Swamprat?

[dbrown20]

In the thread that I posted about Union Limits vs Rat Limits on the BS part of this forum you stated that the Highline Hotstick Crews were the "Cream of the Crop" in linework. I pretty well refuted that in my reply but I guess that it got lost in the shuffle as I saw no reply.

Once again you are talking about something that you know nothing about. I spent about 6 years on that type of crew and we also did barehanding from a bucket and from a hook ladder. I'm here to tell you that a crew such as that is nothing elite. The guys I worked with were just average linemen doing their job.

As a matter of fact the work I was exposed to I considered much safer that rubber gloving regular distribution.

I've also noticed that with some companies that barehand crews get a little more pay. Fuey. It's not that hard.

As far as hotsticking transmission stuff? Much easier that hot sticking distribution stuff.

And Big Clive. You never revealed the name of your favorite ewe. How about it big boy? dbrown20

[dbrown20]

you didn't state it as your opinion. You stated it as if it were fact.

I'm sure if you took a poll you would find the majority of people who have done both would consider glove work on distribution as the nastiest and most dangerous overall of this kind of work.

Most transmission lines consist of 90% tangent structures. Once you've done stick setups on a few tangent structures its all pretty easy to remember.

In my experience it's much easier to make the transition from Distribution hand to Transmission hand. A Transmission line, as I experienced it, was built with #1. A framing crew. #2. A setting crew. #3. A wire crew. The clipping crews were gathered up from all the crews depending on need. Still a pretty simple comcept. A distribution crew is sometimes tasked with all the above and also has to do the hot work. The variety on a distribution crew is greater by far than a transmission crew. My only regret is that I did not get to spend much time on the wire crew, in order to get the idea of the wire set ups etc. Oh well, not enough time to experience it all. Never did any steel tower construction. Not enough experience with sagging on a transmission line.

One thing about this type of work. When you die you will still have plenty to learn.

I don't know what the definition of a Journeyman's Journeyman is. I have met a few that were a lot more well rounded than others, but none who couldn't learn something new from the lowest grunt. dbrown20

[LostArt]

.....but doesn't a lineman who does alot of storm work learn a good bit of experience. It just seems like you would use the hotstick sometimes in this area. And wouldn't storms give you "some" rounded experience? I'm sure alot depends on the area and the amount of damage, but in general?

Please don't http://www.avowners.com/forum/smileys/Squatched.gif the inexperienced questionee.

[LINETRASH]

Mr Brown, I infer from your posts that you are what I call a "Real" journeyman lineman.

You have worked both, nay, all three disciplines of linework, distribution, wood high line and tower work.

There are linemen in each who will declare themselves journeyman.

This may be true, but unless you can do it all , you should refrain from critisizing others. (Not you, MR. Brown, just making a point)

In my opinion, a crakerjack distribution lineman is superior. It is far easier to adapt from finesse to brute force than going the other way.

Having done it all, I can affirm that I consider myself a journeyman with more experience than those who are limited to hi line, etc.

It is rare anymore to have a career that gives one a rounded experience in all phases in linework.

There are even different levels of distribution experience that define different types of "Journeyman"

[Trampbag]

I would like to consider myself fairly well rounded although I’m still serving my apprenticeship after 37 years.

I may not have done it all but I have worked O/H distribution 4kV to 33kv hot, both gloves and sticks (off poles and out of buckets) and even some hotshot idiocy when we worked 12kV and 25kV barehand out of a bucket (we’d have been fired, rightfully, if caught). I spent a year working transmission hot (up to 500kV) with sticks off wood and steel as well as a number of years bolting steel to clipping and spacing. I spent years working U/G in ancient brick manholes that contained multi-circuits loaded to the balls, oil switches and transformers, pulling out and reinstalling cable where there was constant threat of the manhole walls collapsing around your ears (Have you ever seen what’s left after a massive cable fault in a manhole??) I have spent time on oil platforms on the North Sea (with 100 knot plus winds and 50 foot waves) and in the Persian Gulf and many other wonderful places (I’m an electrician as well as a lineman, lineman first).

If my opinion means anything, and I consider my opinion and 2 buck won’t buy a coffee in Starbucks, I would consider that a hotstick distribution crew may be elite in the trade, and on a nice warm day, when it is not too hot, there are few jobs on the face of the earth that is more enjoyable.

When you’re in a collapsing manhole full of cockroaches and the ambient temperature in the M/H is 0ver 130 degrees because everything is overloaded, you’re covered in oil from the cable you’re pulling out and the rigging is at absolute max there is nothing in this trade quite as stressful.

But boy can you make money in those M/H’s – one hell of a lot more than on that hotstick crew. Show me the money, to hell with the elite.

[dbrown20]

worked a fair amount of variety in this work. However I realize that there is so much that I don't know, that what I don't know would make a fairsized book compared to what I do know.

Like I said there are quite a few areas that I wish I knew more. Like real heavy duty transmission const. etc. However it's not gonna happen at this stage of my life.

