Are Catholics Christians?

[CenterPointEX]

Go up to any Post Modern Catholic Kid on the street and ask that question..."Are you Christian" I have... the response is "Why no... I'm Catholic"


I purport, that Yes! Catholics are Christians... Write CPX down as taking the position that Indeed! Catholics are Christians... That being said, I also understand the confusion of the Catholic Kid on the the Street and the Catholic whole sale production of Madonnas(the singer), OGBs(ours truly), and Swamps(Son of Catholicism)... The confusion comes when we use another authority than Gods Word for our Theology as do Catholics (Tradition), Mormons(Book of Moromon, D&C etc.) Etc. The Point of demarcation between Mormons and Catholics is that the Mormons put the BOM above the level of the Bible and Catholics put Tradition on the same level as the Bible. One preaches Christ Peppered with a foreign gospel and the other preaches a foreign gospel peppered with Christ... In both places one can come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ but it is harder to find in one place that the other. In both places if you go to God and ask, He will give it to you.
Are my parents frying for "eternity" CP? They were Roman Catholic remember. My parents were some of the most devote Catholics I've ever met in my life. Yet by what you proclaim as your "faith" and belief, my parents followed a flawed path of belief and are now in eternal damnation, for ALL eternity.


www.powerlineman.com/lforum/showthread.php?p=29260#post29260 (http://www.powerlineman.com/lforum/showthread.php?p=29260#post29260) ....... Swamp, being Catholic don't get you to hell or keep you out of it... Besides, you have stated you don't believe Hell exists anyway. Swamp, if your parents believed they were sinners in need of Salvation and trusted in Christs finished work on the cross as their only means of deliverance... then indeed they are with our Father in Heaven... Swamp, I have stated over and over also that the Catholic Church does teach the afore mentioned gospel... But,... The Catholic Church adds to the gospel another message derived from something called "Tradition".. Swamp... I am not unwilling to listen to reason corroborated with evidential support. Therefor I am not; as you proclaim, closed minded. You sir on the other hand, are not willing to listen or examine any evidence that does not support your religion.
! I find it humorous Swamp, that you take issue with me taking issue with the faith of your parents... Yet you believe the faith of your parents is BUNK! You do your parents a greater injustice than I ever thought about.

[NoName]

are Catholics.

Christians are what all the break away religions like to call themselves. When the Church of England decided to let the King of England divorce his wife against the church in Rome's blessing, the Church of England broke away from the Catholic church.

Then whenever the breakaway church's perishoners didn't like what the new church preached they decided to break away again. Again and again. But they like to feel they are one religion with just a tiny difference between them so they all call themselves Christians.

A Catholic is a Catholic. A Baptist is not! He is a Christian.

[CenterPointEX]

Swamp, first off you don't believe in Heaven or Hell so the question makes no sense. Why does it concern you where they are... According to your religion... the live... they die... and thats it... they are dust again...

Second...If I knew whether or not your parents are in one of those as you perceive non existent places... Then indeed I would be God... sorry to disappoint you Swamp... but I am not God nor will I ever be.

The Bible does tell us how to be sure if or not we are going to Heaven...



Originally Posted by CenterPointEX http://www.powerlineman.com/lforum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.powerlineman.com/lforum/showthread.php?p=29260#post29260)
www.powerlineman.com/lforum/showthread.php?p=29260#post29260 (http://www.powerlineman.com/lforum/showthread.php?p=29260#post29260) ....... Swamp, if your parents believed they were sinners in need of Salvation and trusted in Christs finished work on the cross as their only means of deliverance... Then YES! Yes! Yes! indeed they are with our Father in Heaven... Swamp... If they did not trust in Jesus finished work on the the cross then they are in Hell according to the Bible.

So, No name... are you telling me that Catholics are not Christians?
Did Christians not call themselves such in the first century?

[PA BEN]

No man can answer that question True or False. Only God knows the Heart of man. Even Ted Bundy Could be in Heaven if he received Jesus as Lord & Savior. I don’t have it in me to forgive a man like that but God can.

[PA BEN]

Just thought I'd give you two a break.:D You two can start in again, I'll be here on the side to jump in when needed.:D

[CenterPointEX]

Trying yer best to keep the

"Ten Commandments"

and living a good life is all you need to do to get to Heaven...... True or False


Come on People.... Does anyone else out there believe this... or is Swamp the Lone Ranger?

"Remember the Sabbath and keep It Holy"... "This is the Day that the Lord Hath Made Swamp... Rejoice and Be Glad In It"
God love you so much Swamp, "He sent His only Son to Pay the Penalty For Your Sin." Lucky for you Swamp, death could not hold him... and So we also with him as we died with Him, so shall we rise with Him on the Last Day... and thus We Proclaim as with Apostles the five hundred plus other eye wittinesses.

:):) "He Is Risen!" :):)

[duckhunter]

I am a born again Catholic. Whatever the denomination, if you claim CHrist as your Lord and Saviour, you are a Christian. Still a sinner, but a Christian.

[NoName]

Christianity is just a word put on it. By whom? When was that? In what Century? I'm not sure it was in 33 A.D.

The Jews called us Gentiles. You want to go by Gentillians go for it.

[CenterPointEX]

Trying yer best to keep the

"Ten Commandments"

and living a good life is all you need to do to get to Heaven...... True or False


Come on People.... Does anyone else out there believe this... or is Swamp the Lone Ranger?

"Remember the Sabbath and keep It Holy"... "This is the Day that the Lord Hath Made Swamp... Rejoice and Be Glad In It"
God love you so much Swamp, "He sent His only Son to Pay the Penalty For Your Sin." Lucky for you Swamp, death could not hold him... and So we also with him as we died with Him, so shall we rise with Him on the Last Day... and thus We Proclaim as with Apostles the five hundred plus other eye wittinesses.

:):) "He Is Risen!" :):) Surely someone knows the Response to He Is Risen?

[duckhunter]

Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!

[CenterPointEX]

It doesn't bear the mark of 666 either.
What an assumption you make CP. You're really a piece of work.

My Dad is Buried in Andersonville National Cemetary. He doesen't have the "mark of one who died in christ" either. I guess a simple cross on a headstone means you "died in christ".

But, you already told me anyway....He was a Catholic, so he didn't make it to heaven.

And you wonder why...people distance themselves from people like you. You're just a "Witness"....by another name....
Same type of one sided story of "Truth".

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, The Life... No man comes to the Father except thru me." The Words of Christ are better documented than any other historical figure from his era. So, Jesus of Nazareth was a Liar, Lunatic or Lord... Take your pick Swamp...


There's alot of people here that don't have the "mark" on their tombstone.
You and I just don't see eye to eye on that shit. And I don't believe "God" sees things that way either..................Swamp, I never said your parents did not make it to Heaven... I am not God... Why is it your Dad did not have a cross on his headstone? And Swamp... which is it.... one day you say you don't believe in God and the next you start putting words in Gods mouth... are you God? I said it before and I will say it again... You can find Jesus Christ in the Catholic Church... He is buried under tradition... but none the less they preach Christ... Many are led astray inside Catholicism to the place of believing that they can save themselves thru the keeping the Law..."Live a good life and you are in etc." I can nor will I speak for your parents. The lack of the mark on his stone may be a clue though... Swamp doesn't have one... Like I said, the woman laying on the grave will walk assured... Swamp walks in doubt... If indeed your Dad was a Christian Swamp... then each time you slam me for preaching Christ, you spit also on your Dads grave...

If this doesn't break your heart, nothing will.




http://www.sepaalf.org/images/girl.jpgThe grave is a portal... to eternity... Indeed we fight a war. The effects of this war are eternal. We battle for the souls of men. Namely our own... If you look closely at this picture, the greater tragedy is the head stone next to her loved one... It does not bear the mark of one who died in Christ. This young woman while sad that her loved one is gone, walks in the comfort of his where abouts. Yet for a time she will suffer... as will all men, because...

..........Yes... suffering is the product of Sin... Sin is where we go when we turn away from God. East of Eden... We as a country have turned away from God... We as a country have turned towards Sin... To Repent is to turn away from Sin\suffering... To turn away from suffering is to turn to God.... As long as we remain this side of the grave... We will not be free from the effect of Sin... But if Christ lives in us we at least will not be slaves to it... Ladies and Gentlemen... I am here to tell you... This War that I speak of, does have an end... The question for each of you... is "Will you be on the side of the Victor?"

[CenterPointEX]

Swamp... Jesus was crucified simply for declaring the Truth... preacing the gospel... proclaiming that there is only One Way to get to Heaven... Folks did not like that message then... they don't like it now.

That's exactly what I've been trying to get across to you! ...See, "if" there's a "heaven", and I'm a good person in my life, and try my best to keep the 10 commandments, I've got just as much chance as you of makin it.:cool: ... like I been tellin ya all along..... Here in lies the problem Swamp,... Are you a good person?... and have or will you be able to keep the 10 Commandments? You know the answer to both those questions better than I Swamp... For me myself and I... by the standard set forth in the Law/The Ten Commandments... The answer is no... and no... So Swamp... You and I are in the same boat Swamp...if we have not, neither will we keep the 10... making us not good people... Then how pray tell will we ever get to go to Heaven? The answer is, NoT of our own volition... we won't. But God is bigger than us... so if you want to go... all you have to do is put your trust in Him to justify you... thru the finished work of Jesus Christ who took the punisment you and I deserved. Making us free and clear of guillt... Penalty paid!

[dirtdobber]

C.P. why in GODS name to you keep beating people up with your religion and your beliefs. we all have our own ways at looking at religion and making our own decisions on how to get to eternal life.this is what makes us who we are what a boring place this would be if we all felt and thought the same.this would be as sad world dont you think no one for you to preach to damn imagine that.I believe in what I believe as well as swamp believes in what he believes this is what makes life worth living in your own way. whats around the next bend in the road. brother C.P.

[CenterPointEX]

C.P. why in GODS name to you keep beating people up with your religion and your beliefs...I believe in what I believe... swamp believes in what he believes ... this is what makes life worth living... whats around the next bend in the road brother C.P. Thats just it DD... What is in the road ahead of us?... Swamp believes it smooth sailing for him on the other side of the grave...

...... When I was a kid, one hot summer, there was a main road in our neighborhood on which the concrete got so hot that it expanded and one section popped out of its place creating a ramp about two feet high... Cars would go over it without a clue... They believed the road ahead would be just like the last section they traversed... As I sat there watching with the other kids in the neighborhood I began to feel that something was wrong with us just sitting there and watching... After about fifteen minutes one of the neighborhood adults came out and started waving down motorists and warning them about what was ahead... No matter how much those motorists believed the road ahead of them was like that behind them... It did not change the reality of that which was ahead... I can just hear Swamp cursing me...

