Tell me it isn't so

[KingRat]

Line crews were replacing a 25 kVA transformer with a 50 kVA transformer, redoing the services fed by the transformer, and installing two new services. In the course of the work, a crew chief decided to realign a cutout. He went up in the bucket with leather work gloves only. As he placed both hands on the cutout, an arc occurred. He received burns to both hands.

Hey, loodvig, have you seen this? National grid eastern division-Dec. 21

[graybeard]

Rat
You saying that he only had the fuse tube out with the line side still hooked up?

[lineman345]

yes,thats how i understood it

[loodvig]

Line crews were replacing a 25 kVA transformer with a 50 kVA transformer, redoing the services fed by the transformer, and installing two new services. In the course of the work, a crew chief decided to realign a cutout. He went up in the bucket with leather work gloves only. As he placed both hands on the cutout, an arc occurred. He received burns to both hands.

Hey, loodvig, have you seen this? National grid eastern division-Dec. 21

No I didn't see it. Being retired I'm out of the rumor loop now. Where did this guy work? I have to side with you on this one K-Rat. A pretty stupid move!

[lineman345]

eastern N.Y. was acrew chief

[BigClive]

Sounds like a brain fart to me. One of those incidents where he simply forgot to put on the rubber gloves.

Someone mentioned a while back on this forum about not wearing their leathers unless they have their rubbers on. That way they are less likely to get caught out.

[graybeard]

We've made it a habit when changing o/h tubs to allways lift the hot line clamp also. That way man in the air shouldn't get in trouble. Still have to allways be watching out for each other.

[loodvig]

I thought 'we made it a habit' of wearing rubber gloves in a primary area. I hope the man is OK, but that was a dumb fukin move on his part!

[KingRat]

This is a good example why we had to go to the ground to ground rubber glove rule- is it the same in other parts of the country? Crew chiefs should be setting an example, even the most experienced can make mistakes, thats why your groundman has to be paying attention and it has to be taught.

[lineman345]

everyone lOOk out for each other

[Trampbag]

Groundman, hell, they’re a thing of the distant past. The few around are not professional groundmen, can’t tie knots and rarely look up or into a hole and don’t know what they see when they do finally look at the work.

Ground to ground gloves is an eastern thing, mostly. I’m from a sticking area originally and there isn’t a pair of rubber gloves on the claim. There also aren’t a lot of these kinds of accidents. I’m convinced that the ground to ground glove rule causes complacency around live lines and leads to these kinds of accidents mentioned above.

I have worked in many locals that have the rule and one thing I noticed is that few hands that train with gloves and stay in the area are competent with sticks of any kind. Hands that use sticks don’t reach into the danger zone as often, it happens but it is rare.

It is cheaper and quicker to train a lineman to use his hands (covered in rubber) than it is to learn to do work with chopsticks.

[mscheuerer]

I thought 'we made it a habit' of wearing rubber gloves in a primary area. I hope the man is OK, but that was a dumb fukin move on his part!

I could'nt have said it better myself. And this guy was a crew chief? That says a lot.

[topgroove]

This is a good example why we had to go to the ground to ground rubber glove rule- is it the same in other parts of the country? Crew chiefs should be setting an example, even the most experienced can make mistakes, thats why your groundman has to be paying attention and it has to be taught.

Hey Kingrat was this a National Grid lineman or a contractor? not that it matters that much, my prayers go out to my injured brother, but our training would surely force us to wear our gloves and sleeves in this senario.

[BigClive]

This isn't a new scenario. It doesn't matter how much training you get, you can still have your mind on other things and do something unexpected. It's just unfortunate that in live linework it tends to result in explosively life affecting results.

Think about it. Glove workers handle live conductors routinely on a daily basis. they just get used to doing that. They'll also get used to handling dead conductors with bare hands or leather gloves. It's actually EASY to get too familiar with the job and have an unpleasant result.

