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loodvig
08-09-2007, 11:22 AM
I think you two guys are onto something realy important here. I also like the poster very much. If anything that photo should set some minds to really think about this subject. Very good job! But getting a large company to spend $700. per truck is going to take time.
It's like a bad 4-way intersection. Cars almost hit each other every day. One day there's a bad wreck and someone is killed. NOW they put up some stop signs!
Good luck guys!

LostArt
08-09-2007, 12:44 PM
For some of you who missed this article the last time I posted it, here it is again. There are many types of these machines. I sure hope the concept Kicks in with the Line Trade. You're right Lood....It will take alot of talking and promoting to get companys to "Come on Board" with this.

But there's no time like the present to start.

How about bringing the subject up at your next Safety Meeting with your company, or at Union meetings? Another reason I posted the poster as a Link, is so it can be downloaded and maintain the resolution for printing. Print a few up, and leave them around your showup, or better yet, in the offices of your Company or Utility.
Start the Talk!!

Here's the Link:
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/2007/02/28_defib.shtml

Hay LA. How about givin this a "Stickey" for a week or so.....?

Sure buddy!

I agree on the poster and the idea/concept on how you guys are displaying it. Great job.

I've been trained on those and I'm left with it when the nurse is not there. I've also had to use CPR/first aid. I also didn't realize how often you have to replace the batteries. That's another thing that some with the defribrillator might not think to check on. It's a must, about like your gloves, I'm sure.

It's something you hope you don't have to use, but it's good to know that it's there.

Moe
08-09-2007, 02:11 PM
Haven't been around for awhile but I'll tell you about Local 1249s. 1249 is located in Syracuse, NY. In our contract the Contractor pays 2.5 % to 3.5% of their gross to New York State Linemans Safety Training Fund (nothing to do with New York State). It is run by a board of Trustees, 2 from the Local Union and 2 from the NECA Contractors.

Last year they approved the use of AEDs. Before they were handed out, all the members (Linemen, Operators, Truck drivers, Cable splicers, Traffic signal techs, Groundmen and Flagmen) were given CPR, First Aid, OHSA 10 hr., pole top rescue, bucket rescue and AED training.

So far our Local has given out 100 AEDs. The first 50 were about $1200.00. The next 50 were about $1000.00. As we get more work, we'll buy more. The Trustee's, The Local, the members, AND the Contractors feel it's a small investment to be ready to save a human life. The cost of having AEDs on every crew is NOT an issue! Saving your pole buddy or another life is.

Hopefully no member of IBEW Local 1249 will have to use one or worse yet, having to have one used on him/her.

Great thread. Moe

BTW, Top Groove, you say you talk to the guys w/ Hawkeye? Ask them if they have them. Maybe not on all the trucks yet but they will be in a short time.

Moe
08-09-2007, 04:33 PM
Thanks, We are trying to take a lead in the industry. The main thing is the Contractors want them and so do the men. Also, we're a construction Local. The Utilities we work for as well as private companies and developers (windmill farms) are passing the word that we take pride in safety. Moe

harley
08-09-2007, 05:11 PM
after 3 years of trying we finnally got $10,000 set aside in next years budget for AED's. What I would like to know is what brand are you using and what was the cost. The one's I have looked at ran around $2500 each. Here's a site I found:

http://www.aed.com/

RWD
08-09-2007, 08:34 PM
Swamp that photo was one of the "Times" best photo's. Saw it in a book a few years ago. I used to use it in my safety presentations along with blown off peckers and other electrical burns.

RWD

butterbean
08-10-2007, 07:07 AM
you guys rule!!

bless you for really making this happen.


bean

thrasher
08-10-2007, 09:47 AM
Our company purchased three AED's last year, one for each line crew. This year I plan to budget for three more for apparatus and the serviceman. These guys work alone alot which is why we didn't get AED's last year for them BUT sometimes they do work with others. We are using the AED's from ZOLL Medical, the AED Plus package in a truck and outdoor rated package called a Pelican case.
Our price last year: AED Plus $1,495.00 each
Pelican Case 165.00 each

The reason for the special case is the manufacturer recommended it for any AED that rides in an unpadded tool bin on a truck. By the way the AED Plus included lithium batteries with a ten year shelf life. Although they recommend replacing the batteries after the device is used for real. We did purchase a cheaper, less rugged, Philips AED for the office as well. The Philips model we got is NOT rated for a truck.

Mike-E
08-10-2007, 11:14 AM
This is a really great thread!

When our company held the most recent First Aid/CPR training and certification, there was a section on AEDs. But the company still does not purchase them for the trucks and neither does the hall.

I am planning on asking my GF "WTF?"

Thanks Clive, Swamp and everyone else for the info.

PK270
08-10-2007, 08:43 PM
Nice job guys..

Swamp, you just need to be less subtle,:rolleyes: You make your point with that picture for sure. Nice Job

I have heard a little more talk on this lately, we may all be singing as one on this. Cool deal

BigClive
08-10-2007, 11:12 PM
Swamp that photo was one of the "Times" best photo's. Saw it in a book a few years ago. I used to use it in my safety presentations along with blown off peckers and other electrical burns.

RWD

Ah, I wondered where it had originated from. I also wonder the story behind it and shudder at the outcome of the actual incident.

What makes the poster so suitable is that the strange pose makes you look closer, then you suddenly realise the situation.

I hope this idea does get people fired up a bit and the companies start fitting out the trucks with AED's (Automatic External Defibrillators). It just absolutely makes sense. Once the linemen realise just how simple they are to use and the companies consider that they cost less than many tools used in the industry then hopefully we will see a day they are so common that linemen take them for granted as a standard part of the first aid kit.


Download the poster image and feel free to suggest a blunter message. It would be good to have a thread that named the companies that were already issuing defib units.

BigClive
08-12-2007, 06:40 PM
Again surely the IBEW should be taking the lead here. They represent the electrical workers and are only equalled by the safety authorities in their power to force companies to provide the equipment.

Compared to the rest of the gear on a line truck a defibrillator costs very little.

It really is our job to push for them to be supplied. In most cases the management of the companies probably don't even know about their availability or are just keeping quiet until the subject gets raised.

A newspaper article regarding the use of defibs to help protect lineworkers would be nice.

Koga
08-14-2007, 06:43 PM
While I was off with my knee surgery our Co. bought some. I knew thery were talked about and planned for so I have been wondering how long till we actually see em. You know by the time they are first talked about till the first ones are purchased takes time, wheels turn slow. I was surprized to see em. :eek: Yep they did buy em . And they are all installed at various locations in the office, so in case one of em sittin thier desk eatin choclate and suckin down a rootbeer in the AC starts to feel pains they can have em within a few steps. I feel better now ! Wonder when and if they will show up on the trucks. I will have a poster up tommorrow. Thanks guys.

Koga

BigClive
08-16-2007, 08:26 AM
It's not the first time someone has said that their company has bought defibrillators then installed them in the offices in case one of their management has a heart attack. It beggars belief that the operatives who are exposed to the risk of heart fibrillation through shock every day are denied access to this equipment while the management make it available for themselves. This is especially disturbing when you consider that the defibrillator units have a much higher chance of resyncing a healthy heart that has been knocked out of sync by electrical current than a fat caked unhealthy heart that has packed in due to the indulgent and stress laden lifestyle of the typical office worker.

tolex42
08-30-2007, 08:54 PM
Seriously.....

