Screwups I have witnessed,or been party to.

[dbrown20]

#1. Grn. strap not removed on power pot.

#2. Wild leg placed on lighting leg.

#3. Rotation wrong on 3 phase secondary.

#4. 277/480 hooked delta on the secondary side.

#5 120 volt light hooked on wild leg.

#6. Light wired 240 and hooked to 120 volts.

#7. Primary cross phased while gloving it.

#8. Wye primary accidentaly grounded while gloving it.

#9. Saw a 167 KVA hung using a 1/2 inch poly dacron rope sling.

#10. Automatic sleeves used on wrong stranding wire.

These are a few, how about some of youse guys?

Bonus question for Brian (500's app.) Brian you have 2 phases of wye URD primary going to a 2 pot pad mt. bank. A contractor cuts both URD phases. When you arrive with the necessary splicing materials, it is impossible to tell which phase went where. What do you do? No, the answer is not to call 500. You have to figure it out yourself. dbrown20

[Trampbag]

277/480 pad mounted transformer with 7 runs of million lume secondary. Connected and heated up.

Poof, transformer gone. Gotta be a bad transformer so let’s go back to the shop and get another.

Connected and heated up second transformer.

Poof, transformer gone. What the hell????

Oops, mix upon the secondary runs.

Send out another crew with the third transformer.

1st crew?? To da hall.

[jerseyslave]

Ok trampbag, I have no idea what you are talking about, What is this lighting circuit you are talking about? arc lighting?

[Trampbag]

It’s not used in the N/E. I think you use 347/600. California uses 277/480.

It’s a pad mounted 3 phase 4 wire transformer. They use multi runs of secondary when the loads are heavy, say 500 or 1000 KVA or bigger, and if you use secondary runs that are all black insulation, not red yellow blue, you gotta look real close to discern which phase is which or ring it out and tape it. In the case I’m referring to there was a light line (blue, brown, red) on the jacket, but it is hard to see.

Obviously one, or both, of the linemen working on the secondary didn’t know to look for the colors and just started connecting and the foreman must have been asleep and didn’t check the crews work.

Apparently the foreman didn’t check into the whys neither because the secondary was hooked up exactly the same with the second transformer causing it to burn out as well. Not one, but two expensive transformers smoked.

In this situation the foreman has to be on the ball because I have seen many inexperienced apprentices and linemen attempt to do the same thing. It pays for the foreman to use phasing tape and then get someone reliable to check his work so this mistake cannot happen .

The same crew cut a million 12kV cable while still alive a week or so before the secondary incident. The GF kept his job although he shouldn’t have. Same GF had crews involved in equally stupid incidents over the next few years. Strange how they get the wrong people in a one man layoff.

[shaun]

#1. Grn. strap not removed on power pot.

#2. Wild leg placed on lighting leg.

#3. Rotation wrong on 3 phase secondary.

#4. 277/480 hooked delta on the secondary side.

#5 120 volt light hooked on wild leg.

#6. Light wired 240 and hooked to 120 volts.

#7. Primary cross phased while gloving it.

#8. Wye primary accidentaly grounded while gloving it.

#9. Saw a 167 KVA hung using a 1/2 inch poly dacron rope sling.

#10. Automatic sleeves used on wrong stranding wire.

These are a few, how about some of youse guys?

Bonus question for Brian (500's app.) Brian you have 2 phases of wye URD primary going to a 2 pot pad mt. bank. A contractor cuts both URD phases. When you arrive with the necessary splicing materials, it is impossible to tell which phase went where. What do you do? No, the answer is not to call 500. You have to figure it out yourself. dbrown20

I've got some too Brownie, but could ya explain #4 for me? I'm not sure what you mean. (could be the ST. Patties day beer tho..)

[topgroove]

I've got some too Brownie, but could ya explain #4 for me? I'm not sure what you mean. (could be the ST. Patties day beer tho..)yea that one would be hard to pull off around here.277\480 are strickly wye secondary with only two bushings on the secondary side.I suppose you could **** that up if you tried and turn it into a straight 480 bank.hopefully they removed the ground strap on all three tubs.

[dbrown20]

read Topgroove's post. He's partially right. I don't think you would have a straight 480 bank though. Wait until the beer fog leaves your brain Topgroove and you'll see.

Naw we used to get pots without a groundstrap and you had to install a pot lug in that little spot below the bushing and add a piece of wire for the ground. Also I don't remember on this particular incident if it had ground straps to start with anyway. dbrown20

[topgroove]

what do you say the voltage would between secondary legs. i'm thinking 480 between any two legs as long as no ground strap is connected.may have two ground the wild leg.

[dbrown20]

what do you say the voltage would between secondary legs. i'm thinking 480 between any two legs as long as no ground strap is connected.may have two ground the wild leg.

I'm absolutely not going to communicate with you while you're in this condition. Have you considered treatment? dbrown20

[topgroove]

REHABS FOR QUITERS... Hey I'm Irish and I have had a few beers today but back to the question. If you did wire it inside inside, inside inside, outside outside, with no ground straps installed and grounded the wild leg would you not have 480 between any two legs?

[dbrown20]

Do they have random drug testing at your workplace? If they do, I would strongly suggest that you call in sick Monday and Tuesday. Maybe by then this stuff will have worked it's way out of your system.

Okay, break out a pencil and paper and make a drawing of 3 pots with 277 turns connected delta on the secondary side. What will your nominal secondary voltage be?