[KingRat]

Hey Kingrat was this a National Grid lineman or a contractor? not that it matters that much, my prayers go out to my injured brother, but our training would surely force us to wear our gloves and sleeves in this senario.
Grid lineman I believe, it came through our weekly safety bulletin and it should matter thats the second time in less than ayear. You guys should start watching and helping each other rather than trying to police us contractors- sorry I had to put that in- but you know its true.I have to agree with trampbag, we carried our rubbergloves and know when to put them on. We didn't have to put FR clothing on when we got out of bed. You guys that have been around can see whats going on, they are trying to IDIOT proof linework with all these rules and safety. But don't get me wrong, all that FR and gloves, sleeves, glasses, etc. just saved the life of one of our lineman because he had a -what did you call it? brain fart- no excuse. Another incident, another safety rule. You can't pin all the blame on these new groundman either, its up to us to teach them right. Tell them why their covering that chance cutout or why they should move that phase first- not just because your their crew chief. We need lineman, its a dying breed- lets turn it around. Hope everybody had a good christmas .

[Bigheadnc]

Grid lineman I believe, it came through our weekly safety bulletin and it should matter thats the second time in less than ayear. You guys should start watching and helping each other rather than trying to police us contractors- sorry I had to put that in- but you know its true.I have to agree with trampbag, we carried our rubbergloves and know when to put them on. We didn't have to put FR clothing on when we got out of bed. You guys that have been around can see whats going on, they are trying to IDIOT proof linework with all these rules and safety. But don't get me wrong, all that FR and gloves, sleeves, glasses, etc. just saved the life of one of our lineman because he had a -what did you call it? brain fart- no excuse. Another incident, another safety rule. You can't pin all the blame on these new groundman either, its up to us to teach them right. Tell them why their covering that chance cutout or why they should move that phase first- not just because your their crew chief. We need lineman, its a dying breed- lets turn it around. Hope everybody had a good christmas .

havn't you guy's ever worked with a lineman that you called the human jumper? it's just a matter of time. teach each other and the younger generation to do linework right. you can't have a rule for every incident.

[Trampbag]

I work with younger linemen and few of them will go up a stick or in a bucket with a handline. No matter how much you tell them that a handline is essential to the work and a lifeline in case of an accident they leave them in the in the truck, or worse, I have run into crews that don’t have one on the truck.

(Handline is a 5/8” rope line double the length of the height of the pole with a running block. Don’t laugh. I have had to explain it before. Many “linemen” try to call a handline a piece of peeline they pull material up to them when the bucket doesn’t go down and pick it up. Naught.)

Groundmen just don’t exist today, certainly what I would call a groundman. Because the crews are so small today and there is so much pressure to produce when exactly does anyone have time to train the ground help. Hell, a quarter or more of the linemen can’t tie knots properly, how does anyone expect a groundman to learn???

KingRat is right. Linemen are a dieing breed, in more ways than one. We are dieing on the job and the job is dieing. Ask Big Clive how much O/H distribution exists where he is. In most of Europe there are very few O/H lines, except transmission and a lot of that is going U/G.

In 50 years there won’t be any O/H at all in built up areas anywhere, if it takes that long.

[BigClive]

Ask Big Clive how much O/H distribution exists where he is. In most of Europe there are very few O/H lines, except transmission and a lot of that is going U/G.

True. In the city the only overhead you'll see here is between the street lights, and that's going underground too.

In rural areas it's still OH though.

[edski104]

here there is a push for putting 25 miles of overhead feeders underground as long as the towns involved can come up with half the money. then the company has to match it. all so everything looks pretty. it's all right along the water,so if a hurricane hits,everyone thinks that the power will stay on because the lines can't fall down. you can't tell them about corrosion or that everything is still fed by overhead. i just hate getting called out in the middle of the night for a bad neutral.:cool:

[Budda]

So what is the bottom line, did this Lineman make a mistake? or does their their work methods allow them to go into the Primary Zone. Such as the limits of approach.

I hope he makes a full recovery.

[loadbreak55]

:( First let me say how sorry I am to hear of yet another brother being hurt.It affects all of us differently when we read these postings.I for one am reminded to step back and take a few minutes more to plan my approach to a particular task after reading this.I can only pray that we all take our jobs a little more serious after hearing of these accidents!

[NU Limey]

I remember about 15 plus years ago as a lineman in progression trying to to turn a tllted cutout , 7200v Y, high side hot, low side dead . wires tangled within site down stream. I was wearing class 2 gloves, good for 20kv right, wrong. did I get a good belt across my body.Even when your thinking you have the right stuff on and all appears well. I was lucky then and never tried that again.