Pitiful.

So much for "Brotherhood" and Safety for Linemen.....:(

"Talk" Safety.....

Step up to the plate...Talk about THIS Subject.

Ya know, I'm startin to loose respect for this trade that I Love.....
I understand though.

The IBEW is really all narrowbacks and office workers now days.

LINEMEN Founded the IBEW. Just can't take back control of it....

Portable Defibrillators, They really ain't that important to the "Majority" of the IBEW.

AND, the Linemen they ARE Important to...are just too complaciant to speak up....

Like i said..."Pitiful"

Swampstupid,

I did not think it was possible, but I believe you are even more stupid than George Bush. The IBEW does more for the safety of linemen in one year that all your nonunion companies combined, do in 25 years. And how would you know anyway. You're just a third class clum sum, single phase lineman working for some fourth rate nonunion outfit. I heard someone told you to get a grunt bag, so you grabbed your crotch. You're not even qualified to carry my tool bag.

Do you have a defibrillator on your truck. I doubt it. Why don't you walk into the office and say "Mr. Boss, can I have a defribrillator..... if you get me one, I'll wash your car Saturday mornings...... me and the boys will pay for half of it Mr. Boss..... we'll get you a nicer shotgun next Christmas Mr. Boss."

You wouldn't even have line hose or hard hats if it wasn't for the IBEW.

Moe
08-30-2007, 09:10 PM
OK. Someone asked me awhile ago about what kind of AEDs are issued to the Contractor crews in IBEW L.U. 1249 (Syracuse NY). They are Phillips Heart Starts.

Like I said before, the Contractors pay (I believe,don't quote me) 3% to 3.5% of their gross (hours they work) into our safety program (it's negotiated).

Then the Trustees meet 4 times a year to decide what to do with the money. There is money to test ALL for random drug testing, to drug test ALL travelers who come to work in L.U.1249, for ALL members in 1249 to obtain CDL physicals every 2 years. Wait theres more.

2 sets of FR bib coveralls (summer) and 3 long sleeve Henley shirts are issued every summer for All men. In the winter, ALL men get 1 double thick sweatshirt and insulated bibs. ALL men receive 1 set of FR rain gear.

ALL MEMBERS receive 50% back on a pair of boots (whether line boots or safety boots) up to $150.00). The boots must have EH sole and a Safety Toe. (Operators and Groundmen are not required to where line boots, I know, you all knew that). But they must meet the requirements.

Next, ALL safety glasses are supplied (prescription also, up to $250.00). They also supply a Bucksqueeze to all who work on National Grids Property.

Oh, I almost forgot, they also supply a FR harness to ALL when in a bucket.

To make a long story short, anything FR or safety related is supplied by Local 1249s safety training program. It is called New York State Linemans Safety Training Fund. AND,,,,,,It is NON Profit. All money goes to keeping the men SAFE.

BTW They also have their own Lab to test rubber gloves (every 30 days), sleeves (every 60 days), Bucket trucks, liners, blankets, sticks, hose, every 6 months. There is a lot that we do.

I'm not bragging, I'm just a member. But I KNOW Local 1249 SETS the standard in the Northeast! Not bad for a Construction Local.

BTW I would also like to see a narrowback Local top that. Never mind,,,, I won't go on about the narrowbacks.

I know I didn't even cover it all. I'll go have a beer and take a break. This typing sux. Moe

Moe
08-31-2007, 12:42 AM
I forgot to mention that 1249 has 2 test trucks also. One is set up to go to job to job and test gloves, sleeves, trucks, liners, etc. What ever the men or contractor needs.
The other is in the Northeast (New Hampshire, Manhatten, Mass., or someplace in NY) testing strickly for Verizon (telephone). They have a contract w/NYSLSTF to test all rubber gloves and blankets.
Don't forget, there is a lab at the Union Hall too. A lot of contractors UPS their gloves and sleeves to them and they get shipped back usually the next day.
It is one busy operation. Go figure, 40 or 50 contractors, not all have testing each month but most do. Like I said, "one busy place".

tolex42
08-31-2007, 10:00 AM
Do you have one on yours Mr. T?

All I was saying was, The LINETRADE, LINEMEN, need to promote this subject to their respectible Unions and Companys, and TALK THIS SHIT UP!

All you want to do is get in this Serious thread and rag on me. Help yourself you little pittiful man.

I was 38 years in this magnificant trade, and I'm retired, and lovin it.

BUT, I still Love this trade and will do anything I can to promote this subject, and get defibs on every Line crew. Thanks to Clive, I've made it a "mission", bein as I'm just sittin on my ass and playin with little boys like you.

You spend your time "playin with me" boy...instead of promoting this subject to your Union or employer.

Now Moe, and L.U. 1249 sounds like a Union Brotherhood I'd be proud to to be a member of. AND, That man, knows the difference between serious talk and bullshit like you spew.

Back in the day, Moe and I have "had our words".
On a subject like this, there's only 1 point of view. "This is good for Linemen".

You got anything to "Contribute" on THIS Subject Mr. T?

Or ya just want me to "try" to carry your heavy bag of Line Bullshit "Sir".:D

It's hard to carry your bag sir, when I'm tryin to hold my crotch too!! :D :D

Comeon man....Is YOUR company/Union even Thinking about Defibs for Your Line Crews? Have YOU even Asked?


Whenever you take a cheap shot at the IBEW I am comeing back at you with both barrels.

When I get time, I'll list all the things my Local does for the safety and well being of its members

BigClive
08-31-2007, 11:24 AM
I forgot to mention that 1249 has 2 test trucks also. One is set up to go to job to job and test gloves, sleeves, trucks, liners, etc. What ever the men or contractor needs.
The other is in the Northeast (New Hampshire, Manhatten, Mass., or someplace in NY) testing strickly for Verizon (telephone). They have a contract w/NYSLSTF to test all rubber gloves and blankets.
Don't forget, there is a lab at the Union Hall too. A lot of contractors UPS their gloves and sleeves to them and they get shipped back usually the next day.
It is one busy operation. Go figure, 40 or 50 contractors, not all have testing each month but most do. Like I said, "one busy place".

That sounds like a really progressive branch of the union Moe.

Tolex... Don't turn this thread into a pissing match. The issue of defibrillators is much more important than you seem to think. Hopefully it won't take a failed attempt at manual CPR on your favourite co-worker to make you realise this.

The issue isn't that the unions aren't against the AED's, it's the simple fact that they don't yet seem to realise that the machines have become affordable and easy enough to use that they are now suited to travelling in linetrucks for use by the crew.

It's your job and ours to let them know that these life saving devices are ripe and ready to go.

The IBEW is the perfect organisation to investigate the best type of unit for lineworkers and then possibly negotiate a deal with the manufacturers to make the machines available to all.