Boy if little Brian gets hold of this he will put you to shame. dbrown20

[tramp67]

Didn't something seem odd when you had no place for your neutral conductor?:confused:

[dbrown20]

Didn't something seem odd when you had no place for your neutral conductor?:confused:

Who said a neutral conductor was involved? You and Topgroove been partying together? I guess we'll have to turn this over to Brian. dbrown20

[LINETRASH]

Here are a few of my least favorite things:

A streetlight hooked up on the wrong (dead) side of the secondary breaker.

hot line clamp installed with a screwdriver.

a drop cutout barrel fuse keeper nut torqed to 500 lbs.

splitbolts (dumbass narrow back) installed at the weatherhead. (alum svc to cu load wire)

asshole contactors who replace a padmount transformer and leave the fault indicator in the dirt.

A tx switch installed where the load stinger is inches from and crosses under the arrestor ground. Critter killer. C'mon dude, move somthin!

A tx cutout installed about 3 inches above the tx , on the same side as the tx, making refusing with an extendo impossible.

Incapsulated (elbow) fuses in a vault 7 feet in the ****ing air, where all but the tallest guys have to get a ladder, sheesh!

A meter room unsecured in a bad neighborhood. Stepping over squatters, tripping over smashed meters, steering clear of open sockets, smelling the sweet smell of urine, aahh!!!

Stupid custumers who make me rush to their house to check a low or down catv or bell drop. Wire down my ass!! (Actually, I have found out that my spanish speaking custumers consider "low" and "hanging" and "open fuse" the same as "down") hilarity insues!!!

Any condo president. (Young man, I know what the problem is, follow me!) To the meter room when I know its the tx.

Well, I may have drifted from ****ups a little, but I am sure there are those who share my pain.....

[topgroove]

Do they have random drug testing at your workplace? If they do, I would strongly suggest that you call in sick Monday and Tuesday. Maybe by then this stuff will have worked it's way out of your system.

Okay, break out a pencil and paper and make a drawing of 3 pots with 277 turns connected delta on the secondary side. What will your nominal secondary voltage be?

Boy if little Brian gets hold of this he will put you to shame. dbrown20OK my buzz wore off. the tubs are allready in a AC BD configuration so hooking it up delta is out of the question.

[dbrown20]

Okay. The proper connection on the aforementioned bank was to have been Delta/Wye. The highside delta and the secondary wye. It was incorrectly hooked Delta/Delta. The transformers were 277/480, 2 secondary bushings, and since they were hooked in an ungrounded, straight delta configuration, they gave phase to phase----------- volts? Can I make it any plainer? Wait until Brian shows up, he will clear it all up for you. dbrown20

[topgroove]

I Guess you'ld get three useless legs of 277

[topgroove]

phase to phase

[20x]

Linetrash,
Why does it have to be "asshole contractor"? What about the asshole troubleman that goes out on a URD call and forgets to take parking stands and dust caps with him and leaves the elbows in the dirt in the TX and the bushings uncovered with no caution tag to warn the next guy (contractor) that is going to open the TX to fix everything?

[dbrown20]

277/480 pots are not in an AC BD configuration. A 277 pot has only one secondary winding that is continous from one end to the other. 277 turns from one end to the other. Brian I thought you would be of some help here, but you flubbed the other one about the bad UG feeding that 208 platform bank. I swear. dbrown20

[topgroove]

ok that's good to know... never opened up a 277\480 can up.so what was the secondary voltage on the bank they wired up delta? 277 phase to phase?

[dbrown20]

You don't have to open the lid on one. Just look at the tag on the hanger. Yes, it was a 277 volt delta hookup. If you had something that used 3 phase 277 I guess it would work. dbrown20

[dbrown20]

Brian, put your left hand on your right shoulder, and your right hand on your left shoulder. Now screw your head out of your ass!!

By the way Brian I gave you a bonus question on the first part of this blog. dbrown20

[topgroove]

You don't have to open the lid on one. Just look at the tag on the hanger. Yes, it was a 277 volt delta hookup. If you had something that used 3 phase 277 I guess it would work. dbrown20 PLEASE WOULD YOU STOP TYPING SO LOUD ... my f-ing head is pounding.:( :( :(

[Space]

Rotation wrong , another crew I was working with argued for over an hour about what was wrong , I kept telling them to swap the 120 legs , finally the foreman said try what space said , bingo :D

duplex splice taped with one layer of tape and layed on streetlight bracket , amusing it was .

No wheel chocks , had no Idea the little guy could run so fast , we where parked in a farmers field , micro lock leaked off and there went the Pole Cat headed for the creek , truck had about a fifty yd. start , I would have bet a hundred dollars to a doughnut she was creek bound , but he caught her, we where in stitches watching this .

fresh snow , Lineman and Foreman loaded SP arms accross the utility bins and drove down a steep hill , hehe , no back window .

In western W.Va. saw a lineman cut a wrapped guy right under the primary , grunt was putting hoist on the guy at the time in morning dewed honeysuckles , fireball at the top of the pole and smoke and rolling grunt at the bottom , how he came out uninjured is beyond me . Of course we raised hell with the foreman and got the lineman shitcanned , was his 3rd or 4th fireball and we where sick and tired of the foreman making excuses for him , this time it almost cost a life .

Grunt and Lineman racing in to showup , grunt had 5-6 eight foot X-arms on top of utility bins , light turned red , he slammed on brakes , thank god noone was in the intersection , looked like wooden torpedoes shooting accross that intersection . I was in the bucket behind these clowns with jaw dropped .

