FR clothing?

[PA BEN]

I just heard that the Feds will require FR clothing for all hot work starting January 1, 2008. Does anyone know if this new rule is just a shirt, or shirt and pants? Also those that are required to wear FR now, what are your requirements? Can you wear a cotton coat over a FR shirt? I ware 100% cotton. How comfortable is FR clothing to work in?

[thrasher]

The status of FR clothing is very much up in the air right now. There is a PROPOSAL (NOT FINAL) from OSHA to make FR clothing required for all hot work. This would be a change from the current standard where clothing cannot melt or continue to burn after the arc is out which increases the injury. In addtion the proposed standard requires the company to do an arc analysis to determine the level of protection. Depending on the fault exposure can be from level 0 (all cotton) to level 4 (full blast suit with hood and face plate). No allowance is made for heat stroke or liklehood of exposure. Also the equations for figuring exposure have two terms in them which are pure guesswork. Specifically the length of the arc and seperation from arc to worker.
The second factor is the new NESC codebook in section 410 A 3 requires companies to do a fault analysis and provide protection effective January 1, 2009 (not 2008). In the NESC fault analysis they have defined the length of arc and the seperation of arc to worker. In some states the NESC is legislated law and in others it is simply considered a consensus standard but not law.
Consequently most companies right now are waiting to see how the dust settles from all the arguements at the Federal level.
Personally I think if the rule passes as written we will be sending men to the Hospital with heat stroke or heat exhausation on a regular basis. Our company has already sent men to the emergency room twice with just the esisting rules.

[ZapCzar]

Right now we are at 4oz t shirt, with long sleeve FR shirt over it. Add 20,000 volt sleeves and 30,000v gloves , and we are way past just uncomfortable , we are at dangerous levels when heat and humidity is high.The company is at present paying for all.

[BigClive]

I have to say I approve of modest levels of flash protection, since I'd rather see a burned shirt than burned skin.

Maybe the answer is to incorporate some form of air flow aid to keep the insides of the gear cool and dry. Remember the little fan device I posted to this forum a while back? Something like that might be workable. Better still it's not hard to make one yourself to adapt to a specific requirement.

I just had a hunt and here's the original post...
http://ww3.powerlineman.com/lforum/showthread.php?p=25888#post25888

[thrasher]

Clive; just to make myself clear. I have no problem (and in fact support) banning nylon etc that melts. Also I have worn cotton for years, before it was required. I even admit that wearing ONE layer of FR on the outside is probably worth the hassle for the extra protection and the fact that one layer, which may be the only layer, doesn't create the heat problem. However I very much oppose putting workers in two or even three layers of FR in Southeast summers. When the temperature is in the nineties and the humidity is in the nineties you do not need or want multiple layers on you. Hot, irriatated (pissed off) people get in a hurry and make mistakes. People facing heat exhausation do not think clearly, they make mistakes. I honestly believe the rule as proposed by OSHA right now will make things less safe and not more safe.

[leiching]

Ct we wear fr clothing both pants and shirts. The clothing is mostly treated cotton. We get 500. a year for clothing through Tyndale fr clothing. We have FR rain gear and fr outer wear for the winter months. It is not hotter than regular cotton in the muggy summer months. And IT Works!!

[thrasher]

leiching: I won't argue whether a single layer of FR is hotter than a single layer of regular cotton. My point is the proposed code will require many people to go to MULTIPLE layers and in a few cases a full face shield.

