a result of this, we found that our men are really unsure as to what the rules are and what is expected of them. Our safety manual goes well beyond the OSHA minimums and this is where the confusion sets in.

Now don't get me wrong, our men are not reckless or careless, they are very hardworking men. What has the new Manager spooked is that every Coop around us has either had a fatality or a catastrophic event. After our Manager received his letter about the visit he questioned the crew leaders and came to the conclusion that the rules are way too vague and in some instances almost impossible to follow.

From there, we are here. I am tasked with putting together a concise list of the most important rules. The foremen, safety comm, and other linemen were to offer up suggestions. Guess what??? I've only had one, LO/TO...

That is why I am asking you guys, if you were sending your son to work, what would be the most important rule, the one you'd put a boot in his rump for not following???

I hope that clears the fog...thanks.

Saftgeek

topgroove
09-15-2006, 11:57 AM
Of all the safety rules we must follow the most important I feel is a pre-job brief or tailboard. Its vital for the chief to explain the whole job to the crew so each man on the crew know's exactly what everyone else is going to do. Its a time to discuss working clearence, the use of personel protective equipment,the work method involved, take a good look at ajacent poles and the condition of them. Its always a good idea to talk about the job in detail. Sometimes even the newest apprentice has a good idea. The main idea is to have everyone on the same page. Even things like What is the address where I'm working? Just in case you have to call for help. What feeder is This? What direction is the feed from? Where is the nearest set of switches? I could go on and on but you get the Idea. We work in a hazardous profession but it certainly can be preformed safely. If at any time someone becomes uncomfortable with anything its time to stop and talk about it.

playtime
09-15-2006, 10:44 PM
Insulate, Isolate, Test, Ground. Above all THINK about what you are about to do. Pressure to get jobs done causes corners to get cut. Take the time to do the job right even if it means getting home to the family a little late. Beter late than never.

Trampbag
09-15-2006, 11:08 PM
I’ll tell you what, saftgeek, you just summed it up yourself.

“The whole crew was questioned, not just the crew leader. As a result of this, we found that our men are really unsure as to what the rules are and what is expected of them. Our safety manual goes well beyond the OSHA minimums and this is where the confusion sets in.”

What I have noticed in this trade is that many companies, in their never ending quest to achieve “zero accidents”, tend to write rules in knee jerk reactions to incidents or “catastrophic events”. Those rules, seldom written with consultation with working linemen are often written in legalese or safety engineer speak and are usually confusing, misleading or impossible to follow and still get the job done.

If safety rules were simplified and the language cleaned up to where a tradesman, or for that matter anyone, understood them there would certainly be a lot more compliance.

What’s wrong with OSHA minimum? Is there a reason every company wants to exceed them?

What’s wrong with common sense?

Money spent on training, and I’m not talking about education here (hopefully you understand the difference), will go further than writing more rules. Hands on real honest to goodness training of management, supervision and workers will go a long way to ensure incident frequency goes in the right direction – reduction.

matt 1245
09-16-2006, 01:39 AM
4 men crews if working primary at all times

Stinger
09-16-2006, 10:28 AM
I AGREE WITH WHAT TOPGROOVE SAID. tHERE ARE SO MANY SAFETY ASPECTS. THE TYPE OF JOB DICTATES THE TAILBOARD. I KNOW TG WORKS FOR GRID FROM HIS POSTINGS. I WORK FOR A CONTRACTOR ON GRID PROPERTY. ANY LITTLE INCIDENT THAT REQUIRES AN " INCIDENT ANALYSIS" THE FIRST THING THEY GRAB IS THE TAILBOARD SHEET. SECONDLY THEY INTERVIEW EACH MEMBER OF THE CREW TO SEE IF THEY ALL UNDERSTOOD THE SAFETY BRIEF. THEN THEY THEY GO TO THEIR SAFETY BOOKS AND WORK STANDARDS BOOKS ETC, THE BOTTOM LINE IS THIS BROTHER, EVERY LINEMAN ON THIS SITE CAN GIVE YOU GOOD INFORMATION. BUT A GOOD SAFETY PROGRAM WILL INCLUDE THE BASISCS AND THEN EVERYTHING THAT IS PARTICULAR TO YOUR SYSTEM AND GEOGRAPHICAL LOCATION. WE CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCE OF SAFETY PROGRAMS WORKING RIGHT HERE IN MASS BETWEEN NATIONAL GRID AND NSTAR. WHEN WE GO ON STORMS OUTSIDE OF OUR AREA WE ALWAYS GET A SFETY BRIEF BY THE HOSTING UTILITY AS TO THEIR PARTICULARS WITHIN THEIR SYSTEM. I'AM TELLING YA, I LEARN SOMETHING EVERY TIME. ONE THING ABOUT THIS SITE, YOU MAY SEE A LOT OF PISSING AND MOANING ABOUT THINGS, BUT ONE THING YOU CAN REST ASSURED OF, THERE IS YEARS AND YEARS OF EXPERIENCE HERE JUST FOR THE ASKING. I HOPE WE HAVE GIVEN YOU SOME GOOD ADVISE, THATS WHAT OUR BREATHERN IS ALL ABOUT UNION OR NO-UNION WE ARE STILL ONE BIG FAMILY OF BROTHERS/SISTERS.