I was putting down outriggers on a bucket that required climbing into the back of the truck , hollered watch your toes and a second class walks right up and stands on a outrigger pad to reach something , by the time he screamed and I backed the outriggers up , his foot was smashed to the point of the meat being mashed off the bones . Felt absolutely terrible , but I did holler watch your toes and he said he heard me , just thought he could make a quick grab .

I was hanging a set of gang swithches on top of a 50-55 or something like that , had them hanging off my boom under the bucket , boom stretched out to the hilt to reach , grunt throws some sawed off cross arms on back of truck , all at once my bucket felt like it was falling over , I screamed down what the F*#* is going on !! as I looked down I saw the crossarms lieing on the outrigger lever , talking about puckering your butt , man did I come unglued on that jerk .

Was working a tower with a lineman , double deadend , hook ladders tied off out as far as they could get them , Sammy on one side me on the other , finnished it up , hollered down for the grunts to let our ladders in , my grunt untied my side and let me in easy , I was lighting a ciggerette looking over at Sammy who was doing the same when all at once his ladder swung in under the tower arm and he went backwards in his belt arms flailing in the air about 3-4 inches from the ladder when the slack came out of his belt , eyes as big as a Q-ball , finnally he grabbed the ladder shaking something awful , broke his ciggerette , and I was laughing like a damned fool . I don't know if Sammy wanted to kill me or the grunt the most . He had a new grunt and noone had instructed him , so when he untied sammies ladder he undid her and let her fly . Sammy had a bad case of the shaked naturally , but he was in a hell of a shape after that , I think I ended up having to light a ciggerette for him , god was he hot . I still laugh about that , but I have to admit , if the shoe had been on my foot I wouldn't have thought it to funny either .



God only knows of the stuff I could think of if I set down and tried , and these where incidents I personally saw , LOL

[tramp67]

Who said a neutral conductor was involved? You and Topgroove been partying together? I guess we'll have to turn this over to Brian. dbrown20

Silly me! I guess in your world, you hook up wye services with just three wires. :eek: I suppose the customer derives their neutral connection from the water pipe, and expect you to hook your secondary neutral up to the ground rod, with no neutral conductor between your bank and their disconnecting means.:confused:

[dbrown20]

Silly me! I guess in your world, you hook up wye services with just three wires. :eek: I suppose the customer derives their neutral connection from the water pipe, and expect you to hook your secondary neutral up to the ground rod, with no neutral conductor between your bank and their disconnecting means.:confused:

DELTA, DELTA, DELTA, DELTA. The bank was supposed to be a Delta/Wye hookup for 277/480 four wire service. It was incorrectly hooked DELTA on the secondary side. This was actually an irrigation bank that really didn't a neutral anyway, but it was INCORRECTLY connected ungrounded DELTA on the secondary side. After a voltmeter was applied it was seen that the only reading possible phase to phase was 277 volts. After changing it the foreman said. "I guess you're right." I said. "Hell, 277/480 is always Wye on the secondary side." Not DELTA. Not DELTA. Not DELTA. Not DELTA. Not, well anyway you get the message. dbrown20

[topgroove]

hey tramp, the crew was supposed to build a delta primary 277\480 wye secondary bank. they ****ed up and built a delta primary, delta secondary. on a delta secondary there is no nuetral.one of the hotlegs will run a little higher than the other two. you put a ground on that leg.its called grounding the wild leg.we use quad on services like this and the nuetral is mearly used as a mesenger not connected to ground.

[topgroove]

oops I see mr. brown and me both posted at the same time.

[dbrown20]

It has been, but not so common anymore, to build ungrounded Delta secondaries. It has been, but not so common anymore, to build grounded Delta secondaries. I have worked where both were done. I think the metering requirements delegated what must be done.

To ground one leg of a delta is not called grounding the high, or wild leg, but is called corner grounding the delta. A high or wild leg is not present unless one pot is mid tapped to ground as on a combination lighting and power bank. The mid tap is grounded and so no other ground can be placed on the windings. If so. "Kaboom", will result. dbrown20

[topgroove]

yes corner grounding the delta is the correct terminology. I have heard people use the formentiond term incorectly and it stuck in my head. transformer theory has always intrested me. most lineman don't get the chance to build every type of bank out there.here at grid we won't even supply a new customer with a straight 240 delta anymore and never have we supplied a open delta to a customer, too bad cause theres times where it would be fit for the customer

[dbrown20]

In many parts of the country the Delta is quite common. I think I have seen most of the different wrinkles of the Delta. I'm sure there are some I have not seen.

One place I worked had a bank that I have mentioned before. They were both irrigation setups. With a 480 ungrounded delta serving an irrigation pump, sometimes these farmers and ranchers would acquire a pump that required 240 volt delta. What was done here was merely tapping the mid point of each transformer and that gave a 240 volt service run from the same transformer bank. So you had of course a 480 volt 3 phase and a 240 volt 3 phase coming from the same transformers. Sorta strange. What was strange is that it can be done from a 2 pot bank also. The 2 locations we had were both 3 pot banks however.