Dirt Dobber... if I do nothing but watch as folks unknowingly traverse a ramp into Hell... I stand guilty of aiding and abiding their journey into the abyss... Same as that day I sat there and watched folks trash their cars... The looks on the face of the folks in the Public Transportation Bus that went over particularly amused the kids... The looks on the faces of the folks who sit in judgment on the last day will not hold a candle to the most horrific experience this world has to offer... I can not bear to imagine it.... I can just hear Swamp cursing me... "Damn you CPX... why did not not try a little harder to warn me?"... The Warning sign has been posted... Its called Gods Word... AKA the Bible... You want to ignore it?... Do so at your own risk... and if you got a family in the car with you... God Help Ya...

Dirt Dob, from our past conversations I gleen that you profess to be a Christian... That you believe the Bible... If indeed that is the case.... how do you feel about watching quietly?

[duckhunter]

Why is it so many don't want to be pushed into heaven, but they'll let anyone drag them into hell?

[dirtdobber]

to answer your question I would not set by and watch quietly I listen between the lines of what I am being told whom ever it may be telling me of there convictions. but I will not push hard to convince any one that MY beliefs are the only way to HEAVEN unlike what it seems you try to do.no disrespect to you. but one gets awfully tired of reading that your way is the only way.when there are two sides to every coin I worship how I worship you worship the way you worship.? for you if in the end we all believein the same lord what diffrence dos it truly make??:)

[CenterPointEX]

"If in the end we all believing in the same Lord" then truly it makes no difference. But DD, if we are not worshiping the same Lord then it makes all the difference in the World. When one joins the Masonic Lodge, they make exactly this CenterPoint... When you sign on here, you will worship the supreme Architect of the Universe, some call him Allah, Some call him Buddha, Some call him Jesus... from now on you will call him the Great Architect of the Universe. When ya get down to the end game of the Masons Dirtdobber, the Masons worship Satan. Satan is not the same Lord as Jesus. I know you understand this Dirtdobber.
..........How do we know the Truth DirtDobber? Can we know the truth? If we have no authority to lead us DD, the we can not know the Truth. But you my friend know the Truth... You know the Bible is Truth... Now you may not know the Bible well, but you confess it is Truth... So, should you chose to read it for all it's worth,then you too will understand that Truly there is only One Way. That is Jesus Christ... Not Allah, Not Buddha, Not Joseph Smith or the Watch Tower Society etc.

[dirtdobber]

I agree with what you have said.but to get you to understand my point I guess I should re word my thoughts on this matter to you.once more if we all believe in JESUS CHRIST THE LORD wether you are catholic prodastent or PRIMITIVE BAPTIST lutheran etc. what dos it matter if we get to HEAVEN. you are correct we will not and or should not believe in false gods this in my oppinion is a paved path to hell. you believe in your SCRIPTURE and I will believe in my SCRIPTURE.:eek:

[CenterPointEX]

...if we all believe in JESUS CHRIST THE LORD, whether you are catholic, protestant, PRIMITIVE BAPTIST or Lutheran etc., what dos it matter if we get to HEAVEN. you are correct we will not and or should not believe in false gods. Believing in false gods... in my opinion is a paved path to hell.
You believe in your SCRIPTURE and I will believe in my SCRIPTURE.:eek:... First off... .............Primitive Baptists and Lutherans are both Protestants.

They diverge from Catholics on if or not they believe in Scripture.
..........A Protestant is a Christian who follows the movement of Luther. The reason they call them protestants, is that they protested the movement of the Catholic Church away from Scripture. Some will argue that the Catholic church did not move away from Scripture. In order to support this assertion, they make the Clintonian argument... "That depends on what the meaning of "Is" is! Now the Catholic Church subscribes to a thing called "Tradition". Tradition is passed down by teachings from "infallible on the subject of scripture" Popes." They make the argument that where Scripture and the Popes diverge... The Popes trump Scripture.
..........Now if the Pope proclaims, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and probe an alter boy one Sunday a month then you will assured a place in Heaven... " Then the Pope has effectively abolished the offense of the Cross. The Pope at this juncture would be leading anyone who followed his teaching straight to Hell...
........Now would it be possible for someone in this Popes church to follow the first part," believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" but understand the errancy of the second part, "Probe an Alter Boy once a month." and thus be saved? Yes, most certainly it would be possible... But would it be desirable for man to take his family to this church and hope for the best? It is my opinion that the answer is no. Maybe you got a different opinion DirtDobber.
.......The Catholic Church teaches just such a mixed message. They teach the first part, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved"... and then they teach a second part, ..."If you also do XYZ"" Over the years the XYZ has changed with every new Pope that has entered the Vatican. So, for anyone following the Pope... Heaven is a moving target. That it is a moving target, does not preclude them from hitting it... It just makes it a arduous process of which some folks tire and give up on. Thus the wholesale production of Madonnas (the singer).

By the way, Dirtdobber, you said," I will believe in my SCRIPTURE."... What Scripture is it you believe... If it is the Bible, then we can reason together in the Scripture. Just as Christ, the Apostles and the Bariens did. If however DirtDobber, you proclaim that we cannot trust the Bible; like so many denominations have done, then at that Point, all truths become equally true and equally false. Relative Truth if you will... You believe in your truth, and I will do an altar boy once a month and well will all live happily ever after...

In my humble opinion that is a dangerous judgment... but,

[dirtdobber]

so tell me what religion it is that you follow? and by the way I do not go to church you all say its the house of the LORD well he did preach sermons from a what? why is it that the catholic church is paying 600+ mill to alter boys there is something wrong here no. bible thumping will not win people over to your side or mine we are who we are because GOD made us that way.once more if we all believed the same way and thought the same way what a boring world it would be. the tower of bable (give that more thought than just the words in the book):)

[CenterPointEX]

DirtDobber... You been reading my stuff for a long time now so the question must be rhetorical. I can see Swamp Smile when you ask it... or yawn one. You are right DD words in a book won't win over anybody. Just like speed limit signs in themself won't stop anyone from speeding. Enforcement... thats the ticket. Enforcement will stop folks from speeding. Not!... It may slow them down but it won't stop them... rhetorically speaking... are you up to speed yet Swamp... cause I know you are a little slow... But I digress?

How do you win folks over?... Love them. Earn the privilege of touching their hearts. When you do, speak to that heart... tell them how God has worked in your life and how you have seen Him work in the hearts of others. I DD, am a commando heart toucher. I slip in under cover... and just when they don't expect it... I touch their heart... Random Act of Kindness... Right where they don't expect it... I infiltrate then wham... I act... sometimes with a soothing, sympathetic, peace making or encouraging word... sometimes with a helping hand... sometimes with a listening unjudgmental ear, sometimes with an unmaliced hug, always with a CenterPoint... The CenterPoint of my Life... My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ thru whom and without which no man truly has life.

Does that make me better than you Dirt Dobber? No it does not... It just makes me forgiven. Ya see, GUILT... the bane of every man crouches at every corner... we can never be out of the presence of the accuser in this venue.. this side of Heaven...

....He is always there the Prince of this world... Pointing the finger at us saying..."See... See what miserable failures they are at keeping you commandments God... Give them to me... they are mine!" And if we listen to him... we carry an oppressive load.

..........But there is freedom from this GUILT DirtDobber... I know! and if you talk to any follower of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ... they will tell you the same thing. Forgiveness feels good. We are forgiven Dirtdobber not for any work we have done... but we are forgiven by what has been done for us... A sacrificial act of kindness. Same reason this country is what it is DD... Sacrificial acts of kindness... A man has no greater love than he lay down his life for another. We have citizenship in this great country because of those honorable men who have done just such a thing. Is Dirtdobber worthy of their sacrifice? Maybe... Maybe not... but none the less the sacrifice was for you and yours... Should you chose to DD... you could reject this freedom give to you... You could pack up and join the dissenters. In the same way DD, a man can reject the sacrifice made for him on the cross... Citizenship in Heaven... the forgiveness held out to you.

Dirtdobber Christians ain't no better than non Christians... cause at the end of the day... we have all not kept Gods commandments and deserve the penalty. But DD, should a man chose to accept it.. the pardon is his. We ain't better... just forgiven.

[Orgnizdlbr]

How do you win folks over?... Love them. Earn the privilege of touching their hearts. When you do, speak to that heart... tell them how God has worked in your life and how you have seen Him work in the hearts of others. I DD, am a commando heart toucher. I slip in under cover... and just when they don't expect it... I touch their heart... Random Act of Kindness... Right where they don't expect it... I infiltrate then wham... I act... sometimes with a soothing, sympathetic, peace making or encouraging word... sometimes with a helping hand... sometimes with a listening unjudgmental ear, sometimes with an unmaliced hug, always with a CenterPoint...

Um, so thats what you call it......http://www.avowners.com/forum/smileys/topic003.gif

[LostArt]

I think we are to plant the seed. That seed is never going to grow if we keep digging it up and seeing if it is. Plant it, water it, maybe fertilize it but, at that POINT, it's up to the Lord to see if it grows.

We are off topic, but I believe that Catholics are Christians. I've been in this situation before with Mary, but the Catholic gentleman that I have discussed it with, decided that we both should back off. He had his belief/tradition and I had mine and we both left it up to the Lord to decide in the end. Because in the end, it will be His decision. He is still my friend and he does good things in Christ. No, good deeds don't save a person, but the love that shines through, seems to come from his heart. I really find it hard to believe that the Lord wouldn't let this man in the pearly gates.

I have read the Bible, I've studied it, I've even taught Sunday School and I have seen what God can do in many people's lives. I think there comes a time when we have to move on to others to send His Word. After all, we as Christians, were told to spread the Word. Let's move to the next field to plant some seed.

I've found that most of us, even the most dedicated Christian, can be unbending in the way we speak our opinions to those about our belief. Although we speak God's Word, we still tend to come across as all knowing at times and sometimes this can send up barricades/blockades/shields against those we are trying to reach.

I do not pretend or to even know all there is to know. I'm still learning. I think we all could use more learning. After all, life is a learning experience.

[CenterPointEX]

No, good deeds don't save a person, but...I really find it hard to believe that the Lord wouldn't let this man in the pearly gates...I have read the Bible, I've studied it,...I have seen what God can do in many people's lives. . . You are right in your judgement that good works won't save us. Truth is they won't even contribute to our salvation. No matter how good we are, we can't; because we are sinners, do anything to earn salvatoin. So no matter how good you percieve someone to be... If they don't hold that the only way to Heaven is thru faith alone in Jesus Christ... then they spend eternity in Hell. Your comment seems to suggest that folks who are good enough should be let in by God. In that vein... define good.

In your opinion Gracie...can a man deny God and still be good? Will God let a man in who thinks he deserves to be let in?... Is there anybody out there in this forum who believes God should let them in because of the amount of good works you have done?