Orgnizdlbr
08-31-2007, 07:18 PM
Clive, you and Swamp have lit the proverbial fire under my ass. I will make every effort to convince the powers that be that AED's belong on every linetruck on our property.........

jetsam64@yahoo.com
09-01-2007, 08:08 AM
I would try to bring this up to the safety commitee,but after getting reported to the ethnics line for being a racist against gays,I will probably be removed from the commitee.

LostArt
09-02-2007, 09:04 AM
Clive, you and Swamp have lit the proverbial fire under my ass. I will make every effort to convince the powers that be that AED's belong on every linetruck on our property.........

If you find a way to present it to your company that will make them stop to listen, without the costs of money leaving their hands, will you let me know how you did it please?

LostArt
09-02-2007, 09:12 AM
I would try to bring this up to the safety commitee,but after getting reported to the ethnics line for being a racist against gays,I will probably be removed from the commitee.


I don't think so man. Really.

How could bringing up a subject like THIS, be "determential" WHAT SO EVER?

Are you a WORKIN Lineman? Just curious....

I think he means the picture. You know, the one that you suggested that might make the guys squeezy?

It's a great way to get one's attention, no doubt. But, how many men feel comfortable wearing pink or a pocketbook over their shoulders? Not many LINEMEN, I'm betting. :D But, there are some men that have never felt threatened by their masculinity by wearing a pink shirt or their wives pocketbook over their shoulders------but, those are probably a very limited few. ;)

BigClive
09-06-2007, 09:39 PM
I'll let the video do the talking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW-PBDXc5R0

BigClive
09-06-2007, 10:00 PM
A UK site showing the Phillips HeartStart FRx which is designed for rougher environments and comes with an optional Pelican case.

http://www.defibrillators-uk.co.uk/html/heartstart_frx.html

Incidentally, for those dudes with a hairy chest it's a bit disturbing to know that the hair can prevent proper contact of the pads and requires a bit of a pad "waxing" as shown in this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuIxRwoh3do

I guess if the other option is death then that's no big deal really. :)

BigClive
09-07-2007, 05:41 AM
Yeah,
I've worked with a couple "gorillas", :D !
Good stuff man.
WALK Safety like ya TALK it." :(

It would almost make sense that a small battery hair trimmer be added to the first aid cabinet, although that would inevitable be used for "bad" pranks. :)

thrasher
09-07-2007, 10:40 AM
The AED's that we purchased have a small kit with them that includes a pair of scissors for cutting away clothing with jammed or torn zippers and a "safety razor" to do a quick shave job. The instructions stress the shave does not have to be close just good enough for the pad to stick. Kit also includes gloves and a breathing mask to do CPR.
By the way when I had three heart bypasses done in 2002 they shaved me close from the shoulders to the knees, in six months it had grown back and you couldn't tell I'd been shaved. Although the "nubs" itched like hell for the first month.

BigClive
09-07-2007, 10:09 PM
You know when defibrillators have come of age when you can buy them off the shelf at www.amazon.com !!!

BigClive
09-24-2007, 02:55 PM
A fascinating history of defibrillators on Wikipedia:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defibrillation

BigClive
09-24-2007, 03:57 PM
Clive asked me to come up with a poster expounding on the benifits of Portable Defibrillators in the Line Trade.

He said "Keep it simple and to the point". Here's what I came up with.

He also would like any comments or suggestions to make the poster better. It sure seems, having a Portable Defibrillator on every Line Crew would be an Incredible Idea.


Here's some new text for the poster Swampy.

"Portable defibrillators were first developed in 1920 by an electrical engineer with the support of the electrical industry to save the lives of power line workers. During their development they also discovered CPR."


"Every utility truck should have a defibrillator. It's why they were invented!"

BigClive
09-24-2007, 06:17 PM
Hi Swampy. You've stuck an extra "e" in development.

Moe
10-21-2007, 07:16 AM
We sure are Attempting to!

BigClive
10-21-2007, 01:17 PM
I think if the average lineman got a demonstration of one of these at a safety meeting and realised how easy it was and yet how much it improved the percentage of survival, then they'd all want them.

Once the scale tips their uptake will gather momentum until it's illegal NOT to have one on a linetruck.

Remember guys. The frickin' thing was designed for YOU in the first place!

scammy
10-25-2007, 10:38 PM
was the aniversery of my brothers life saving event,,,he recalls almost nothing ,,,,of that day,,or should I say night ,storm trouble,,wire down,,I was not on this job,,,,but here is what happend,,one man on the pole .one man in backyard bucket,one on the ground,,,they were resaging open wire secondary( # 2 copper)maybe a twig or branch came into contact with the primary,,( he is an exellent and safe lineman),,,contact was made ,,resque happend,,by coincidence care flight was returning home ,,,directly overhead,,a police officer was in the area and on his way to go (off duty but took the call anyway)he had a defibulator,,it was used 4 times,,,,it saved my good friends life,,,,,like I said he is a goody ,not like some shitters who look for a excuse not to work,,a few months in the hospital,,,an the loss of a finger,,and some exit wounds in the chest and arms ,,,I got my buddy back ,,but now he can only count to 9,,,,,,,,but I still love him ,,,,,,,,in a manly lineman way,,,defibs save life ,,also other equiptment like the censor fireman use to alert them of hot wires,,,we need to make a stand and DEMAND this type of equiptment,,,while our CEOs..and CFOs give themselfs 500and 700,,THOUSAND,,DOLLAR bonuses,,that is money that can be well spent on better things ,,,,,,its time to stand up,,scammy

BigClive
10-26-2007, 12:59 PM
He can only count to nine? Has the incident had a fairly severe and long lasting effect on his mental abilities?

There's no doubt that defibrillators are essential in the electrical industry. It would have been even better if one had been on site. Just minutes later and that cop would have been on his way home.

scammy
10-26-2007, 05:35 PM
clive he has no permanent brain damage ,and climbs all the time,,,but one of his fingers was blown off,,,at our shop,,any survivable accident ,,,were no one is killed ,,,,is fair game to make fun of,,,also handycapps and any other reason to laugh is fair game ,,and thanks for the heads up on the voltage detector,,I will start with the defibulator first,,,,now ,,,,,,,,,,,,scammy

PSE Lineman
02-03-2008, 12:03 PM
I printed out a few of those pictures and posted them in a few offices. I also e-mailed it to the union rep to give to the other shop stewards to post at their locations. Thanks guys . I wonder how many will get torn off the wall by some management puke...The look on one face was priceless when I showed it to him...he said with eyes wide , holy shit...

mainline
02-03-2008, 04:44 PM
If you look at ebay under line equipment you can get some info on the picture in the poster. It was taken in on july 17 1967, the electrocuted lineman was Randall Champion. He recently died of a heart attack at 67. A line apprentice named J.D. Thompson saw what happened and performed the rescue. The Photo was awarded the pulitzer prize. I love this picture it expresses all that is noble in our profession. A lineman could despise another lineman and would still be the first one up the pole to rescue a brother. AEDs are lifesavers, they should be on every truck. Thank you for bringing this up. It will be my new safety meeting goal. I have asked when it comes up at first aid and they always say we are thinking about putting them in office buildings. Great we can have some dipshit pencil jockey saved when they usually have help close anyway. I will push, Swamp I don't give a shit if you are non-union or not or whether I like your politics, when you are right you right. Thanks for the push guys I will bring the poster to my next meeting. Swamp how big a file do you have, by the way, can it be blown up to poster size and still look good.