I had a friend once who worked in the Wash. D.C. area. He said the power co. there did not build any delta secondary. He said once they were required to build one and all the old hands were amazed. dbrown20

[thrasher]

We once had a contractor doing a two mile rephase/relocate job for us. This particular foreman was one of the worst I have seen and was later black-balled by the coop and escorted from the premises. Any way they had two 3 phase banks along this line to relocate. Both were 3 pot 120/208 banks. However one was being upgraded at the same time from 3-25's to 3-50's. Anyway the contractor came into the yard and picked up three transformers from the storage area and rolled out. We got a call from the customer (a large church) that evening that the organ was smoking and some lights were VERY bright. Serviceman rolls out and measures 120/120/277 phase to ground. He also measures 208/342/342 phase to phase. To make a lot of head scratching into a short story, it turns out the contractor hung 2 120 pots and a 277 pot all together in a Y-Y bank. Needless to say we bought a bunch of equipment in the church.

[Hemingray Insulators]

noticed the "question at the bottom of the first post now. well, i think i would have to look and see if there is any "writing" on the cable sheath to match up, if not i think i'd put a battery on one phase in each cabinet/trans whatever. and one end of the batery goes to ground. measure between the break to find which phase corresponds to each other and splice it................
is there an easier way to do it?

[topgroove]

there is a easier way.. both ends of the cable run are grounded. the break is exposed and the damaged cable is located and exposed. the cables are tested dead. after that the rest is easy. prepare the cables for the splice and cable identification is simply a mater of removing the ground from phase one on one side of the break and checking for contanuity between the conducter and the concentric. and than do the same thing on the other side of the break. never trust any markings on the cable... it could have been spliced out once before.

[dbrown20]

That was a no brainer. Think about it a little. If you don't figure it out I'll tell you. dbrown20

[tramp67]

3 phase delta secondaries must be solidly grounded, either midpoint or on one leg, unless the customer has ground fault indicating equipment installed in their service equipment. This is to prevent an unintentional grounding of one phase from going unnoticed. Usually only heavy industrial customers will have an ungrounded delta system, where the industrial processes will be adversely affected by interruption of power. Examples include foundries, large assembly plants, other continuous production operations.

[tramp67]

In many parts of the country the Delta is quite common. I think I have seen most of the different wrinkles of the Delta. I'm sure there are some I have not seen.

One place I worked had a bank that I have mentioned before. They were both irrigation setups. With a 480 ungrounded delta serving an irrigation pump, sometimes these farmers and ranchers would acquire a pump that required 240 volt delta. What was done here was merely tapping the mid point of each transformer and that gave a 240 volt service run from the same transformer bank. So you had of course a 480 volt 3 phase and a 240 volt 3 phase coming from the same transformers. Sorta strange. What was strange is that it can be done from a 2 pot bank also. The 2 locations we had were both 3 pot banks however.

I had a friend once who worked in the Wash. D.C. area. He said the power co. there did not build any delta secondary. He said once they were required to build one and all the old hands were amazed. dbrown20

Did you connect the X2 bushings of all three transformers to the second service for the 240 volt 3 phase? That connection seems to me as though it would give you a bastard voltage of 415 volts, phase to phase.:confused:

[LINETRASH]

You guys went off on a tangent not involving the thread.

It wound up in a pissing contest.

Whatever, I tried to post a reply to the thread only to find it had morphed to somrthing else....

It was a little frustating but I guess I understand insecurity.

Anyone care to talk about linework??

[dbrown20]

Did you connect the X2 bushings of all three transformers to the second service for the 240 volt 3 phase? That connection seems to me as though it would give you a bastard voltage of 415 volts, phase to phase.:confused:

Nope, just as they come from the factory. It wil give you a true 240 volt 3 phase delta. dbrown20

[dbrown20]

You guys went off on a tangent not involving the thread.

It wound up in a pissing contest.

Whatever, I tried to post a reply to the thread only to find it had morphed to somrthing else....

It was a little frustating but I guess I understand insecurity.

Anyone care to talk about linework??

Here's one for Linetrash (the Florida Legend). This is kind of puny so please excuse. We were once hanging a pot by pulling it up with a pickup and a handline. I did not pay close attention to the ground rigging where the chaps had secured a sheave with I thought a timber hitch around the pole etc. With a new guy on the pole he was having some difficulty landing the pot on the bolts. I decided to step astraddle the fall line to assist him. Bad mistake. At that time the rope holding the sheave at the butt came loose. Not a timber hitch but just wrapped the wrong way, you've seen people do it. Anyway the rope popped into my crotch with somewhat painful results. When we finally finished the men knew very well how to tie a timber hitch. Moral, pay close attention to hand's rigging, especially if they're green horns. dbrown20

[dbrown20]

At least a dozen times over the years I have seen pots bad ordered when they were good, and good ordered when they were bad. About all the effort required to make a good diagnosis was to climb the pole and remove the leads. It is trying on a person's temper to be called out in the middle of the night during a rain storm and change a supposedly bad pot on order of the troubleman, and then find out that the one you had just taken down was afterall good and the secondary was just grown up in a tree a few spans away.

It is very irritating to change a pot and then find out that the UG secondary was bad. Creates very bad Karma I guess. dbrown20

[dbrown20]

noticed the "question at the bottom of the first post now. well, i think i would have to look and see if there is any "writing" on the cable sheath to match up, if not i think i'd put a battery on one phase in each cabinet/trans whatever. and one end of the batery goes to ground. measure between the break to find which phase corresponds to each other and splice it................
is there an easier way to do it?

Dammit. Y'all disapointed me on this one. If you wil just think. However I didn't mention that this run of UG is a radial. That doesn't make any difference in the answer though.