[dirtdobber]

L.A. is saying a tremendos amount without goung overboard I sure wish I could have said it better!! by the way you skirt the ?s asked of you.being saved is not of our works but of the works of our savior jesus chrst who gave up his life to save us of our sins.so my point to you is that stop thumpin your bible on this forum on people such as SWAMP myself or a few others where its doing you no good!!!! you remind me of a man I knew some years ago who proclaimed he found the LORD hell I did not know he was M.I.A. so this leeds me to when did you except the lord into your life I can just imagine how many skeletons you have in your closent brother but for me I live a very clean and healthy life with no skeletons that I have not dealt with.:eek:

[LostArt]

Your comment seems to suggest that folks who are good enough should be let in by God. In that vein... define good.


Define good? In the bibical sense? The heart. Only God knows ones heart.


In your opinion Gracie...can a man deny God and still be good?

My opinion does not go into His equation.




Will God let a man in who thinks he deserves to be let in?...



Any man/woman of God should not believe he/she deserves to be let in.




Is there anybody out there in this forum who believes God should let them in because of the amount of good works you have done?

I think I answered this in the last question CP. Good works will not get you into the pearly gates alone. I think the word "Christian" should be the divine answer. Meaning those that are Christ like.

I have a question CP, what is "Christ like" in YOUR opinion?


L.A. is saying a tremendos amount without going overboard I sure wish I could have said it better!!

I felt lead to post something Dobber. Normally I do not............I repeat, do NOT get into confrontations with CP! :D

I will say this about CP, he is consistant. And I truly believe (with all my heart) he wants us ALL (no matter what religion) to have what he has. A close connection to our Lord.

[dirtdobber]

looks like there need be no more said!!!!!!!!!!!:p

[CenterPointEX]

My opinion does not go into His equation... Good works alone will not get you into the pearly gates ... I have a question CP, what is "Christ like" in YOUR opinion?..
Oh Contrar good lady... opinions are what drive this forum... yours not withstanding. We all have an opinion and are here precisely for that reason. Here we reason togather... we exchange ideas... we learn from each other... and you know better than any of us Gracie that those who participate in these discussions are but a fraction of those who tune in. Dirtdobber, my disertation is not for Swamp alone but for all those who by Divne appointment grace us with thier anonamous presence.

Gracie you make the statement that, " Good Works Alone will not get you into heaven..." this statement implies that "good works" plus something else will get you into Heaven. That tells us that good works are meritorious towards salvation which implies that Christs sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient to atone for our sins in that we must add something to the finished work of the Cross. This is the Point of demarkation for all errant religious systems.. This same false gospel is the teaching of the Catholic Church... The Mormons... The Jehovahs Wittnesses... The Buddists... The Muslims... each of these systems of salvation proclaim that man must contribute to the earning of his salvation.by doing good works. That my dear Lady is what drives them to sever angst and frustration... Because if a man must contribute to the earning of his salvation... How can a man ever know if he has done enough? The answer is he can not. In fact... we inherantly know that try as we might... we continue; myself included, to not be Christ like... What is being Christ like? Selflessly serving your neighbor... Loving those with whom you disagree... Loving your enemies... "Your attitude should be like that of Christ, who though he was God, did not cling to his rights as God but laid aside his mighty power and glory and took the disguise of a slave to serve man... going so far as to die a criminals death on the cross..." Phillipians 2: ...He took our place... he took our punishment. That we might be free from the penalty of breaking the Law/Ten Commandments.

Jesus Christ crime was Bible Thumping... Preaching that there was only One Way. The folks did not want to hear that... They could not tolerate someone who would not tolerate the notion that a man could by his good works contribute to his salvation... This message offended them... made them real angry... They crucified him to shut him up... Didn't work did it DirtDobber? Should I be villified... and I have... for preaching the Good News/Gospel... I count it as a blessing.. So Meat, DirtDobber Koga... and all the rest of you Bible Thumper Thumpers out there... Thump On! Bless me Dudes... Judge me!

[dirtdobber]

I believe that your preachin is doing your sole good but as for me I dont need to hear that your religion is the only way to HEAVEN.so no comment in regards to you finding the LORD late in life then wanting to spread the word to try in help some lost sole. you need to be on the streets preachin instead of in here!!!!!!! you might find a few that will follow you.:p

[Koga]

think its helping his sole either. Nor his soul.
Brother Jimmy used to wear his soles out runnin up and down the podium when he preached and out of motel rooms in new Orleans but thats another story altogether.:D

Koga

[CenterPointEX]

Pun intended Koga?

Ya... those invitations bother me a little also... There is nothing Biblically wrong with that ritual... The Baptists wern't the first do do it... The apostles did it... Jesus did it... Zacheous comes to mind... Usually after long winded sermons people picked up rocks to stone the apostles and the prophets... Stephen was stoned after just such a sermon. By a bunch of self righteous folks who thought they did enough good works and they didn't need no Jesus to save them... They had in their minds to make their own way to Heaven... They were indignant that anyone would tell em it wern't so...
I ansered one of them invitations when I was 12... went up there and answered the questions right, prayed with them etc... But I just did it cause I felt they wanted me to... Other than get me in their good graces it didn't do much for me... I was later on to make that commitment on my own thru the grace of God... But I really don't see no harm in the ritual... I reckon folks holding on to their guilt would start to feel real uncomfortable upon hearing ten or fifteen minutes of someone preaching how messed up it is to do so... Jesus preached a whole lot about Hell and about money... that made folks angry... cause the harbored their guilt along with their money...
__________________

[Koga]

The last time I set foot in a Baptist church my oldest daughter was about 5 or six. It was an easter Sunday and we wre visiting my parents. A medium size church, nice folks for the most part. But during the invitation at the end after a good 15 min. of on and on and on.... I had enough. I took my family and quietly excused myself and waited for my folks outside. After words My father and I discussed why. Now I guess this is where a little background might be helpful. I was raised Baptist by a wonderful Christian father and mother. My father is an ordained deacon and has served the church in that capacity since the mid 60s. I will be forever greatfull for his example he set for my brother and myself. But I will not stand and listen to a looonnnnng winded preacher telling folks there going to hell if they dont do it now, right now while we all wait, cause the lord is speaking to him and tellin him to. If that what gets him through the night , then knock hisself out . My God, and yes he his real and personal to me, and my Jesus, aint like his. Ive never once read or heard of Jesus badgering the wet out of someone. Like some of the preachers I see do. Even Paul in one of his letters says something about don't waste your time with the ones that dont want to hear. Yes my PERSONAL relationship with God and my faith in his mercy and grace are doin wonderfully well. Fact I talked with him a coulple of times today, and will do again before I get in bed tonight. But it sure wasn't because of someone badgering the hell out of me. Nuff said and I'll get off my soapbox now!:)

Koga

[CenterPointEX]

There ya go!!:D I swear...."Religion", just really...Seperates People.
Even "In the Faith". I've seen Baptists, turn on Catholics, in my own neighborhood. Their kids in school,...makin "comments" to each other. "Catholics aren't TRUE Christians".Religion is a VERY Laughable subject.:confused: Swamp... yes the gospel seperates... it is a double edged sword... Jesus was handed over to be murdered by a man whom the world recognized as an Apostle... a follower of Jesus Christ... a Christian... This mans name was Judas... Even among the Apostles Swamp was an imposter... a man using Religion to gain earthly rewards... Just because one of the Apostles was actually working for Satan does not mean they all were Swamp... You can not Call Christianity a farce based on the actions of one so Called Christian named Judas...

A Babtist, Lutheran, Methodist etc. kid would proudly proclaim... "Hell Yes I'm a Christian!"... No Pun Intended...

The following Point ;while not true of all Catholics..., is the teaching of the Catholic Church

The water is a little muddled on the "Is a Catholic a Christian" by the Catholics themselves... If you walk up to the average Catholic kid on the street and ask him "Are you Christian?" he will answer...." No, I'm Catholic!" ... Why would he answer in such a manor? His upbringing of course... Catholics have two authorities... Tradition and The Bible... Where the Bible and Tradition disagree... Tradition Trumps... Tradition is man made... Thus the confusion of the Catholic Kid and the world looking in... Christians have only one authority... The Bible... The Word... "In the beginning was the Word... the Word was with God and the Word was God and Jesus is the Word made flesh."

I believe all Christian churches follow the creed that the Roman Catholic Church recites and believes. Which starts: "I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth and in Jesus Christ, our Lord, who was concieved by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary.............." Are their Christian churches that believe something else? Your refer to the Apostles Creed... If they are Christian... they adhere to this creed... Mormons do not adhere to the Apostles Creed.

[duckhunter]

I believe all Christian churches follow the creed that the Roman Catholic Church recites and believes. Which starts: "I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth and in Jesus Christ, our Lord, who was concieved by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary.............."

Are their Christian churches that believe something else?

[duckhunter]

Christ established the first church upon Peter. Peter is promised both the keys to heaven's Kingdom and the power to bind and loose.
St. Ignatious called the church Catholic in 107A.D.
Catholic Universal
Peter went to Rome = Roman Catholic
Christ said the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matt 16:18
Even after Luther broke away the overwhelming majority of Christians were Roman Catholic.

I wonder how many Protestant Christians even know what Luther rebelled against?

[Meat]

[ So Meat, DirtDobber Koga... and all the rest of you Bible Thumper Thumpers out there... Thump On! Bless me Dudes... Judge me![/B][/QUOTE]I'm shocked you still remember me!I must have made an impression. :)You like to bible thump so thump on these absurd tales.Adam & Eve,b.s. Noah's story complete b.s. So stupid not even worth talking about.Jonah in a whale,b.s.I could go on and on......My 5 year old would'nt buy any of these tales but christians do.Sad,sad,sad.

[PA BEN]

[ So Meat, DirtDobber Koga... and all the rest of you Bible Thumper Thumpers out there... Thump On! Bless me Dudes... Judge me![/B]I'm shocked you still remember me!I must have made an impression. :)You like to bible thump so thump on these absurd tales.Adam & Eve,b.s. Noah's story complete b.s. So stupid not even worth talking about.Jonah in a whale,b.s.I could go on and on......My 5 year old would'nt buy any of these tales but christians do.Sad,sad,sad.[/QUOTE]

Proverbs 19:3
The foolishness of man ruins his way, And his heart rages against the LORD.

1 Corinthians 2

10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.

11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

13which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

[duckhunter]

I love to debate with anyone, but I find it interesting that non-believers take part in this thread. For you who do not believe I ask you who was the one we believers refer to as Jesus Christ? Ancient writings, even of the non-Christian faith acknowledge he existed as we proclaim. Surely you don't argue he was just a good man, a preacher. Why would a good man lead so many to their deaths? If he were not who he said he was, wouldn't that make him a liar? How can a liar be a good man?

