Keeping those hearts tickin'

[BigClive]

let's keep the defibrillator talk up.

Humans really have one significant weakness with electricity (apart from their juicy interior). The heart consists of a large number of muscles which pump together in sync and it takes just a narrow range of current at just the right time to knock those muscles out of sync and in that instance they all beat at different times and the heart doesn't work properly. Manual CPR is more designed to keep blood flowing in the body by physically compressing the heart area until medical assistance arrives, the only really effective thing to get those heart muscles beating in sync again is the defibrillator. It does this by monitoring what's left of the heart beat and then applying a single pulse to make all the muscles contract in unison and knock them back into sync again. the time from a heart going into the uncontrolled state (fibrillation) to getting it started again is crucial. It's much better to apply the treatment there and then than wait for paramedics, particularly if you are in a remote area.

Honestly, if this was a machine for getting your bike or truck going you'd have no problem using it. It just seems to be the "medical" association that puts men off. I can understand this, I'm a big guy and I don't like "medical stuff" myself. Once we get over that hurdle and accept that it's just a routine bit of linemans kit for a first aid box then lives will be saved.

Imagine putting one of these on a buddy who'd had a shock and the thing showing an irregular heartbeat. Imagine the feeling when it did it's job and the heartbeat came back solid and you realised you'd just saved his life....

[duckhunter]

Well stated Clive.

Nollaig Chridheil agus Bliadhna Mhath Ur!

[shaun]

We just had our re-qual CPR training and I have to say to was top notch this year. It used to be done by our safety coordinator but this time they went outside the company and it was IMO money well woth spending. The usual training was kinda a joke and I don't know if it's just the MACHO attitude we sometimes show or the fact that we had to kiss the dummy or whatever but this time we had questions from guys that I'd never expect to be interested. (You know the type) Those AED's are kick ass and a life saver, no, a necessity. Not only did they show us adults but kids, infants, and the proper way to respond to situations where normally it would have been madness. I don't care who you work for, how macho you are, or what the budget says (I know that's stretchin it) but these things save lives and should be a requirement if you're dealing with what we do. Talk to your supervisors and let them know if they aren't already onboard. Let them know the talk that's goin on and pay attention to detail fella's. This is one of those things that's awesome to know, don't have to be applied strictly at work, and hopefully we'll never have to actually use any of the stuff we learned....but if we do, we're ready!

[scammy]

a sunday in nov , my brother ,lineman steve made contact withe 7200, ,,,this came 2 weeks after we practiced poletop resque,,,he was on the pole , we had backyard bucket and a man on the ground, we are still unclear as to exactly what happened, he was working on de energised secondary ,,it was a wind storm, we think a branch or vine made contact with primary to secondary. ,,but if it could go right it did , the first responder ,,after poletop resque was a police officer who had a defibbulator machine ,,careflight was on a return run ,directly overhead ,,within 3 minutes,he was bound to the hospital,,,he lost a finger ,,but we didnt lose him ,,we are so lucky,,I asked if we could have these devices ,,and they are thinking about it ,, what do they cost ,,,?

[dwalla-walla]

Georgia Power put AED's on our trucks about a year ago. We have one on all of our buckets and a few through out our building where I work. They even gave on to the Union Hall. They have alredy saved two people. One of the guys in our repair shop where they rebuild and test transformers, had a 4kv contact. They used the AED on him and it brought him back. It wasn't long after the Hall got theirs that someone had a heart attack and it worked on him. There was one other case where a crew tried to use one on someone that had a heart attack in their car but it was too late for him. All of this happened with in a few months of us receiving them. We also have trainer models we can practice with when we do our CPR training.

[old lineman]

Georgia Power put AED's on our trucks about a year ago. We have one on all of our buckets and a few through out our building where I work. They even gave on to the Union Hall. They have alredy saved two people. One of the guys in our repair shop where they rebuild and test transformers, had a 4kv contact. They used the AED on him and it brought him back. It wasn't long after the Hall got theirs that someone had a heart attack and it worked on him. There was one other case where a crew tried to use one on someone that had a heart attack in their car but it was too late for him. All of this happened with in a few months of us receiving them. We also have trainer models we can practice with when we do our CPR training.


Hooray for Georgia Power.
What puzzles me is that here is a prime example of a progressive utility that is fostering a Safety Culture that must have started at the top. We all know you can't push a rope up hill.
Why wouldn't OSHA be interested enough to send a group of reps there to learn something about what is required to run a safe and efficient utility that provides ample training and equipment for their staff.
With the state of affairs we see on this site and the lack of educated OSHA investigators and inspectors it only seems logical something needs doin'.
Right now we seem to have 'dumb and dumber' trying to regulate something they don't know sh-- about.
We'll never get anywhere at this rate. The carnage will go on, meanwhile lots of kids are being orphaned and lots of widows are left out in the cold.
Hasn't anybody got any gumpsion in this organization.
The old Lineman

[BigClive]

The cost of the things is not that high in relative terms. I think they are in the region of 1000 UKP which probably means they are a thousand bucks in the USA.