[adamr_41]

A good qualified observer could have prevented this accident.

[graybeard]

adamr
Are you talking about a behavior based safty program?

[old lineman]

I remember about 15 plus years ago as a lineman in progression trying to to turn a tllted cutout , 7200v Y, high side hot, low side dead . wires tangled within site down stream. I was wearing class 2 gloves, good for 20kv right, wrong. did I get a good belt across my body.Even when your thinking you have the right stuff on and all appears well. I was lucky then and never tried that again.

Well, well NU Limey you mention that you got belted about 15 years ago. Across the body while wearing class 2 rubber gloves.
That's impossible if you were in an aerial device unless you were making contact with another potental. Surely you know that's a no, no.
You didn't elaborate but if you were standing on a pole which could allow this scenario to occur. What the hell are you talking about 15 years later and not admiting that you were making a huge error trying to work 7,200 off of a pole.
The limit is 5KV and has been for eons. That's 2,400 to ground (the pole itself).
Even this is being contemplated whether it is to be outlawed because the safety factors just aren't there. A diving board would get rid of the second point of contact.
The Old Lineman

[rusty]

To One and ALL,

We have all made mistakes in this trade, and many of us have gotten a second chance and MANY DON'T! I find it some what strange a Brother with this kind of experience would make that bad a judgment, but we have ALL seen or heard of it happening. We could possibly be missing some information?? I know it is a pain in as* and it slows down everybody, but GROUND TO GROUND glove rules have merit! If your out on a TOTALLY new line with no possible way for any of it to become, we all worked them with out our hot gloves, yet even then a little lack of communication when your ready to heat up the line, and days of working the same line without your hot gloves CAN “ AND HAS “ LEAD TO MAJOR PROBLEMS! If we ALL get used to doing it all the time with our hot gloves on, when we break in new Brothers they WILL NOT know any other way !!!

[tramp67]

Well, well NU Limey you mention that you got belted about 15 years ago. Across the body while wearing class 2 rubber gloves.
That's impossible if you were in an aerial device unless you were making contact with another potental. Surely you know that's a no, no.
You didn't elaborate but if you were standing on a pole which could allow this scenario to occur. What the hell are you talking about 15 years later and not admiting that you were making a huge error trying to work 7,200 off of a pole.
The limit is 5KV and has been for eons. That's 2,400 to ground (the pole itself).
Even this is being contemplated whether it is to be outlawed because the safety factors just aren't there. A diving board would get rid of the second point of contact.
The Old Lineman
If he was wearing gloves and working out of a bucket, he still could get a painful jolt through capacitive coupling if his leather protectors were wet, as happens sometimes during storm work. If he saw a tangle farther down the line, that could be the scenario. As far as working 7200 off the pole, in some areas of the country that is an acceptable practice. I've been on several conversions from 7200 to 14,400 where most work was back lot lines and we did all the work out of our hooks with everything energized, no Baker boards. Even checked with the Union hall, it is an approved practice, they follow what the utility rules. This was on a large IOU, customers in the millions.

[Stinger]

Rat works in the same grid area as LU104. I know what he is saying about all the safety bullitens and lessons learned sheets we get every week for our all hands safety meetings. The thing that bothers me the most about this incident it was less than a year from the other serious burn incident when a NG lineman got burned wearing leathers in the primary zone. Remeber that one RAT, the one in N.Andover.We had safety stand downs and the whole nine yards over that one, I just can't believe after that incident, someone's memory is that short!! I do hope this brother fully recovers.