BigClive
02-03-2008, 05:54 PM
To find out that the guy in that picture survived is brilliant. I just suddenly felt a rush of warmth go through my body. :)

Here's the listing number:-

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310020110388


And the info the guy has put on it:-

A GREAT GIFT ! you are bidding on a high quality ,high gloss reproduction photo of a pulitzer prize winning photo taken july 17th 1967. this photo titled ''kiss of life '' the two power company lineman were working on a line when suddenly one worker was severly shocked by a wire.his co worker apprentice j. d. thompson saw what happen and reacted with quick intelligence. he climbed the pole to where his partner was dangled and instantly began mouth to mouth resucition. the lineman was revived norrowly escaping death.this prize winning photo was taken in jacksonville, florida by rocco morbito a local newspaper photographer. being a lineman myself i fine this gripping photo touching for we know that these things can happen. the photo is much nicer than my camera allows. this photo will fit into a standard 13 by 10 frame. the mat color may be different than the one pictured. i have sold several of these on ebay to lineman all over the world and at local shows. the lineman in the photo whose life was saved has recently passed away. randall champion died of heart failure at the age of 64. our prayers go out to his family and close freinds. . i have recently retired after 35 years working as a lineman working for a power company in upstate new york . '' work safe '' tom

Nate
03-17-2008, 08:57 PM
Swamp that photo was one of the "Times" best photo's. Saw it in a book a few years ago. I used to use it in my safety presentations along with blown off peckers and other electrical burns.

RWD

Im thankful that we have them, we carry them on all our line trucks and vans some crews have an extra in the pick ups. We have a refresher class every year and I make sure that my crew knows where they are located on each truck. I also let any hand that is filling in on any day know where they are and ask them to tell me how they work. I sometimes run a crew drill. On what we do as a crew if there is a possible contact. I think it keeps us on our toes. I would like to add that you check the battery every week. We have had some drop around half the power, our safety department told us that they would still work we bitched enough and get them replaced when need be.

Dbearman
03-17-2008, 10:09 PM
Great topic and a Must for all line crews in my opinion . I will print out the poster and put it on our Union board . The company tried to buy them for the office ( go figure ) but even that was not approved by the board of directors . Its all about the money and to hell with safety equip. thats not mandated by OSHA . Bear

BigClive
03-17-2008, 10:26 PM
I think we could do with a new poster image though. That one is a bit old fashioned and slightly sensationalistic.

Any volunteers for a posed shot of a lineman on the ground being given (fake!) CPR? Keeping in mind that the more realsitic and grim it is, the more the message will be driven home.

Incidentally, I emailed a few companies about whether they issued their guys with defibrillators or not. None of them replied.

woody
03-17-2008, 11:11 PM
remember the picture like it was yesterday...gave everybody pause...remember the the foto-journalst won a prize...pulitzer they call it...give it for print journalists and print foto's. kinda like the oscars...but much more important...up there with some little trophy called the nobel prize. it,s really important to some serious newsies...when there not distracted by free buffetts or an open BAR. Remember it being a lineman being rescued by an apprentice...THE GIFT OF LIFE!!!!!!!. LISTEN UP ALL YOU APPS >>>>MAYBE SOMEDAY YOU CAN BE IN THE HALL OF FAME. APP saves a lineman. woody. ps. fighting for AED's ...take one to work...paid for it myself. woody

BigClive
03-18-2008, 08:30 AM
I guess the existing one does have "shock" value, and the odd image does make people look closer.

I think the main message to drive home is that the machines were originally invented for linemen. Really, it's going to take more accidents until a lawyer turns round and says "Why was there no defibrillator?". And the more you guys bring the subject up, the less defensible it will be not to have issued them.

You bought one yourself Woody? Excellent. What did your co-workers think when you showed it to them?

woody
03-18-2008, 10:22 PM
hey clive...they were stoked, but really the aed's are proven life savers. The first responders oath is we can't make the situation worse...so what the hell lets do anything to make it better. I'm hoping to shame the company into buying some...but things move slowly here...especially change!!! I will say this though...recently it was reported that a passenger died on an international flight into miami fla and one of the contributing factors was the onboard AED's batteries were dead! Prices on these devices are coming down but it's still a new device that has only recently been sold to the general public. change happens...but unfortantly slowly. woody P.S. KEEP UP THE CAUSE AND THE FIGHT!!!! GOOD THREAD!!!!!!!

neil macgregor
04-18-2008, 04:59 PM
clive and everyone else is right we should have de-fib,s on site
but it will never happen it,s cheaper to give out a little composation every now and again than give every crew a de-fib
these are the sorry facts

BigClive
04-18-2008, 08:47 PM
Given the price of a defib unit, you could buy one for every crew in Scotland for a fraction of a single claim. We're talking well less than a grand now.

Of course, this being Britain, they cost twice as much here as in America. :mad:

Cheezer
07-08-2008, 04:32 PM
I know this is an old post but I have to add my two cents. Our company finally got one de-fib in each service center. They had an order in to get one for each floor of each service center, but the legal department chirped up saying the legal ramifications are too great! Some clown in one service center sent an e-mail saying he was a do-not-resucitate. One guy who doesn't want to live, screws the rest of us who do! As far as getting them in the trucks-it'll never happen. Our union proposed paying half the cost for however many devices the company would purchase but they balked at that. As someone said-it's cheaper to pay out a little compensation once in awhile-goes on a different budget.

Lnhnd13
07-08-2008, 05:36 PM
AEP is supposed to be getting them in the trucks. We'll see.

BigClive
07-08-2008, 06:28 PM
There's going to be an avalanche effect at some point and all companies will start issuing them.

As far as the law goes... A defibrillator will not attempt to restart the heart unless it is in a state of fibrillation. At that point the person is technically dead. At that point you can only make things better.

As far as the "do not resuscitate" wanker goes... Just make sure there's a big sign next to the defib that says "DO NOT USE ON JOE WANKER." or whatever his name is.

All defibrillators should come with the words "Do not use on lawyers!" printed on their lid. :rolleyes:

Is it time for a defib/AED recap yet?

Cheezer
07-14-2008, 09:46 AM
Swamp-

I wouldn't say I'm embarrassed, but I'm defineately not proud. I work for Xcel energy in MInnesota-used to be a great company when it was NSP, but since the merger with NCE it has gone on a perpetual slide. It used to be the employees were considered assets instead of liabilities.

IronLine
08-15-2008, 07:27 AM
Hey ya'll!! After some mild discussion and the putting of my apprentice foot down, we got a CPR/First Aid/AED Program started here at work. I was a medic for 4 years before coming here, I brought it up, and now I got the responsability of the training hahaha. Anyways, was curious if anyone here was familiar with the safety practices of using an AED while on a steel tower? I'm assuming that since contact is being made with the steel that any charge delivered by the AED could easily track to the steel, either dispersing that shock or causing some damage to the injured man. Any input? Fired off some emails to the manufacturer of our AEDs and still waiting on a reply.
Also, whenever we transfer off to the towers, we are wearing our Faraday Suits. For anyone out there who doesn't know, its your typical barehand suit, socks, gloves, bibs, and jacket made of a combination of Nomex and Stainless Steel. Now the idiot proof answer would be to completely remove the suit prior to delivering the shock, but any ideas about trying to remove the gloves and socks as well as the top and bottoms?
Thanks ya'll!

