Hot Line clamps

[fastlane]

Just about everyone uses them but how many Co.'s out there permit the clamp to be installed directly on the bare wire?Seems like most places want a stirrup to attach it to.The newer type(last 30 or 40 yrs. or so) has a split washer to retain commpression that makes it a very dependable connection unlike the older style without the washer.Most of us out here would like to go right to the line(copper only for now) but we need the names of some Co's to help back up our agruement.Any ideas,good or bad?Thanks.

[JPSURF]

At So Cal Edison we use them straight to wire (copper and aluminum) but only use them on Tap lines, Transformer or Fuse Holder line side leads, and pot head taps. TAP LINE ONLY!

[Bull Dog]

Over the years I have replaced many that were hard taped directly to the phase wire. I would not recomend it with out a stirrup. Most of the ones i have change were causing blinking lights but others got hot enough to burn down the primary. I just don't think its a good idea. Yes its faster yes its easier but due to the above problems we quit it years ago.

[Mike-E]

The REA property that I'm working on goes right to the wire when it is copperweld. They use stirrups on aluminum. The only thing I don't like about going right to the line is when a hot tap is put on and cranked down with a screwdriver. I think is OK to put a little more of a twist on with a screwdriver, but think about the guy that might have to (try to)get that tap off out of his hooks with a shotgun. Even more so, that 6A copperweld breaks pretty easy when cranked on enough.

[PA BEN]

Put them right on the wire. You need to clean the wire before you place it on and use de- ox on aluminum. Used them for 22 years a my last utility and never had one go bad.:D

[LINETRASH]

I have seen them directly on a set of rods when I worked REA.

Where I am now, We use a stirrup on all aluminum conductor and on copper up to 4/0, at which point we put 'em right on the phase.

Some places offer 3 or more sizes of hot line clamp, we use 2 here.

I have seen contractors use no loads for top side stingers, they didnt know better. (A no load in our parlance is an aluminum clamp with an incorperated # 4 copper stinger made to go on the topside of lightining arrestors.)

A stirrup tends to be thicker in the center of the bail, if you put the hlc off to the side a little, I will eventually get a trouble call and find the stirrup burnt in two.

Please, no screwdrivers! You need to install any equipment with the thought that you may have to remove it with a shotgun!

[tramp67]

I've seen too many get loose, or corrode to the point that the eye breaks off when you try to remove them, and finding burn spots on the primary either from being put on with a load, or removed, or just bad connections to want to put them on without using a stirrup. But, since I work for contractors mostly, I have to do what the utility wants. So far, I haven't worked on any property yet where the utility doesn't want stirrups used. I've wrecked out plenty of stuff where stirrups weren't used, and that has made me a believer in stirrups. Sorry, but you won't get my vote for going directly on the conductor.

[linemanfrog]

We use stirrups on all aluminum conductors when installing hot line clamps. On copper conductors we use stirrups when the hotline clamp will be carrying a continuous load, but not if the hotline clamp is just for an arrestor station.

[44kv]

company that puts them straight to the line on everything,al or copper, thats sce&g, it seems like the dont use sturrips for nothing! would not suggest it though. I ve broke down primary trying to get a copper hot line clamp off of number #4 before with a shotgun, have bent sturrips but never took down the wire when the clamp was on it!!!

[fastlane]

I believe that some people have had problems with hot clamps to the line but I also know that some people have had almost zero problems because I'm one of them.It seems like most bad connections( clamps,squeezons,split bolts or whatever)go bad because of incorrect installation.Also alot has to do with climate, hot clamps dont work very well at all near our coast.The history of clamps everywhere else ( 1.4 million elect. meters) at my Co. has been excellent the last 30 yrs.We're not trying to cut corners but we would like to find safe ways to save backs with our ageing workforce.

PA BEN,Mike-E,LINETRASH,linemanfrog, can you provide any Co. names?
Thanks for the names provided and all the input regardless of which side you fall on.Anyone else?

[LINETRASH]

FPL.

You work for sdg&e?

[doug]

Where I Use To Work We Used Every Type Of Clamp Under The Sun.you Know Cheap Bid.i Was Always Told To Put The Clamps On A Basket To Protect The Wire.copper Or Al.put People Get Lazy And Put The On Armour Rods,wire Etc.it Is Nice To Show Up On A Arcing Clamp And Find It On A Basket!!!!