[Space]

Personally , I'm not too sold on this . At least from what I'm hearing out of our company so far . Seems the cost is going to be passed on to the employee's and from what I hear , after 15-20 washings they lose thier fire retardent properities anyway . I don't know if this is a fact or not , as rumors are as plentiful as opinions .
I have done line work for most of my life and had an accident once of bucking phases , pretty big fire ball , but seems my personal clothes faired just fine , better than my protectors , rubber gloves , hearing and hand did .
I think as long as a fellows clothing is something that will not get entangled in equipment or sag into something hot below you , espeacially when wet with sweat or precipitation , it ought to be up to the indvidual .
When working for some of these contractors out here , fire retardent clothing is akin to swallowing a gnat and gagging at a maggot .
Space

[Stinger]

As CT said, up here in New England we wear one layer of FR. Pretty comfortable and it is one piece of PPE to add to our safety. I know exactly what Thraser is saying. I worked for CW in Virginia and North Carolina. If they start with layers on top of the rest of the shake and bake outfit there will be many heat injuries. In the summers down south the temprature and humidity is already in the 80's in the morning, by afternoon it is unbearable, to have to wear a couple of layers!!, I don't think so. I used to finish a 10-14 hour day completly exhauseted, not from the work, but from the heat, and that is wearing only one layer.

[tramp67]

Some of the FR clothing out there loses it's FR qualities the first time it is washed, and if you get the stuff greasy or oily, anything you use to get the grease out also removes the FR chemicals. I always try to wear 100% cotton, every layer. I even would wear my denim jacket in the middle of summer when in the primary zone. Now I end up on some utilities' properties that require FR long sleeves over FR tee shirts, and FR pants that are 15% nylon!! How crazy is that??:confused: :confused:

[poletop22]

Our rules are simple if its flamable don't wear it , if you have it on don't go up and if your up your coming down, bad enough thinking about flash burns or worse but melted nylon or burning nylon no thanks...

[BigClive]

The treated cotton flame retarding fabrics do lose their properties a bit when washed. You have to be careful how you wash them, but most just bang 'em in the washing machine. In the case of the "Proban" treated heavy cotton coveralls we use here, even with the treatment washed right out the boilersuits themselves are made of a much heavier than normal cotton so they still offer better protection than a thinner fabric and infinitely more protection than polycotton workwear.

[thrasher]

There are a variety of FR fabrics on the market today. The lightest and most comfortable are probably Indura and Proban, both of which are chemically treated cotton and can lose their FR if cleaned using the wrong detergent/bleach/cleaner.
That's why many companies don't allow their use and require inherently FR fabrics like Nomex, PBI, Kermel, and Firewear. All of these are made from thread that is FR. All are also hotter and don't wick persperiation well. But the companies view is they know it is still FR until it literally falls apart, laundry is no longer an issue. If you clean it and can still wear it it is FR. (Nomex for instance turns brittle and falls apart if bleached.)
So if someone tells you FR is same as anything else find out what they are wearing.

[PA BEN]

I heard yesterday that Oregon is suing the Fed's over mandatory FR clothing, saying that the FR rating should be different for hot stick States then gloving States. So the decision to implement it has been held back even longer. Has anyone heard this?

[wudwlkr]

OSHA has not issued their final version of the rules yet so how can anyone sue them over it? Besides the proposed rules don't say that you have to use the tables that OSHA (NESC) created. True the distribution voltage table was based on rubbergloving distance, 15 inches, from the arc. But it is perfectly permissable under the proposal to do your own calculations to determine your potential heat exposure. Heat drops with the square of the distance. If you double the distance the amount of heat on the worker will drop by a factor of four. If you are actually hotsticking then plug that distance into the calculations and you will see that much less protection is needed.

Also as a point of interest, the NESC FR rule, 410A3, has a clause in it that basically says that if you anticipate that workers will be exposed to greater hazards, i.e. heat stress, by wearing the full amount of FR required than he can wear a smaller amount. OSHA's proposed rule had no such clasue in it. Will be interesting to see what the final version of their rules look like.

[JulieF]

There is no date set in stone yet and no real word on what will get passed or when. I work for Bulwark, North America's largest manufacturer of FR clothing. You should not wear cotton over FR Clothing. Cotton can be worn underneath. The thing with cotton is the flame will spread even after the ignition source is removed. With FR clothing, it will not support combustion and the flame will self extinguish and char once the ignition source is removed. There are lighter weight FR garments on the market. Check out our website at bulwark.com. Let me be a resource. I am not on here to sell anything, just to clear any confusion about FR fabrics, treatments, etc. By the way, there is a temporary treatment out there, Proban FR7A that does wash out after 25 washings. Everything we manufacture is flame resistant for the life of the garment.