BigClive
08-15-2008, 08:47 AM
The AED pulse is delivered between the pads and has no reference to earth/ground, so it does not pose a risk on steelwork. Ideally thre victim would be lying on a flat solid surface when it was applied though, to facilitate CPR.

The only requirement if the recipient is wearing a conductive oversuit is that the chest is exposed for the application of the pads. The suit could remain on.

I think the most important aspect of training linemen in the use of the defibrillator is to make them realise that it was designed for THEM, is easy to use and something they should be proud to have in their truck.

Just for reference, I'm doing the power and lighting on the Edinburgh Military Tattoo at the moment, and the defibrillators we have on site are the Philips Heartstart ones.

IronLine
08-17-2008, 05:49 AM
I gotta tell ya I like the Philips. As a medic I'd run across a lot of them, but these are undoubtedly "Lineman Proof". I'm still waiting on a reply from the manufacturer about the suits, my company's pushing hard to get some regulation set in stone regarding the hotsuits in a CYA attempt here, and they want some technical documentation behind it. I understand that the pulse is designed to travel specifically in a biphasic manner between the two pads, but if there is no danger of tracking, why does the person have to be removed from say, a puddle of water, prior to use? (Some aspects of the AED's still elude me lol)

Cheezer
08-21-2008, 05:54 PM
I'm no expert and can only go by what I've seen, but we had a friend of ours have a massive(and eventually fatal)heart attack while playing hockey. He was on the bench when this happened and this seemed like the best place to do CPR. The paramedics arrived with an AED and used it on him while he was on the metal bench. When the charge was delivered, there was distinct tracking on the metal bench. This could have been from the moisture and sweat on his body, I don't know. Not a good night.

BigClive
08-22-2008, 05:36 AM
Sorry, that must have been an unpleasant experience.

It looks like I'm learning more about AEDs now. I would have thought the charge would have been confined to the chest area between the pads with a modest gradient around them. I guess the sweat on the skin would have made it highly conductive across the surface. Something to learn from.

grey dog
09-06-2008, 10:22 AM
Here in the mid west UlC has been setting up a new operations area for 17 line maintenence crews. PLease understand this is everything from hammers
to buckets, hot stick trailers, live line equipment, presses, dies and everything else a crew will need to work on high line and transmission subs.
We have a tool committee that has put in many many hours on this. By the way, that group is made up of line hands that will be using the tools and equipment themselves. Not a bunch of office accountants and REMFS.
On that tool list are AEDs for each crew.
Had it not been for this on going discussion on Powerlineman I doubt that those would have been ordered.
I was in an office at my old co.(Alliant) and saw that they do have AEDs now, it was right there--- on the WALL in the OFFICE!
Then they wonder why many of the linehands left to join ULC's crews.
I'd like to thank all of you that have taken the time to write in about AED's. Keep it up. YOU are making a difference in the lives of your brothers.
Thank YOU
Grey Dog

BigClive
09-06-2008, 11:18 AM
Sounds good! Now we just have to make the other guys realise that it's something they should have too.

I get the feeling there's going to be an avalanche effect. Once they start appearing in line trucks on a regular basis others will want them too.

There's a point that the companies without them will face serious legal charges for failing to provide what is basically a common sense piece of gear in the power industry. I mean it REALLY was originally invented for linemen just as my signature line says.....

IronLine
09-06-2008, 01:19 PM
Hey there ya'll, I finally got ahold of the Philips engineering department and got ahold of some unpublished tests that they conducted regarding the possibility of voltage tracking through the surrounding environment, if anyone wants it please PM me and I will email it to ya!

hawaiilinemen
09-13-2008, 11:56 PM
All of our bucket trucks are equiped with an AED and it saved my friends life about a year ago. After his incedent we are trying to get to AED's per crew so that when there are 2 men in the bucket if need there is a AED for both of them. This was a result of my friends incedent where him his partner were both hurt and an AED can only be used on one person. Lucky for them only of them needed the AED otherwise who has to chose which guy gets to have his life saved and which one doesn't go home.

BigClive
09-14-2008, 04:09 PM
Technically speaking with spare pairs of pads you could use one AED on two people, but it's not an ideal situation at all. There would be a delay in using it on the second victim, although that would be better than no treatment at all.

BigClive
09-14-2008, 04:23 PM
Hey there ya'll, I finally got ahold of the Philips engineering department and got ahold of some unpublished tests that they conducted regarding the possibility of voltage tracking through the surrounding environment, if anyone wants it please PM me and I will email it to ya!

A summary of that report is that when an AED is used on someone lying on a wet or conductive surface, the risk of shock to someone else in the vicinity is extremely low if they don't place their hands in the vicinity of the pads when a pulse is applied.

This is due to the electrical current delivered by the unit being independent of ground and being applied between the pads. While it's possible that current can track across sweat soaked skin to adjacent conductive surfaces like conductive clothing or metal surfaces, the bulk of the current will still pass through the desired area.

If you had to actually use an AED up high on a girder or something, it would be a good move to wear suitable gloves if you had to hold the victim as the AED was used. Probably not a very likely situation.

hawaiilinemen
09-14-2008, 11:19 PM
I have been told that you can shut it off and restart it. Our safety department has told us that it is suposed to stay on the patient that it was originally put on and does not come off until they reach the hospital. So for that reason that is why we asked for two per bucket. Suposedly they can get information off the AED about that patient that it was used on like an EKG type reading or something.

IronLine
09-15-2008, 06:45 AM
As a prior medic I can tell ya that yes, some AEDs do maintain a record of the originial arrythmia that was found, others don't. When we would show up on scene though the first thing we would do would be strip off the AED on the scene and attach our own defibrillator. (We would be using a LifePak12 or something similar)

CPOPE
09-26-2008, 07:39 AM
Shocked electrican revived by defibrillator
September 25, 2008
A 20-year-old electrician whose heart stopped beating after he received an electric shock at a business in Melbourne's east today was revived by a security guard using a defibrillator.

- Electrician, 20, receives electric shock
- Heart stops beating
- Security guard uses defibrillator to revive him

The guard at the business at Ringwood grabbed the public access defibrillator and used it to deliver a small electrical charge that restarted the man's heart.

When intensive care paramedics arrived five minutes later, they gave the man a combination of drugs to sedate him and inserted a tube to improve his breathing.

Victorian paramedic Paul Rankin said it was vital that large corporations and businesses have public access defibrillators available for such emergencies.

"The quick thinking by the staff member was very impressive and that's why the ambulance service encourages large organisations and buildings to have access to these defibrillators on site," Mr Rankin said.