Then There Is All Those Home Made Basket Made Out Wire Cu,al Guy Etc.

[fastlane]

LINETRASH,
Yes SDGE.Better weather with less hurricanes than Florida.

[grey dog]

Hey Guys,
I spent twenty some years as trouble man, line man and foreman with most of the utilities in IA. Done some work with contractors now and in the past.
I learned to build it as if I had to fix it Christmas Eve. I believe in putting
a stirrup on, every time. Yes that hot tap may come loose or corrode or
even be frozen. But the stirrup keeps the line from burning down, or in the
case of corrosion or ice alows you a better chance of getting the hot tap
off without breaking the smaller conductors. I really like the ones that use two Squeezons one on each end for small wire. For that reason.

[markwho]

We rarely use hot line clamps at all any more. the last time we used some was after a change out of a burnt arm on a 3 phase lateral. We were working in rain and snow and not to give the customers on the feeder a second outage we used the clamp to energize the top of the cutouts.
We used to use hot clamps before we started gloving 13.2, and have had a few burn down some feeders from time to time. Not too many around any more. We also used to use stirrups made by Ampact. For a time we used squeeze on conn. for primary connections but have switched to single bolt vise type clamps for all installations. This makes it nice for removing taps for de-energizing lines and for accident poles. We use three different sizes, they cover all applications, from 795 to #6 on up. We do have some 954 in the air but have not personally had to make any of these connections , so i am not sure what we are using.

Mark

[west coast hand]

Sce uses them straight to line but they just started using hotline clamps a couple years ago not suprising from a company that doesn't even fuse primary risers..

[Trbl639]

At Entergy Corp., we always used stirrups............with HLC's.........from #6 copper up to 4/0 cu and on all aluminum sizes we had, all the way up to 795..............used both types.....put on with a shotgun and the squeeze on/Compression type.........on some of the older construction, there was no stirrup, but the phase had aluminum ribbon on it under the HLC, we changed them to stirrups, when ever we found em......also had some on the phase, but the HLC was on armor rod..........

going straight to the conductor is asking for trouble, especially on old 'brittle' #6 cu........dropped a phase of #6 one day where the HLC was on the wire and was loose, causing blinking lights...couldn't see up under the clamp, was lifting it with a suck-em-up, about halfway thru unscrewing it when the #6 hit the flloor........luckily, the HLC went to a pot switch, which I had pulled off/switch open, and was on a DE pole.............it didn't even spit...until it passed the neutral and hit the ground!!!:eek:

[jmorehouse24]

Sce uses them straight to line but they just started using hotline clamps a couple years ago not suprising from a company that doesn't even fuse primary risers..


On the Trans. side at SCE, when we work on the distribution, we still put all taps (tapline, cutouts, everything...) with Fargo's. "Because that is what the book says". And like state above, they go straight to the main line, no stirrup. Really a pain in the ass when you are working anything above 4kv off the pole, because it has to be done with sticks, and that fargo stick sucks. All hotline clamps should go to stirrups. Just my 2 cents.

[Pootnaigle]

Well if you dont use hot line clamps how do you pick up a lightning arrestor? surley not by hand??????????? If you ever saw a bad one go off when its energized you'd never pick up another one by hand.
As far as the connection is concerned double kearneys is way more reliable than single on the line itself but a stirrup is the way to go. Heck we used Hot line clamps on some primary jumpers where the load didnt warrant a cutout. In the old days I've even had to break 69 with em .......... talk about pucker factor........ it was definately present.

[west coast hand]

Well if you dont use hot line clamps how do you pick up a lightning arrestor? surley not by hand??????????? If you ever saw a bad one go off when its energized you'd never pick up another one by hand.
As far as the connection is concerned double kearneys is way more reliable than single on the line itself but a stirrup is the way to go. Heck we used Hot line clamps on some primary jumpers where the load didnt warrant a cutout. In the old days I've even had to break 69 with em .......... talk about pucker factor........ it was definately present.

The arrester jumper goes to the top on the pothead and we use sticks to put jumpers on it's a pain in the ass really

[lewy]

We use LLC & stirrups on all transformers, 200 amp or less riser poles. We also use them on a lot of single & 3 phase runoffs. Poot I hope you are not saying you dropped load on 69 kv on purpose with a LLC, I saw it happen once a long time ago where a guy dropped load with a LLC on 44 kv by accident, fortunately the truck did not have enough reach so he had to use a 12' gripall, if he was using a 6' he would have been burnt, he realized what was happening just as he was lifting it & let go of the stick & dropped in to the bucket. It sounded like a cannon & there was a large flash. I also never seen conductor gallop like that before.