dbrown20
09-16-2006, 12:25 PM
It is difficult to come up with safety rules from scratch. I would suggest getting other companies' rules and looking them over. A tailboard is important although they have become more formal these last few years. Each company has different rules for each situation. Some companies require a 4 man crew for working 3 phase vs 1 phase. What you might do is try and come up with as many scenarios as you can imagine with the help of your linecrews and go from there.

OSHA minimums would perhaps be a good place to start if you are going to go from scratch. I don't think you are going from scratch however and perhaps you want to modify your present rules.

Of course reviewing accidents that have occured and deciding what could have prevented them might be one suggestion also. dbrown20 Hi Bill.

old lineman
09-16-2006, 12:52 PM
Something that I don't recall seeing is that OSHA regulations are the MINIMUM that an employer can do. You can't go below their requirements. It's the bottom of the barrel.
Employers are not advised to just stay with the minimum because one omission and you out of the game.
A newer word/s seem to be the catch phrase or the target to strive for.
"BEST PRACTICES".
When an employer approaches safety with this mind set instead of what do I have do to squeak by. Then they have adopted the safety culture that filters down to the last worker in the door.
Let's face it Safety starts at the top. If the employer sets the ground rules and ensures that they happen through adequate training, encourages mentoring, supplies adequate tools and equipment (trucks included) good supervision and consistency with how they handle contraventions everyone knows where they stand and are going to be 'happier campers' because they don't stand out as being 'girly men' when they try to protect themselves.
Being macho with electricity is flirting with disaster.
No lineman should ever be questioned about wanting to cover-up another potential in the work zone, or asking questions, wearing the necessary PPE or applying grounds or any other way of ensuring their safety.
The stupid question is the one that never got asked.
To assume, makes an 'ASS of yoU and ME'.
The Old Lineman

US & CA Tramp
09-16-2006, 03:28 PM
AMEN, Trampbag!!!!

dbrown20
09-16-2006, 07:33 PM
Just remembering all the bad accidents I have known of, I would start with rules on when and where to wear rubber gloves on distribution. Most of the accidents I can remember involving electrocution could have been prevented by simply using rubber gloves. dbrown20 Hello Bill.

stickstomper
09-16-2006, 09:13 PM
At our Coop the philosophy is that the crew foreman is responsible for safety. Some are good at enforcing the rules and some let anybody get away with anything they want to. We have single man buckets changing out arms on 3-phase lines with only an apprentice on the ground. We cut-in double deadends out of single man buckets on energized lines. The Coop has us do just about everything with one journeyman and one apprentice. I am glad to see that some Coops are on the ball when it comes to safety. My observation is that you need a plan for safety that is Top to bottom and someone in a position other than a line crew member to make sure they are enforced properly and that a just punishment is delivered for non-compliance.
I also think safety rewards for good compliance would be a great idea. I work at a "safety accredeted" Coop which in this case means absolutely nothing. Pushing alot of paper looks good to the insurance company but does nothing to improve safety if you dont actually inspect the items on your inspection sheets. Maybe we are typical I really dont know. Stick