[old lineman]

Talk about being all over the map.
No wonder one statement ends up with several responses. A statement does't make any sense to some of the readers while it makes perfect sense to anothers.
If we consider the task and the hazards they are identical around the world. The difference is in the way the linemen were taught, treat them and the local rules.
It's curious how there can be so many approaches to the same job.
Like my Dad used to say, "there's more than one way to skin a cat". More truth than fiction.
I think this is the source of many arguments on this site. They're endless.
eg. Gloves vs sticks
Ground to ground & lock to lock vs donning when appropriate
FR clothing vs natural fiber
EPZ vs bracket grounding
Gloves and sleeves vs gloves only
Fall protection for climbing wood poles vs free climbing
Limiting voltage levels while working from wood poles vs working higher
voltages EG. 7,200, 14,400, etc.
To me working high voltage (primary) from a pole is dangerous because in my view you have to do TWO things to kill yourself with electricty.
That's making contact with one potential different than another, then contacting the other.
A lineman working from a pole on hooks has already done one thing (grounded himself) now all he has to do is have one small 'brain fart' as Big Clive calls it with another potential and he's a goner.
Too bad we can't agree but it'll never happen with all these approaches to do the same thing.
The Old Lineman

[Trampbag]

You’re absolutely correct, OL. This trade has evolved in over 100 years in isolated areas where information was not freely passed, nor could it be, considering communications, or lack there of, even 50 years ago.

As I travelled around, and I believe those travels to be fairly extensive, I was amazed by the huge differences in the approaches to powerline construction and the work linemen did on those lines. Everyone, both engineers and linemen, were convinced they had it right and everyone else had it wrong. It took me a while to just shut my mouth and just do it their way, and that was pretty hard ‘cause I’m pretty opinionated.

You know what I found? There ain’t no right and there ain’t no wrong, just that there was different. Some of the difference made life a little easier and some made it a little tougher. It matters little which continent or what language is spoken when that switch is flicked the light comes on. Unfortunately electrical workers are still getting killed or injured everywhere, usually because of someone’s idea that this shortcut will work.

[old lineman]

In my opinion there NEVER will come a day when a lineman knows everything there is to know about this trade. I don't care if he comes from the east, west, north or south. You can always learn something from somebody even if he's younger than you.
That's why I say keep an open mind.
Don't discount what someone says because he wears a beard, long hair, has different colored skin or whatever else you see as a predjuce.
It's been my experience to see that linemen who have worked here, there, and everywhere have more good ideas that 'home grown ' linemen.
Here's an example: I knew this fellow from out west. He moved east and joined a utility that had only hired locally and everybody was brought up in their system.
All the locals raved about all the tricks of the trade this guy knew. To them he was a marvel.
He pulled me aside and said I can't believe these guys don't know more than they do, I'm so frustrated that I'm getting to hell out of here.
They're driving me nuts and he left.
Sad but true.
The Old Lineman

[tramp67]

I know I will never come close to knowing it all. I start every day knowing that I will learn something new. Working across the country has shown me many ways to accomplish the same task, some good, some great, some that leave me shaking my head. I feel that taking the time to tramp for a while before settling in one location is definitely time well spent. There's so many great linemen out there that I have had the pleasure to work with, and learn from. I try to share my experiences and ideas with the people I work with, and if I think I have a better way, I will try to get them to try it. The same goes for me, I am willing to give a different method a try as long as I feel it is a safe method. Sometimes, I look for a way out and hope for the best when I feel something will go wrong, but the local hands insist on doing it their way anyway. But, all in all, tramping has been a very valuable learning tool for me, as well as a great way to have the privilege of working with so many good people.

[old lineman]

You sound like you have joined this utility just recently. Already your showing signs of frustration.
I'd say it's time to have another look at your situation.
#1 You must have had to pack your bags to get where you are.
#2 Remember this utility has been in operation for over a hundred years and their system is working.
#3 Everybody hates the words, "well when I was back at such and such company". Thats the kiss of death.