[Pootnaigle]

Only line load and thats bad enough ......... I bleve that practise was outlawed back in the 70's. I never wouldda tried droppin a power load. Wasnt real fun puttin em back either.

[Trbl639]

Only line load and thats bad enough ......... I bleve that practise was outlawed back in the 70's. I never wouldda tried droppin a power load. Wasnt real fun puttin em back either.

I hear ya Poot!

We took a 115 Cap bank, in a sub out, to do some work on the MOD...the jumpers between the 115 Buss and the MOD were 4/0cu....came off pretty easy with a shotgun.....when It came to putting it back on..different story......just as I got the clamp about where it needed to be on the stirrup, the weight of the 4/0 would bend the shotgun........finally had to get another guy with an extendo, to help pull down on the 4/0, close to the HLC to get it back on the buss..told them substa hands, if they wanted me to do that again, we were gonna kill the buss, so we could hands on with the HLC/jumper.......shortly afterward, the papermill shut down and we didn't need the cap bank, so I never had to do that one again!!:D

[wtdoor67]

We used to drop 138 KV pretty regular in one section and put it back also. No load of course, just dropping about 20 or so miles of line. This was jumpers made up on 4 hole paddles. The trick was to open or close it with a piece of 4/0 grounding cable with those big alligator clamps. That way you didn't have to put up with all the barking and snarking while you bolted or unbolted it. I've seen it done on 69 some also.

There is a rough rule of thumb for the vars limit etc. to drop this way. I've forgotten it though. I know this guy, I'll ask him some time. Picking it up, not so bad, but breaking it a little snakey. Don't want it windy.

[wtdoor67]

Asked the guy. He was referring to load dropped on 138 KV with a non-load breaking GOAB. In this situation he said their rule of thumb was 15 Megs of load. Said he saw 17 Megs dropped once. I doubt if a situation like this would happen very often.

When we were dropping and picking up the unloaded 138 KV, it was about 20 or so miles of line. I never thought it too spooky, but you wanted to keep your eye on the task.

[Pootnaigle]

Once we were hotsticking jumpers on a vertical 138 that cornered. New wire was installed making it a tee.Using links and deadend bells the new jumpers were in excess of 20 feet long and heavy as hell ( dont remember the wire size but somehwere in the 750 range) I was in a double bucket and my buddy was helping support the jumper with a holding stick while I had a 3 ft shotgun and was gonna pick up the lineload with a jumper and then stick an ampact connection on. Needless to say I missed and the wind was blowing right back at me. My buddys eyes got big as saucers and the arc was blowing to within a few inches of my hand before I managed to make a solid connection and snuff it.He told me later that he was ready to jump outta the bucket but the holding stick and weight of that jumper had him 2 blocked. Needless to say I didnt miss again on the next 2.

[jerry]

I have aways avoided putting Hot Line Clamps on the Phase. The main reason is I have seen to many burnt up stirrups from loose hot line clamps. It is easier to replace a burnt up stirrup than put up a phase. I just retired after 45 Years and worked for Invester Utility,REA and a Muni,all required stirrrups.

[SwampRat JR.]

The best way by far is to use macks with the duckbill, to pick up your load, then install your regular jumper and remove your macks. Even just pickin up line at transmission, (just line, not load) the voltages I have done 69KV, and 115kv, I mack it, then ampact it rather than it talkin to ya. Wire sizes 336, 795 acsr. And yes we always had the new un energized half of the jumper made and secured so only one hot connection.

The whole stirup issue like they said keeps the wire up, just like useing you tails if the wire size allows you to on your jumpers.

I was brought up on tap rod, armour rod, on acsr, the hot line clamps are alot bigger than all of these little ones most places use for stirups, so it was much easier to pick up load, you could slide your shotgun on the wire and it would guide it into place.

New rules say ya cant make or break load anymore, but it was the norm as I was raised. Sometimes if the load would not break, get her back together, hope ya didn't burn her down.

