FR clothing

[adeubanks]

Im a L.U. 125 member working for Mcminnville Water and Light, and heard a couple of rumors from friends and co-workers that FR clothing is going to be manditory in Oregon by 12-1-06. Does anyone know fow sure if this is true. I went to the OSHA web site and couldn't find any info.

[robnitro]

I dont know but out here in LA DWP, they make even the power plant guys wear it. I do substation switching, and there they definately need it, cause arcs and all can f' you up lol.

I know it sucks in the heat, but it can save your ass.

[Hurricane Harry]

I'm 77 member out of seattle, I wear fr by choice, but we are still in cotton and wool with no manditory fr on the horizon.

[DuFuss]

Cotton isn't FR? Got any FR WITHOUT nomex?

[Koga]

But you are in violation of OSHA rules if you are not wearing FR when doing line work. :eek: (Documents Referencing Regulations (Standards - 29 CFR) - 1910.269) go to OSHAs' web site and check it out.
Work safe :cool:



Koga

[mscheuerer]

Our utility issues it as mandatory uniform gear. If you have to wear by choice then I would highly recommend it given the type of job your doing. Carhartt now has a line and has some pretty descent merchandise.

[Hurricane Harry]

fr is not manditory when doing line work or we would be wearing it. I did not say untreated cotton was fr, is that why they call u dufuss

[DuFuss]

They don't call me dufuss. I called my self that because when I joined the forums there was a lot of people Fussing on here. Do Fuss DuFuss. Got it dufuss?

[Hurricane Harry]

sorry I blew up

[DuFuss]

Happens to the best of us.

[KingRat]

we had a lineman involved in a flash incident and it burned his fr clothing completely off, but it saved his life. they tell us to wear layers. I was never big on fr because it is hot and not very comfortable, but once you see how it can prevent serious burns anybody doing linework should wear it. Injured lineman got a couple months off but he is back to work, only because of the fr.

[JAKE]

we gotta wear FR if were around live line, gotta wear the shirt and cotton undershirt, and electrical hazard rated boots.

its lame when its 100deg but...better than being dead

[Koga]

corrected on a technicality. It states fire retardent.And the heavy cotton 16oz.per square yard will suffice. :cool:



Koga

[Mike-E]

we get our fr through the hall. they have given us shirts with a "1" rating, windbreakers with a "2" or "3" rating, and carhartt winter coats with some other rating, I don't know. Supposedly we are going to get shirts with a higher rating because the "1" rating isn't really that great of protection. the funny thing is the they say anyone working on energized lines needs to wear them, even if it is just secondary. when all of the first year apps found this out they order they're fr clothing and the BA got kind of pissed because he didn't expect the fund to go down that quick.

[BigClive]

At the very least don't wear the synthetic fabrics that get fuesd to your skin by flash. (Yeah I know you all knew that.)

Cotton isn't specifically flameproof, but does provide at the very least a barrier that burns but doesn't melt. Wool is inherently fire retardent for some reason. I mean, when's the last time you saw a sheep on fire. :)

[topgroove]

http://www.magnaelectric.com/content/view/39/56/ (http://www.magnaelectric.com/content/view/39/56/)

click on this link and watch this video, This will make a believer out of anyone about FR cloathing.

[old lineman]

sorry I blew up


Any worker working on or near energized electrical apparatus MUST wear FR (flame resistant) clothing.
There is extensive information on this subject including the method of calculation the learn what category you require.
It's based on proximity, fault current available, inside or outside and on and on. The formula can be used to calculate the calories of potential energy and this info is plugged in to determine the weight of the material the garmet has to be made from.
There are numerous suppliers of the cloth including Nomex and PBI (another brand).
Check out the web site for Westex out of Chicago www.westexinc.com. They produce natural fibre cloth and then treat it with a fire retardent chemical and it becomes FLAME RESISTANT.
Another company is Bulwark (800) 233-3372.
Untreated natural fibre clothing and synthetics should NEVER be worn in the flash area. They will ignite and contribute to the burn injury.
Don't forget that inclement weather clothing should also be FR. Check Ranpro, e-mail ranpro@ranpro.com
Lot's of companies advertise as FR but when asked whether their clothing meets the new OSHA requirements they get shady. Ranpro products are industrial grade and are FLASH FIRE and ARC worthy.
The Old Lineman

[Viperexaf]

coming up in to this trade then the rules back then wasn't too specific on how much fr and arc flash protection you had to have. With increasing demand for power and more lines coming to their full capicity of being loaded, then i would say there is a definate need for protection of what might happen. The problem of it all is, you don't always know how much protection your gonna need in case something does happen and if your gonna survive through it when it does happen. I would recommend to have your utility or company to get an arc flash analyse on your system. Least then you'll have the minimum requirements of protection on that breaker, switch, or what ever your working at the time a fault or something happens. There are a few companies out there that does them, depending how good of a job you want done depends on the money the company is willing to spend. About the best one that i've seen thus far has been from avo from down in dallas tx. www.megger.com. well there's my two cents, work safe bros

[thrasher]

Not to burst someone's bubble, but I don't think too much of the ARC calculations. While engineering can easily supply maximum fault current and duration to clear time there are other terms in the equation. Specifically the length of the ARC and the distance from the worker's clothing to the ARC. By changing just these two factors the answer can change from a required rating of 1 to a rating of 3.
Old Lineman:
It sounds like your utility did this calculation so what numbers did your utility use for distance from arc and length of arc?

[Hurricane Harry]

There are two sets of rules that can be used in our trade. One that is covering inside electrical workers makes it manditory to wear fr. Washington state rules covering line workers says we must wear clothing that is not senthetic, or excellarate a flame. These state rules must be equal to, or stricter than osha. We have had lengthy discussions about this at our utility over the years, trying to get them to provid us with fr. It is NOT manditory to wear fr at this time according to osha. But osha is currently looking at making it manditory.

[Trampbag]

Around 30 years ago I worked around the oil & gas industry for the first time. It was mandatory then for everyone then, including contractor linecrews, to wear NOMEX. It was really expensive, $200 plus for coveralls. Since then I have worked on oil concessions around the world and FR clothing has virtually disappeared in that industry, an industry which by the way is very safety conscious and practices safety much more diligently than the line trade. Any deviation from any safety procedure in the oil & gas industry is viewed as a serious violation because of the possibility of massive plant destruction and potential loss of life.

Our industry, where deviation from the safety practices is common and expected “to get the job done”, has been rushing to accept FR clothing across the board. I really have to question why!

An international line contractor, who will remain unnamed but who is notorious for stating that it is up to the lineman to train himself in work practices and safety, issued all its linemen with FR shirts after having a series of very nasty accidents and was under threat of being thrown off a second major utilities property. No training, just issued 5 orange FR shirts to each lineman and apprentice.

Call me a sceptic but if the oil & gas industry doesn’t see the advantage to FR clothing, which is much cheaper today than 30 years ago why are we so ready to accept it in our industry? Is it so the power utilities and their contractor companies appear to actually care about us?

I have yet to see a study that convinces me that FR clothing lessens the severity of burns caused by an electrical flash over natural materials such as cotton and wool. Many FR clothing manufacturers’ recommendations are for a cotton or wool undergarments when using their product when temperatures exceed a certain level. The temperatures in and electrical flash certainly are hot enough to not only instantly melt metal, Al & Cu, but ionise them.