Defibrillators would greatly improve the chances of someone surviving accidents such as electric shocks, he said.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/shocked-electrican-revived-by-defibrillator-20080925-4nuo.html

CPOPE
11-30-2008, 05:39 AM
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/print/6921

At its best, the human heart is a supple machine. When the hydraulics work as they should, an electric current rhythmically moves blood through the heart’s four chambers. Electric impulses travel along specialized fibers and then dart from cell to cell, causing the muscle fibers to contract and relax as regularly as a second hand ticking around a clock face. When they contract, the muscle fibers create high-pressure regions that push open the heart’s valves. Blood pours out of one chamber into another, and just ahead of the blood travels the current, methodically exciting the right fibers and cells in sequence.

But when things go wrong, that current can incite incredible chaos. If a heart is stricken by ventricular fibrillation—a common type of cardiac arrest—then its once-orderly conduction devolves into a scattering of impulses. These impulses travel through the heart as little wavelets, causing unsynchronized tightening and releasing of the muscle fibers in the ventricles, the two lower chambers of the heart. Without synchronization, blood flow ceases; starved of oxygen, other organs rapidly begin to fail. Within 10 minutes, the victim will almost certainly die.

About one-fourth of all deaths in the developed world can be attributed to cardiac arrest—an astounding figure, and one that now has a chance to drop, in no small part because of the automated external defibrillator. AEDs are designed to shock a heart that’s in ventricular fibrillation back into a healthy rhythm. The device is now so easy to use that even an untrained bystander can administer this time-critical and highly effective medical procedure. AEDs, which fit into a case the size of a lunch box [see “Simply Saved”], can now be found in hundreds of thousands of public places, including office buildings, transportation hubs, and gyms; they’ve also been installed in police cars, in schools, and even on the International Space Station. As the price continues to drop—units can sell for as little as US $1000—some experts are urging people at high risk for cardiac arrest to keep an AED in their homes, just in case.

The AED’s widespread dissemination represents one of the greatest engineering success stories of the last few decades. In just 20 years, improvements in defibrillator design—in the efficacy of the waveform that delivers the electric shock, the way that the unit’s energy is stored and delivered, and the AED’s overall ease of use—have made it so that a layman can operate it with little more than a quick tutorial.

The inherent violence of an electric shock stands in stark contrast to its potential therapeutic effect. In fact, the origin of electrical defibrillation can be traced to both electrocution and efforts to electrify the United States in the early 1900s.

Engineers and medically inclined experimenters had long observed and tinkered with the potential of restoring life with electricity. Some of the first dedicated research into the mechanisms of electric shock, however, emerged from quite the opposite effect—electricity’s ability to kill. When General Electric, the company cofounded by Thomas Edison, switched from direct-current to alternating-current transmission in the early 1900s, linemen began to die from accidental electro*cution. In response, GE funded research at several universities to study what made electric current lethal. Two electrical engineering professors, William Kouwenhoven and Guy Knickerbocker, at Johns Hopkins University, in Baltimore, tested the phenomenon by shocking stray dogs to death. Serendipitously, they noticed that a second ac shock could sometimes bring an electrocuted dog back to life.

BigClive
11-30-2008, 11:27 AM
The AED’s widespread dissemination represents one of the greatest engineering success stories of the last few decades. In just 20 years, improvements in defibrillator design—in the efficacy of the waveform that delivers the electric shock, the way that the unit’s energy is stored and delivered, and the AED’s overall ease of use—have made it so that a layman can operate it with little more than a quick tutorial.


And yet they aren't always to be found in the place they were originally designed for.... the linetruck.

C'mon guys, show this article and start hounding your management for them. it might be useful to hint at the legal implications of NOT having them in the trucks. I mean, it's kinda staggering that guys who are expected to work on live AC power are NOT issued with these devices automatically.

Chazz2771
12-22-2008, 08:53 PM
A couple of weeks ago the company safety guy came up to our job and was doing the usual safety meeting. Afterward I asked why the company didn't keep an AED in all the foremen's pick-ups. I had worked for a contractor before that had a unit in every pick-up. I don't know about the utility side, but on the contractor's side of the job as many of you know, we usually get stuck way out in the middle of bum-****ed Egypt. I've worked places where the RoW was a good 40 minutes of 2-rut road from the main road, and from there another 20 minutes to the nearest hospital. Let's face it, if a guy goes down out there you might as well start building him a pine box if you don't have an AED. After telling the safety guy that, his reply was that they are afraid they will get beat-up and wrecked in the pick-ups. I work up here in the north, so the company's other problem is that they claim the cold weather destroys the service life of the batteries. That's a load of shit if you ask me. I'm a volunteer firefighter and we keep an AED on our primary pumper. Granted the lowest temperatures the unit sees is roughly 50 degrees, the units carried by police officers are stored in the trunk, and that gets icy cold in the winter. Regardless, our batteries get changed once every couple of years. And as for them taking a beating, I've asked a couple of Paramedics on my dept who work for a private EMS agency about the AED's durability and I've been told that they have dropped them out of the back of the ambulance and they only have a couple of scratches. I told the safety guy what I know about AEDs and their durability. The only thing I'm left to think is that my life and the life of my brothers isn't worth $600-$700. It should be an OSHA law that at least one AED must be on every line crew. I've been there to see people have CPR done on them, it's a little disturbing to watch in real life. Everything is quiet except for the rescuer counting, the victim just lays there lifelessly. I've watched people die when they couldn't be revived with CPR and an AED, it can be a little tough sometimes, and that's with complete strangers, so just imagine that's your buddy laying on the dirt. No, an AED won't save everybody, but it will save many.

BigClive
12-23-2008, 05:50 PM
Your "safety" guy needs sacked. Modern defibrillators are designed to be used in trucks and come with nice rugged cases for that purpose. The cold will not stop the unit from working particularly if it was kept in the cab of the truck. At worst it might take a little longer to charge its internal capacitor, but that would be about it.

Yup. Your safety guy is out of touch with the times and needs to either be retrained or replaced.

You might wish to remind him that defibrillators were first invented with funding from the electrical industry to protect linemen.

Why aren't the IBEW on this? Are there any union representatives on this forum that could give them a push?

1st Class Husker
02-07-2009, 09:54 PM
We are a smaller utility with about 10 trucks! Our safety committee got us 7 phillips Heart start aed's they come in a hard case for our trucks! All trucks that do hot work have these, we do monthly checks on them when we do our monthly trailer inspections. These are very simple and easy to use and the cost was around $1200.00

thrasher
02-19-2009, 11:05 AM
Our Cooperative starting buying AED's several years ago. Today we received a RECALL NOTICE on the Zoll AED Plus units we have. Basically the recall says the battery self check is not good enough and the batteries need to be replaced every THREE (3) years no matter what the self test says. As long as the batteries are under three years old Zoll claims no problem. The literature that came with the units said to anticapate a 5 year battery life, if the unit is not used for a rescue. Zoll has recommended replaceing the batteries any time a rescue is actually done.
Just passing the word along to everyone out there, although if you have a Zoll unit you will probably get a recall notice direct in the next few days.

BigClive
03-26-2009, 10:15 PM
Here's your random reminder and introduction for all those new to the forum.