Now with the smaller hot line clamps, ya can't see them worth a shit when they are in your gun, and it is easy to miss, we had a jumper break one time on a three phase, 7200/12470 feeder that feed a small town, so alot of people where seeing a brown out, getting the back feed through the delta banks, and no three phase closed banks were functioning properly, 2 am, windy as hell, I asked if we could dump the breaker at the sub because there were no cut-outs or switchs available from where the broken jumper was located, the foreman said no we will just pick it up with the hot line clamp, well he wasn't part of the we doing it, it was a buck pole, luckly an outside phase, I was on the pole, the other guy was in a bucket but he could not get a good angle, 6a CW wire, and a stirrup I had to hit, small hot line clamp, well the first time I tried it, tried comin on and the stirup just flipped, so the sky was lite up, but luckly the wind was blowin the right way and blew it so it didn't go phase to phase, second time the guy in the bucket held the stirup and all was good, it didn't move, I didn't miss, point bein, it was common for us to work that way, so ya did it, part of the job. But from then on if I was pickin up alot of load, and two of us were available, we used the macks.

Worked at a place where we had to drop 230 KV jumpers on a pretty regular bases, just so the techheads could work in a that sub on the backside of the switch, bolt,slotted connections, jumpers were awkward and heavy, and just pickin up one span she was talkin to ya, macked out all the 115 switchs useing 20' 24' 4/0T macks, then drop the jumpers so we could break down the switchs and do maintanance, even with 8 ft sticks, the jumpers are heavy and long, and it is hard to maintain your mads, alot of places just have lateral feeds, so you can not even open a section so you only have to work one side energized.

And Batts, all they seem to have here where I work is alot of #6 copper, 50 to 70 years old, anealed and and way out of sag, looks like it will fall apart if ya touch it, but the utility is gonna get there moneys worth and as long as they don't have more than 150 amps per phase on it, it is gonna stay there until load requires it to be reconductered.:eek::eek:

And Poot, a 3ft gun WTF, I suppose you were wearin gloves, toys like that are only good for pullin load break elbows. I can't get my hands on a 6'er where I work now.

[Pootnaigle]

Yeah they outlawed that 3 ft shotgun and I now know why.I spoze we were kinda daredevils back in the day and didnt even know it. Much of what we routinely did back then I wouldnt even consider doing today. Closing a cutout with a hammer handle, Picking up a lightning arrestor by hand, and using a tiny lil shotgun.

[Trbl639]

Yeah they outlawed that 3 ft shotgun and I now know why.I spoze we were kinda daredevils back in the day and didnt even know it. Much of what we routinely did back then I wouldnt even consider doing today. Closing a cutout with a hammer handle, Picking up a lightning arrestor by hand, and using a tiny lil shotgun.

Things have changed a bunch.................slapped a many an arrestor on by hand, when working off a board......get your jumper ready, turn your head and slap it on, and hope it didn't go boom!!!!

[Special ED]

Yeah they outlawed that 3 ft shotgun and I now know why.I spoze we were kinda daredevils back in the day and didnt even know it. Much of what we routinely did back then I wouldnt even consider doing today. Closing a cutout with a hammer handle, Picking up a lightning arrestor by hand, and using a tiny lil shotgun.

They may have out lawed the 3 foot shot guns.. But I still carry one.. Its one of them tools that stays put up unless its needed and the only time its used is pulling elbows or doing URD switching in small spaces like in the easements where folks didnt abide by the distances they are supposed to and you got a privacy fence one foot from the front of a padmount. Try pullin an elbow with your 8 footer then.. lol

Had a supervisor catch me one time when I had to use it and he said "You aint allowed to have that!" as he followed me into the easement. So I went got my 8 footer instead and dicked around with it for bout 20 min tryin to get it in position to pull an elbow when the supervisor said "You might need that 3 footer after all.. I'll go get it for you." I said "No shit! Thats why I hid it when yall came round to take em off our trucks..." All he said was "Good call." and left to get get the 3 footer for me..

Times have changed and alot of our work is common sense but the common sense comes from years of knowledge in the trade. Restrictions and saftey rules getting crammed down our throats by folks that aint even thought about climbing a hot pole before..

[Trbl639]

They may have out lawed the 3 foot shot guns.. But I still carry one.. Its one of them tools that stays put up unless its needed and the only time its used is pulling elbows or doing URD switching in small spaces like in the easements where folks didnt abide by the distances they are supposed to and you got a privacy fence one foot from the front of a padmount. Try pullin an elbow with your 8 footer then.. lol

Had a supervisor catch me one time when I had to use it and he said "You aint allowed to have that!" as he followed me into the easement. So I went got my 8 footer instead and dicked around with it for bout 20 min tryin to get it in position to pull an elbow when the supervisor said "You might need that 3 footer after all.. I'll go get it for you." I said "No shit! Thats why I hid it when yall came round to take em off our trucks..." All he said was "Good call." and left to get get the 3 footer for me..