Considering this, is FR clothing really required when layers of natural fibre clothing are still required by the manufacturer under the FR product?

Personally I believe the money would be better spent in training to prevent accidents and ensure crews follow proper procedures learned in the training.

It is time, instead, to stop the shortcuts that save time and money for the utility and increase risks to workers. If the companies want to dress me for work, I'll accept that as well, but quit trying to band-aid the problem.

[wormy]

FR can save your life. I have seen videos of non fr vs fr clothing when they light them up with a flash. I also know a fella that was involved in a flash and there is no doubt it saved his life.
Even all natural fibers will light up and keep burning afterwords. FR will not. Of course they will end up taking the FR to far. I can see the day when you are on the pole with a flash hood. That is not going to work


With that being said more money does need to be spent training the workforce. A lot more money. The younguns are going to get hurt if they don't start hiring and training before they lose the old hands that are now lined up for retirement.

[thrasher]

I have been in this industry over 30 years and I have only seen two arcs in all that time that were not caused by someone violating or shortcutting the rules. I would prefer the company and the employees to spend thier efforts in avoiding the arc in the first place rather than all this FR stuff. I fully agree with banning wearing of synthetic fibers because there is no downside to this step. But wearing FR especially in mulitiple layers WILL increase the number of people getting heatstroke and/or heat exhaustion. I have had to send employees to the emergency room from the heat even before the FR rules came along. In case your wondering our company rule is if you are doing work that requires rubber gloves then you must wear at least one layer (the outermost) of FR. You can wear just the one layer. I am not convinced this is really needed but it keeps OSHA away. By the way the two arcs that were not caused by mistakes were both 35kv primary metering CT's blowing up out of the box the first time they were energized.

[old lineman]

Not to burst someone's bubble, but I don't think too much of the ARC calculations. While engineering can easily supply maximum fault current and duration to clear time there are other terms in the equation. Specifically the length of the ARC and the distance from the worker's clothing to the ARC. By changing just these two factors the answer can change from a required rating of 1 to a rating of 3.
Old Lineman:
It sounds like your utility did this calculation so what numbers did your utility use for distance from arc and length of arc?

I hadn't seen your reply until now.
Actually I have been out of the loop since retirement.
All these new fangled ways of calculating the risk baffles me.
I know one thing though.
An electrical arc is over 3,000 degrees F and it's there in less than a heartbeat. So FR clothing can be a life saver.
Mind you prevention is always the best route to follow but when the shit hits the fan you'll be better off with the proper clothing.
I don't need fancy calculations to convince me of that. I've seen the aftermath for myself and it ain't pretty.
The Old Lineman

[old lineman]

There are two sets of rules that can be used in our trade. One that is covering inside electrical workers makes it manditory to wear fr. Washington state rules covering line workers says we must wear clothing that is not senthetic, or excellarate a flame. These state rules must be equal to, or stricter than osha. We have had lengthy discussions about this at our utility over the years, trying to get them to provid us with fr. It is NOT manditory to wear fr at this time according to osha. But osha is currently looking at making it manditory.

You know Harry there comes a time when you should do something for yourself and your family.
The company probably should be supplying the FR clothing but that's often a negotiated thing. Personnaly I would protect myself first then fight for them to supply, meanwhile you'll be setting a good example and the company will often say "well if these guys believe that much in this clothing maybe we should have another look at it".
Don't forget that Nomex and PBI materials are synthetic.
Where there is a possibility of and electrical arc you should't wear 100%cotton, cotton/nylon blends, or cotton /polyester blends. Actually 100% cotton is real bad because it just burns and doesn't shrink from the heat, therefore, the area of the surface burns is greater than blended material.
The Old Lineman

[thrasher]

Old Lineman:
I don't disagree that an arc is extremely destructive and hot. I've gotten a "sunburn" off of one myself. What my arguement is, for this area with hot summers and high humidity heat stroke and heat exhaustion are significant problems. If OSHA forces linemen to wear multiple layers of FR clothing routinely, we will send people to the hospital on a regular basis. Despite what the salesmen say FR clothing (such as Nomex, Kermel, PBI, and Firewear) just doesn't "breathe" the same as 100% cotton and is hotter for the same wieght. Jointly with this is the lack of precision as to the actual needed "protection". As I stated in my earlier post changing just the length of the arc from 7 inches to 24 inches and the distance to the arc from 20 inches to 12 inches can go from "required rating" of 1 to a rating of 3. I just don't have much faith in this whole idea. I would rather spend time, effort, and money to avoid the arc in the first place while keeping the men in clothes without nylon, rayon or polyester.

[US & CA Tramp]

I have been in this industry over 30 years and I have only seen two arcs in all that time that were not caused by someone violating or shortcutting the rules. I would prefer the company and the employees to spend thier efforts in avoiding the arc in the first place rather than all this FR stuff. I fully agree with banning wearing of synthetic fibers because there is no downside to this step. But wearing FR especially in mulitiple layers WILL increase the number of people getting heatstroke and/or heat exhaustion. I have had to send employees to the emergency room from the heat even before the FR rules came along. In case your wondering our company rule is if you are doing work that requires rubber gloves then you must wear at least one layer (the outermost) of FR. You can wear just the one layer. I am not convinced this is really needed but it keeps OSHA away. By the way the two arcs that were not caused by mistakes were both 35kv primary metering CT's blowing up out of the box the first time they were energized.

The attitude that you to supermen have just shown, is what gets our young apprentices and Lineman killed and injured. When you are ignorant to the facts, you would be better off to say nothing than to open your mouth and remove all doubt of ignorance!

[Trampbag]

So, hotshot (US & CA Tramp), what exactly are your facts that I’m ignorant of. You shoot your face off and accuse me of setting up a riskier situation for the entire trade, yet you haven’t made any comment anywhere in this thread before, nada.

I’ll just becha you work for that contractor with those orange FR shirts. Cushy job?

[Hurricane Harry]

No one is trying to get anybody killed. We are just having a discussion on the laws and merits of FR. Got any input?

[Trampbag]

Yea, Uncle Harry, that's pretty much what I thought.

Sorry, lost it there for a bit.

[cartoon]

hello fellow linemen i am in jamaica and our company is thinking of going to fr i am wondering also if this will be mandutary for us in the caribbean also

[old lineman]

Old Lineman:
I don't disagree that an arc is extremely destructive and hot. I've gotten a "sunburn" off of one myself. What my arguement is, for this area with hot summers and high humidity heat stroke and heat exhaustion are significant problems. If OSHA forces linemen to wear multiple layers of FR clothing routinely, we will send people to the hospital on a regular basis. Despite what the salesmen say FR clothing (such as Nomex, Kermel, PBI, and Firewear) just doesn't "breathe" the same as 100% cotton and is hotter for the same wieght. Jointly with this is the lack of precision as to the actual needed "protection". As I stated in my earlier post changing just the length of the arc from 7 inches to 24 inches and the distance to the arc from 20 inches to 12 inches can go from "required rating" of 1 to a rating of 3. I just don't have much faith in this whole idea. I would rather spend time, effort, and money to avoid the arc in the first place while keeping the men in clothes without nylon, rayon or polyester.