I went back on the thread today to look at how this thread has changed from it's original question. Gee, it has gone all over like every other thread on theis forum.

But that answer is that the Catholic Church is the original Christian church and is still the Church Christ started when he established it with Peter.

The first Christians were not "Bible" Christians. The various parts which now make up the New Testament were carefully treasured and read in local churches where they had been recieved, but it was only by degrees that copies were spread to other places and the whole came to be circulated throughout the church. It was late in the fourth century before New Testament writings were gathered into one book. It was late in the Christian era before the Catholic Church declared which of the many doubtful inspired writings scattered throughout the world were really inspired.

[Koga]

Me ? A Bible thumper ??? I think you need to go back and read my comment again.

Koga

[CenterPointEX]

Jesus did not say he was gonna build the church on Peter... He said he was gonna build it on Peters Confession about who Jesus was and is. Jeus replied... You are Rock and upon this rock I will build my church. The Rock was the confession that Jesus is the Christ... The Son of the LIving God and the words of eternal life.

[duckhunter]

Put it however you want. Peter was the first leader of the Church Christ established. Jesus gave him the power to bind and to loose. Those things he bound on earth would be bound in heaven, those things he loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven. Peter spoke with authority for all the other leaders of the church. Peter was the first Pope.
The Pope (from Latin: papa, tutor;[1] from Greek πάπας (pápas); father - originally written πάππας (páppas), as in Odyssey VI.57)[2] is the Bishop of Rome, the spiritual leader of the Roman Catholic Church[3] and head of state of Vatican City. Faith communities which recognize a specific concept of Apostolic Succession acknowledge the Bishop of Rome as successor of St Peter.

[dirtdobber]

Meat what the hell is that about me a bible thumper NO not I. you say your 5 year old would not buy into these storys well children only believe what there taught if you believe so will your children because you will teach them that this is the way. and this is for you DH, you can try to argue with CP all you want but he will start asking ?s that will be underhanded.

[duckhunter]

I hope so dirt, I'd hate to confuse him with facts ;-)

[CenterPointEX]

Swamp... there are plenty of Christians in the Catholic Church... but not every man in the Twelve was a Christian... One had all the appearances... but his heart was not there... Same with every Company... Every Sect... Every Church... Every Religion... Those that teach the unadulterated Gospel are Christians... We in every version of the Bible in Print can find the same Gospel... We are sinners in need of Salvation... That Salvation is availible in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross... It is available to all who will put their trust in him...

[duckhunter]

Go ahead all Protestants, pick and choose the Bible you choose to read. Remove the books that don't suit you. Nothing wrong with a little Christian "Lite" right?

The Catholic Church was established by CHRIST. "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (Matt. 16:18). "And I will give to theee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall also be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven" (Matt. 16:19)

All other churces have been established by men, not Christ:

The Lutheran church was founded in 1517 by Martin Luther.

The Church of England (Anglicanism) was founded in 1534 by King Henry VIII. He wanted the Church to declare his marriage to Queen Cathrine invalid.

The Presbyterian denomination was established in 1560 bt John Knox, dissatisfied with Anglicansim.

The Episcopalian denomination was begun in 1784 by Samuel Seabury who was dissatisfied with Presbyterianism.

The Baptist church was started in 1606 byJohn Smith in Holland.

John and Charles Wesley launched the Methodist church in 1744 in England.

The Unitarians were founded by Theoohilus Lindley ib 1744 also.

Charles Russell developed the Jehovah's Witness church in 1872.

The founder of the Salvation Army is William Booth, who quit the Anglicans, then the Methodists and then set up his own version in 1787. His own son left the Salvation Army and started his own church in 1896.

Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy started the Christian Science religion in 1879.

The Mormons, Seventh-Day Adventist, Church of Christ, Church of the Nazarene and all other Pentecostal churches were founded by men in the past few generations.

The Roman Catholic Church was founded by God-made-man, Jesus Christ, in the year 33 AD. He said: "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.... Feed my lambs; feed My sheep" (Matt. 16:18, 19; John 21:15,17). He also said: "He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who gathers not with me scatters" (Matt. 12:30)



Kind of a long post for me. I guess the 2 weeks in the seminary in 9th grade took hold today.

[PA BEN]

Matthew 23:5-12
5"But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.

6"They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues,

7and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men.

8"But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.

9"Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

10"Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

11"But the greatest among you shall be your servant.

12"Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

[BigClive]

Matthew 23:5-12
5"But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.

So how do you go about broadening your phylacteries? Does it involve sitting on a cornbrator?

Sorry. Just routinely lowering the tone of CP's religious threads. :p

[duckhunter]

PA Ben,
What do these chapters of Matthew have to do with my statement about the Roman Catholic Church being established by Christ, and all others established by men? Matthew refers to what Christ said about the Pharisees. Surely you do not believe that Peter and the other disciples would right away establish practices that were contrary to what Christ had taught them. By the way, what do you call the man who made your mother pregnant?

The passages you raise were never concerns of Luther, is that the best you have?

[PA BEN]

PA Ben,
What do these chapters of Matthew have to do with my statement about the Roman Catholic Church being established by Christ, and all others established by men? Matthew refers to what Christ said about the Pharisees. Surely you do not believe that Peter and the other disciples would right away establish practices that were contrary to what Christ had taught them. By the way, what do you call the man who made your mother pregnant?

The passages you raise were never concerns of Luther, is that the best you have?
Your statement of the Catholic church is the true church. But you guys call the guy up front father. Or the holy father. When someone tells me they have the corner on the market I question it. This is all it takes; John 3:16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

[duckhunter]

So if you take the King James English version of this Gospel of Matthew, it says call no one on earth your father except the Father. Now that means you paternal dad, your wifes dad, etc. Or you could know that calling no one father except the father means don't refer to someone as God the Father except for God the Father.

As for believeing that John 3:16 Beleiving saves you, Satan believes. I don't put him in the saved line.

As far as Holy Father, we are all called to be holy. Being Holy simply means being seperated from the world for God's use. Certainly all Christian leaders attempt to do this. When Moses was told to remove his sandals because he was standing on holy ground. The ground was no different than 10 feet away, except that the ground he was standing on was being used for God's purpose. Therefore holy.

[PA BEN]

8But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

11For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

13for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

[duckhunter]

"What will it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but does not have works?" "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:14, 26).

[PA BEN]

Faith and Works
14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,

16and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

19You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

It's not just the works of the Catholic church.

[duckhunter]

I agree totally, it is not just faith for anyone else.

[PA BEN]

So when you say the Catholic church is the true church, no one else can be saved out side of the Catholic church?

[duckhunter]

I'm saying that Christ established the Catholic Church. All creatures are obliged to become members of Christ's Church for "He that believeth not shall be condemned" (Mark 16:16) He did not establish other churches, they were established by man. "If he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican" (Matt. 18:17). That is, he is not to be considered a Christian at all, and according to Christ's own judgement, outside the pale of salvation. The Church Christ formed is of apostolic origin; and He said; "He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me" (Luke 10:16)

Believers believe that God knows what will and has happened with man. "Other sheep I have who are not of this fold, them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd" (John 10:16)

[Meat]

I'm saying that Christ established the Catholic Church. All creatures are obliged to become members of Christ's Church for "He that believeth not shall be condemned" (Mark 16:16) He did not establish other churches, they were established by man. "If he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican" (Matt. 18:17). That is, he is not to be considered a Christian at all, and according to Christ's own judgement, outside the pale of salvation. The Church Christ formed is of apostolic origin; and He said; "He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me" (Luke 10:16)

Believers believe that God knows what will and has happened with man. "Other sheep I have who are not of this fold, them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd" (John 10:16)I'm not sure this is "POLITICS" but it certainly is "BS".Meat:D

[PA BEN]

3Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

4Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"

5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

8"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

9Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?"

10Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?

11"Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.

12"If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

13"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

14"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;

15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

18"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

20"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

21"But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

[PA BEN]

You asked and I posted the scripture that explains it.

[CenterPointEX]

The Catholic Church was established by CHRIST. "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (Matt. 16:18).

All other churces have been established by men, not Christ:

The Lutheran church was founded in 1517 by Martin Luther.

The Church of England (Anglicanism) was founded in 1534 by King Henry VIII. He wanted the Church to declare his marriage to Queen Cathrine invalid.

The Presbyterian denomination was established in 1560 bt John Knox, dissatisfied with Anglicansim.

The Episcopalian denomination was begun in 1784 by Samuel Seabury who was dissatisfied with Presbyterianism.

The Baptist church was started in 1606 byJohn Smith in Holland.

John and Charles Wesley launched the Methodist church in 1744 in England.


Kind of a long post for me. I guess the 2 weeks in the seminary in 9th grade took hold today.

Duck... The Word Catholic means Universal or One...

Duck... The Line of demarcation for all cults is the answer to the question Jesus asked Peter right before Peter made his confession...

All the non-Christians give an incorrect answer to it Duck...

Jesus said,
"Some say I am a great teacher, some say I'm a great prophet, some say I am just a man... Who do you say I AM Peter?"

At that Point Peter made a confession about who Jesus is...

Jesus replied, "No man has reavealed this to you... your Father in Heaven has..." and then Jesus said to Peter... "You are a rock... and on this rock I will build my church!" Jesus was responding to the nature of Peters confession... not to the nature of Peter... The rock Jesus was speaking of was Peters confession of who and what Jesus was and is...

Jesus was making the statement that upon that confession would his church be built...

and to this day... Every body of believers who gathers togather to worship God... making the same confession that Peter did... is a member church of that one "Universal" or "Catholic" church...

As I stated before... Duck... The Catholic Church has put "Tradition" on the same level as Scripture... Gods Word is and has always been Unchanging Duck, but "Catholic Tradition" on the other hand is and has always been in flux... the nature of it changes from Pope to Pope... The supposedly inerrant edicts that have come from alternate Popes have been conflicting and will remain so...

Luther was the first to try and bring the Catholic Church back to the Truths of the Bible... God's Word... Luther did not mean to start a new church... He just read the Bible and discovered that Salvation is Free to all who will put their trust in Christ. That was contrary to the Faith plus Works method of attaining Salvation that the Catholic Church was and still to this day is teaching...

[johnbellamy]

I don't do "scripture" Ben. There's all sorts of "Good words" out there in this world. I listen to the man speakin em. Not the man reciting passages from the bible, or whatever "book", as the truth.

Ok here is what I say, If you don't believe in the Bible and you think it is just "words", And through the centuries it is a book of Fables that has been passed along by some sort of strange circumstances well let me ask you this.

Jesus, is any one man's name more recognized thru the history of mankind?

Is there any record in any book that says Jesus ever hurt, abused, or forced anyone to follow him?