[bill]

NESC has post the new version for FR clothing. OSHA has not. The NESC version is pushing more Higher FR rated clothes for distribution work while gloving. Stick work the distance is increased to elevate higher FR rated clothing. We use FR clothing at butler. Pants and shirt APTV rating of 4.6, not to bad to wear. Weather can reach temps of 90 + 90 %+ Humidity. Winter clothing is also FR. Our company pays 70% we pay 30 % currently. The best thing is to have your company do their own arc fault test not the table. The highest arc fault will be on secondaries especially on volt transformers with a network for contious serves. Not many left, this will change alot

[west coast hand]

out here in calif the companys give out fr shirts pretty good and comfortable they are real thin so they are great in the hot weather they are just a long sleeve tee shirt with 2 buttons in the front. I always wear a fr jacket in the winter. they do say after you was them a few time it wont be fr anymore but who knows. No word on having to wear fr paints yet????

[77liner]

Your right Ben if the law mandates PPE then the employer should pay.
Dont they provide our rubber goods and any other safety equipment we need now? I agree it probably needs to be in our agreemnts.

[Patriot]

The feds should stay out of our business! I bet jump suits will be the norm unless you want to buy your own pants and shirts. WHatever is cheapest.

Also there is a study handed to OSHA contradicting equopentail grounding. Backed up by real studies, not trumped like the original tests.

[PA BEN]

The feds should stay out of our business! I bet jump suits will be the norm unless you want to buy your own pants and shirts. WHatever is cheapest.

Also there is a study handed to OSHA contradicting equopentail grounding. Backed up by real studies, not trumped like the original tests.

What study are you talking about?

[safetyupnorth]

Please be more specific about the study that OSHA has that states this type of grounding is no good. There are hundreds of utilities using this type of grounding to protect Linemen. If you have info it may save a life- or is it just a rumor-

Please reply

[mullet man]

the company i work for supplies you with the jump suits/cover alls, 15kv rated boots and hot gloves. with these jumpsuits you still have to wear the HVV over it. they are hot as hell too!

our local supplies you with other FR clothes, pants, shirts, sweatshirts (which are recalled) and coats. but you have too have a certain amount of 'A' hours accumulated before it is supplied.

you dont have to wear HVV if the shirt has the retroreflective stripes on it.

FR clothes are mandated here if you work on ComEd property.

[Viperexaf]

Most of the companies and utilities out there are started to mandate that you wear fr clothing, shirts at least, i do wear the bulwark fr shirts and long as you got a cotton t shirt underneath and somewhat of a breeze then they're not bad to wear. I've seen some old par workers wear long sleeve fr t shirts which they said was pretty comfortable. Either way these regs aren't gonna go away if anything like everything else they're gonna get more stiff on the use of this stuff.

[Dick Milton]

We have tried to tackle the issue of heat stress over the years following the company's decision to ensure FR coveralls are worn on all operational sites. The impact on the hot glove teams was incredible. Initially we issued free drinking water and cool boxes and introduced frequent breaks to help with dehydration.
We then completed field trials on many cooling systems and ended up with 'cool shirts'. A system used by rally drivers. Each crew member has 2 shirts and a complete cooling system with spare coolant cans available from stores. In the UK we have fewer hot days than most but with global warming its getting hotter year by year. The kit has been welcomed as an option by all crews.

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/products/ProductDetail.asp?cls=MSPORT&pcode=CSHKK-C

[duckhunter]

The major player in the OSHA decisions about fr and arc-flash clothing is the IBEW, so before we blame too many others maybe we should get some answers from our union people on the OSHA committees.

[Patriot]

I hope we don't have to go to those colored jump suits, it is hot enough with the shirt on.

[PA BEN]

Employer provided PPE. (your employer has to provide per. OSHA) FR clothing and hooks and belts, etc.