Answer: It doesn't make any difference. Changing the phasing on an open Wye/Delta doesn't change the rotation. If you have a 2 pot bank, which this is, feeding from A and B phase and swap the pot on A to B and the one on B to A, the rotation stays the same. If this was in a loop then you would have to check the phasing at some point so there wouldn't occur a cross phase down the road. Simple to do though.

If it was a 4 wire UG primary then you would have to splice the wires back exactly in order not to screw up rotation. Would require a little more thinking and care. dbrown20

[topgroove]

Bonus question for Brian (500's app.) Brian you have 2 phases of wye URD primary going to a 2 pot pad mt. bank. A contractor cuts both URD phases. When you arrive with the necessary splicing materials, it is impossible to tell which phase went where. What do you do? No, the answer is not to call 500. You have to figure it out yourself. dbrown20

have to dissagree with you on this one.its easy to tell which cables go together.the first thing your gonna do is isolate the cables,test dead and ground at either end of the digup.expose the damaged cables, test dead.prepair the cable ends for the splice.wearing all approipete ppe have a crewmember temporarily lift the ground on one side of the break on phase one,ring it out or check with the fluke. no continuity beteen the cable and concentric. restore your ground and repete on the other side of the break.now you have corectly identified phase one and it took less than fifteen minutes.true in this case you could put them together any old way but this way the cable identification markings are accurate and troulble shooting a lot easier.wouldn't want to leave a trap down the road for someone else.

[dbrown20]

This was just a for instance sort of thing. I realize that with not to much trouble you could put them back just the same but I wanted to make the point that it didn't really matter in the long run. dbrown20

[topgroove]

that's fine...I just don't want brian to get it in his head he can just splice together urd any old way. he needs to keep his head straight and know how to correctly identify,isolate,test and ground. a lot of damn good lineman have been killed and injured working urd.

[dbrown20]

at the last time I talked to him via PM's was a sophomore in H.S. So 2 more years of High School, and perhaps 4 years as an apprentice perhaps. I don't think after 6 years he is apt to get into any trouble working on underground.

I personally have been in the trade 36 years. Although I have known of some people getting hurt, I cannot recall readily a "lot of hands getting killed" on URD. Maybe I missed a few here and there but I really can only think of one in the last few years. dbrown20

[shaun]

You guys went off on a tangent not involving the thread.

It wound up in a pissing contest.

Whatever, I tried to post a reply to the thread only to find it had morphed to somrthing else....

It was a little frustating but I guess I understand insecurity.

Anyone care to talk about linework??


My fault LT. Sorry. I got it. ( I love ST. Patties day) :o

[topgroove]

Although I have known of some people getting hurt, I cannot recall readily a "lot of hands getting killed" on URD. Maybe I missed a few here and there but I really can only think of one in the last few years. dbrown20

well that explains the cavalier attitude. Here at grid we had a fatality a few years ago and last week two workers were sent to the hospital. Just because you can't recall readily alot of hands being killed on URD don't think it dosen't happen.

[dbrown20]

No cavalier attitude here my friend. I feel sorry for anyone who is killed or hurt. Careless is as careless does. Maybe somebody else will chime in here but I just never recall "a lot of good hands" killed on UG. Fatalities usually stick out in my mind. dbrown20

[tramp67]

Nope, just as they come from the factory. It wil give you a true 240 volt 3 phase delta. dbrown20

Drawing out your scenario, a 480 volt delta bank, with x1 of tx #1 connected to x3 of tx #2, x1 of #2 connected to x3 of tx #3, and x1 of tx #3 connected to x3 of tx #1. I'm guessing these are 240/480 volt single phase pots, internal windings connected in series. This would give you 480 volts phase to phase. If I also pull a service off of the x2 bushings of the same bank, I would see one half of the secondary winding of tx #1 connected in series with half the winding of tx #2, and so forth. That would give me a nominal voltage of 415 volts. What am I missing?:confused:

[dbrown20]

Unfortunately linemen are taught transformer theory in a rote manner, myself included.

I first learned of this hookup from a GE transformer book. This was not your standard little GE distribution handbook that is so common and seen around so many shops. It was a GE Power Transformer book, more geared toward substation transformers. This particular hookup was just sort of an aside that was about 2 or 3 paragraphs with a couple of drawings. It might be possible to acquire one of these booklets from GE, I don't know.

When I worked in Wyoming we had 2 irrigation locations that used this hookup. They were all 3 pot locations and I recall that one was a Delta/Delta, don't remember on the other one.

The best way to prove it to yourself is to take a voltmeter and visit your nearest transformer bank. A 2 pot bank will suffice. Doesn't matter if it's mid-tapped or not, 120/240 or 240/480, doesn't matter. On a 2 pot bank take a reading from the X2 to the tie buss between the pots, that will be one phase. Then take a reading from the same X2 to the other bushing of the pot. That will be another phase. Then take a reading from X2 of one pot to the X2 of the other pot. That will be your other phase. On 120/240 pots you wil nominally read 120 volts, on 240/480 pots you will read nominally 240 volts. That's it. Some time I will find that book and maybe quote it. dbrown20

[thrasher]

Dbrown:
Topgroove mentioned the dangers of underground. While I only know of one fatality on UG in the last few years, I can think of 6-10 flash burns in the same time. The fatality was a crew was setting up to do a major switching to totally isolate a padmount 600 amp feeder switch. The lead was doing a tailgate at the "deadfront" switch to be isolated and, without his gloves on, was actually touching each elbow that was to be worked on while reviewing the steps. He touched one elbow, the crew heard a little spit sound and he dropped dead. Investigation found a pinhole on the top of the elbow nine inches along the surface from the concentric neutral. While there was some current leakage it was not sufficent to blow the 175 amp fuse on the dip pole. When we heard about this accident our company changed to "lock to lock" glove rule. I talked to one of the people from that company later and he said even after they knew where the pinhole was you couldn't see it without an infra-red camera.