Did Jesus ever ask for anyone to build elaberate church's or temples to honor him, or was it man's doing?

Was Jesus rich or have worldly possesions?

Was Jesus a working man, or a rich king?

Were the miracles he preformed magic tricks, and if they were did they harm people, or did they help people.

When Jesus was crucified, did he fight it, or did he bare the sins of the world for people so they could enter Heaven?

Jesus to me was a perfect example of what a human being, a hero, a mentor, a teacher, a savior should be.

No other man that walked this earth can fill his shoes.

Jesus to me is the church, not Religon, or Denominations, I can pick them apart as easy as anybody because those are man made, man motivated, man manipulated, so tear them apart cause it is easy to do.

But try to focus on Jesus, you cannot tear him apart, you got nothin on him.

If you like to read, read the Bible, not with the attitude of trying to disprove it, see what you personally get out of it, not which religon you want to follow, cause its not about religon, its about salvation, and see what Jesus asks of you, and what he has to offer you.

[CenterPointEX]

The Catholic Church was established by CHRIST. "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (Matt. 16:18).

All other churces have been established by men, not Christ:

The Lutheran church was founded in 1517 by Martin Luther.

The Church of England (Anglicanism) was founded in 1534 by King Henry VIII. He wanted the Church to declare his marriage to Queen Cathrine invalid.

The Presbyterian denomination was established in 1560 bt John Knox, dissatisfied with Anglicansim.

The Episcopalian denomination was begun in 1784 by Samuel Seabury who was dissatisfied with Presbyterianism.

The Baptist church was started in 1606 byJohn Smith in Holland.

John and Charles Wesley launched the Methodist church in 1744 in England.


Kind of a long post for me. I guess the 2 weeks in the seminary in 9th grade took hold today.

Duck... The Word Catholic means Universal or One...

Duck... The Line of demarcation for all cults is the answer to the question Jesus asked Peter right before Peter made his confession...

All the non-Christians give an incorrect answer to it Duck...

Jesus said,
"Some say I am a great teacher, some say I'm a great prophet, some say I am just a man... Who do you say I AM Peter?"

At that Point Peter made a confession about who Jesus is...

Jesus replied, "No man has reavealed this to you... your Father in Heaven has..." and then Jesus said to Peter... "You are a rock... and on this rock I will build my church!" Jesus was responding to the nature of Peters confession... not to the nature of Peter... The rock Jesus was speaking of was Peters confession of who and what Jesus was and is...

Jesus was making the statement that upon that confession would his church be built...

and to this day... Every body of believers who gathers togather to worship God... making the same confession that Peter did... is a member church of that one "Universal" or "Catholic" church...

As I stated before... Duck... The Catholic Church has put "Tradition" on the same level as Scripture... Gods Word is and has always been Unchanging Duck, but "Catholic Tradition" on the other hand is and has always been in flux... the nature of it changes from Pope to Pope... The supposedly inerrant edicts that have come from alternate Popes has been conflicting and will remain so...

Luther did not mean to start a new church... He just read the Bible and discovered that Salvation is Free to all who will put their trust in Christ. That was contrary to the Faith plus Works method of attaining Salvation that the Catholic Church was and still to this day is teaching...

If you will read the firts few verses of Romans, you will discover Duck... That "Works" is a product of "Faith"... If you have Faith... you will do works... Faith will cause Works... Faith will assure Salvation... but the converse if not true... "Works" will not cause "FAith"... Works will not get, attain, or assure Salvation... and thus the confusion of all Catholic Children... Thus the confusion of Luther... Try as he might Luther could not reconcile himself into the Kingdom of Heaven... Then he read the Bible.

Swamp... It is the Bible... The Word of God... that all of Christianity is built upon... any religion that departs from it in any fashion becomes apostate... including Lutherans, Babtists, Methodists, Mormons, and Yes.... DUCK... Catholics...

[PA BEN]

I can dig it. Explains it to you. That's a good thing man. I'm happy for ya.

Do you have any "thoughts" on religion...outside of "Scripture that "Explains it".?
Sorry Swamp, if it doesn't line up with scripture it's hog wash. Those that believe (and when I say believe, I mean that you believe Jesus is the Son of God sent to die for our sins and you receive Him in your heart as your Savior for your sins, and with your mouth you confess Jesus is Lord) are the true church and Jesus is the Head.
If the Catholic church is "the church then why the letter to the seven churches"?
Revelation 1:10-11
10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,

11saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

As for religion? I've been called religious, but I say you can be a religious smoker, a religious drinker and so on. So the word religion doesn't mean a hill of beans to me. It's a heart condition. Do you believe and receive? You must be born again. Only God can judge the heart. There's only one way "turn or burn"

[duckhunter]

I agree that the word Catholic means Universal, the Church was first referred to as Catholic in the third century. At that time there were either Jews or Christians. Luther's grandpa was not even a twinkle in his great-grandpa's eye. The Catholic Church embraced all true believers. St. Cyprian (who died in 258) said "Whoever seperates himself from the Church is separated from the promises of the Church....He is alien, he is profane, he is an enemy; he can nl longer have God for his father who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the Ark of Noah, so also may he escape who shall be outside the bounds of the Church".

So until the 16th century when Martin Luther broke away from the Catholic Church, the overwhelming majority of Christians were Roman Catholics.

The Protestant rebellion was, as it is today, a protest against Christ's divinely constituted teaching authority in the world, His Church, and the substitution of the Bible, interpreted bt each individual, in its place. That runs counter to almost unanimous conviction of all of Christianity for fifteen hundred years.

Christ meant to establish Peteras the foundation of the Church He intended to establish: Peter was the sign of stability, permanence and unity.Peter was promised the keys to the Kingdom and the power ot bind and to loose. He is the primary spokesman for the apostles. He is the principal preacher and pacesetter for apostolic endeavors.

If God had intended that man should learn his religion from the Bible, surely God would have given that book to man. He didn't do that. Christ sent His apostles throughout the earth and said: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, teaching then to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you" (Matt. 28: 19, 20). Christ did not say, sit down and write Bibles, and then let every man read and judge for himself.

The Apostles never circulated a single volume of scripture. When Christ said "Search the Scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and the same are they that give testimony to me" (John5:39) He was referring to the Old Testament. Remeber, the New testament wasn't written. Christ established the Church 65 years before St. John wrote the last book of the New testament. The Apsotles were teaching from tradition.

As far as Luther, you all ought to be real proud:
Luther said " Sin boldly but believe more bodly. Let your faith be greater than your sin.....Sin will not destroy us in the reign of the Lamb, although we were to commit fornication a thousand times in one day".

Christ said "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication...murder....and suchlike. And concerning these i warn you, they who do such things will not attain the Kingdom of God" (Galatians 5 19-21).

Luther: "As to divorece, it is a moot question whether it is allowable. For my part, I prefer bigamy"

Christ: "Whosoever shall put away his wife and marry another, committeth adultry against her. And if the wife shall put away her husband and be married to another, she committeth adultery" (Mark 10:11-12)

Luther: "He that says the Gospel requires works for salvation, I say, flat and plain, is a liar"

Christ: "What will it profit my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but does not have works?" "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:14,26).


I guess Luther thought CHrist was a liar.

[PA BEN]

If God had intended that man should learn his religion from the Bible, surely God would have given that book to man. He didn't do that. Christ sent His apostles throughout the earth and said: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, teaching then to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you" (Matt. 28: 19, 20). Christ did not say, sit down and write Bibles, and then let every man read and judge for himself.

2 Timothy 3
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

[duckhunter]

The only scriptures Timothy knew were the Old Testament.

[PA BEN]

The only scriptures Timothy knew were the Old Testament.
Do Catholics keep the old testament Law?

[duckhunter]

Well we follow the Top 10 you know, we stopped sacrificing lambs after The Lamb was slain. We still follow some of the dress codes for our priests. We did quit making our tassels as long as we once did.

How about your folks Ben, did you all remove more stuff from the Bible again?

[PA BEN]

Damn...
last I heard, the "Old" testament was sorta "Upgraded" by the "New testament.

I guess I just don't know WHO "upgraded" it...or why.

Sora like Microsoft, huh? "Fix the bugs?". BUT....Some people just KEEP usin that damn XP....and won't "upgrade to Vista". :D

The Old Testament is the Old Covenant with Gods people. A Covenant is binding until death. A Marriage covenant, "until death do we part". Duck talked about this a little. Now Jesus the Christ through death died to fulfill the Old Covenant or we would still be kill lambs for the atonement for sins. Now Jesus rose from the dead, the old is done away and all things are new. God now has a New Covenant not only to the Jew but also to the Gentile. The New Testament Church.

[duckhunter]

So Ben, we don't need to follow any of the Old Testament? The top 10 are all fullfilled now? You cetainly do not believe that all Old Testament laws were eliminated do you? If so why do you even need the Old Testament in your Bible? Just a trip down memory lane?

[PA BEN]

So God gave Moses the 10 Commandments to show man his sin. Now they are written on our hearts. Man now knows whats right and wrong. There's a lot of good wisdom to live by, but the rule's and regulations ie; "can't eat pork" are done away with.


A New Covenant
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

8For finding fault with them, He says,
"BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10"FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11"AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12"FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."

13When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

[duckhunter]

So you only keep New Testaments in your church or home. The Old Testament is just a history lesson?

10 Commandmments, are still the rules.

[PA BEN]

So you only keep New Testaments in your church or home. The Old Testament is just a history lesson?

10 Commandmments, are still the rules.

So, what you say about the new covenant?

James 2:10
10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

[neil macgregor]

how come christians are the 4th biggest tribe in the world yet ask them about it they give you some speel about how the others are wrong .
this also works for all the other tribes
how about we,re all over developed monkies floating around on a big rock in space......get over it we,re all doomed anyway:D

[LostArt]

And wouldn't it be amazing that we are all praying to the same God?

Yeah, think on that one.

[Orgnizdlbr]

:D:D

Just amazes me...
all this "christian" religious..."Disagrement".

Sorta like the Sunni's and the Shia in Islam.;)

Like I said LONG time ago....."Religion" IS the problem on our Planet Earth...
We gotta sort THIS shit out...

And guess what....THAT an't never gonna change......
Your "God", My "God", THE "God"....

The "Politics of Religion"......:confused:
Does anybody GET... How RELIGION...Seperates us ALL... so much???


Been going on forever.....we're right, they're wrong.......Protestants and Catholics in northern Ireland pray to the same God........Christians all over the world feel the compulsion to deride other Christians because of semantics....a damn shame, and they wonder why people become disillusioned with organized religion.....