My opinion of a good hand is one who can do it with finesse. That's my idea of a good hand.

I do consider a really good distribution hand the cream of the crop, but I have experienced some really good distribution hands, that when you take them from the top of a 45 and put them on top of a 90 or a 100 foot pole, it changes their demeanor, if you know what I mean.

I have worked around some really good transmission hands who would make the hair stand up on your neck when doing a little hot rubber glove work. I have worked around some really good hands, that were quite a bit different when out of the bucket and on the wood. Too me it takes a very special hand that is smooth in all the aforementioned areas.

I believe one of the best hands I experienced was a product of the hall and had worked in most areas of this field.

Let me tell you his attributes. Mechanic, he was better than most professionals. Weld, he was an excellent welder. Rope work, yep knew ever knot and splice commonly used in linework. I never saw anything where he was at a loss. Physically, about 6 foot tall and 195 lbs. and could climb like the proverbial cat. Easy to get along with and just a damn nice guy. I'm sure there were areas he was lacking in but that would have been only because he had never experienced that area.

As far as non-union rat contractors. I believe they are one of the best training grounds going but they are sometimes more dangerous than union. However that dangerous aspect sometimes lets you try some things that you ordinarily wouldn't get a chance to do. It's difficult to make hard and fast rules concerning this trade because there are so many aspects of it. When you consider all the different entities that make up linework you realize that the big variety is why American hands are probably more adaptable than most. But beware the man who says. "I have done it all." I have seen some who were pretty cocky, but take them out of their comfort zone and they act like apprentices. dbrown20

[CenterPointEX]

L.A. Storm work is mostly dead work. During normal operations the companies strive to keep the lights on during maint. operations. During Storms, you kill out affected lines and turning stuff off to make repairs is not as taboo...

For me Rubber Gloving 19.9/34.5 out of the Bucket is some the hairiest sh@t one can play with. Clive and I talked about this before, but working the stuff out of the bucket here in the South, ya got to grab it real fast with one hand, then work it with the other... and don't lean on anything metal in the bucket like a wrench etc... I have seen 19/34 fires and any one within four feet of the flash would be melted. Doing this work is pure insanity. I have worked with some folks who were way to comfortable with it for my taste. I have worked with some who were way to afraid of it also... I got fairly good at cutting and closing isolators with sticks on 19kv while at CenterPoint... after working for the contractors on CenterPoint property, I wonder why I ever went to the trouble of learning to use sticks?... Gloving 19.9 is not legal for CenterPoint Employees... I don't think the contractors are supposed to be doing it... but what do ya do? I always tell em wait till I quit twitching... then call 911 if you must.

[dbrown20]

is the kind of person I have been alluding to. It is easy for me to tell that his breadth of experience far exceeds mine, but he is still in his apprenticeship. I like a person with that kind of attitude.

I have worked 7 or 8 places but am still amazed that my area of experience always exceeded 99% of the people I worked with, and I still consider myself quite limited.

I just don't like people who set themselves up as experts and really aren't. Reminds me of this tale of a guy I worked with once. He was a yellow ticket hand who came to a job, in Minnesota I believe. It was a 345 or 500 KV and was steel lattice towers. The contractor was having a hard time getting hands and was glad to get a genuine journeyman ever now and then. Now Ed was put on a framing crew which was peopled by non-union white ticket hands, none of whom were lineman. The kid who was running the crew was replaced by Ed. As they were putting some towers together this kid begain to complain. He said. Why in hell did they put you in charge? I've been on this job for more than a month. Now of course this was simple work and the kid was sharp enough to catch on and able to run the crew which consisted of others like himself. Ed replied. Because dammit, I've got yellow paper. He then pulled out his dues receipt and showed it to the kid. The kid thought because he had figured out how to put a tower together he should be the foreman and didn't understand the status of a Journeyman.

At a place I worked once I transferred and the guy was hired who replaced me. After awhile I ran into one of the hands and asked how the new guy was working out. My friend replied. Man he has got a resume that has ever thing under the sun. He was quite impressed and said this chap had been everything from a GF on down and had worked everything from Substations to powerplants plus having been a lineman on transmission and distribution and a troubleshooter and on and on. Later I saw my friend again. He said the new man had become an object of comtempt as it was realized after working with him that he didn't know shit and his resume was probably just a bunch of bull. Such things are not unusual. Kinda like guys who claim to have been Navy Seals or some such. Seen a few like that also.

I agree with Trampbag that a distribution hot stick crew is the elite of this trade. It can be very difficult at times but as some guy posted here a long time ago. Hell it's fun.

There used to be a guy that posted here whose handle was El Tigre. I have talked to him many times. He seems to have worked on all continents and done ever thing from 4 KV to 500 KV. Interesting fellow, like the Trampbag. Modesty is becoming. dbrown20

["little beaver"]

"I agree with Trampbag that a distribution hot stick crew is the elite of this trade. It can be very difficult at times but as some guy posted here a long time ago. Hell it's fun."

Ditto on the above!!