I know FR clothing doesn't breath well, therefore, you sweat more. Workers who sweat fatigue quicker and fatigue is a hazard in itself.
This may help. In hotter climes the clothing can be designed with lighter material on the back. What about an open flap between the shoulder blades. like a safari shirt. They are designed to let the air flow through.
The company can ask for samples to see what works best for you.
Trying to get rid of one problem and causing another isn't getting ahead is it?
Just a thought!
The Old Lineman

[old lineman]

I see some in this discussion are talking about underclothing being no big deal.
I think it's more important than one may think.
I'll relate a tale for you to digest.
In our province where it's cold in the winter a welder was welding wearing a down filled type of one piece underwear. Probably the kind you'd want to have in a duck blind or on a deer stand.
An amber entered his open shirt at his neck and ignited this synthetic encased down filled underwear and he ran around screaming while burning and his co-workers couldn't figure out what was happening.
Finally they did and yanked his clothes off. He died at the scene.
Horrific but true. Let's learn from this tragedy.
There's a lot of molten metal in an arc and your usually positioned below. An accident waiting to happen.
The Old Lineman

[THE KID]

Does anybody know if OSHA has a rule on winter clothes such as bibs & jackets? Do they need to be FR retardent or ARC. I have a pair of Carhartt insulated bibs that are neither and our company said they will buy outer wear but we have to find out if we need FR or ARC. Any information will help.

[Electriceel]

Outer layer needs to be FR. Arc rating I am not sure about, but anything I have seen that is FR rated will meet some type of arc rating.
We are required to wear FR shirts and pants during the summer, and FR bibs and jacket are provided also for cold weather.

They can be a little warm at times, but we can accept that over the alternative of what could happen in an instant.

[Trampbag]

OSHA doesn’t appear to require FR clothing for electrical workers.

In Kentucky you seem to be covered by Fed OSHA.

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owastand.display_standard_group?p_toc_level=1&p_part_number=1910

Here is the site. I just took a quick look and may be in error.

[Trampbag]

But even though the language is unclear in OSHA, there is this article in T&D magazine.

http://tdworld.com/news/OSHA-rules-overhaul/

[wudwlkr]

Under current OSHA rules lineworkers are only required to wear clothing that will not "contribute to the injury" in the event of exposure to arc or fire. The clothing does not have to protect you from the effects of the heat from the arc itself. It simply can't catch fire and continue to burn making any injury worse. Any type of FR clothing in any weight will put you in compliance with current rules. 100% natural fibers such as cotton or wool will also be in compliance with one exception. There is actually a limit on cotton. 12 oz cotton (jean weight material) is only good for about 3800 amps fault current. This was based on a study by Duke Power. This is not in the actual 1910.269 rule but is in the preamble issued with the rule to explain it.

In fact when OSHA was first developing the 1910.269 standard in the late 80's and early 90's they had not even considered a clothing rule. The current rule came about after IBEW, during public hearings on the proposed rules, submitted over 200 accident reports where burning clothing made injuries worse. This much data on this many accidents kind of forced OSHA's to act and hence the current rule.

In 1994 when OSHA issued 1910.269 there had not been enough work done yet to determine how much protection any particular type or weight of cloth could provide to a worker. Testing was just beginning to be done. Because there was no data, OSHA could not make clothing a protective item like hardhats or safety glasses, only say that it couldn't make injuries worse and prohibit the wearing of certain cloth such as nylon and polyester becasue they were a known hazard.

A lot has changed since 1994. An incredible amount of testing has been done and the industry today now has the data that shows how much protection any particular type or weight of FR clothing can provide. Since this data now exists OSHA is preparing to change the clothing rules for lineworkers from non-contributory to protection. In other words, the clothing that you wear in the future will have to protect you from the heat energy of an arc the same way safety glasses protect your eyes from flying objects. As an example of what OSHA's final clothing rules will probably look like take a look in the new 2007 NESC. There are some new FR clothing rules in Part 4, Rule 410 that OSHA will probably use in their rule.

The biggest problem will be calculating the heat energy an arc produces to determine how much clothing will be needed. There are currently 5 or 6 different methods commonly used at this time and each method will give a different answer. However, given the wide range of heat exposures that will exist on practically any system, layering will probably be the only really workable method.

[old lineman]

Under current OSHA rules lineworkers are only required to wear clothing that will not "contribute to the injury" in the event of exposure to arc or fire. The clothing does not have to protect you from the effects of the heat from the arc itself. It simply can't catch fire and continue to burn making any injury worse. Any type of FR clothing in any weight will put you in compliance with current rules. 100% natural fibers such as cotton or wool will also be in compliance with one exception. There is actually a limit on cotton. 12 oz cotton (jean weight material) is only good for about 3800 amps fault current. This was based on a study by Duke Power. This is not in the actual 1910.269 rule but is in the preamble issued with the rule to explain it.

In fact when OSHA was first developing the 1910.269 standard in the late 80's and early 90's they had not even considered a clothing rule. The current rule came about after IBEW, during public hearings on the proposed rules, submitted over 200 accident reports where burning clothing made injuries worse. This much data on this many accidents kind of forced OSHA's to act and hence the current rule.

In 1994 when OSHA issued 1910.269 there had not been enough work done yet to determine how much protection any particular type or weight of cloth could provide to a worker. Testing was just beginning to be done. Because there was no data, OSHA could not make clothing a protective item like hardhats or safety glasses, only say that it couldn't make injuries worse and prohibit the wearing of certain cloth such as nylon and polyester becasue they were a known hazard.

A lot has changed since 1994. An incredible amount of testing has been done and the industry today now has the data that shows how much protection any particular type or weight of FR clothing can provide. Since this data now exists OSHA is preparing to change the clothing rules for lineworkers from non-contributory to protection. In other words, the clothing that you wear in the future will have to protect you from the heat energy of an arc the same way safety glasses protect your eyes from flying objects. As an example of what OSHA's final clothing rules will probably look like take a look in the new 2007 NESC. There are some new FR clothing rules in Part 4, Rule 410 that OSHA will probably use in their rule.

The biggest problem will be calculating the heat energy an arc produces to determine how much clothing will be needed. There are currently 5 or 6 different methods commonly used at this time and each method will give a different answer. However, given the wide range of heat exposures that will exist on practically any system, layering will probably be the only really workable method.


Excellent useful information.
The Old Lineman

[Trampbag]

If all of the money and other resources spent in developing FR clothing and layering protection, which will make it truly unbearable to work in any weather above 75 degrees F, were spent on training linemen and standardising work procedures our trade would not need FR.

[JRT]

Will training solve all the problems? Maybe some, but not all. Case in point - a lineman was in an aerial device gloving a 12.5 circuit, making up new jumpers, when the jumper behind him failed. Evidentially, a connector failed. He was wearing FR, and there was not a lot of it left when the arc concluded. If he had been wearing no-FR, including 100% cotton, no telling what the injuries might have been. The FR worked, burns were very minor. FR clothing is not the answer to eliminating hazards, nothing can replace proper work practices and procedures, but it sure has eliminated a lot of pain ad suffering.