[PA BEN]

how come christians are the 4th biggest tribe in the world yet ask them about it they give you some speel about how the others are wrong .
this also works for all the other tribes
how about we,re all over developed monkies floating around on a big rock in space......get over it we,re all doomed anyway:D
Unless you ask Jesus to show himself to you, you well never know. Ask and you shall receive. Whats it going to hart? Do it by yourself and ask Jesus to make Himself real to you, and see what happens.

Passage John 14:6:

6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

[IN THE SHADOWS]

In keeping with my own conviction of not debating politics or religion...this is NOT an argument for or against anyones beliefs...just something I feel like sharing. Been to church in the past...several differant denominations. Have not been back in a number of years.

Ive had three experiances in my life that have me absolutely convinced there is some form of an intangible force that can and will occaisionally influence what we do on this rock we live on.

One of the experiances was the sudden overwhelming need to go visit a good friend in the hospital. He died the next day.

Another, was a sudden urge to spend some time with my father one night instead of going out to party. Had never done that up to this one particular time. Had a great time and for the first time..we really got to know each other. He unexpectedly died the next day.

The third was driving down the hiway fatigued, I nodded off headed for a corner that would have put me into the river at 70 miles an hour had it not been for an extremely painful sting of some kind on a finger that woke me up.

Was this God or a "God" effecting these events? Dunno...maybe...Iv'e never actually seen God or a "God".

Were these coincidencesl? I doubt it.

Was it some kind of 4th deminsional supernatural force? dunno

I just know that someone or something did in fact externally affect my behavior during these three events that convinces me there is an unseen force existing that has the power to do so.

Believe what y'all want to.....go to whatever church you want to.....quote whatever scripture you feel like ( even though all of it was written by mortal men) [B] do whatever makes you feel good B] Religion? there is no right and there is no wrong as far as I'm concerned (albeit the debates on this site have been are somewhat entertaining....its just that ....entertainment.

Just live each day like its your last and you can make someone happy...maybe even yourself:)

[PA BEN]

I went through the same type of things in my life a year or two before I got saved. 1/1/1985 at 4:00 am at the age of 26. One of the last things that got my attention was My friend and I were going out to a bar to party and wow I had a Day-Jaw-View, I look back now I call it, "a knock at the door" I had such a strong feeling about it I told my buddy I wasn't going out and told him why. He said non-sense and drug me out. I had 6 beers from 7 pm to 2 am, at that time in my life I drank a lot more then that. We went to breakfast after the bar closed, my friend went home with a girl he met and I left for home at 3 am. I fell asleep crossed the cent line and hit a guard rail. Thank God there wasn't an on coming car. Just one of many knocks at the door.
Revelation 3:20-21
20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

21 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

[duckhunter]

I believe there isa new covenant with Christ's death. I believe the apostles after Christ's death taught the Scriptures they knew. And they only knew the Old Testament Scriptures. What they taught about Christ and the Scriptures did not conflict. That is what I believe.

You say we should only teach the Bible. If you are of a denomination that tells everyone that they "Need a personal relationship with God", can you tell me where that is in the Bible?

[CenterPointEX]

I agree that the word Catholic means Universal,
Luther: "He that says the Gospel requires works for salvation, I say, flat and plain, is a liar"

Christ: "What will it profit my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but does not have works?" "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:14,26).


I guess Luther thought CHrist was a liar. You I can see Duck Hunter are a man of reason... And... On some things we Agree...

Duck... I have broken bread with and traversed the bounds of Scripture with many a Catholic... practicing and non practicing... I have found a common thread amongst them...

For the most part ... they do not know thier Bible... not any version of it.

Yes, they have strong convictions...

Yes Duck... they are well versed in Catholic Apology...

Because... for the most part Duck... they don't read their Bibles very often.

Judging from your exspongigations on the Bible, I would lean towards putting you in that catigory.

You make the claim that Luther infered Christ to be a Liar...

Your evidence is faulted... Yes, Duck... Christ made the claim that Faith without works is Dead...

This is a True statement... I do not disagree with it, neither did Luther...

In my proof statement, I quoted Romans 1

"...we received Grace and Apostleship, to call people to Works\Obediance that comes from Faith."

Duck, Works Come from Faith... Faith produces Works... and not vice Versa...

Duck, I can show you this Truth in Scripture from all over the Bible... in the Old Testiment... and in the New...

Duck... show me one place in the Bible where it teaches that Works produce Faith...

Duck... the inherant flaw in the teaching that Works produce Faith is...

If Works produced Faith... then man could save himself... and the Crucifiction of Chirst was not necessary...

If the Crucifixion of Christ was not necessary... Then the FAther who let it happen is not good... If God is not good DUCK... then God is not God.

[duckhunter]

I cannot show you, nor do I claim that works alone save anyone. Perhaps you can show in this short thread where I made the claim. I said, faith without works is not getting it done. It is like the commercial on the radio right now about the people that "almost help".

I am saying about Luther that he decided that what the long existing, only existing Church of his time taught that you need both faith and works. Luther said that the Gospels do not say that and that anyone who claims othrwise is a liar. So either he claims CXhrist is a liar or it could be he is claiming that James is a liar.

[PA BEN]

I believe there isa new covenant with Christ's death. I believe the apostles after Christ's death taught the Scriptures they knew. And they only knew the Old Testament Scriptures. What they taught about Christ and the Scriptures did not conflict. That is what I believe.

You say we should only teach the Bible. If you are of a denomination that tells everyone that they "Need a personal relationship with God", can you tell me where that is in the Bible?
Matthew 11


28"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

29"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.

30"For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

[duckhunter]

Still looking for the passage.

[CenterPointEX]

I cannot show you, nor do I claim that works alone save anyone...
What I am saying about Luther is that he decided that what the only long existing, (Roman Catholic) Church of his time taught was wrong. They taught that you need both faith and works (to attain Salvation) . Luther said that the Gospels do not say that and that anyone who claims othrwise is a liar. So either he claims Christ is a liar or that James is a liar.
Like I said Duck... on some things we are lock step... I will concur that that a man who says he has Faith but does no works... really has not Faith... at this juncture... I and the Protestants diverge from Roman Catholicism teaching... because Roman Catholicism then goes beyond the bounds of Scripture by proclaiming that the works of men have Salvific Merit! While Protestants believe a man can store up treasure in Heaven thru Works... We do not believe that Works contribute one iota to our Salvation... The Bible backs us up in this... The Bible does not anywhere teach that we are saved by anthing other than Faith in Christ... Thus our Works have zero Salvific Merit.

...... In your dissertation, you qualified the word "Works"... with the word "alone"... Thus you did make the statement, " 'Works' save you... and Christ saves you...". Duck!... the Bible is unequivocally clear in proclaiming that works save no one... Paul; in Romans, labors that Point to no end... In Laboring that Point, Paul points to the Old Testiment and Father Abraham to chronicle his lesson.

This goes back Duck...to the question that Jesus asked Peter, the question that all cults and non Christians answer wrong. "Who and what is Jesus?... "

The gospel, nor did Jesus say, "You need Works and Faith to attain Salvation... "

Yes, Jesus did say, "What will it profit a man if he says he has Faith but has not Works...so Faith without works is dead also."

The Bible does say Duck, that we are saved by Faith alone, thru Grace alone, in Christ alone...

I will show it to you if you like Duck... all over the Old and New Testiment...

Yes Duck... by their fruits you will know them...

These Fruits... These Works... are a byproduct of Faith... Works will never... ever... bring about Faith... Faith will however always produce Works... Because Duck... in all who have Faith... Christ begins to work in and thru them... So, Duck; and this is where Roman Catholic teaching misses the boat, it is not then us who begin to do good works... but rather it is Christ in us... So that No MAN! can boast! So it is Christ in us who does these works... Christ who saves us... Christ who produces these Fruits... Christ who produces these works...

When Luther read the Bible and discovered this... the Roman Catholic Church tried to silence him... Because at that time, the Roman Catholic Church was selling places in Heaven... "When the coin in the coffer rings, a soul into Heaven Springs." They were teaching that if you paid enough money, Heaven was assured.

The Roman Catholic Church has since admitted that there was creedance to Luthers position and that The Catholic Church must shoulder some fault in the Schism that resulted... They tried to crucify Luther for preaching the Bible at the expense of Roman Catholic Authority... The Jews did Crucify Jesus for preaching the Gospel at the expense of Jewish Authority... The Jews justified their actions on the same grouds and authority as the Roman Catholic Authorities who went after Luther...

The Catholic Church no longer sells indulgences... nor does it any more hold fast to the theology of purgatory... These were infalible edicts of Popes past... proof text that the Popes were not, nor are they now infalible in edicts concerning the Word...

[duckhunter]

Yes CenterPointEX, we agree on faith and works.I just took less time to say it. But the Bible does not teach that the Bible is the only authority. I think you will agree there was a body of individuals that determined what writings went into the Old and New Testament. WHo was this body for over 1500 years after Christ died? It was the only established Church, the Catholic Church.

You refer to selling indulgences. Yes, it happened. That does not make the Church that Christ established invalid. There have been terrible people in church hierachy. But Christ said "the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it".

I do not, nor dos the Church claim the Pope to be infallible in all their acts. The President, no matter who they are, does not always act as the President. His views in hunting, music, sports do not have presidential authority. Privates acts of Popes and Bishops are out of the jurisdiction of the Church. Decisions about selling indulgences were not made "ex cathedra".

By the way, still looking for "personal relationship with God" in the Bible.

[CenterPointEX]

we agree on faith and works.

DUCK!... Am I hearing you say you agree with me that Works will never produce FAITH... and that it is Christ in us and therefor not us who produce these Works?

Cause Duck...if I hear you saying you agree with that, then Duck just waddled out of the bounds of Catholicism...


selling indulgences. Yes, it happened. That does not make the Church that Christ established invalid...Decisions about selling indulgences were not made "ex cathedra".

Whoa there Mr. RC apologist... you just threw out a big word that the boys and girls listening in might not know... Could you give us your laymans definition of EXCathedra?

and on that note... No!... it does not make the Roman CAtholic Church; which you claim Christ established, invalid.... But... Duck!... It does on this occasion make the Catholic Church... DEAD! WRONG!

This Sir... is the very straw that broke the Camels Back for Luther... Luther tried like all good Catholics to attain the other half of the Catholic Method of Salvation... By Doing enough good works to assure his Salvation... as he met person after person who had been assured Salvation because they paid in enough money... he began to wonder why he was trying so hard to do enough good works when all he had to do was pay enough money...

So... at that Center Point... Duck... Luther went to the only authority that had been unchanging... unlike the Catholic edicts... Luther went to the Bible and began searching for anwers to the conflicting teachings the CAtholic Church was calling gospel at that time...

And Lo and Behold... The pages of Scripture came to life before his very eyes... He beheld Romans 6:23

"The Wages of Sin is Death... But the Free Gift of God is eternal life in (or through) Christ Jesus."