[wudwlkr]

At this time FR clothing is not PPE. There is currently no OSHA regs that require your clothing to protect your from specific levels of heat in an arc, only that your clothing does not make any injuries worse. When 1910.269 and 1926 Subpart V revisions are ever finalized and published then FR clothing may become PPE. But until then the question of who pays for FR is up to negotiation between employer and employees.

[PA BEN]

OSHA ISgoing to make FR clothing PPE provided by the employer. The new OSHA law will start sometime in 2008.:D

[mainline]

Tyndale is my companies vendor of choice. They have gotten better with time. The carhart Fr clothing seems to be bullet proof. Tyndales line has increased in quality and price over the years. We get 350.00 a year which buys half of what you need. Pants are 50.00 to 70.00, shirts are 35 to 60. Carhart bibs are 250. The allowance doesn't go far, and even are safety guys have said there is a neglible difference between natural fibers and FR. Tyndales catalog addresses the washability issue. Depending on fabrics you get from 25 to 50 wash cycles. So you pretty much have to replace everything every year. The allowance doesn't cover that so we are basically all wearing non FR after a year. Also don't use fabric softener. I think its a good sales for work wear companies. They have created a need, now they have a captive audience. There are only so many vendors and they can charge 2 to 3 times as much as for a comparable all cotton or wool garment. I think by the time osha gets done with all of this new regulating our job will be so miserable you will never be able to convince any one new to take it up. Picture it gloves, sleeves, three layers of FR and a flash hood. What next a scott air pack ground to ground.

[graybeard]

What we've been told is that after the 1st of the year FR is PPE and steel toes and safty glass's are not. Meaning the Co. will no longer have to pay for all or part of either boots or glass's. Doesn't seem right that either of those would not be considered PPE.

[thrasher]

OSHA has published a final rule regarding PPE and who pays for it. I will not attempt to cover 90 pages of preamble and 4 pages of actual rules in this space but the short version is: If OSHA requires an item of PPE that is not so personal that it can be issued to the next employee then the employer pays for the minimum item. Specific exceptions are; standard protective toe work boots and prescription safety glasses (personal), logging boots (exception under the law by congress), ordinary clothing and skin creams(i.e. sunblock), and ordinary winter clothing.
At this time and until the new 1910.269 is published FR clothing is NOT PPE though the rule says it likely will become PPE with the new 1910.269 rule whenever it is published.
New PPE rule classes climbing belt, safety and gaffs as PPE. The rule specifically says the company is NOT liable to re-imburse emploee's for PPE they already own. Also the employer sets the standard of what meets the requirement and supplies that item. The employer is not liable for ANY portion of the cost if the employee wants an upgraded item (such as a wider belt, gut strap, or second safety). Pay attention, the employer does not have to pay anything for a non-company issue item.
Employer must replace PPE that is worn out or damaged with two exceptions: (1) If the employee losses a piece of PPE the company can charge the employee. (2) If there has been obvious abuse or malicious damage the company can charge the employee. An example given was an inspector caught a crew using a climbing harness to tow a pickup out of a mud hole.
Obviously these rules will go to negoiation for some issues such as partial payment against upgraded equipment but the company is NOT obligated to supply anything but the minimum.
The preamble goes over lots of specific cases and examples of what is and is not legal.
The rule actually has a start date of Feb 13, 2008 but OSHA will not enforce (i.e. write fines) until May 15, 2008.

[Linemanblood]

How many of you work for a company that requires you to climb poles with an device that prevents you from falls. Does this go for the apprentice only or does it go for all lineman?
Our company is trying out a few devices and they are saying it may be made madantory for all lineman. I can't stand the thought of going to this device after climing free for 25 years.
It seems it needs to be something for the apprentice lineman for a set amount of time or till he/she demonstrates their climbing ability without the device.
:( :( What are we turning our lineman into? :confused: :(

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[bredpit]

Hhhmmm, i agree with Tramp. "Some of the FR clothing out there loses it's FR qualities the first time it is washed, and if you get the stuff greasy or oily, anything you use to get the grease out also removes the FR chemicals." It harms the FR clothes and make them unusable.