[thrasher]

I think some of you have missed the point I was trying to make. Yes I know arcs are dangerous. Yes I know and fully agree artificial fibers that melt and burn (like rayon, polyester, etc.) should be banned. At a stretch I'll even grant that wearing a single layer of FR clothing anytime you are gloving is probably a case of the benefits outwieghing the slight inconvience. BUT I do not agree that putting a lineman in multiple layers of FR clothing in JULY or August heat is "safer". While the risk of arc burn may have gone down some the risk of heat exhaustion or heat stroke just went way up. All work is a balancing act between the absolute safest and the absolute fastest. You don't repair a pothole by shutting down all four lanes of a highway. You don't add a sadle and txf by shutting down and grounding an entire circuit. You don't prevent the possibility of an arc by wrapping a lineman in three or more layers of FR and then have him pass out across the line. You put the lineman in reasonable protection, a single outer layer of FR and no banned fabrics, and then give him the training and tools to do the work and clear the workzone.

[Trampbag]

Well said, Thrasher.

As far as, “Will training solve all the problems?” Most accidents happen because someone failed to do what they were supposed to do, few happen because a piece of equipment fails without warning. With training and experience a qualified worker can make the decision to isolate and ground the system, and have that decision backed up, if required or perform the task energised using proper proven methods to perform any task with little chance of things going wrong.

After all, that is what a lineman does.

[old lineman]

I think some of you have missed the point I was trying to make. Yes I know arcs are dangerous. Yes I know and fully agree artificial fibers that melt and burn (like rayon, polyester, etc.) should be banned. At a stretch I'll even grant that wearing a single layer of FR clothing anytime you are gloving is probably a case of the benefits outwieghing the slight inconvience. BUT I do not agree that putting a lineman in multiple layers of FR clothing in JULY or August heat is "safer". While the risk of arc burn may have gone down some the risk of heat exhaustion or heat stroke just went way up. All work is a balancing act between the absolute safest and the absolute fastest. You don't repair a pothole by shutting down all four lanes of a highway. You don't add a sadle and txf by shutting down and grounding an entire circuit. You don't prevent the possibility of an arc by wrapping a lineman in three or more layers of FR and then have him pass out across the line. You put the lineman in reasonable protection, a single outer layer of FR and no banned fabrics, and then give him the training and tools to do the work and clear the workzone.


Is it me or are we off track here.
Thrasher where did you get the idea that you would have to wear layers of FR clothing in hot weather.
What we were saying is that if you needed extra layers of clothing because of cold or simply for comfort, beware that inner clothing can ignite and cause havoc.
When the temps are up there, your better of wearing LIGHT FR clothing than any other type.
I agree work practices are paramount but shit happens.
And when it does be prepared. If you've ever talked to a severe burn patient you'll be glad it wasn't you.
Some of you must have seen a video put out by a guy named Charlie (forget the last name). He currently lives in Florida.
He was working at an Exxon refinery in New York State when he was burned. You gotta see this! Bring your kleenex if you have and compassion in your body, you'll need it. Some people even up-chuck at his tale.
The Old Lineman

[Trampbag]

Im a L.U. 125 member working for Mcminnville Water and Light, and heard a couple of rumors from friends and co-workers that FR clothing is going to be manditory in Oregon by 12-1-06. Does anyone know fow sure if this is true. I went to the OSHA web site and couldn't find any info.


This was the first post. I don’t think we are off track. It is not presently a requirement of Fed OHSA.


I question the merits of FR clothing in this trade, though.

I also question the merits of rubber sleeves because if crews had been properly trained and used hoses and blankets as required we wouldn’t require sleeves. Yes, if this trade continues the way it is going we will wear rubber from head to foot, have face shields ¼” thick, wear hardhats that look like the ones NASCAR drivers use and be totally covered, under all that, with layer upon layer of FR or whatever some safety engineer or chemical company develops in the future.

I just don’t think the trade is that dangerous as long as proper work methods are used. I do think there is lots of corner cutting going on out there and I think a lot of under trained tradesmen are in supervision positions. Stupid decisions while working live line high voltage resulting in catastrophic injuries is never going to be countered by wearing more rubber, Fire Retardant clothing in layers or head gear with a crash test rating 10 pound rock launched at 30 MPH.

There is absolutely no definitive proof I have read or seen that convinces me that FR clothing is saving a lot of lives and serious injuries in this trade over someone wearing natural fibres such as 100% cotton and, particularly, wool.

I have seen the pictures, like everyone else, of what is left after a lineman is caught in a fireball caused by a high voltage flash. It isn’t pretty, FR or not. Often there is little left of the RF or other clothing except wool, and wool is not practical in summer heat.

RF stands for Fire Retardant, not Fire Resistant. FR burns, it just won’t, or shouldn’t, continue to burn long after the heat is removed.

It can be made of synthetic fibres and there in lies my apprehension. Are we being sold on something that may be found faulty or useless in the future? It has happened before. I would like to see something definitive before I can be convinced about the merits of FR.

In the meantime can a little more training hurt??

[wudwlkr]

I also question the merits of rubber sleeves because if crews had been properly trained and used hoses and blankets as required we wouldn’t require sleeves. Yes, if this trade continues the way it is going we will wear rubber from head to foot, have face shields ¼” thick, wear hardhats that look like the ones NASCAR drivers use and be totally covered, under all that, with layer upon layer of FR or whatever some safety engineer or chemical company develops in the future.

I just don’t think the trade is that dangerous as long as proper work methods are used. I do think there is lots of corner cutting going on out there and I think a lot of under trained tradesmen are in supervision positions. Stupid decisions while working live line high voltage resulting in catastrophic injuries is never going to be countered by wearing more rubber, Fire Retardant clothing in layers or head gear with a crash test rating 10 pound rock launched at 30 MPH.


Unfortunatly, as you point out, this is the way the industry is headed. Stop and think about it, we really only need 4 "safety" rules.

1) Deenergize, create open, test and ground.
2) If you can't do rule 1 then keep your rubber gloves on, period.
3) Coverup everything that is at a different potential from what you are working on including ground potentials.
4) Use the rest of your PPE also.

Those four rules would eliminate almost all of the serious injuries and fatalities we see in this business. But we can't/won't follow them. Since we can't seem to follow those rules then OSHA is going to create more for us to follow. In the last 12 years since 1910.269 was issued there really hasn't been a big decline in injuries or fatality rates so OSHA is responding the only way they know how. Since we can't take care of ourselves then we obviously are in need of more rules to protect us from ourselves. To paraphrase Pogo: I have met the enemy and he is us.

I disagree with your stance on FR though to some extent. I've seen the results of contacts and arcs involving both synthetics, 100% natural and FR materials a number of times. Without question the FR materials come out on top as far as worker protection. When I think back on the polyester wash and wear uniform shirts I used to wear I just shudder and thank the Lord for keeping me safe.