playtime
09-16-2006, 09:50 PM
At our Coop the philosophy is that the crew foreman is responsible for safety. Some are good at enforcing the rules and some let anybody get away with anything they want to. We have single man buckets changing out arms on 3-phase lines with only an apprentice on the ground. We cut-in double deadends out of single man buckets on energized lines. The Coop has us do just about everything with one journeyman and one apprentice. I am glad to see that some Coops are on the ball when it comes to safety. My observation is that you need a plan for safety that is Top to bottom and someone in a position other than a line crew member to make sure they are enforced properly and that a just punishment is delivered for non-compliance.
I also think safety rewards for good compliance would be a great idea. I work at a "safety accredeted" Coop which in this case means absolutely nothing. Pushing alot of paper looks good to the insurance company but does nothing to improve safety if you dont actually inspect the items on your inspection sheets. Maybe we are typical I really dont know. Stick

Having only an apprentice on the ground observing is not a good senerio. Most apprentices are "afraid" to tell a journeyman that he is doing something wrong and alot of Journeymen won't accept an apprentice questioning them. The observer should be the lineman in charge. observer on the ground is just as if not more important than the person in the air. Just my opinion.

DuFuss
09-17-2006, 09:44 AM
Playtime that should be coming out of the tailboard meeting. If I don't say it, my crew foreman does. "How are we going to do this?" This opens the mic up to anyone on the crew including the app to share input on the job at hand. Personally I want him to tell me how he thinks it can be done. Then after all is said I can make the decision to go with his input or tell him why it won't work or that would be a good idea but what if we do this a different way. I want him to feel like his input is important to me. I also want him to feel like he can make good decisions even as an app. Plus I'd like for us to work so well together that people would think we shared a brain like me and my journeyman did.

stickstomper that's not the best philosophy. Safety starts with you. What if someone steps out of the truck and forgets his hardhat? "Hey man your hardhat..." Could have just saved his life. He also could have responded "Screw a hardhat!!" then you'd still be covered and he'd be laid out somewhere being hit with a bell or wrench or something.

I think the tailboard is important. I don't think someone should have to write every single thing down though. It's a situational thing. If you're going to be tearing out across a field in the wide open setting poles I don't think you need to evaluate every single pole. By the time you get to the second one everyone should have a pretty good idea what the deal is. Now the last pole will be the hot one so let's talk about that.

igloo64
09-17-2006, 02:31 PM
All accidents CAN be prevented!!!!!!!!

electric squirrel
09-17-2006, 02:44 PM
. Some are good at enforcing the rules and some let anybody get away with anything they want to. We have single man buckets changing out arms on 3-phase lines with only an apprentice on the ground. We cut-in double deadends out of single man buckets on energized lines. The Coop has us do just about everything with one journeyman and one apprentice.


An ape as your observer ? Are they nuts!!!
I agree with Matt1245, 4 men to a crew when you have any kind of primary work.I did hear from a guy who came up in Colorado that they do put one guy in the storm to do all the work by himself out there.But what if things go wrong? Whats an ape gonna do? And if he's green, then you might as well be alone! 4 man crews,but thats what California outside construction fought for in thier contract, so other places might do things different. You need an observer,a groundhand, and two guys helping each other do the work, minimum! Out here in California we leave the yard as a team and go back to the yard as a team ,even if you dont care for the guy you work with, you still watch his back and he watches yours, and you watch the ape,,,, so that everyone goes home !! E.S. :cool:

Stanman, at ComEdy Il.
09-17-2006, 05:41 PM
All accidents CAN be prevented!!!!!!!!


This is exactly what management always says! :o

So when a drunk crashes into the back of a truck at 2:00 a.m., it was preventable? Yeah, if you can control the unknown, you can prevent ALL accidents. I agree most accidents can be prevented. But to say ALL accidents can be prevented, is just stupid. Here's a prime example....A guy had lifted a ground rod pounder multiple times off the truck. His bicep tore and management said he should have known better. Got a letter in his file.

Some accidents are accidents. Common sense?!

stickstomper
09-17-2006, 08:14 PM
We really have no option to the one journeyman one apprentice two man crew. There is nothing in the safety manual about it other than the man knows CPR , First aid , pole top rescue and bucket rescue. Our IBEW contract doesnt mention anything at all about it either. Our State Dept. of labor only states in the apprenticeship guidelines that we must have one journeyman for each apprentice. IS THERE any OSHA regs that prevent this ?
I would love to be able to make the company send at least two journeymen on each job. If you guys can help please let me know. THanks, Stick

dbrown20
09-17-2006, 08:41 PM
They're not allowed to be an observer here unless they are qualified to do the job being observed. That leaves a lot of lower class apprentices unqualified for safety observation.

