Rat Defined

[Stick-it]

At the risk of offending someone. As far as I am concerned:

Rat = Someone who is out for himself without much regard to the working conditions of his co-workers or those around him. Someone who does not know or care what the union stands for. Someone who will stand up for something that benefits himself while not even giving a thought or care if it is fair to those who are equal in standing to him. Someone who will do something that will make him look good to management while screwing his "brother". -- And you are proud to be a rat??

Union = Looking out for your working brother. Protecting conditions. Standing up for one another when he knows it is right. Obeying the rules that those before you have died and fought for - whether it is something that will benefit you at that time or not. Better pay. Usually, but not always - better training and schooling. And yes, there are quite a few "ratty" union @#$%&'s out there -- you know who you are.

Non-union = Someone who desires the union benefits but does not know any better.

Scab = Lowest form of life. Scabs should be _________. (You fill in the blank)

[LINETRASH]

You have offended me, bro. (local 359, Miami).

You sound like a kid full of others' opinions.

I am a by god journeyman lineman who was primarily trained via rat contractors.

My friend Swamper chose to be diplomatic with his reply to your post, I, on the other hand, will not stand for it.

I will not even reply to your definition of a "Rat". I will instead reply to your narrow minded view of union hands.

"Looking out for your brother"???? Until I became union, I never knew the level of backstabbing could be so sophisticated!

"Protecting conditions" ??? Depends how you are connected, how much juice you got, never mind the numerous ass kissers in the bargining unit. (You see, they have to, otherwise their stupididty would certainley expose them.)

Better pay? Think again, dumbass.

"Better training"? I think I'm gonna puke.......

Finally, you give no clue as to your vaunted opinion of Union VS Non, Are you an old sage who has had the privilage of working with great linemen from all over, or a sad wag who echoes the last opinion he heard.....

Dont worry, "Stick IT". Soon you will meet many rats, as your desperate company scrambles to fill it's ranks.

You see, son, I am proud to be union, but I am not blind. You would never make a pimple on my journeyman ass.

[tramp67]

Stick-it, I guess you got your wish of offending some!:eek:
Your definition of "rat" would be a closer fit to my definition of "scab".
I would have to go along with Linetrash on this one. I've worked alongside quite a few "rats", there are some very good rat linemen out there, with a lot of good tricks and methods to teach us. I feel that the majority of rat linemen either are uninformed, unaware, or have had bad Southern experiences in regards to the IBEW. You too, Swamp. Sorry to hear you had such a bad experience with the Union, but as long as you are happy with the path you chose, that's what's most important, isn't it??:rolleyes:
I would like to see every lineman out there become Union linemen, then we would really be in a much better position to make some major changes to our trade. There wouldn't be any worries as far as management goes for contractors of some underdog being able to underbid work because they don't have to follow the same rules, pay the same wages and benefits, spend as much money on training and safety programs, etc. It would help level the playing field for contractors, and the big determining factors on who could get the lowest bids would be based on who has the best training, equipment, and safety records.
I have a strong dislike for the rat contractors, not the rat linemen. We all as linemen have the same goals - to make a comfortable living, to come home safely every night, to do the best job we can, and wanting to do something we can be proud of. Union contractors have agreed to make an attempt at treating us fair, pay us decent wages, provide us with good training and a safe work environment. What we choose to do with the training and safety equipment provided to us is up to us, we need to accept responsibility for our actions. Rat contractors are all about money, can hire and fire on a whim, can force their workers to do things they don't want to do because the contractors know it is much more difficult for a non-union lineman to find another job than it is for a Union hand - the hall is a phone call away!! That's the way I see things.:cool:

[Stinger]

Well put tramp!!!