The AED (Automatic External Defibrillator) was originally developed at the request and with funding from the electrical industry due to their concern at the number of electrocutions occurring in the early days of power distribution.

The human heart is composed of lots of separate muscles that beat in sync to create the flow of blood around the body. When an electric shock of the correct magnitude is received it can cause the muscles to go out of sync and brain damage will follow if proper blood flow is not restored as quickly as possible. (just minutes)

A modern defibrillator is a rugged, cheap (sub $1000) device that is so easy to use that a child can use it. When the unit is opened it talks the user through the procedure and when the self adhesive pads are applied across the chest of the victim the unit automatically analyses the state of the heart beat and if needed will apply a resynchronising pulse at EXACTLY the correct time to maximise the chances of bringing the muscles back into sync. If the heart is still working OK then the unit will NOT do anything other than keep monitoring the pulse.

These units are cheap, rugged, simple to use and were DESIGNED FOR LINEMEN. Many utility companies are now fitting them in their trucks and they have already saved the lives of many linemen. Sadly we still get reports on this forum of deaths where it's very clear that a defibrillator could well have prevented a death and saved a family from the loss of a father or mother.

Until the IBEW and OSHA start doing their job, it's up to you guys to ask your employers for defibrillators in your trucks. These days they really are just a part of the routine medical kit you should all carry.

If you routinely work with live power, then one of these units could save the life of you or a buddy. Not having one could leave you mourning the fact that you should have.

Think about it.

lewisgwen2
04-10-2009, 05:18 PM
Clive asked me to come up with a poster expounding on the benifits of Portable Defibrillators in the Line Trade.

He said "Keep it simple and to the point". Here's what I came up with.

He also would like any comments or suggestions to make the poster better. It sure seems, having a Portable Defibrillator on every Line Crew would be an Incredible Idea.

The ones I've seen, run about $700 apiece. Since the subject was brought up, I did some reading around, and it seems there are quite a few companys and school systems that have started putting them in offices and schools, and training their people on their use.

It would sure seem, having them on Linecrews would be a Great Idea, if Utilities and companys would be willing to purchase them and train their people in their use.......

Comments? Suggestions?

Clive also wanted me to advise that to some, This picture may be very disturbing. That's why I've posted the picture as a Link, for those who choose not to view. Don't Click the Link.

http://www.emanator.demon.co.uk/safety.jpg (http://www.emanator.demon.co.uk/safety.jpg)

I'am Victor morris mother I say good for you because 1 not being ont he job for my son it could of saved his life. And by the way the court thing is doing better then I could of hoped I like to find away to stand up for each and every one of . God bless you yours . THank you all for your help. rip son 1980-2006.

CPOPE
04-11-2009, 08:57 PM
Ya wonder if they had a Defibrillator handy.

bummer.
Published Friday, April 10, 2009
A North Carolina man working at an electrical substation on Lower Fayetteville Road collapsed and died Thursday evening, but the cause of death is still under investigation.

Willie Williams, 38, and a co-worker from Waukesha Electric Systems were adding a transformer to the SummerGrove substation near Highway 154 when Williams collapsed.

He was pronounced dead at Piedmont-Newnan Hospital, said Deputy Coroner Bart Henson. http://assets.mediaspanonline.com/prod/2288560/20090411SubstationLowerFayettev_Photo250.jpg

The substation, which serves Coweta-Fayette EMC, was being upgraded by the addition of a transformer, said Barry Dillon, spokesman for Georgia Transmission Corporation, which owns the substation.

Because the substation was being worked on, it was not electrified, Dillon said. A mobile substation was on-site to keep the power running while electricity to the main station was disconnected for the work, Dillon said.

The only electricity that could have struck Williams was from the equipment used to test the new transformer, said Dillon.

"It is possible that he got electrocuted using the test equipment, or it's possible that he had a heart attack," Dillon said. "We just don't know, and we aren't going to make a determination of that based on what we know so far."

An investigator from the Occupational Safety and Health Administration was on the scene Friday, Dillon said.

Henson said an autopsy had been completed on Williams by the GBI's medical examiner, but that some information was still pending.

Williams had no visible injuries, Henson said. Typically, a fatal electric shock will leave wounds, but he's not going to rule it out yet, he said.

He is waiting on the complete report from the medical examiner before stating a cause of death.

"This is a tragic day for the Williams family and a sad one for his colleagues at Waukesha and Georgia Transmission," said Mike Smith, CEO of Georgia Transmission Corporation. "Our hearts go out to the family. It is incidents like these that make us stop and reflect on the important work of thousands of people who build and maintain the electric system that makes our lives and livelihoods possible."

BigClive
04-12-2009, 06:30 PM
Williams had no visible injuries, Henson said. Typically, a fatal electric shock will leave wounds, but he's not going to rule it out yet, he said.


It only takes a few hundred milliamps for a fraction of a second to cause electrocution. In those circumstances there will generally be no wound.

Whether it was a "soft" electrocution or a heart attack, a defib would have been nice to have on-site.

Figurehead
07-19-2009, 03:10 PM
Our co-op just got a couple aed's for the trouble truck and heavy crews. We're grateful for them and hopefully more are on the way for all the crew's working energized lines. We also just received epi-pen training from a physician and were issued epi-pens for allergic reactions to bees. Thanks Big Clive and Swamprat for your help with the aed's.

BigClive
08-02-2009, 07:32 PM
It's good to see the availability of defibrillators becoming more widespread in the industry. Perhaps we need to come up with a new poster to help others push for them too.

The issuing of EpiPens (Automatic Adrenaline injectors to counteract severe allergic reactions) is interesting too. Probably more so in the hotter countries with more exotic stinging things.

loosescrews
08-02-2009, 10:56 PM
my system had a.e.d's in all the buckets a couple years ago.mine had one put in mine about 2 months ago. not real swift about getting things finished on that side. safety guy used to be a foreman. i'm glad i never needed one at least after hours say around 2 in the morning working trouble.

BigClive
08-06-2009, 06:55 AM
You're pretty lucky to have one at all. Many companies are either naive to the need for defibrillators on electrical crews or just turning a blind eye.

I think they day of a utility company being held liable for a death because they didn't supply their crews with defibs is near. And not before time too.

I'm not sure what lone troublemen are supposed to do. I guess any work that involves a contact risk should have two people doing it so there's at least one person to provide assistance in the event of an accident.

CPOPE
08-07-2009, 11:32 PM
I'm not sure what lone troublemen are supposed to do. I guess any work that involves a contact risk should have two people doing it so there's at least one person to provide assistance in the event of an accident.

Clive, in the States OSHA sets limatations on what a lone worker can do above 600v. No 2nd person requirement below 600v.

Paragraphs 1910.269(l)(1)(i) and (ii) establish certain types of work where at least two employees must be present. Paragraph 1910.269(l)(1)(i) provides that at least two employees must be present during:

Installation, removal, or repair of lines energized at more than 600 volts;

Installation, removal, or repair of deenergized lines if an employee is exposed to contact with other parts energized at more than 600 volts;

Installation, removal, or repair of equipment, such as transformers, capacitors, and regulators, if an employee is exposed to contact with parts energized at more than 600 volts;

Work using mechanical equipment, other than insulated aerial lifts, near parts energized at more than 600 volts; and

Other work exposing an employee to electrical hazards greater than or equal to those posed by operations that are specifically listed above.