It's crap anyway. Just another way to be unsafe. dbrown20 Hi Bill.

igloo64
09-17-2006, 09:10 PM
Believe What Ever You Want.

thrasher
09-18-2006, 09:44 AM
The obvious ones are isolate- test- ground or treat it as hot. PPE is equally obvious and important. The other things are less obvious like training to take a regulator off-line, or a capacitor. But the one I have seen get more people in trouble (including myself) is switching orders. ALWAYS WRITE a switching order and designate ONE person to run it. We also require a second man of journeyman or higher status to check and signoff before switching is done.

saftgeek
09-18-2006, 09:57 AM
I am going to open up here a little and give an opinion. I really believe that most accidents can be prevented.

That being said, I think the fault lies all over the board; Management for not providing enough equip, money etc... Middle Management for pushing to please the uppers, First Line for either trying to be everyone's friend or just not asserting themselves, workers for not following rules/instructions/guidance, and finally safety geeks for trying to rule away accidents.

If you are still reading this, then you should be nodding up and down at one of those. Maybe you have some others to add. My point is, that we are all responsible in one way or another. I haven't been doing this long, but I have done it long enough to identify that I am also part of the problem. If I can't communicate with the men, then how can I expect them to know what to do. I'm not talking about lecture, I'm talking about when I'm done they understand.

Where I fall flat on my face is with the older linemen who refuse to acknowlege any new regulation and fight everything, right or wrong. I don't know why it happens, but it is extremely counter-productive. I keep plugging away but the older linemen have huge influence and the younger guys feel tremendous pressure to conform to whatever the older guys push. I've been told that this only happens here...LOL.

If I could get compliance on one rule, and only one rule, I would choose the wearing of appropriate gloves. That's it...just gloves. I've been told that 95% of all contact fatalities could have been prevented if the worker had been wearing gloves. Of all the reports I've read I can only think of one contact that would not have been prevented by using gloves, and I believe that fatality could have been prevented with the use of truck grounds.

I'm ready to get torn up now. I just felt compelled to share a little too. I really appreciate the input. We have tons and tons of rules on the books, I don't want any more, I just want to know which ones are the most important.

Thanks again,

Saftgeek

Trampbag
09-18-2006, 07:29 PM
I’m an “older lineman”, I have my 30 year IBEW pin soon to get 35 years. I have worked in a lot of places, some “safe” and others damn unsafe. I have been injured twice quite seriously, the first time because of my own stupid bravado all linemen have, the most recent injury was a truly unpreventable accidents, one of the few I have ever witnessed.

You’re right about one thing – most accidents are preventable. Why are they not prevented? Good question and you answered it in an earlier post.

“The whole crew was questioned, not just the crew leader. As a result of this, we found that our men are really unsure as to what the rules are and what is expected of them. Our safety manual goes well beyond the OSHA minimums and this is where the confusion sets in.”

The point is we are inundated with rules and regulations till we ignore many of them and that includes the work place.

“Where I fall flat on my face is with the older linemen who refuse to acknowlege any new regulation and fight everything, right or wrong. I don't know why it happens, but it is extremely counter-productive. I keep plugging away but the older linemen have huge influence and the younger guys feel tremendous pressure to conform to whatever the older guys push.”

When I was a young safety was pretty much handled by the crew foreman and our crews were big, 10 or so men (5 or 6 linemen and the rest groundmen) and you learned from the older guys. You didn’t have a lot of “safety assessments” in the field and the rules were simple and they were very similar no matter where you tramped.

Today safety is a pain in the ass. It changes from company to company, State to State, and sometimes from one side of the city to the other. The safety men are usually a bunch of Dick Heads who know nothing of the trade and come out to the jobsite and simply are a nuisance, bitching about wheel chalks and hard hat stickers and crap that means very little to a hand who just cut over a difficult corner with out the proper tools because the company either won’t buy them or enough of them.