I do share your concern about layers. When we started wearing FR after 1910.269 came out thre was a huge hue and cry all over the country about how lineworkers were going to be dropping like flies from heat exhaustion and heat stroke becasue of the heavier weight then what was typically worn at that time. Didn't happen. Why? Becasue almost everyone was just wearing lightest weight available that they could get. And in spite of the preceived heaviness and stiffness of NOMEX or treated cotton materials, they do breathe. So it took a little adjustment and getting used to it but everyone survived and most don't even think about it today. But with the proposed rules that OSHA is contemplating I fear this will change. If you are going to work on a line or equipment with high fault currents that require say 40 cal protection, I think you are going to have a real problem. At this level OSHA's proposed rules would reguire 100% protection of your skin, which means a full blast suit or layers of clothing to meet that level of protection plus a full face shield and hood. In the winter in Montanna this might be alright. In the middle of August it will be impossible. It's one thing for a plant electrician to don this type of equipment for a few minutes to rack out a metal enclosed circuit breaker and quite another for a lineman who is going to spend hours in the sun in a bucket truck. Climb a pole? Are you kidding? Once you get into these clothing weights and/or layering I think we are going to start seeing a lot of heat related injuries.

And, not to ramble on, I'll leave you with one more thought to keep you riled up. One item I've not really seen any discussion on anywhere is another aspect of OSHA's proposed rules that I've mentioned above. Face shields. Once over a certain calorie exposure level, face protection will be required. And not any ole face shield can be used. It will have to be FR and heat rated. These types of face shields are very large, heavy compared to what some use now on their hard hats, and heavily tinted. They would be very difficult to use whle in a bucket truck and almost impossible if having to work from a pole. Use in tight confned areas such as vaults will be very difficult. Visibility in direct sunlight might be ok but in poor light conditions or at night; well, you'll probably have to drag a big spotlight around with you.

Parting shot - Those of you that work for contractors under OSHA's 1926 Subpart V construction rules and think all this FR stuff is not going to matter to you, guess what. Your rules are going to change also and will be the same as 1910.269. If you work on energized lines or equipment you'll have to have the same FR protection.

[old lineman]

This was the first post. I don’t think we are off track. It is not presently a requirement of Fed OHSA.


I question the merits of FR clothing in this trade, though.

I also question the merits of rubber sleeves because if crews had been properly trained and used hoses and blankets as required we wouldn’t require sleeves. Yes, if this trade continues the way it is going we will wear rubber from head to foot, have face shields ¼” thick, wear hardhats that look like the ones NASCAR drivers use and be totally covered, under all that, with layer upon layer of FR or whatever some safety engineer or chemical company develops in the future.

I just don’t think the trade is that dangerous as long as proper work methods are used. I do think there is lots of corner cutting going on out there and I think a lot of under trained tradesmen are in supervision positions. Stupid decisions while working live line high voltage resulting in catastrophic injuries is never going to be countered by wearing more rubber, Fire Retardant clothing in layers or head gear with a crash test rating 10 pound rock launched at 30 MPH.

There is absolutely no definitive proof I have read or seen that convinces me that FR clothing is saving a lot of lives and serious injuries in this trade over someone wearing natural fibres such as 100% cotton and, particularly, wool.

I have seen the pictures, like everyone else, of what is left after a lineman is caught in a fireball caused by a high voltage flash. It isn’t pretty, FR or not. Often there is little left of the RF or other clothing except wool, and wool is not practical in summer heat.

RF stands for Fire Retardant, not Fire Resistant. FR burns, it just won’t, or shouldn’t, continue to burn long after the heat is removed.

It can be made of synthetic fibres and there in lies my apprehension. Are we being sold on something that may be found faulty or useless in the future? It has happened before. I would like to see something definitive before I can be convinced about the merits of FR.

In the meantime can a little more training hurt??


Sorry to have to disagree with you Trampbag but FR stands for FLAME RESISTANT not FIRE RETARDANT.
Non synthetic material is chemically treated with fire retardant and it becomes flame resistant.
That's picky shit but the way the manufacturers speak.
I totally agree with your statement that sleeves are not necessary because linemen should be taught to create a safe work zone using rubber coverup (on the apparatus) thus making it more comfortable to work.
If everyone spent a little more time creating that safe work zone where an inadvertant contact couldn't be made, then I agree with your other comment about this trade not being dangerous.
If it was, I woud never have encouraged my son to enter the trade.
This is certainally a thinking persons trade.
Measure twice cut once.
We have all the tools we need if only we'd use them. I can't count the number of times I visited a crew and suggested that cover-up be applied here or there, that wheel chocks are necessary, that the truck needed to be grounded, eye protection has to be worn and so on.
Seldom if ever was the answer,"we don't have that equipment".
It's a safe trade as long as we do as we were taught. Sadly so of the guys entering the trade now haven't been properly trained.
That makes it dangerous and there's plenty of proof on this site.
The Old Lineman

[Trampbag]

I stand corrected. Actually what I meant to say is fire proof.

[old lineman]

Unfortunatly, as you point out, this is the way the industry is headed. Stop and think about it, we really only need 4 "safety" rules.

1) Deenergize, create open, test and ground.
2) If you can't do rule 1 then keep your rubber gloves on, period.
3) Coverup everything that is at a different potential from what you are working on including ground potentials.
4) Use the rest of your PPE also.

Those four rules would eliminate almost all of the serious injuries and fatalities we see in this business. But we can't/won't follow them. Since we can't seem to follow those rules then OSHA is going to create more for us to follow. In the last 12 years since 1910.269 was issued there really hasn't been a big decline in injuries or fatality rates so OSHA is responding the only way they know how. Since we can't take care of ourselves then we obviously are in need of more rules to protect us from ourselves. To paraphrase Pogo: I have met the enemy and he is us.

I disagree with your stance on FR though to some extent. I've seen the results of contacts and arcs involving both synthetics, 100% natural and FR materials a number of times. Without question the FR materials come out on top as far as worker protection. When I think back on the polyester wash and wear uniform shirts I used to wear I just shudder and thank the Lord for keeping me safe.

I do share your concern about layers. When we started wearing FR after 1910.269 came out thre was a huge hue and cry all over the country about how lineworkers were going to be dropping like flies from heat exhaustion and heat stroke becasue of the heavier weight then what was typically worn at that time. Didn't happen. Why? Becasue almost everyone was just wearing lightest weight available that they could get. And in spite of the preceived heaviness and stiffness of NOMEX or treated cotton materials, they do breathe. So it took a little adjustment and getting used to it but everyone survived and most don't even think about it today. But with the proposed rules that OSHA is contemplating I fear this will change. If you are going to work on a line or equipment with high fault currents that require say 40 cal protection, I think you are going to have a real problem. At this level OSHA's proposed rules would reguire 100% protection of your skin, which means a full blast suit or layers of clothing to meet that level of protection plus a full face shield and hood. In the winter in Montanna this might be alright. In the middle of August it will be impossible. It's one thing for a plant electrician to don this type of equipment for a few minutes to rack out a metal enclosed circuit breaker and quite another for a lineman who is going to spend hours in the sun in a bucket truck. Climb a pole? Are you kidding? Once you get into these clothing weights and/or layering I think we are going to start seeing a lot of heat related injuries.

And, not to ramble on, I'll leave you with one more thought to keep you riled up. One item I've not really seen any discussion on anywhere is another aspect of OSHA's proposed rules that I've mentioned above. Face shields. Once over a certain calorie exposure level, face protection will be required. And not any ole face shield can be used. It will have to be FR and heat rated. These types of face shields are very large, heavy compared to what some use now on their hard hats, and heavily tinted. They would be very difficult to use whle in a bucket truck and almost impossible if having to work from a pole. Use in tight confned areas such as vaults will be very difficult. Visibility in direct sunlight might be ok but in poor light conditions or at night; well, you'll probably have to drag a big spotlight around with you.