It's probably worth showing this thread to the management of the other power companies. If they see Georgia Powers results they might see the light.

Being a "tramp" (apparently) I'm pretty tempted to buy one myself to carry around the jobs I work on. As I see it the cost is small compared to some of the test equipment you can buy throughout your working life.

[tramp67]

OSHA tends to operate very slowly, and even if you do manage to get them to make some sort of change that you ask for, they probably will have so much red tape mixed in that you wish you never asked. Our local Unions, on the other hand, take the time to put proper language in our contracts that almost anyone can understand, and the Union has the power to enforce contract violations in a timely manner. Maybe the requirement of having an AED available to each foreman, on specific vehicles, or what seems to be most beneficial, and justifiable, should be incorporated into our contracts as part of the working conditions requirements. Possibly this would be even better if it could be a requirement sent down from the International office. I know this wouldn't be an overnight thing, and it would take even longer for it to affect non-union companies, but as many of us are aware, a lot of the OSHA rules that we have are things that originally came from the labor organizations and someone in the government actually realized that, hey, these are good ideas. I'm sure some of you reading this are in a position where you have a good understanding on how something like this could be done, what would we need to do?

[old lineman]

I'm not poking holes is your post Tramp67 but you and I know that as long as this thing is union driven it isn't ever going to reach lots and lots of hard working linemen. Some locals are weaker than others and some shops aren't organized.
They shouldn't be left out of the loop.
The only time this thing will happen is when the guys in the the BIG ivory tower see the merit.
A strong case can be made for the adverse effects of electrical current on the myocardial impulses. CPR was adopted for this industry in 1952 because of the high mortality rate and the general public all benefitted from this discovery.
Fifty years later if OSHA was really serious about saving lives they would acknowledge the benefits of the AED's and write in rules that have to be followed by ALL utilities and their contractors nation wide.
Doing this piece meal will take decades and perhaps many decades to accomplish.
I say go for the throat on this one. We've lost too many and are losing more each week. It's high time to move the goal post.
AED's won't save everybody but generally they have a 65% success rate where CPR has only 3%.
The Old Lineman

[mscheuerer]

The cost of the things is not that high in relative terms. I think they are in the region of 1000 UKP which probably means they are a thousand bucks in the USA.

It's probably worth showing this thread to the management of the other power companies. If they see Georgia Powers results they might see the light.

Being a "tramp" (apparently) I'm pretty tempted to buy one myself to carry around the jobs I work on. As I see it the cost is small compared to some of the test equipment you can buy throughout your working life.

B.C., thats great brother!!! except to where I got to the last sentence...??? Lets hope and pray you'l never have to use it on yourself unless you have a ground man that can apply it to you. Otherwise we may have to make up a billboard on your line truck that says: "ATTENTION: If you see me laying unconscious near my truck theres is an AED in the jumpseat. Grab it and place the wires on my chest and press button. Thank you." I saw those accident pictures you posted. Stay safe out there!

[dwalla-walla]

You're right Old Lineman. Our safetey department showed them to us and I think we got one or two for the building first. A few months later, probably in the fiscal year after the first ones, they started distributing them to our trucks. We put them on our buckets first and sometime this year we got more for the trouble trucks and underground trucks. Somewhere along the way they plan to have one on all of our vehicles.

[BigClive]

B.C., thats great brother!!! except to where I got to the last sentence...??? Lets hope and pray you'l never have to use it on yourself unless you have a ground man that can apply it to you. Otherwise we may have to make up a billboard on your line truck that says: "ATTENTION: If you see me laying unconscious near my truck theres is an AED in the jumpseat. Grab it and place the wires on my chest and press button. Thank you." I saw those accident pictures you posted. Stay safe out there!

You can bet I'd show it to everyone I worked with and let them know how to use it. That way if something happened while I wasn't there they could use it themselves.

I'm not sure about using one on yourself. There have been many instances where a spark received a shock and remained conscious despite their heart being put into a state of fibrillation. One that comes to mind the guy was found in a sitting position with a packet of cigarettes and lighter at his side. They reckoned he got a bad shock and sat down to light a cigarette. Technically you could use it on yourself in that situation, but I think you'd really have to clench your teeth as you pushed the button. :)

[BigClive]

So which brand and model did Georgia power choose?

I ownder if there's a ruggedised version specifically aimed at linework. (There should be!)

You know how to really get the message home? Tell the defib companies there's a fat market just begging to be tapped and they'll set the salesmen loose on the utility companies. ;)

[old lineman]

Big Clive I can't understand why you think these units should be built more rugged for this industry. They all come in their own fitted hard plastic case.
Specializing them would just drive up the cost.
They can only be used once a rescue has been completed, the victim is on the ground.
Trained workers who understand the capability and the necessity of this life saving tool would treat it with respect.
They will be transported in a designated space that is conspicuously labelled on each line truck and only brought out for inspection, servicing and for actual use (perhaps and hopefully never).
These things are in police cars, on fire trucks, used by ski patrols, in mines, in aircraft, and on and on.
I don't believe we need to have units specifically designed for this trade which will drive up the cost big time.
We should applaud any utility who commits to this program. Actually the cost of the units is the cheapest thing about them because the cost of training and re-training will far out pace the initial cost of the unit.
Let's just push where we can to get them and forget about trying to re-invent the wheel.
The Old Lineman

[BigClive]

I suppose that if they spend a lot of time in transit in other service vehicles then they are pretty rugged. With modern electronics there's not much to get knocked loose anyway. I was thinking more of a ribbed rubber enclosure, but then it's not like they are being used regularly like a meter.