[PA BEN]

According to swamp I was a RAT for 22 years at the same City utility. I never heard the term until I started reading these forums. I was and still am a good Linemen. I don’t know it all, I am teachable and sure enjoy working with a linemen who could show me new ways of doing this type of work.. I wont tell my whole story here you can read them on other forums; Been on both sides of the pole? Which is better; Page 1. Non-Union Issues?; Page two. :D

[wudwoker51]

A rat is a sneaky contemptible person / informer. Both sides of the fence ( union and non-union ) have them unfortunately and always will. It is up to the " Hands " on both sides of the fence to identify who they are, smoke'em out and get rid of their sorry asses.

[Stick-it]

Ok. Obviously some of you are taking this out of context. I have provided you with the definitions that I was brought up with. Linetrash, you apparently have a different definition of what a rat is. And I am sorry that you feel that I was attacking you because that is not the intent here. I have not called any one of you a rat. A rat is not a desirable term where I come from. Around here when we call someone "ratty" it means that we believe that person is guilty of falling into the definition I provided you with. Being a rat does not mean that you are not a good lineman, I could never argue that point. I do work in a state where there is less than 1% non-union. So, as far as my union definition, I guess you could say that it is the definition of how it should be. It is the definition of how it is here in the NW. I know it probabally sounds like I am back-pedaling. I am not. I am trying to provide clarity on my post.

[EyeNut]

Ok. Obviously some of you are taking this out of context. I have provided you with the definitions that I was brought up with. Linetrash, you apparently have a different definition of what a rat is. And I am sorry that you feel that I was attacking you because that is not the intent here.

What exactly was the intent here? That we should all switch to your definition?

I doubt those of us saying we don't mind being called a rat are referring to your definition. Swamp summed it up for you.



I do work in a state where there is less than 1% non-union. So, as far as my union definition, I guess you could say that it is the definition of how it should be. It is the definition of how it is here in the NW. I know it probabally sounds like I am back-pedaling. I am not. I am trying to provide clarity on my post.

Nice backpedal.:D

[LostArt]

.....staking out the joint again. :D

SEE what I mean??? Every side has their own definitions about linework, line issues, equipment, etc. all over the blasted world! But, it seems that the ones that are likely to take offense are those in the US of A! And the worst ones are those that are Northern and Southern states.

I'm proud of Swamp though. He kinda reminded me of Marshall Dillon. He just calmly posted with the patience of a saint. **tongue in cheek grin** (I didn't see that smilie).

[LINETRASH]

Your definition sounds like whats known around here as a jap or pimp.

We also know who they are and take steps to minimize their impact.

[Bull Dog]

A RAT is one who crosses a picket line to try and bust a union. A contractor who is non union is just that. Hope this clears it up.

[Orgnizdlbr]

A RAT is one who crosses a picket line to try and bust a union. A contractor who is non union is just that. Hope this clears it up.

Where I come from, a rat is a non-union contractor, a scab is union or rat who crosses a picket line.

[Goathead]

The definition of rat according to the third district rep. thats I.B.E.W rep is the owner of a non union company not its workers.A scab is a worker who crosses a picket line.

[woody]

Swamp about got it right... Up here in the northwest a RAT is somebody that came up UNION AND THEN WENT NON-UNION. A scab is anybody that CROSSES A PICKETLINE!!!!!! Otherwise its just Union or Non-union. Lots of choices out there...I know swamp wants em to be union...better pay and all; if your gonna do the work... why not be the best trained and highest paid? woody...P.S. Union... construction...Local 77... Longstanding member.

[LINETRASH]

I am sure you are a well qualified lineman.

But I have to draw the line here.

You are the second one that I have noticed who claimed that the Union is the best trainer of linemen.

While it may be few and far between anymore, I feel that the education I recieved as a traveling lineman working for a non union (rat) contractor prepared me better than any other stationary facility, union or non.

I makes you really well rounded, working on different systems, standards, voltages.

While you may be great at what you do, I'll bet I have seen things you have not.

Not that union brothers are the only ones with a missconception.

I knew guys who blasted union workers every chance they got, about how slow and lazy they are....