Times have changed and alot of our work is common sense but the common sense comes from years of knowledge in the trade. Restrictions and saftey rules getting crammed down our throats by folks that aint even thought about climbing a hot pole before..

Hell, We got some places here that you'd play hell pulling an elbow with a 3ft suck-em-up,,,,,,,,,,we just killed it, slapped a ground on it and then pulled the elbow with rubber gloves................had one guy build his fence right over the top of the pot, just cut some of the boards shorter..........didn't like it a bit at 0300 hrs in the morning when the chainsaw removed his fence!!!!!!!!

[Special ED]

................had one guy build his fence right over the top of the pot, just cut some of the boards shorter..........didn't like it a bit at 0300 hrs in the morning when the chainsaw removed his fence!!!!!!!!

We had several home owners build their fences at the same time and no one wanted "that big green box" in their yards so they fenced around it.. Well got a partial lights call and went the transformers we thought might be feeding the house and everything checked out and made no sense so I looked at my "small world" prints.. They put the URD prints on the tiny microfilms to save space a long time ago.. Anyways found the CO number and seen it was dirrectly in line between the 2 cans we just checked.. But no one would know that.. I said "You gotta be shittin me." and the customer was like "what is it that bad?" I just took off walkin and went to where the 4 corners of their property and neighbors meets climbed up on the wood pile and took a peek.. Yep that sat the transformer... 8 foot privacy fence built right up to the sides all the way around.. Told the customer "Yeah its bad if you love this fence and you want your power fixed..." Turned the apes loose with hammers and informed the customer of the distances required to allow us a safe way to work on the equipment and that there are easements and the fence would not be re installed due to them.. Man was they pissed...

Gotta call bout that incedent also.. Seems the power company got a call over it and wasnt too happy with me enforcing thier rules for them.. Brought up the saftey risks and they shut up quick though..

[Trbl639]

Yeah, kinda funny some of the stuff you see in these UG sub-divisions! In the early 80's was in Greensboro, NC visiting my sister, they lived in an area that was still being developed, and all the UG was front lot line, right by the street, and I noticed the cans had a sticker on the front of them, saying something about not planting/putting any obstruction within 10ft (I think) of the enclosure, anyway, I saw a crew working, walked down to talk to them and got one of those stickers and brought it home, to try to get my company to do something like that, you know, an "action idea'........well they shot it down........then sometime in the 90's all the pads we got had a similar sticker on em, from the manufacturer!!!

didn't matter, people still did crap to hide the ugly green boxes!!! and back then, it was all rear lot line..........I think the company now has a new standard for new UG sub-divisions....all on the street!!!! But sometimes you have to go rear lot line to get to front lot line, and somehow it all winds up in the back yards!!!!

[Highplains Drifter]

They may have out lawed the 3 foot shot guns.. But I still carry one.. Its one of them tools that stays put up unless its needed


You evidentially have never had or seen a load break elbow fault, when they do you have a ball of fire at the end of you catch all stick the size of a basket ball. I think phase to ground is 3000 degrees and you are bragging about being three foot away. I'll guarantee you that your face is going to peel. There is a reason they got rid of three foot sticks, the loads and amps are to large for them and for your safety.

[Special ED]

You evidentially have never had or seen a load break elbow fault, when they do you have a ball of fire at the end of you catch all stick the size of a basket ball. I think phase to ground is 3000 degrees and you are bragging about being three foot away. I'll guarantee you that your face is going to peel. There is a reason they got rid of three foot sticks, the loads and amps are to large for them and for your safety.

So critical arent we? Did you read the entire post or just stop at the end of my quote and pass judgement right then and there.. Yeah I seen an elbow fail.. Hell alot of em round these parts aint even load breaks cause theres been no need to change em.. Now.. If you were to read my post in its entirety you would see my reasoning for keeping the stick. Lots of places round these parts you cant get any kind of stick into to pull off an elbow some places the 3 footer is a bitch... So tell me Sir Highplains... What do you do do then??? I know lets call it in and ask for an outage... After they get done laughing at you and send you home they will just get someone else to do it and it will more than likely be the rats... Know how they will get it off? They will pull it off by hand.. Now tell me Oh Righteous one.. Rats pullin it off by hand wearing all PPE or a union hand pullin it off with a short stick , and all PPE which one sounds better and is safer?