[dbrown20]

It's all dangerous of course. From 120 volts on up. I just dispute someone making a blanket statement about lots of linemen killed on UG.

I started Electrical linework in 1971. I can remember 10 fatalities that ocurred with all the companies that I worked for. These ocurred while I worked for them and within a short time after I left them. All were overhead primary contacts except one. This was a man who was engaged in redoing terminations on a feeder exit cable in a cabinet on the side of a substation control house.

I can recall several contacts made on URD, but none fatal except the aforementioned incident. dbrown20

[topgroove]

I guess it all depends on what we percieve to be lots. I'm sure those of us here with over twenty years with a major utility can think of at least one urd fatality. I remember an accident at fpl where a trouble crew isolated a urd primary. and red tagged it. in the morning a crew chief was sent out to meet meter and test to thump the bad cable.His truck was in the garage so they gave him a different truck. He got to the jobsite and opened the padmounts and checked the tags. went to the truck and looked for a feedthrough device to test dead. none to be had anywhere on the truck. he did find a grounding prong. he went to the padmount pulled the elbow and attempted to unscrew the pin so he could install the grounding prong. the trouble crew had isolated the wrong elbow and it was still hot. when the fuse blew a customer looked out the window to see a man down smoking. they called 911 and rescue crews did manage to revive him. months and months in the burn treatment center and many surgeries later he got out of the hospital a double amputee. He lost both arms above the elbow. That's why I posted about the importance of cable markings identifing the correct cable, testing dead and grounding. Not simply splicing cables together any which way just because you could.

[dbrown20]

If you have an open wye urd running in a radial to a 2 pot bank I can't see where it would make much of a shit how you spliced them after they were cut on a digin. I do not worry about a kid who doesn't even have a driver's license getting bad habits from some posting on a web such as this when it is probably be 4 or 5 years before he is even allowed to touch live primary with a rubber glove. He needs to get through High School first.

You mentioned lots of people getting killed on URD and only came up with a contact that was not even a fatality. All I mentioned was all the fatalities I could remember over 36 years and all except one were overhead. dbrown20

[topgroove]

I did not go into details about the fatality but it happened about seven years ago a crew was waiting for a mark-up sitting in the truck .the switch gear was open. the new guy on the truck who was eager to please reached into the encloser for some reason and was killed instantly. the fpl accident partly resulted because the trouble crew isolated the wrong cable. the cable marking were wrong . that's why its important to make sure you always splice the right cables together.brian may be six years or more away but if your gonna teach him,teach him the way a lineman would do it.

[topgroove]

If you have an open wye urd running in a radial to a 2 pot bank I can't see where it would make much of a shit how you spliced them after they were cut on a digin.
You mentioned lots of people getting killed on URD and only came up with a contact that was not even a fatality. All I mentioned was all the fatalities I could remember over 36 years and all except one were overhead. dbrown20

You say it would not make mush of a shit how they are spliced after they were cut after a dig in?

well how bout the fact that the cable ends now have a 50 50 chance they're incorectly marked leaving a potential trap down the line for another lineman

you say I mentioned a contact that was'nt even a fatality. well thats true but the guy lost both his arms partly because the cables were miss marked ! I think I'ld rather be dead. I don't know about you but I'm pretty sure there's no one one this planet who's gonna wipe behind on a regular basis. No thanks can't see going through life armless and with a itchy anus. :confused:

[dbrown20]

how two direct buried URD cables being mismarked would lay a trap further down the road for someone? They are in a radial configuration going to 2 padmounts banked together in an open delta bank.

Furthermore anyone who depends on markings on cable is asking to be hurt. dbrown20

[topgroove]

how two direct buried URD cables being mismarked would lay a trap further down the road for someone? They are in a radial configuration going to 2 padmounts banked together in an open delta bank.

Furthermore anyone who depends on markings on cable is asking to be hurt. dbrown20
who knows what will happen down the road or what the next lineman is thinking. so I guess if the next guy that has work on that section has a brain fart and only isolates one of the cables and ends up with a hot elbow in his hand its his own fault he's dead. we all know most accidents are caused by not wearing your gloves and not following basic procedures but why would you want to knowingly leave a potential trap.

[dbrown20]

I will just have to state what I think. You are a dip shit and that's all there is to it. The original intent of that thing I started was just to see if anyone would catch the fact that rotation was not effected by the scenario. But you just carry and carry and carry this subject until there is no sense to it. Anyone who requires about a dozen replies to explain a friggen delta hookup which has been around since electricity was invented I guess does not surprise me.

Anyone who starts telling someone what dangers await them by just 2 blocking a hand line and picking up a piece of wire I do not know what to think. I just think I will comment no more on this particular silly ass subject. dbrown20

[topgroove]

you can't stand the fact that your wrong. I was mearly trying to explain the importance of having cables correctly marked but if your going to insult me and call me silly names it only reveals your true character. No wonder you've worked for so many different companies,makes perfect sence now. :D

[tramp67]

Unfortunately linemen are taught transformer theory in a rote manner, myself included.