I was trained by great formen and linemen, union, ex-union, rat...

They all spoke the same language.

I have seen old dogs and new tricks. A different way of doing somthing is not always unsafe. An old salty lineman knows how to work it easy. I have many techniques under my belt.

The problem with working with a power co, co-op, or long term contractor is the old timers are not so willing to try new things, thus the wealth of knowlege available to a rat is not accessed by a company man.

I know alot. more than most. Please rethink the notion that a union trained lineman is superior.

I have personally proven this untrue time and time again.

'Far as the pay, I took a cut to go union 9 years ago.......

[tramp67]

Linetrash, I like all the exposure I get to different systems, voltages, methods, equipment, etc. from traveling too. There's lots of Union tramp linemen out there, many of us enjoy learning new, different tricks from each other and are always willing to share our knowledge, as well as being on the receiving end as well.
I don't know what you have for retirement, insurance, etc., but I know what I have through the IBEW is some of the best of any profession. As an apprentice, the apprenticeship has many rules and requirements set in place to try to keep us from getting hurt or killed, and they try to make sure we have the skills and knowledge to do our job safely and efficiently. Sure, there's lots to learn that the apprenticeship doesn't teach us, this trade is a continual learning experience. From what I have been told, and have seen, from linemen that came up through the non-union side, there is a lot to be desired in the way rat contractors do their training of new recruits.
A lot of hands raised in the utility environment don't have the exposure to as many different things as you and I do, but many of the utility hands have a tremendous amount of knowledge of their own system, how it's built, how it reacts, etc. There's lots for us to learn from them, and I try to learn as much as I can from the Romans whenever I'm in Rome.;) ;)

[PA BEN]

I am sure you are a well qualified lineman.

But I have to draw the line here.

You are the second one that I have noticed who claimed that the Union is the best trainer of linemen.

While it may be few and far between anymore, I feel that the education I recieved as a traveling lineman working for a non union (rat) contractor prepared me better than any other stationary facility, union or non.

I makes you really well rounded, working on different systems, standards, voltages.

While you may be great at what you do, I'll bet I have seen things you have not.

Not that union brothers are the only ones with a missconception.

I knew guys who blasted union workers every chance they got, about how slow and lazy they are....

I was trained by great formen and linemen, union, ex-union, rat...

They all spoke the same language.

I have seen old dogs and new tricks. A different way of doing somthing is not always unsafe. An old salty lineman knows how to work it easy. I have many techniques under my belt.

The problem with working with a power co, co-op, or long term contractor is the old timers are not so willing to try new things, thus the wealth of knowlege available to a rat is not accessed by a company man.

I know alot. more than most. Please rethink the notion that a union trained lineman is superior.

I have personally proven this untrue time and time again.

'Far as the pay, I took a cut to go union 9 years ago.......

Was all your training O.J.T.? What about sit down schooling? Did you go through a State approved apprenticeship? I was non-union but, went through a State approved apprenticeship. And all the schools I went to were Union run NJATC. Very good Union training.:D

[LINETRASH]

Was all your training O.J.T.? What about sit down schooling? Did you go through a State approved apprenticeship? I was non-union but, went through a State approved apprenticeship. And all the schools I went to were Union run NJATC. Very good Union training.:D

Yeah Pa, I went to a state approved apprentiship program early in my career.

Since it was in a right to work state, it was, I believe, an ABCI school.

Altough I learned alot about theory, I had my real training OJT.

Bottom line, I became qualified.

[tolex42]

"Rat contractors" employ "nonunion linemen". It has been my experience that most nonunion linemen have not heard the full story of the benefits of becoming Union or have been so intimidated by their rat contractor employers that they're afraid to pursue Union membership.

A scab is anyone who crosses a picket line, Union or nonunion. A scab is stealing another man's job. Anyone who steals another man's job will steal your dog or a child's lunch money.