You come up with a better solution and get back with me.. Till then I rest my case...

And dont come back with the "Well just remove the objects in your way." Cause after my mentioned fence fiasco we aint allowed to even think about takin down a customers fence let alone move their shed or whatever may be blocking us from access..

[Highplains Drifter]

So critical arent we? Did you read the entire post or just stop at the end of my quote and pass judgement right then and there.. Yeah I seen an elbow fail.. Hell alot of em round these parts aint even load breaks cause theres been no need to change em.. Now.. If you were to read my post in its entirety you would see my reasoning for keeping the stick. Lots of places round these parts you cant get any kind of stick into to pull off an elbow some places the 3 footer is a bitch... So tell me Sir Highplains... What do you do do then??? I know lets call it in and ask for an outage... After they get done laughing at you and send you home they will just get someone else to do it and it will more than likely be the rats... Know how they will get it off? They will pull it off by hand.. Now tell me Oh Righteous one.. Rats pullin it off by hand wearing all PPE or a union hand pullin it off with a short stick , and all PPE which one sounds better and is safer?

You come up with a better solution and get back with me.. Till then I rest my case...

And dont come back with the "Well just remove the objects in your way." Cause after my mentioned fence fiasco we aint allowed to even think about takin down a customers fence let alone move their shed or whatever may be blocking us from access..



For a convert from the non union side to the Union side you are very defensive and attacking. I think the term is insecure. Yes an outage is some times the answer for safety of men and equipment. You eventually forget we teach by example and that there are folks reading this stuff trying to learn and God forbid some idiot will think a three footer is ok cause you say so and get them self hurt or killed.

[Special ED]

You eventually forget we teach by example and that there are folks reading this stuff trying to learn and God forbid some idiot will think a three footer is ok cause you say so and get them self hurt or killed.

Your the one stated I was "Bragging".. That simply not the case. That was your incorrect assumption.. I havent forgot we lead by example. But even my Ape knows that the 3 footer we have on the truck isnt to be used at all unless its absolutly needed..

Now for someone to read something on here (such as me using a 3 foot clamp stick) And think its ok when they are "illegal" to grab one and try to use it and god forbid get hurt.. I wouldn't feel guilty.. I would feel bad though.. But my only question would be where was their supervision? Someone should be able to make sound decisions with saftety in mind before being out on their own or running a crew..

The actual length of the sticks are closer to 4 foot which I do believe Hastings still sells and manufactures.. So illegal to the Left Coast dont make it illegal for the Right coast even though this power company dont want them used anymore.. Heck they dont even want you to open or close 900 amp under arm disconnects with an extendo.. They want you get a 8 foot switch stick and get it out of the bucket or off the pole.. Ever see one of them snuffers fail dropping a little load? No Bueno my freind.. Especially when the arc bucks phases.. Company policy right? Does that mean I observe it? Yeah I got no choice unless I wann find a diffrent job. Same with my 4 footer 3 footer or what ever ya wanna call it.. I dont use it due to company rules unless theres special circumstances and its only on 12kv URD systems. Not that I do it out of sheer defiance of the rules.. I do it to accomplish the job as safe as possible.

You ever operate a 3 foot shot gun stick for any reason? Bet theres been plenty of times you could have used one and if you had it you would have..

[Highplains Drifter]

You ever operate a 3 foot shot gun stick for any reason? Bet theres been plenty of times you could have used one and if you had it you would have..


LOL LOL......we used to use a MD6 and rubber gloves to pull elbows......but would I do it today? NO

[wtdoor67]

We had some one place I worked. Yes they were outlawed. I'm sure they were Boendieck (havta chek with Swamp on the Spelling) We used them for one thing. Putting the grounds on de-energized 34.5. Hell that was the Fed. govt. too.

I have cut small holes in privacy fences to run a shotgun thru. Next time go up stream from the one you have to lift off and have someone jerk it off momentarily and then rubber glove it.

Special Ed, did you ever find out about that stuff at the Airport? Start another thread or someone will bitch. I found some articles by a guy in Knoxvill who was supposed to be an expert on Ferro.