I first learned of this hookup from a GE transformer book. This was not your standard little GE distribution handbook that is so common and seen around so many shops. It was a GE Power Transformer book, more geared toward substation transformers. This particular hookup was just sort of an aside that was about 2 or 3 paragraphs with a couple of drawings. It might be possible to acquire one of these booklets from GE, I don't know.

When I worked in Wyoming we had 2 irrigation locations that used this hookup. They were all 3 pot locations and I recall that one was a Delta/Delta, don't remember on the other one.

The best way to prove it to yourself is to take a voltmeter and visit your nearest transformer bank. A 2 pot bank will suffice. Doesn't matter if it's mid-tapped or not, 120/240 or 240/480, doesn't matter. On a 2 pot bank take a reading from the X2 to the tie buss between the pots, that will be one phase. Then take a reading from the same X2 to the other bushing of the pot. That will be another phase. Then take a reading from X2 of one pot to the X2 of the other pot. That will be your other phase. On 120/240 pots you wil nominally read 120 volts, on 240/480 pots you will read nominally 240 volts. That's it. Some time I will find that book and maybe quote it. dbrown20

Thanks, dbrown20. You are correct, this configuration works, and can be utilized on an open or closed delta system. The 240 volt service can only be an open delta configuration, the grounded leg of the 480 volt service must be the same leg that is grounded on the 240 volt service. This means both services are strictly three wire services, with one phase grounded. I imagine this is a very uncommon connection. Who said you can't teach an old dog new tricks?!:p

[dbrown20]

think dipshit is a silly name for you. I think it fits perfectly. As far as insult I think most dipshits would be insulted to know you share the same nick name.

You have no idea why I have worked a few places and no idea of what went on in my life at the time involved.

The best hands I have ever worked with had worked multiple places. They were so versatile and skilled I could not wait to experience them. These 2 county boomers I have worked with were always, "this is the way we've always done it", types . Couldn't stand them.

You need to get away from your little comfort zone job and find out how other people do this shit.

Your feeble excuse about marking cables etc. just further shows what you have experienced in this field.

Have a nice day. dbrown20

[topgroove]

think dipshit is a silly name for you. I think it fits perfectly. As far as insult I think most dipshits would be insulted to know you share the same nick name.

You have no idea why I have worked a few places and no idea of what went on in my life at the time involved.

The best hands I have ever worked with had worked multiple places. They were so versatile and skilled I could not wait to experience them. These 2 county boomers I have worked with were always, "this is the way we've always done it", types . Couldn't stand them.

You need to get away from your little comfort zone job and find out how other people do this shit.

Your feeble excuse about marking cables etc. just further shows what you have experienced in this field.

Have a nice day. dbrown20
Again... more insults, name calling and profanity. I starting to sence a little hostility here. To bad. we always had such engaging and entertaining conversations in the past. not sure what happened to you in the past to make you change jobs so often it must have been very unfortunate. I've worked at the same utility for twenty years now and it has provided well for my three beautiful daughters and wonderful wife.We work transmission,distribution overhead and underground but do not get into any two pot banks here. My supervisors are happy with my job performance and I'm generally well liked by the other lineman in the barn. If that makes me a dipshit well. so be it. I've never had an accident or got anyone else hurt.I've always been a helpful contributing member of this forum. I realize I will never have the vast knowledge and expierence you have but I have to wonder does that make me a dipshit as you say? I hope you some day can get a handle on your anger issues before it becomes the death of you. BTW here at the big utilities they frown at splicing urd cables together any way you feel like just because you can. And always remember Anger is one letter away from DANGER.

[dbrown20]

I am so impressed . dbrown20

[topgroove]

does'nt suprise me:D

[OLE' SORE KNEES]

I have dealt with "run burns" as we call them. It is where Primary or Secondary Cables have burnt together and you don't know what you got far as phasing goes,been there done that.Principal works for both,A long time ago a "CABLE SPLICER" had a run burn...where all cables burnt together and Hogan's Goat can guess where they go........he spliced out as he thought it should go(secondaries), 4 hours later he called for a O.H. pot, tx., kettle, or whatever you want to call it, me and another lineman delivered it, got it all hooked up and thrown it in and BANG !! Unknown Cross-Phase for the "SPLICER" She blew !!! , he told me go back to the yard and get another Tx. as that one was bad too. I told him to take a break as the Fla. Sun was getting to him. I left the tx. de-energized took the barrell out, taped it to the pole, took the secondaries out of the tx. and isolated about 10 meter pedestals (meters out) , he cut out the secondaries he recently repaired and as we rung out each pedestal , we found each correct phase and location, made correct repairs, and made work what cables were burnt. As the lights were back burning the Lineman I was with could'nt stand it anymore and yelled out as we were rolling away said "Cable Splicer my ASS", I don't know if the situation or not what you guys are talking about .....but maybe as far as URD phasing goes......have a good 1........

still climbing as seniority don't matter to me like the rest (Utility and Union)...not like a Local Construction Hall
Ole' Sore Knees

[topgroove]

in the case brown described it really would'nt matter short term. in the long term if the radial feed was expanded or god forbid turned into a loop feed the miss marked cabels could become a problem!