Parting shot - Those of you that work for contractors under OSHA's 1926 Subpart V construction rules and think all this FR stuff is not going to matter to you, guess what. Your rules are going to change also and will be the same as 1910.269. If you work on energized lines or equipment you'll have to have the same FR protection.


Actually a face shield will be a nightmare for all of the reasons that you point out.
Initially they were perscribed for substation mechanics and switching URD.
Available fault current, close proximity and positioning were all factors.
Normally the operator is at the same level as the switch or slightly above it so heat rising was a consideration.
A lineman on the other hand should assume a position below the switch to operate it. Positioning offers a huge advantage, plus the fact that normally an exploding line switch will disperse it's energy 360 degrees, whereas a metalclad switch gear can only send energy in one direction. Towards the operator.
I am puzzled as to why it has to be tinted.
Extensive research done by Dr. Ralph Chew at the University of Waterloo in Waterloo, Ontario. He proved that clear polycarbonate leases or plastic CR-39 lenses offer approximately 93% filteration of the harmful UV rays.
The only thing tint does for the wearer is filtering the bright sunlight and lessening 'dazzle'.
Dazzle are those orange stars that float around in your vision for up to 10 minutes after the flash. The more severe the exposure the longer the dazzle but it was discovered that it always totally disappeared without any lasting effects.
Summary:
The worker can wear safety glasses as long as the leases are made of the above mentioned products and he will have adequate protection from all anticipated flashes in the industry. That means tinted lenses are good for sunlight glare but not required.
This will open it up to clear lenses made from those products for wear on dull days and at night when background light is poor.
I'm sure this research is available from the university. It's been around for at least a decade.
In my mind the key to the issue is that safety glasses with side shields are worn every day all of the time. The mechanical protection is paramount from everything. Electrical flashes are only one aspect of the dangers linemen face.
The Old Lineman

[wudwlkr]

I am puzzled as to why it has to be tinted.


FR or arc-rated faceshelds are not tinted the way sunglasses are. They actually have a metallic film deposited on the surface of the shield. This metallic film reflects the heat away from the face. If this film were not there the shield would just melt and burn. While the film does a good job at reflecting heat it also does a good job of reflecting and reducing visible light so it can't get through to the eyes. This means you won't be able to see as much. Check the URL below to see an example of what I'm talking about. These face shields are from WH Salisbury and you can see from the specs that the best of them will only allow about 70% of the visible light through. Typically most of these types of shields will cut 40%-50% of visible light.

http://www.whsalisbury.com/arc/whatsnew.htm

One of the largest manufacturer of these arc-rated face shields, a company called Oberon, has been lobbying OSHA a great deal to get such face shields required in the revised utility safety rules. Of course they couch it all in terms of worker safety but if as a result they were to start making a lot of money they probably wouldn't complain too much.

[thrasher]

Old Lineman:
I know that the current OSHA regulations do not require multiple layers. The proposed changes to 1910.269 and to subpart V though DO REQUIRE MULTIPLE LAYERS in the present format.

[old lineman]

Old Lineman:
I know that the current OSHA regulations do not require multiple layers. The proposed changes to 1910.269 and to subpart V though DO REQUIRE MULTIPLE LAYERS in the present format.


As you said if the workers are forced into layering then heat exhaustion and dehydration will certainly become a factor. In colder weather and colder climes this problem won't be for as long but it will still come up.
Everyone making these requirements up should go into the field and observe.
Only those who get out of the ivory towers have any credability.
Surely someone will realize someday that frustration and fatigue is also a safety factor. Being uncomfortable in your work is a well documented hazard.
Somebody should grab someone by the short and curlies and haul them to a line crews work site when the temps are around 95-100 and the humidity is 90%+.
Maybe then they'll catch on.
The Old Lineman

[Trampbag]

FR is Fire Resistant, Fire Retardant, Flame Resistant or Flame Retardant depending opon which company produces it, on which country’s terminology, and on which Safety Officer is writing the description.

Apparently any or all is correct.

By the way, has anyone checked out page 69 of FARWEST Line Specialties 2005 – 2007 catalogue?



Nomex Hood
Description:

- 100% Nomex knitted hood
- Double layered for extra protection around face

http://fwlsp.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=69F

Ain’t this going to be fun at 100 degrees, with sleeves, gloves and face shield???

[Trampbag]

Here is an article that seems to explain a lot about FR clothing. It still doesn’t convince me of the necessity for FR clothing in our trade but it is written in understandable language and does explain the what and why of FR clothing. I consider only natural fibers such as cotton and wool, not synthetic or blends, appropriate.

I am wearing FR clothing on many jobs I go to and have gotten used to it.





http://www.spotnet.com.au/pdf_resources/frfabrics.pdf

[alexlights]

...It still doesn’t convince me of the necessity for FR clothing in our trade...



http://www.spotnet.com.au/pdf_resources/frfabrics.pdf

I don't think I would wear anything but FR rated material where I might be exposed to a flash. We have done lots of testing here with lots of clients. Non-FR will burn untill someone puts the fire out or all the material is gone.

This is not an ad for this company, but they have some videos posted that show this pritty good.
http://www.westexinc.com/videos.htm

[Trampbag]

Ah yes, another consulting/training/testing engineer. Where ever would this trade be without you? (Learn to spell, OK?)

Well considering that I have been involved in the area of question most of my adult life I’ll take your opinion with a grain of salt, so to speak, if you don’t mind.

I understand that FR clothing is supposed to not continue to burn after the heat is removed. But then again neither does cotton, really, and wool certainly does not. The fact is I am still not convinced that manufactured FR is safe or required as long as linemen wear 100% cotton or, especially, 100% wool. (Wool is now and always has been FR). Much of the FR clothing pushed today is synthetic, and I’m not sold.

I think the FR clothing issue is taking the attention away from the real issue. This trade is not safe because companies are not spending the money training linemen and management and because good work practices are being disregarded. No amount of FR clothing is going to save the skin of anyone caught up in a major electrical flash because it is not heat resistant it simply extinguishes when the heat is no longer present. The fact is that the electrical flash is so hot it instantly liquefies Aluminum, Copper, Steel and even porcelain. Unless you have been caught in a major flash it is not possible to comprehend how fast and hot it is. Let me assure anyone curios, FR clothing burns and I have had FR clothing with burn holes when soldering splices and it doesn’t look one hell of a lot different than when I wore 100% cotton boiler suits (coveralls) doing the same task. Nor did it feel a hell of a lot different when it brunt through the FR clothing from that of 100% cotton. I have never seen anyone burst into flames when wearing 100% cotton, not once.

FR clothing is good clothing, but the issue, I repeat again, the issue of FR clothing is detracting from the real issue of safety in this trade.

Lack of Training.

Lack of Compliance with OH&S Regulations.

Lack of Following Good, Sound Work Practices.

Lack of an Industry Wide Standard Safe Working Practices Code.

Lack of a single authority policing the industry using experienced, qualified, well seasoned tradesmen.