Luther discovered it was a free gift... and that he did not have to do any works or pay any money to receive it... in fact he learned that there were no Works which he could do to receive it... Because all the work had been done by Jesus... all Luther had to do was accept it...

Why do people find accepting the finished Work of Christ so hard?

Why must people hold so steadfast to working out the details of their own salvation?

I know why... DUCK!... PRIDE They are too proud to conceed that they can not save themselves... And so they struggle to work out their Salvation... to bring it to completion... never ever knowing if they have done enought to make the bar... never ever knowing if they are gonna make it to Heaven or not... Wallowing in the despair of their guilt, understanding like Luther before he discovered it was free... that try as they might... they can not stop sinning... and thus will never attain their end of the bargin in order to receive Salvation...

But the good news is DUCK!... All who put their FAITH in the finished work of Christ will receive the FREE GIFT of Salvation... Eternal Life in and through Christ JESUS... The Bible does teach this from Genisis to Revelation. If you like DUCk... I can show you those passages in Genisis and Revelation...

And finally DUCK!... "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?..." 1 Corinthians 6:19

This is proof text of a personl relationship with God... How much more intimate or personal can one become than when the Holy Spirit... who is God... dwells in him?


By the way, still looking for "personal relationship with God" in the Bible. So, Duck... If you are still looking for a personal relationship with God... Get on you knees and ask... looking no further... and it will be granted unto you... It's that simple DUCK! and to make it even simpler... Jesus reduces the whole of Bible... the Whole of the Law... the Whole of the Gospel down to two laws... Love God... Love Others... Love them the way Christ showed us Duck... Give of yourself selflessly to God... and to Others... as did our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ..............

[duckhunter]

Center,
I cannot find anywhere that the Church claims that works produce faith. I'm sure there are Protestants that claim someone claimed it so in their mind it must be true. A lot of people think they know what Catholics believe. My parents believe something taught by their parents, etc., etc., that is not Church doctrine. The same holds true in other denominations.

"When the Spirit of truth is come, He will teach all truth" (John 16:13). "He will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I have said to you" (John 14:26). He will abide with you forever; and He shall be in you" (John 14:16,17). It is bt the Holy Spirit, then, that the Church is ever to posess the truth, and nothing can rob her of it. The Spirit, who was sent by the Father and the Son, will abide unceasingly with and in her.

Center, a man who does not acknowledge the Church to be infallible, should be consistent, admit that the Son of God has not been able to fullfill His promise, and that the Spirit of truth is a Spirit of error.

Center, you may think that you are denying a perogative of the Church, reality is you are refusing to believe God himself. Perhaps pride is grabbing you? It certainly was Luthers downfall.

My point about a personal relationship should be esy to grasp. You calim that only the Bible should be taught. The Boble does not claim we need a personal relationship with God. That is a tradition. A good and apprpriate one, I think. But those words were not uttered by Christ. Where are they written in red?

I believe that Christ is my Saviour. My goal is heaven. I agree with the Church, Salvation is a process. I believe today I would be go to heaven. But I am still a sinner and am capable of loosing salvation. I am also capable of regaining it if I do loose it.

We may both be suprised at judgement day. Neither of us may make it. I pray we both do, I hope Swamp is with us. I really like that guy.

[CenterPointEX]

We may both be suprised at judgement day. Neither of us may make it. I pray we both do, I hope Swamp is with us. I really like that guy. Again Duck... in some things we are lock step... I have done quite a bit of praying for Swamp also... to the same end...


I cannot find anywhere that the Church claims that works produce faith.
OK then DUCK... I then have you down as being in agreement that Works do not under any circumstances save a person. I think... Because you kinda sidestepped the Point in saying that could not find anywhere that the Roman Catholic Church claims that Works Produce Faith... Reasoning from the Scriptures is good Duck... it is Biblical even...

So, I have a question for you Duck... remember that we are reasoning from the Scriptures...

To qualify the question I refer to the first of your quotes above...

It seems to say that DUCK does not know Whether or not he will make it to Heaven...

So the question is...DUCK... according to Scripture... Can a man know if or not he is going to Heaven?

[duckhunter]

Just as faith alone without works will not save you, niether will works without faith. It's a combo.

I know the verse that you will quote that claims you can know you are saved. But remember, you are the one that claims that all the answers are in the book and only the book. We claim otherwise. And since your crowd removed many of the books of the Bible that were there for centuries, I believe it is a process. There are times in my life and yours when we have salvation. I believe we can loose it. I know that Christ died so that my sin could be forgiven. But the sin that I do not confees or try to hide is not.

Swamp, I'm glad you are taking part. The bold thing on my name is kind of like someone yelling at you. Get's a little old.

[CenterPointEX]

Is it your position Duck, that there is only one verse in the Bible that makes the claim that you can know your are saved?


Just as faith alone without works will not save you, niether will works without faith. It's a combo
You have agreed with me Duck that Works do not under any circumstances produce Faith...

Your have agreed with me that Faith does produce Works...

Thus by default, you have agreed with me that we are by Faith alone Saved... and that an outward sign of that inward faith is manifest in Works/Fruits of the Spirit... Thus, a person who says he has Faith, but has not works, must be suspected of having no faith at all. Which is exactly what the scripture you quote on this subject says, What does it profit a man if he says he has faith but has not works... Any man who does such a thing is just a bag of hot air and not a follower of Jesus Christ... AKA a Christian... it is these bags of hot air that give folks like BC, a bully pulpit from which to proclaim God Dead.

We are gettiing real close to a consensus on our positions Duck.

Just one thing bothers me about your above quote... If I read it right, it says Point Blank DUCK, "Faith alone will not save you.".. is that your position...
I Contend DUCK, that the Scripture does say that we are by Faith in Christ by Grace alone are saved. And while Works are a sign of that Faith, they do not contribute to it.

Are you in disagreement with me on this Biblical CenterPoint DUCK?

Are you telling me that the Bible does not say this?...

[duckhunter]

I dopn't believe I stated tha under NO circumstances will works produces faith, in fact, I think it helps faith grow. And I know that I have see Faith create works. With some people it may be the chicken andf egg thing. Theu were doing good works without faith. But a faith developed through their works because of others. And I do not believe that by faith alsone we are saved. Abrahm believed God would send him descendants, but he did a work to prove his faith by making the sacrifices. I know, Old Testament.

I do not know what you are asking me in the last question.

I know that I was born Catholic and practiced my faith weakly and weekly. In the 90's I attended a non-denominational, Holiness/Nazarene based church. I value my time there. It caused me to visit several denominations. And what I realized is that they all have problems. Some of them have had the same problems with their leaders that the Catholic Church has had. Some got Jimmyed. It caused the to be half-Bakered and to Swaggart a little. That was men, not the denomination that did wrong, likethe Catholic Church. I was a Promise Keeper small group leader at the non-denominational church and my Catholic Church. I decided to go back home because my Bible reading lead me home.

[CenterPointEX]

I don't believe I stated tha under NO circumstances will works produces faith, in fact, I think it helps faith grow. And I know that I have seen Faith create works... And I do not believe that by faith alone we are saved. Abrahm believed God would send him descendants, but he did a work to prove his faith by making the sacrifices. I know, Old Testament.........

Center,
I cannot find anywhere that the Church claims that works produce faith. I'm sure there are Protestants that claim someone claimed it, so in their mind it must be true... I agree with the Church, Salvation is a process...We may both be suprised at judgement day. Neither of us may make it.

Ok... I am a little confused in ciphering your answers... Quote two above seems to state that the Catholic Church does not teach that Works produce Faith according to Duck...But quote one seems to state that works do produce Faith...

Conflicting messeages?

Faith in the finished Work of Jesus Christ Saves you.

Works i.e. doing more good than bad Saves you.

This is why Catholicism produces so many Swamps, Ducks, and Madonnas...

Because the message of Salvation is taught in the Catholic Church...

But it is tempered with a Gospel that a man thru works can save himself...

So at the end of the day they are confused... a good Catholic does not know if or not he is going to make it to Heaven... He hopes and prays that he will... but he does not have confident assurence... So, he keeps trying to do enough works... never knowing if he has...

The Bible does teach that we can know... and can be assured that we are going to Heaven

[duckhunter]

You are lost if you place my faith on one with Madonna or Swamprat. Swamp does not claim to be a Christian in any form. Madonna, raised Catholic. Who knows what now. I believe that Jesus Christ is my Saviour. I believe he was born of a vigin named Mary, concieved by the Holy Spirit. I believe He was both God and man. I believe he established a Church here on earth and that the Catholic Church is that church. I believe that there have been men that were bad men that were at the head of that church and made bad decisions. I do not believe they made infallible acts in the teachings of the Church, but have made huge errors.

I believe you will conitnue to try to prove the church wrong, I don't believe it will matter to me.

It is time for me to dust off my sandals and move on.

[PA BEN]

"When the Spirit of truth is come, He will teach all truth" (John 16:13). "He will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I have said to you" (John 14:26). He will abide with you forever; and He shall be in you" (John 14:16,17). It is bt the Holy Spirit, then, that the Church is ever to posess the truth, and nothing can rob her of it. The Spirit, who was sent by the Father and the Son, will abide unceasingly with and in her.



My point about a personal relationship should be esy to grasp. You calim that only the Bible should be taught. The Boble does not claim we need a personal relationship with God. That is a tradition. A good and apprpriate one, I think. But those words were not uttered by Christ. Where are they written in red?

.
Your own words. If this it's a personal relationship what is?
And in your own words why do you pray to Mary? Why do you hold her at the same level as Jesus?

[duckhunter]

Ben,
I think there is confusion, I believe I have a personal relationship with God. I just don't see it spelled out like doctrine. Non-Catholics refer to so much to the Bible being the only truth. I do not see those words in the Bible. It is interpretation.

I do not pray to Mary. I know there are those who ask Mary to pray for them. I believe in avoiding the middleman. I hold noone at the same level as our triune God. And the Catholic Church does not teach that she is equal to Christ. The cxatholic Church does not teach that any of the Marian traditions are required for Salvation. There are traditions that some Catholics follow that I do not practice. They do not keep me from being Catholic.

[CenterPointEX]

Ben,
I think there is confusion, I believe I have a personal relationship with God. I just don't see it spelled out like doctrine. Non-Catholics refer to so much to the Bible being the only truth. I do not see those words in the Bible. It is interpretation.

I do not pray to Mary. I know there are those who ask Mary to pray for them. I believe in avoiding the middleman...

DUCK, does the Catholic Church teach that Mary can hear you pray, and then in turn pray for you?

Catholic Tradition Duck does teach this concept does it not?