Here's the way I read the situation;
You'll never win them all, but you surely don't want to lose them all.
Become one of them before you try to show them new things. When you see an opportunity to do something easier, do it and say nothing. Their not stupid, they'll see the benefit and try it themselves or ask you to show them. Then you can quietly start a conversation about how you do little things that someone else showed you. Let's face it you had to be shown. The only difference is that you were probably a lot younger than they are and you wanted to blend in. Remember your trying to blend in again, not reinvent the wheel
There isn't a human being alive that wants to 'work harder not smarter' even though you said it. But you can't throw out all of that history in one toss.
As for the rubber gloves vs. live line tools. I've used both and think highly of both technics. If you have the open mind you wish everyone else had you'll impress yourself how quickly you get good at it.
There is no way you can change this so learn to live with it. You've got to learn to pick your battles.
Don't you get paid by the hour?
Do you really care whether the job takes and hour your way and an hour and fifteen minutes their way. Same pay.
When your marching your not fighting.
I think you need to change your shoes to theirs and look at everything from their point of view to appreciate what motivates them to rebelle.
You may appear threatening to them, if you try to dominate the methods of work everyone with resent you and you'll soon have to pack you bags again.
I say 'WALK SOFTLY AND CARRY A BIG STICK'. What I mean is don't always try to push your ideas, just slip them in until they are your buddies and then they'll think your the best thing since sliced bread because contrary to what you said, "working smarter not harder ", wins everytime.
Good luck.
The Old Lineman

[PA BEN]

:D I know about the were I use to work quote. I'm very carefull about how I approch these guys. I know I'm the new comer 2 years now. My formen toped out about 7 or 8 years ago I toped out 20 years ago, there good linemen and very safe. I don't have a problem with my supperviser being younger then me. It's a good job and a good employer. I just have never met guys so stuck in there ways like this before. I'm not here to change the world, I do know that I need to change the way I do somethings to fit in and I have done this. I might have painted the wrong picture, it's not so bad,that I want to leave. It's bullheaded linemen. We all get that way sometimes. I was at my last utility for 22 years, this new job has opened my eyes to how I treated now comers at my last utility. I think it called "Getting your come up in" :D Again thanks for the advice.
You sound like you have joined this utility just recently. Already your showing signs of frustration.
I'd say it's time to have another look at your situation.
#1 You must have had to pack your bags to get where you are.
#2 Remember this utility has been in operation for over a hundred years and their system is working.
#3 Everybody hates the words, "well when I was back at such and such company". Thats the kiss of death.

Here's the way I read the situation;
You'll never win them all, but you surely don't want to lose them all.
Become one of them before you try to show them new things. When you see an opportunity to do something easier, do it and say nothing. Their not stupid, they'll see the benefit and try it themselves or ask you to show them. Then you can quietly start a conversation about how you do little things that someone else showed you. Let's face it you had to be shown. The only difference is that you were probably a lot younger than they are and you wanted to blend in. Remember your trying to blend in again, not reinvent the wheel
There isn't a human being alive that wants to 'work harder not smarter' even though you said it. But you can't throw out all of that history in one toss.
As for the rubber gloves vs. live line tools. I've used both and think highly of both technics. If you have the open mind you wish everyone else had you'll impress yourself how quickly you get good at it.
There is no way you can change this so learn to live with it. You've got to learn to pick your battles.
Don't you get paid by the hour?
Do you really care whether the job takes and hour your way and an hour and fifteen minutes their way. Same pay.
When your marching your not fighting.
I think you need to change your shoes to theirs and look at everything from their point of view to appreciate what motivates them to rebelle.
You may appear threatening to them, if you try to dominate the methods of work everyone with resent you and you'll soon have to pack you bags again.
I say 'WALK SOFTLY AND CARRY A BIG STICK'. What I mean is don't always try to push your ideas, just slip them in until they are your buddies and then they'll think your the best thing since sliced bread because contrary to what you said, "working smarter not harder ", wins everytime.
Good luck.
The Old Lineman

[rusty]

old lineman,

Once again well said and nothing but the truth, WELL DONE! But as I sat here reading your words of wisdom, it brought back the sad reality our trade now faces. That being the loss of the older Brothers and their years of wisdom. This is caused by many factors, mostly due to the ever increasing need for manpower and need for more power every where in this country. My personal opinion is if a company has a proven history of safe working practices, anything new to come in to that history must come at a pace that doesn't cause what kept them safe all these years to be compromised. Like I have always said, if it concerns safety and that means it is going to take longer, SO BE IT!

[Stinger]

The one thing I have always rememered from another Old Lineman " when you think you know everything, do us all a favor and go home so the rest of us will be safe" I learn something all the time. This is a good place for other ideas on how things can be done from a vast wealth of knowledge, experince, and in diffrent parts of the states and the globe. I consider everyone you guys on this net, union or non-union my brother.