Now I’m certified in several areas of safety in several industries including the power utility industry. I’ve been horribly frustrated, like many of my fellow linehands, at the carnage in this trade, the fatalities and the crippling injuries that are on the increase. Much of it is due to the fact that training seems to be a low priority to the companies because it costs money. Also, because of the shortage of linemen, inexperienced, under trained hands are assigned to tasks above their level of competence and these companies want fewer and fewer workers on the crew. Hell, many places now have linemen working alone at night plugging in cutouts and all they need to do is call in every 20 minutes or so to ensure they are still alive.

I don’t even want to get into the bullshit with gloving since it raised its head. The answer to everything, when gloving is concerned, is to wear more and more rubber. It went from gloves, to gloves and sleeves and now there is talk of wearing a bib along with the gloves and sleeves!

Now this crap about grounding equipment is just that. There has been arguments for years about that and recloseres in single shot enhancing safety. They are in place to protect equipment not people. I’ve worked in areas where the utility never block the reclosures when crews are working live line (one being So. Cal Edison in southern California). About the grounded trucks BS, if a worker is leaning up against a piece of equipment when it becomes energised what do you think will happen? He’ll be killed or severely injured because electricity takes ALL paths to ground.

We don’t need no more damn rules, we need less. We also need these companies to stop pushing for more productivity with less people and we need the companies to spend more on training.

topgroove
09-18-2006, 07:57 PM
Well said, well spoken Trampbag! I think that sums it up nicely!

old lineman
09-18-2006, 09:51 PM
I’m an “older lineman”, I have my 30 year IBEW pin soon to get 35 years. I have worked in a lot of places, some “safe” and others damn unsafe. I have been injured twice quite seriously, the first time because of my own stupid bravado all linemen have, the most recent injury was a truly unpreventable accidents, one of the few I have ever witnessed.

You’re right about one thing – most accidents are preventable. Why are they not prevented? Good question and you answered it in an earlier post.

“The whole crew was questioned, not just the crew leader. As a result of this, we found that our men are really unsure as to what the rules are and what is expected of them. Our safety manual goes well beyond the OSHA minimums and this is where the confusion sets in.”

The point is we are inundated with rules and regulations till we ignore many of them and that includes the work place.

“Where I fall flat on my face is with the older linemen who refuse to acknowlege any new regulation and fight everything, right or wrong. I don't know why it happens, but it is extremely counter-productive. I keep plugging away but the older linemen have huge influence and the younger guys feel tremendous pressure to conform to whatever the older guys push.”

When I was a young safety was pretty much handled by the crew foreman and our crews were big, 10 or so men (5 or 6 linemen and the rest groundmen) and you learned from the older guys. You didn’t have a lot of “safety assessments” in the field and the rules were simple and they were very similar no matter where you tramped.

Today safety is a pain in the ass. It changes from company to company, State to State, and sometimes from one side of the city to the other. The safety men are usually a bunch of Dick Heads who know nothing of the trade and come out to the jobsite and simply are a nuisance, bitching about wheel chalks and hard hat stickers and crap that means very little to a hand who just cut over a difficult corner with out the proper tools because the company either won’t buy them or enough of them.

Now I’m certified in several areas of safety in several industries including the power utility industry. I’ve been horribly frustrated, like many of my fellow linehands, at the carnage in this trade, the fatalities and the crippling injuries that are on the increase. Much of it is due to the fact that training seems to be a low priority to the companies because it costs money. Also, because of the shortage of linemen, inexperienced, under trained hands are assigned to tasks above their level of competence and these companies want fewer and fewer workers on the crew. Hell, many places now have linemen working alone at night plugging in cutouts and all they need to do is call in every 20 minutes or so to ensure they are still alive.

I don’t even want to get into the bullshit with gloving since it raised its head. The answer to everything, when gloving is concerned, is to wear more and more rubber. It went from gloves, to gloves and sleeves and now there is talk of wearing a bib along with the gloves and sleeves!

Now this crap about grounding equipment is just that. There has been arguments for years about that and recloseres in single shot enhancing safety. They are in place to protect equipment not people. I’ve worked in areas where the utility never block the reclosures when crews are working live line (one being So. Cal Edison in southern California). About the grounded trucks BS, if a worker is leaning up against a piece of equipment when it becomes energised what do you think will happen? He’ll be killed or severely injured because electricity takes ALL paths to ground.