[old lineman]

I suppose that if they spend a lot of time in transit in other service vehicles then they are pretty rugged. With modern electronics there's not much to get knocked loose anyway. I was thinking more of a ribbed rubber enclosure, but then it's not like they are being used regularly like a meter.

Now were thinking alike. The KISS principle.
The Old Lineman

[LinemansGF]

I completely agree with you guys on these difibulators, we were told that if one of these had been used on Vic that there was a good chance he wouldn't have died. But they were with the foreman's in their trucks and who knows where the foreman's actually were when he got electrocuted.




a sunday in nov , my brother ,lineman steve made contact withe 7200, ,,,this came 2 weeks after we practiced poletop resque,,,he was on the pole , we had backyard bucket and a man on the ground, we are still unclear as to exactly what happened, he was working on de energised secondary ,,it was a wind storm, we think a branch or vine made contact with primary to secondary. ,,but if it could go right it did , the first responder ,,after poletop resque was a police officer who had a defibbulator machine ,,careflight was on a return run ,directly overhead ,,within 3 minutes,he was bound to the hospital,,,he lost a finger ,,but we didnt lose him ,,we are so lucky,,I asked if we could have these devices ,,and they are thinking about it ,, what do they cost ,,,?

[BigClive]

Then perhaps you ladies are in a very good position to make yourself a thorn in the side to slow utilities to make them provide more to their guys.

I guess this must be a tough couple of days coming up for you. All our thoughts are with you ladies and your families over Christmas.

[thrasher]

Thought you guys might like to know our coop just purchased 3 AED's (one for each crew) and the price was $1,660 each including the carry case. Clive you might want to know the case is rated for submersion in water to 2 meters (6'6'' for us americans). These are from "ZOLL Medical" model AED Plus with the Pelican carry case. They are being assigned to the lead lineman of each crew, it will be his responsibility to take it out on the trucks they are assigned that day. Next year we will probably buy some extra for use in a major storm when we break the crews down into smaller groups. This is a start.

[BigClive]

Sounds like that might actually be the ruggedised linemans version. :)

(Incidentally, we work in both metric and imperial measurements in the UK.)

Is it this model?

http://www.zoll.com/product.aspx?id=75

[BigClive]

There's plenty of choice in defib units (AED's) on this site:-

http://www.aedprofessionals.com/

I can't believe how much the price of these things has plummeted. They really are at a one-per-truck price level now!

A quick search for UK suppliers suggested that UK companies would probably be a lot cheaper buying these things from America! (Bigfoot?)

[thrasher]

Big Clive:
The unit you showed on the first post looks like what we had demonstrated here. We also have a Phillips unit in the office but in our opinion it was not built rugged enough to survive on a truck everyday. We did get references from some other utilities and two fire departments about the Zoll units. This included one company that dropped the unit in it's case off the side of a pier while pulling out other material from the same bin. They fished it out of the water with a long stick and a hand line, the inside of the case was still dry.

[tramp67]

Sounds like that might actually be the ruggedised linemans version. :)

(Incidentally, we work in both metric and imperial measurements in the UK.)

Is it this model?

http://www.zoll.com/product.aspx?id=75

How do you differentiate between Imperial gallons and US gallons? Kinda like litres and quarts, isn't it, one is a litre bit more than the other?

[BigClive]

How do you differentiate between Imperial gallons and US gallons? Kinda like litres and quarts, isn't it, one is a litre bit more than the other?

I don't know how much is in a US gallon, but a UK gallon of cider is far too much in one session. :)

UK gallon about eight pints I think.

[mscheuerer]

Found this article in Decembers issue of EC&M - Pretty much sums up what Big Clive has been talking about here, especially with the introduction of the new difibrillators. Take a look when you get the chance.

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_postelectrocution_acts_save/

[shaun]

How do you differentiate between Imperial gallons and US gallons? Kinda like litres and quarts, isn't it, one is a litre bit more than the other?


Conversions: http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/facts-slides-self/facts/gen-peapp-conv-table.html

[BigClive]

Found this article in Decembers issue of EC&M - Pretty much sums up what Big Clive has been talking about here, especially with the introduction of the new difibrillators. Take a look when you get the chance.

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_postelectrocution_acts_save/

It looks almost out of date already. The defib units are much cheaper now.

I like the recommendation that electrical workers should never work alone. Yeah right! I wish!

Has anyone niggled their management about getting AED units recently?