[harley]

AMEN, brother

[thrasher]

Trampbag:
I don't always agree with you but in this case you have it nailed dead-on.
Lack of training, lack of consistent sound work practices, and the oversight people have no idea of the work or how its done.

[mscheuerer]

Ah yes, another consulting/training/testing engineer. Where ever would this trade be without you? (Learn to spell, OK?)

Well considering that I have been involved in the area of question most of my adult life I’ll take your opinion with a grain of salt, so to speak, if you don’t mind.

I understand that FR clothing is supposed to not continue to burn after the heat is removed. But then again neither does cotton, really, and wool certainly does not. The fact is I am still not convinced that manufactured FR is safe or required as long as linemen wear 100% cotton or, especially, 100% wool. (Wool is now and always has been FR). Much of the FR clothing pushed today is synthetic, and I’m not sold.

I think the FR clothing issue is taking the attention away from the real issue. This trade is not safe because companies are not spending the money training linemen and management and because good work practices are being disregarded. No amount of FR clothing is going to save the skin of anyone caught up in a major electrical flash because it is not heat resistant it simply extinguishes when the heat is no longer present. The fact is that the electrical flash is so hot it instantly liquefies Aluminum, Copper, Steel and even porcelain. Unless you have been caught in a major flash it is not possible to comprehend how fast and hot it is. Let me assure anyone curios, FR clothing burns and I have had FR clothing with burn holes when soldering splices and it doesn’t look one hell of a lot different than when I wore 100% cotton boiler suits (coveralls) doing the same task. Nor did it feel a hell of a lot different when it brunt through the FR clothing from that of 100% cotton. I have never seen anyone burst into flames when wearing 100% cotton, not once.

FR clothing is good clothing, but the issue, I repeat again, the issue of FR clothing is detracting from the real issue of safety in this trade.

Lack of Training.

Lack of Compliance with OH&S Regulations.

Lack of Following Good, Sound Work Practices.

Lack of an Industry Wide Standard Safe Working Practices Code.

Lack of a single authority policing the industry using experienced, qualified, well seasoned tradesmen.

Tramp;

You said it right, believe it or not this should be "broadcasted" on a few other threads here that i've been reading. Sometimes improper training and/or field skills developed can lead to disasterous consequences. Let's make sure we continue to live for each day for our families and continiue to come home.

LET NO MANS GHOST SAY;
"My training let me down"

[Trampbag]

I think it should be broadcasted from the roof tops, nay, the pole tops!

[BigClive]

I understand that FR clothing is supposed to not continue to burn after the heat is removed. But then again neither does cotton, really, and wool certainly does not. The fact is I am still not convinced that manufactured FR is safe or required as long as linemen wear 100% cotton or, especially, 100% wool. (Wool is now and always has been FR). Much of the FR clothing pushed today is synthetic, and I’m not sold.

I have had FR clothing with burn holes when soldering splices and it doesn’t look one hell of a lot different than when I wore 100% cotton boiler suits (coveralls) doing the same task. Nor did it feel a hell of a lot different when it brunt through the FR clothing from that of 100% cotton. I have never seen anyone burst into flames when wearing 100% cotton, not once.


Boilersuit? Are you an ex-pat? :)

I was discussing fire resisting overalls recently with some welders/engineers. One was reminiscing on how he got hand-down denim bib overalls from his tradesman when he was an apprentice blacksmith and had really liked them. (I've just ordered him some Pointer Brand overalls from the USA). The cotton/denim is a fairly good barrier against brief flame exposure, and I suppose the heavy denim used in traditional American overalls is even better than standard thickness cotton. The fact that welders tend to choose ordinary denim jeans for their protection from the continuous barrage of sparks is probably a good indication of the resilience of denim to molten metal.

Wool was always used at the steelworks. I used to wear the rough wool trousers as an apprentice, and quite frankly they itched like hell. :)

In the theatre industry both treated cotton and wool are used for the drapes/curtains as they both resist fire natuarally.

The real snag with a flash is that the plasma tends to penetrate the fibres, so a dense weave is probably best. At the very least cotton will act as a barrier against a decent portion of the flash and won't tend to fuse onto the damaged skin so easily.

[Trampbag]

Boilersuit? Are you an ex-pat?


Aye, lad.

[BigClive]

Boilersuit? Are you an ex-pat?


Aye, lad.

Good move. :)

[paul1703]

I work for a public utility in Mass & our union just came to an agreement with management on FR because next year it will be an OSHA law. Right now we only wear cotton. we've been fighting for it for a year and management finally gave in because of this law.

[Trampbag]

It only stands to reason that if the company or OSHA requires FR clothing to be worn at work because of safety the company supplies the FR clothing. If you take an allowance for the required safety equipment, in this case FR clothing, then the allowance can disappear in years to come leaving you with nothing but the requirement at your cost. Try to negotiate company supplied FR clothing, or if it already in your agreement, even if you are non-union you should have an individual agreement, maintain it.

Under those circumstances, company supplied and washed FR clothing, I fully agree with FR clothing.


FR clothing that is not dedicated when washed, washed only with like FR clothing and especially not mixed with man made fibres, may no longer be FR. Check the label.

[blackley]

The following statement is an excerpt from the NESC 2007 Rule 410A3 page 246. The NESC is not amandatory document but is a basis underwhich OSHA can cite an employer for failure to follow. It is NOT the same doc as the NEC

All utility workers should read and be familiar with the guide lines established in Part 4 which relates to Sage Work Practices.

Effective as of January 1, 2009, the employer shall ensure that an assessment is performed to determine potential exposure to an electric arc for employees who work on or near energized parts or equipment. If the assessment determines a potential employee exposure greater than
2 cal/cm2 exists (see Neal, Bingham, and Doughty [B59]), the employer shall require employees to wear clothing or a clothing system that has an effective arc rating not less than the anticipated level of arc energy.

[PA BEN]

OSHA's new rule for Employer provided PPE. Will require the employer to buy FR clothing.

[old lineman]

OSHA's new rule for Employer provided PPE. Will require the employer to buy FR clothing.

Is there a loop hole where the employer can just say, "we don't supply our workers clothes", and he's home free? If they are supplying clothing now they may stop in the future.
Surely OSHA is wise enough to smell that rat from afar.


As for Trampbag's comment about 100% cotton not burning. What planet is he on?
Numerous tests have been done in laboratories around the world that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt it burns.
In fact on lab a report I read it states that it is worse than synthetic because as synthetic burns it shrinks and parts, sparing grevious 3rd degree burns in some areas. Cotton on the other hand doesn't shrink.
It just remains in place and cooks the wearer. Seen it myself and it isn't pretty. Don't buy it.
Why not Google for the lab results? Westex is a large supplier who must have these reports.
The Old Lineman

[thrasher]

Hate to rain on your parade but the new OSHA PPE rule specifcially says it DOES NOT APPLY to FR clothing NOW. The reason is right now FR "does not contribute to an injury" OSHA does not have a protection requirement yet. So FR clothing is not PPE per OSHA. The new PPE rule does say that the new 1910.269 rule, when published, will change FR to PPE and will require an arc rating evaluation to be preformed. At that time, arc rated clothing will become PPE and will have to be supplied by the employer.
Blackley; There are exceptions to the NESC rule which will become critical for southern utilities during the summer months. Read Exception 1 under rule 410 A 3. "If the clothing required by this rule has the potential to create additional and greater hazards than the possible exposure to the heat energy of the electric arc, then clothing with an arc rating or arc thermal performance value less than that required by the rule can be worn."
We will be using this exception during the summer to avoid heat stroke.