We don’t need no more damn rules, we need less. We also need these companies to stop pushing for more productivity with less people and we need the companies to spend more on training.


I have spent many years in safety in this industry and your right that there are unpreventable accidents even though companies like 3M don't believe it.
I will say though that they are extremely rare.

Safetgeek is correct that 90%+ of electrical contacts can be prevented by simply wearing rubber gloves. This stat was discovered in the 1930's and it's still valid. Those who don't know about it or don't believe it are the ones who expose themselves to the same demise.
As for sleeves and possibly a bib, that's ludicrous. Rubber gloves and proper coverup is all that's necessary. If you survey the world you'll find that sleeves are only required in pockets around the USA. There's 100's of thousands of linemen working safely everyday and have never even seen them. They aren't killing themselves any faster than the ones wearing sleeves.
It's creating a safe work zone that is the key to safety.
It's puzzling why the younger linemen feel that they have to take risk when we know so much. Often it's rushing, trying to look cool or whatever.
Safety guys often get to a job site with the mind set that they must find something amiss and that's the root of the nit picking. That a safety deterrent. Safety guys that don't come from the trades jump on these things because they don't have anything concrete to offer.

Trampbag you seem to think that wheel chocks are nit picking. In some states it's a state law that they be out. When I worked for NEPSCO I can still hear the clanging of the wheel chocks as the truck driver placed them. That's his job.
Today we seldom see a 'truck driver' and the linemen don't want to do it. As the truck is manuevered around town by a lineman, he is a truck driver until the truck is stopped. It's his job now to place the wheel chocks, it goes with the territory.
I used to get lots of arguments about "where to hell do you think the trucks going with the stabilizers down.
No where!
The wheel chocks aren't really necessary when the stabilizers are down, it's when they are lifted that trucks roll away. The cause may be air brakes out of adjustment (parking only one set is applied). Or the Mico isn't tight.
It's just a simple task 'do it'.
Your other point about grounding trucks is bunk. Everyone should know that yes the truck will become momentarily energized even when grounded to the system neutral and anyone touching the truck could be killed. That's why we let the operator know when we need to get something out of the bins.
The grounds are to help trip the protection quicker and more positively.
An ungrounded truck will likely remain energized until someone opens the circuit. Meanwhile more workers and even the general public can be killed.
Grounding trucks is really for after the first incident.
It's also adviseable to ground the circuit if it's isolated. You should never work isolated equipment treating it as alive. That's a death trap.
You seem to make light of grounding in general. I'm surprised at that!
A grounded circuit can kill as well as the truck because as you said electricity will take every path. The old way of working between your grounds isn't even the best route to follow because as we have already said the circuit will become energized momentarily. That's the killer.
Equipotential grounding is the safest method of grounding, but it's not always practical. I'd be the first to admit that.
On the other piont about the second person he/she must know how to do the work underway and must be able to effect a rescue. That means being able to climb a pole if the other worker is climbing. There are a lot of fat supervisors that have eliminated themselves as qualifying as a second person for just that reason.

Topgroove I can't believe you jumped onto Trampbag's band wagon so easily like you did. I'm disappointed.
The Old Lineman

Trampbag
09-18-2006, 10:33 PM
Well, I really did not get into grounding. My belief is that if it isn’t grounded it isn’t safe to work unless using live line procedures. I thought that was so obvious it went beyond regulations or rules.

As I said the grounding of equipment was a point of argument so I only stated my opinion. As far as I’m concerned the only way to ground a truck, or other piece of equipment in order to protect people would be to drive the truck onto a mat having about 3’ more than the size or the equipment making an equipotential zone then fence the area so that other members of the crew and non-crew members could not approach the equipment. It’s a lot of work and the same thing can be accomplished by ensuring the operator is on the equipment. In that case the grounds on the equipment have no affect on the operator’s safety. Bird on the wire.

Grounding equipment then bonding all equipment together is just making a larger area energised in case of a problem.

My mention of wheel chalks was because I worked an area where you were reprimanded if wheel chalks were not present. One such reprimand was given while the truck was in 10” of mud on ground as flat as a pool table with riggers extended. Many times, as well, I have witnessed safety personnel gig crews for not putting chalks on both sides of the wheels even though the truck is faced up or down hill.

And as disappointed as you are in Topgroove, Old Lineman, I would like to thank him.