[PA BEN]

The best hands I have ever worked with had worked multiple places. They were so versatile and skilled I could not wait to experience them. These 2 county boomers I have worked with were always, "this is the way we've always done it", types . Couldn't stand them. dbrown20

Hay! I'm a two county boomer. I love to meet other linemen who can show me something I don't already know [work smarter not harder]. I've learned alot at my new utility, at my last utility was a City of 2400 people with a three man line crew the City I now work for has 22000 people and two full crews and 69Kv cool stuff. dbrown, I now know how I treated new linemen at my old utility["this is the way we've always done it"] It's very hard to bring something new here. I guess I'm getting my Come-up-en's:D

[topgroove]

carefull what you wish for there ben! read about mr.browns little fantacy about wrecking out six spans of 4\o cu transmission h-frames with a un-qualified crew, a handline and a 74 el'camino

[dbrown20]

It was not a fantasy. It actually happened. The only part that was untrue was the El Camino pickup thing. Worked for a power co. once where we wrecked out a 69 KV line such as I described and built a 138 KV in the same right of way. The only qualification you had to have on a de-energized and grounded piece of 69 KV was the ability to climb and do the work. They considered it a great piece of training for the apprentices. I agree. Sometimes people can be so cautious that they completely neglect the training of apprentices. I cannot see anything wrong with the scenario that I described. The apprentices enjoyed it and looked forward to doing the work. I dislike the attitude of ,"Oh you can't do that, you're just an apprentice." The only caution they had was anything doing hot work. Then an apprentice was supposed to be an apprentice and let the experienced hands do the work while they grunted or observed. That was it DS. dbrown20

[topgroove]

really? how bout the part where you un-belt and step out on to the middle conducter without knowing how many times it was used as target pratice?

[KingRat]

You guys have got to lighten up- Don't you both belong to the same club?

[dbrown20]

keep your safety around the arm. If you're scared join the church. Jesus, will you just let this go? What if lightening strikes? What if you have a stroke? A heart attack? What if you step on a cobra? What if your grunt has sabotaged your safety and it breaks with you? What if a tornado shows up and blows you and the pole down? What if an airplane crashes into the line? What if you have ptomaine poisoning from spoiled baloney in your lunch? What if an irate farmer has built a camoflaged tiger pit at the bottom of the pole and you fall into it? What if your grunt goes berserk and drives the both of you and the El Camino over a cliff? What if you scratch your hand and get blood poisoning? What if a terrorist has placed a bomb in the El Camino and when Hermie turns on the key it blows the both of you to kingdom come? What if a hit man shows up and mistakes you for his victim and blows your brains out? Did I leave out any possibilities? Oh yeah, the farmer owns an irate bull and it charges you and gores you to death. Maybe you'll survive this horrifically dangerous job and live to tell your grandchildren about it some day. What if while you're squatting and taking a crap in the woods a rattle snake bites you in the privates and Hermie refuses to suck the poison out? I hope you have adequate life insurance. dbrown20

[KingRat]

I think you might be pushin it with the cobra

[tramp67]

Actually, I think it was a Burmese tiger trap that the farmer dug at the base of the pole!:p Personally, I think I would rather step on the ancient conductor, once it stops changing from copper to ACSR than be one of the hotdogs that jump from the old pole to the new one rather than climb down and back up! I guess I just wasn't meant for the circus acrobatics.:rolleyes:

[Livewire]

Dbrown, Linework is not your only talent. You have a great gift of gabb. Didn't know you could type so fast.

[topgroove]

wow! a few more posts and I'll have you in that rubber room again with that nice jacket.

actually we were taught not to use hardware or conducters as a step the first day we ever strapped on a pair of hooks here at the big utility. We don't have any H-Frames that small around here anyway so you'ld never be able to pull that stunt off unless you legs were ten feet long. we use what's called a hook ladder.

[dbrown20]

Ever heard of a hook ladder breaking? Where is this "big" utility? Wow?

I forgot about the possibility of a piranha jumping from a brook when you step across it and biting thru an artery on your leg and bleeding to death.

Also the escaped circus elephant that charged and trampled you.

Show me a lineman who say he never steps on hardware and I'll show you a liar. dbrown20

[topgroove]

Ever heard of a hook ladder breaking? Where is this "big" utility? Wow?

I forgot about the possibility of a piranha jumping from a brook when you step across it and biting thru an artery on your leg and bleeding to death.

Also the escaped circus elephant that charged and trampled you.

Show me a lineman who say he never steps on hardware and I'll show you a liar. dbrown20

never had a hook ladder break.we're trained to inspect all of our equipment before and after every use.if a piece of equipment is found to be defective its red tagged and taken out of service. here's the little utility I work for
http://www.nationalgridus.com/

and I do wish you could control your elephants. they keep escaping your circus? and your clowns are out of control.they keep tripping the feeder every time they work on it.

[dbrown20]

I know who National Greed is. I used to work for the Federal Govt., a fair sized outfit, Pacificorp, a fair sized outfit, and also the AEP system, a fair sized outfit. Big is not always better.

I have never seen anything break. The people I have worked with have always been so careful that nothing breaks and none of them get hurt.

The sun is always shining and the sky is not cloudy all day. dbrown20

[topgroove]

I have never seen anything break. The people I have worked with have always been so careful that nothing breaks and none of them get hurt.

The sun is always shining and the sky is not cloudy all day. dbrown20

good to see your coming around mr.brown!
now don't you feel better after taking your medications?

[dbrown20]

I guess so but I can't find the clowns. Seems they all drug up and went east. Said they had found a job with a co. called National Grid. Sure gonna miss em. dbrown20