[candysmith]

Some people says, bag is the good friend of woman. As a woman, I always want to change a new bag during a period of time. I found the bags on are very fashional. I like it.

[FBOD]

The only bag these guys are interested in is a lineman ditty bag. Good bye Candy!

[rob8210]

That was just kind of bizarre. Thanks for getting rid of it. As for these Fr clothes, I wear them because I am required to , not because I believe in them because I don't. In a safety meeting at a utility some years ago , they had a sales rep from AGO come in to praise this stuff. I just had to tell him my story, in front of everybody. A couple of years earlier I was part of a two man crew washing out underground submersible vaults, single phase 27.6kv. The last one I did, we had removed the grates, these vaults had a drain in them so we washed from the top down until the drain cleared. This one as soon as I had washed the collar the lid blew right off the can, I was only arms length from the blast, which was over 2 stories high. I dropped the spray gun and threw my arms across my face. The only burn I got was about 2 inches wide on my right arm just above my wrist where the glove I was wearing pulled away from my long sleeved shirt. The AGO rep was so pleased that the clothing saved me from further harm,,, until I told him I was wearing denim shirt, pants and overalls!!! Boy did his face drop. As I said I wear FR because I have to, but I have always had concerns about the chemicals they use leetching into my body, and none of them have been able to absolutely deny the possibility.

[T-Man]

rob, you were very lucky and I'm glad you didn't get hurt worse. FR has somewhat of a misconception in that people tend to think it's like wearing armor and you can't get burnt. This is not true. FR is designed to not stay lit afire after you are removed from the source. Now that will happen correctly if
1. you keep it free of grease and oil.

2. you wash it alone acording to instructions like no softener and keep it away from lint of other clothes,

3. you replace it on a regular basis.

rob, you were lucky your denim didn't start burning and you became a human torch. Fr is supposed to help reduce that chance.
In all Fr is just a better alternative to what we used to wear , but it's not as comfortable and a pain in the keester to maintain.

You may have something with the chemical leeaching thing but I never heard of anything like that.

But if you complain too much about it the industry has a habit of going overboard and you'll soon be wearing those heavy space suits with the welder helmet and dark flash supressing glass, like some contactors wear changing circuit breakers in distribution cabinets.
Some battles you loose just try to win the war.:cool:

Work safe and go home smarter than when you started the day.

[hotwiretamer]

rob, you were very lucky and I'm glad you didn't get hurt worse. FR has somewhat of a misconception in that people tend to think it's like wearing armor and you can't get burnt. This is not true. FR is designed to not stay lit afire after you are removed from the source. Now that will happen correctly if
1. you keep it free of grease and oil.

2. you wash it alone acording to instructions like no softener and keep it away from lint of other clothes,

3. you replace it on a regular basis.

rob, you were lucky your denim didn't start burning and you became a human torch. Fr is supposed to help reduce that chance.
In all Fr is just a better alternative to what we used to wear , but it's not as comfortable and a pain in the keester to maintain.

You may have something with the chemical leeaching thing but I never heard of anything like that.

But if you complain too much about it the industry has a habit of going overboard and you'll soon be wearing those heavy space suits with the welder helmet and dark flash supressing glass, like some contactors wear changing circuit breakers in distribution cabinets.
Some battles you loose just try to win the war.:cool:

Work safe and go home smarter than when you started the day.

We were just issued our FR pants from Tyndale last week. I'm a little dissapointed in the way the waist stretchs out half way through the day! The salesman told us get them 1" bigger in the waist and 2" in the inseam. They don't shrink like Levi's! What sucks is we were also told that once you washed them, you couldn't return.
I have a feeling I will have a couple of hydraulic fluid mishaps with these pants, and have to order new ones!!

[topgroove]

I here ya hot wire, I've got the Tyndale jeans too. Have ya noticed there's a little more room down in manland compared to Bulwork? Either that or my package shrunk:confused:

[lewy]

That was just kind of bizarre. Thanks for getting rid of it. As for these Fr clothes, I wear them because I am required to , not because I believe in them because I don't. In a safety meeting at a utility some years ago , they had a sales rep from AGO come in to praise this stuff. I just had to tell him my story, in front of everybody. A couple of years earlier I was part of a two man crew washing out underground submersible vaults, single phase 27.6kv. The last one I did, we had removed the grates, these vaults had a drain in them so we washed from the top down until the drain cleared. This one as soon as I had washed the collar the lid blew right off the can, I was only arms length from the blast, which was over 2 stories high. I dropped the spray gun and threw my arms across my face. The only burn I got was about 2 inches wide on my right arm just above my wrist where the glove I was wearing pulled away from my long sleeved shirt. The AGO rep was so pleased that the clothing saved me from further harm,,, until I told him I was wearing denim shirt, pants and overalls!!! Boy did his face drop. As I said I wear FR because I have to, but I have always had concerns about the chemicals they use leetching into my body, and none of them have been able to absolutely deny the possibility.

We had a course put on by EUSA & during that course he showed us some video on tests done on FR clothing as well covering some accidents & after seeing that I am a firm believer that FR clothing makes a big difference if you are in a flash.

[rob8210]

I have seen the videos too. But did you ever hear of a good salesman? That would be the kind to sell ice to eskimos. It wouldn't surprise me that there was a little doctoring to make the results look as dramatic. I only know what happened to me. I wear the clothing because it is required, not because I have any faith in it besides I know of a case where a fella got a burn inside his overalls. My guess is the fr wouldn't let the hot item burn through the material, so it burned his skin instead.

[spark and bark]

well, fr is mandatory for our coop out of local 77. The other local utilities are making it mandatory and is supplied by employer. it is ok, as long as a calorie count/flash rating test hasn't been done yet. Wearing a long sleeve shirt, sweatshirt and raingear in a substation to get a hold in a switching house sucks @ss. I had my partners pants catch on fire paralleling secondaries, and its not fun. FR is a good thing!

[duckhunter]

I have seen the videos too. But did you ever hear of a good salesman? That would be the kind to sell ice to eskimos. It wouldn't surprise me that there was a little doctoring to make the results look as dramatic. I only know what happened to me. I wear the clothing because it is required, not because I have any faith in it besides I know of a case where a fella got a burn inside his overalls. My guess is the fr wouldn't let the hot item burn through the material, so it burned his skin instead.

A person can get burned inside of his FR if the flash is hot enough. FR does not stop heat transfer, it does not burn after the flash goes away. If you have something poly on under the fr, it will still melt depending on the arc size and duration.

[Bowline]

It's FR which stands for " fire retardant". Any other material inside of it or out will ignite or melt. Don't wear a SBATTs on your sleave cause shit is full of methane. BOOM

[spark and bark]

one question the tyndale rep wouldnt tell us is-
How many washes before fr loses its value?
What type of contamination lessens its value? (such as pvc glue, creosote, hydro oil, chicken grease?)
Is adding a stitched company logo devalue the fr?

I guess the big one is the wash one for me. I would think the chemicals they put on it would bleed out after a while.