You quasi acknowledge this in saying you avoid the middle man when you pray... This is Good Duck... it means you are on the right track... You have stood up on your own faith just like the reformers and began to follow the Bible... disreguarding the teachings of Catholic Tradition. Because you have begun to disreguard the teachings of Catholic Tradition Duck... your good standing with the Catholic Church is in jepordy... If you try to go into a catholic Church and begin to teach folks to "avoid the middleman", you will quickly find yourself in the shoes of Luther. You will be chastised by the Catholic Church for teaching what you have found in becomming intimate with Biblical teaching... The Bible does teach Duck that there indeed is no middle man... The Bible does teach us not to pray or to Dead people... Call it what you want Duck... getting on you knees with the purpose of bringing your petitions to MARY, in order that she would bring them to GOD.. is praying to Mary... Yes I know that the Cathlic Tradition teaches it they are venerating Mary and not praying to her... but call it what you want... it is what it is...

[duckhunter]

Did Martin Luther teach that all Catholic tradition that was not in the Bible was wrong? What did Luther write about Mary's perpetual virginity? What did Luther write about her bodily assumption?

[duckhunter]

Must still be looking up those answers.

[CenterPointEX]

OK, smarty pants... What did Luther have to say about Mary... since you brought it up you must have studied Luther? and thus know his position on Mary...

Duck, I don't discount Mary... She was chosen by God to be the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ... notice Duck whom she was chosen by to be the mother of... Chosen by God... now Duck... if Gods existance has been eternal... if as Isiah 44 says, "before me was no God formed ,neither after.", Then God had no mother... Yes, as the Bible says in Phillipians 2 Jesus set aside his mighty power and glory and took the form of man. But, Duck... He existed eternaly before he took on the form of man and thus had no mother... John 1:1 sez, "In the beginning was the Word... the Word was with God... and the Word was God... and Jesus is the Word made flesh..."
Jesus was fully God, and Fully Man, Mary had to do with being the mother of the Man part... but absolutely nothing to do with being the Mother of the God part...
Jesus was Gods Son and pre existed man. Mary was a willing delievery system, not a producer of God... Luther in no form or fashion implies that Mary produced God. Which seems to be the line of reasoning you are taking.

Now, Duck... Luther disagreed with Catholic Tradition that ran contrary to the teaching of the Bible... How could anyone in their right mind not do the same... That has been my CenterPoint in all of this Duck... Luther, neither I have a catigorical disenchantment with all of Tradition... There is nothing wrong and everything right with Tradition where it agrees with Scripture... But Duck, when Tradition trumps Scripture as the final court of arbitration on questions of Faith... then we have a problem... The Catholic Church Duck has elevated Tradition to this level... By your own admission the Catholic has on occasion erred in doing so. The teaching of praying to Mary to pray for anyone is just such a case in Point... You by your own admission Duck have a problem with this... And because you have a problem with this Duck... the Catholic Church has problem with you... The same problem with Luther... You Duck... on Biblical grounds are correct in understanding, fleshing out and acting in faith that there is no middle man between you and Jesus.

[duckhunter]

Luther taught that Mary was ever virgin.
Luther taught that Mary did not die, but was taken to heaven by God.
Luther asked Mary and other saints to pray for him. Those saints were dead to this world at the time.
Luther claimed she was Mother of God.

How about learning what the Catholic Church really teaches, not what someone you know who used to be Catholic told you their Mom believed. There are sinners in the Catholic Church just like in every other denomination. Some people believe things based on their upbringing, not on any doctrine. That doesn't mean that their denomination as a whole believes it.

[Meat]

All this baloney reminds me of the most important commandment, # 11."Thou should'nt believeth everything he readeth".Meat.

[CenterPointEX]

Luther claimed she was Mother of God... Are you implying here Duck that Luther taught that Mary produced God by giving birth to him?... That God would not exist if Mary had not done so? Luther did say that Mary was the one who gave birth to the Man Jesus, who is the Lord our God... Jesus was fully God... and fully man...
But Luther in no form or fashion taught that Mary produced God... You might be reading that into his words Duck... But Luther did not teach that.

How about learning what the Catholic Church really teaches, not what someone you know
... But Duck, when Tradition trumps Scripture as the final court of arbitration on questions of Faith... then we have a problem... The Catholic Church Duck has elevated Tradition to this level... By your own admission the Catholic has on occasion erred in doing so. The teaching of praying to Mary to pray for anyone is just such a case in Point... You by your own admission Duck have a problem with this... And because you have a problem with this Duck... the Catholic Church has problem with you... The same problem with Luther... You Duck... on Biblical grounds are correct in understanding, fleshing out and acting in faith that there is no middle man between you and Jesus.
__________________

[Orgnizdlbr]

Are you implying here Duck that Luther taught that Mary produced God by giving birth to him?... That God would not exist if Mary had not done so? Luther did say that Mary was the one who gave birth to the Man Jesus, who is the Lord our God... Jesus was fully God... and fully man...
But Luther in no form or fashion taught that Mary produced God... You might be reading that into his words Duck... But Luther did not teach that.

... But Duck, when Tradition trumps Scripture as the final court of arbitration on questions of Faith... then we have a problem... The Catholic Church Duck has elevated Tradition to this level... By your own admission the Catholic has on occasion erred in doing so. The teaching of praying to Mary to pray for anyone is just such a case in Point... You by your own admission Duck have a problem with this... And because you have a problem with this Duck... the Catholic Church has problem with you... The same problem with Luther... You Duck... on Biblical grounds are correct in understanding, fleshing out and acting in faith that there is no middle man between you and Jesus.
__________________

And people wonder why different sects or factions of organized religion kill each other.............

[CenterPointEX]

And people wonder why different sects or factions of organized religion kill each other............. I conceed OGB...No, I repeat no human organization is infallible ... Not Southern Babtists, not Methodists, Not LCMS Lutherans... and No... not even Roman Catholics... on this I concur. But... that being said... the Bible is inerrant and infallible... You can not and will not be able to make a point contrary to this no matter how hard your try... It can't be done OGB... greater men than you have tried...and failed... That being said... we are commanded by the Word to not neglect comming togather to worship God and study his word... for some OGB... this is the only place they come to hear, study and debate the virtues of his Word... The Church of Power www.powerlineman.com (http://www.powerlineman.com) if you will... For some... this is the only place they have ever heard Gods word... Praise God from whom all blessings come... Amen? If you are a follower of Jesus Christ and understand what it is I am trying to say... Can you at least get off your duff... Log on, get you a screen name and give me an Amen? I know you are ten ten and listening in... Let me hear from you... Pray for me and let me know you are doing so.

[Orgnizdlbr]

I conceed OGB...No, I repeat no human organization is infallible ... Not Southern Babtists, not Methodists, Not LCMS Lutherans... and No... not even Roman Catholics... on this I concur. But... that being said... the Bible is inerrant and infallible... You can not and will not be able to make a point contrary to this no matter how hard your try... It can't be done OGB... greater men than you have tried...and failed... That being said... we are commanded by the Word to not neglect comming togather to worship God and study his word... for some OGB... this is the only place they come to hear, study and debate the virtues of his Word... The Church of Power www.powerlineman.com (http://www.powerlineman.com) if you will... For some... this is the only place they have ever heard Gods word... Praise God from whom all blessings come... Amen? If you are a follower of Jesus Christ and understand what it is I am trying to say... Can you at least get off your duff... Log on, get you a screen name and give me an Amen? I know you are ten ten and listening in... Let me hear from you... Pray for me and let me know you are doing so.

I rest my case......

[duckhunter]

"Praise God from whom all blessings come" I can surely give that an AMEN!

[CenterPointEX]

Bottem Line!

Christianity is Not a Religion!

Religion is Humans trying to work their way to God!

Christianity is God comming to men and women thru a relationshihp with Jesus Christ...

For God so Loved the Word, He Gave His Only Son to Die for Us.........
if a man religiosly worships a toad... and is sincere... and belives the Toad will save him... in the end... does it matter?
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']
I don't know. Can the toad "save him?" If so...then I'M FOR THE TOAD!
I mean....I'm stupid CP....but damnit man...this post is just really stupid. So, Is Jesus, the "toad" here? Are you drinkin tonight? Like they accuse me of, all the time? I'm gonna have to start livin up to my "image". It's funny Swamp... that you are so quick to put your trust in a toad... But so unwilling to put your trust in Jesus Christ... Jesus who would give his life to save you...? Why is that? My Point in the Toad is that a man can be sincere... and sincerely wrong. Your heart tells you Swamp... that there is a God... and that, that God is Good, Moral, and Righteous... Your heart also knows Swamp... that a Toad will not save you... neither will a tree...nor your ancestors... nor Buddah... nor Muhammed... or Joseph Smith...
No, Swamp... Jesus is not the Toad here... My Point is that Swamp claims that all religions are equal paths to God if God exists... "Why can't we get along?" "Why can't we be tolerant?"

What part of that post do you consider Stupid Swamp? The part about Jesus so loving Swamp that he gave his only Son to pay the price for Swamps sins?

[CenterPointEX]

Origionally poste by SwampRat..." I don’t know. Can the toad “save him?” If so… then I’m for the TOAD! I mean… I’m stupid CP… but damnit man… this post is just really stupid. So, is Jesus the “toad” here?"



What Part was stupid Swamp? The Part about men worshiping Toads... believing Toads will save them? or the part about God so loving Swamp that He sent his only Son Jesus Christ our Lord to die for Swamps and my sins?

[Koga]

I see yall have been busy today ! :D

Carry on.

Koga

[LostArt]

I see yall have been busy today ! :D

Carry on.

Koga

Huh? The only one busy was CP Koga (this thread is 9 months old----a rebirth). Oh, and you can make me a sandwich while ya ain't doin' nuttin'? :D

[Koga]

except the fridge is empty at the moment. Sunday is the local Mardi Gras parade and we have a spot where we set up early Sunday morning and cook all day. Then watch the parade. Ya never know what or who youre gonna see ! About half the guys from work all come and bring the family. Its a good time !

Koga

[LostArt]

except the fridge is empty at the moment. Sunday is the local Mardi Gras parade and we have a spot where we set up early Sunday morning and cook all day. Then watch the parade. Ya never know what or who youre gonna see ! About half the guys from work all come and bring the family. Its a good time !

Koga

LOL! Ours is empty too! We are having tuna sandwiches tonight and a can soup. :D I'm a horrible wife! But, now that we are older, we aren't really all that fussy about dinner----especially on Friday nights.

Hey CP....notice tuna is fish and.........on Friday! :eek: :D

[Highplains Drifter]

7 WONDERS OF THE WORLD (http://www.catholic.org/video/?v=67)

[Boomer gone soft]

7 WONDERS OF THE WORLD (http://www.catholic.org/video/?v=67)

Thanks drifter!

[LostArt]

Great video Drifter!