I stand by my post.

saftgeek
09-19-2006, 09:41 AM
I completely feel your frustration. It seems like a no-win situation. I am truly lucky in that our Manager has a realistic goal, to keep everyone safe. His goal is not to lower the Work Comp rates, that comes with the first goal. He is learning a lot about the regs, rules and the people that are supposed to have the answers. In this learning you find strengths and weakness, and right now we are trying to focus our efforts on finding and attending to weakness.

From where I sit, my job is to imagine the worst case scenario and then see how we will fare when all the suits come in and turn us inside out. The record-keeping is seldom audited until the poo hits the whirly. Once that happens it is too late for changes. I try to put myself in everyones shoes and see where they fall into the picture. The first-line supervisor will definately be scrutinized the most. Every action, sentence, and decision will be criticized. If he isn't in tune to what is expected, then he is doomed from the start. This is what I want to change. I want everyone, from the new app. to the Foreman to know OUR rules.

As for the grounding accident, very generally what happened was that a digger became energized while changing out poles, the Foreman was attending to putting ground wire on the new pole and fell victim to step potential. He was knocked down and tried to get away but he became intangled in the coil of ground wire on the ground. The OCR never tripped, and he was not killed instantly. I'm not certain truck grounds would have kept him alive, but we'll never know, will we???

Thanks again for your reply, your opinions are of great value to me.

Saftgeek

old lineman
09-19-2006, 01:25 PM
I completely feel your frustration. It seems like a no-win situation. I am truly lucky in that our Manager has a realistic goal, to keep everyone safe. His goal is not to lower the Work Comp rates, that comes with the first goal. He is learning a lot about the regs, rules and the people that are supposed to have the answers. In this learning you find strengths and weakness, and right now we are trying to focus our efforts on finding and attending to weakness.

From where I sit, my job is to imagine the worst case scenario and then see how we will fare when all the suits come in and turn us inside out. The record-keeping is seldom audited until the poo hits the whirly. Once that happens it is too late for changes. I try to put myself in everyones shoes and see where they fall into the picture. The first-line supervisor will definately be scrutinized the most. Every action, sentence, and decision will be criticized. If he isn't in tune to what is expected, then he is doomed from the start. This is what I want to change. I want everyone, from the new app. to the Foreman to know OUR rules.

As for the grounding accident, very generally what happened was that a digger became energized while changing out poles, the Foreman was attending to putting ground wire on the new pole and fell victim to step potential. He was knocked down and tried to get away but he became intangled in the coil of ground wire on the ground. The OCR never tripped, and he was not killed instantly. I'm not certain truck grounds would have kept him alive, but we'll never know, will we???

Thanks again for your reply, your opinions are of great value to me.

Saftgeek

Every time we look at a situation an try to develop an iron clad solution, then we MUST look at it with the worst case in mind. It seems like the approach that 'the sky is falling, the sky is falling' but you prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
An example would be that you are preparing to rescue a worker from aloft. The normal structure is 175' tall, yes but we have a river crossing where the structure is 300' tall. Naturally the equipment and training would have to be built to handle the tall structure.
Worst case scenario.
You and I know that it is totally impractical to always place a vehicle onto and equipotential mat and enclose the truck. You would only do this when conductor stringing. (some won't even do this elementry task for that).
Those aren't the ones we are trying to reach. They are the ones who find all of these rules overwhelming.
We have to remember that these rules are written in blood. The blood of our predecessors.
Why do we have to see the accident repeated to become believers.
You don't have to touch the stove to confirm that it burns.
By comparison electricity is invisable, something we can't detect how close we are to disaster until the event happens. Once we have crossed that threshold lady luck takes over.
Sometimes she not so kind to just teach us a lesson but she makes it our last faux pas.
As for your point about the OCR not tripping I would say that's because the fault wasn't drawing enough fault current for the OCR to see it and trip. Being connected to the system neutral would have tripped the circuit and it would have stayed isolated if there had been set in the 'hold off' position.
As you say the foreman wasn't killed outright but became entangled. In electrical terms that's a long time after the initial fault. So if the circuit had been isolated via the OCR as it should have been the worst he would have gotten was lady luck's reminder that he messed up. This is a fine example of a WORST CASE SCENARIO.
Saftgeek keep it up you're doing good.
The Old Lineman