Paragraph 1910.269(l)(1)(ii), however, provides three exemptions to the above:

Routine circuit switching, if the employer can demonstrate that conditions at the site allow this work to be performed safely;

Work performed with live-line tools if the employee is neither within reach of nor otherwise exposed to contact with energized parts; and

Emergency repairs to the extent necessary to safeguard the general public.

Thus, an employee must be accompanied by at least one other employee if the work falls into one of the categories in paragraph 1910.269(l)(1)(i) but does not fall within any of the exemptions in paragraph 1910.269(l)(1)(ii).

BigClive
08-08-2009, 10:29 AM
Yeah, but 600V is more than enough to cause electrocution. If anything the worker is more likely to be complacent in the vicinity of such a "low" voltage.

Edge
09-05-2009, 12:00 PM
this is a Bump I guess...

but I gotta say with my 'mission background I really don't have a lot of respect for low voltages... I change out light switches in my house hot... cuz I don't give a fu(k ...

yeah it's stupid...

lower voltages bring a hell of a lot more amps into the equation... which means more fault current and a greater chance for death...

why defibs aren't on EVERY fuggin truck for every power company ... is beyond me....

and don't give me a cost reason... I can by another defib... can't by another fallen brother

for what it's worth

Edge

BigClive
09-05-2009, 07:56 PM
lower voltages bring a hell of a lot more amps into the equation... which means more fault current and a greater chance for death...

why defibs aren't on EVERY fuggin truck for every power company ... is beyond me....


Nah, for a given body resistance the lower mains voltage would result in lower current flow. That said, the only thing between you and death is the outer layer of skins resistance. As soon as you get past that the inside layer is very conductive. It's just a shame that humans are so easily affected by low levels of electrical current. (Significant threat at just a twentieth of an amp.)

There are however a few things that would make a transmission lineman less susceptible to a fatal shock. Their higher skin resistance through work hardened skin, their larger body/muscle mass across the shoulders and chest and their lower fear of electricity, since for average people the fear induced by a shock is a significant factor in how they cope with it.

The real reason there are not defibs in every linework vehicle is partly technical ignorance and partly financially induced ignorance.

It's our job to educate the companies to make them provide the units.

Edge
09-05-2009, 08:05 PM
There are however a few things that would make a transmission lineman less susceptible to a fatal shock. Their higher skin resistance through work hardened skin, their larger body/muscle mass across the shoulders and chest and their lower fear of electricity, since for average people the fear induced by a shock is a significant factor in how they cope with it.



not sure Clive but are you coming on to me??? rofl

SparkRetirement
11-05-2009, 10:53 AM
A portable defibulator would be an excellent idea. If your companies were to buy a bunch of them I bet you that the difibulator company would host a free training event for the employees.

Also your company is probably paying a boat-load for insurance. Some insurance carriers may offer a discount on insurance for having these defibulaotrs available.

Spark
Retirement Consultant
jas@trustmontgroup.com

T-Man
02-05-2010, 04:56 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5huVSebZpM

BigClive
02-05-2010, 07:38 PM
A portable defibulator would be an excellent idea. If your companies were to buy a bunch of them I bet you that the difibulator company would host a free training event for the employees.


Defibrillators are so simple to use that only a minimum quantity of training is needed. Most units talk you through the procedure as soon as they are actuated.

markwho
02-07-2010, 08:22 AM
We finally got some defibrillators for some of our trucks and have more coming. We have had the formal training along with our cpr, and now we finally have the tools!

knotskeart
02-07-2010, 12:18 PM
we have em in some of our offices including safety/training but have yet to get them onto line trucks. guess trickle down effect hasn't trickled down far enough yet.

BigClive
02-08-2010, 05:33 AM
we have em in some of our offices including safety/training but have yet to get them onto line trucks. guess trickle down effect hasn't trickled down far enough yet.

It's always a bit disgusting when the management of the company get units like these in for themselves, and yet the guys who are continually working with live current and with the most need for something like this don't get them.

watzamta
02-12-2010, 09:25 PM
After reading this thread maybe you guys can help me. I am trying to get our small utility to put AEDs on our line trucks just like they have in the offices. Can you belive they want some kind of justification that they are really needed. Dumb question right? Well is there any info out there about how much these units are used? I know nobody ever really wants to use one of these units for real but if you need one and dont have one close by no one will know if it would have helped. Don't want to go there. Any info you guys have would be appreciated...

BigClive
02-13-2010, 05:00 AM
The best justification is to tell them that the AED (Automatic External Defibrillator) was originally INVENTED to save the lives of linemen.

Of all the jobs involving electricity, linework has the highest risk of current flow through the body, either in direct contact or as a gradient due to the high voltages concerned. Because the human heart is composed of a lot of individual muscles that normally beat in sync, it is very vulnerable to being knocked out of sync by the passage of external current through it. The whole function of an AED is to bring the heart back into sync again, and in many instances without this happening the victim will die, and many unfortunately do because ordinary CPR alone has a very low success rate.

Of all the jobs in society there are two that absolutely require these devices. The emergency services and power workers.

Lets hope it doesn't take a fatality to make your company realise this.

Feel free to show them what I've written here. Also make sure they are aware that at about $1000 they cost no more than many other tools and meters.

watzamta
02-13-2010, 08:44 AM
Thanks Clive!! Thats a good approach just last week I ordered a pair of hydraulic cutters at a cost of $980.00 and noone batted an eye. Had them in four days. Forget about the phasing sticks,amp stick,hyd stick saw,the list goes on and on for high dollar tools and meters on a typical line truck. Our next joint company/union saftey meeting is comming up and I have asked that this item be put on the agenda. Thanks again..

returntotheeve
02-18-2010, 09:56 PM
Try this approach...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/18/defibrillation_service/

X_Country
04-07-2010, 12:40 PM
I understan that Lincoln County utility district in oregon has aed on line crews, tree crews, trouble trucks, and trade shops. Also at main offices. They have had them for more than 10 years. You could call and ask how the bosses were forced to by aeds.

watzamta
04-24-2010, 09:21 PM
Thanks for the help guys.:) We had our joint union company saftey meeting the other day and it looks like we are going to be starting a program to get AEDs on our trucks. They also agreed to look into putting them in substations when we have guys working in them. I have to also thank the saftey director for lu 1249. He put me in contact with the right people that had the right info. Hats off to 1249 they have 130 units out on thier trucks. I thought Big Clive was bullshiting about portable AEDs being invented for lineman. It was back in 1951 utilitys went to the doctor that invented one of the early models for hospitals that a man chest had to be opened up to use spoon like paddles on the heart. they wanted one that could be used from outside the chest. Well he made it and it weighed 200 pounds. They actually installed these units in line trucks back then. Just thought you might like a little history I found while researching some of this stuff. Thanks again!!

BookII
04-24-2010, 11:50 PM
Thanks for the help guys.:) We had our joint union company saftey meeting the other day and it looks like we are going to be starting a program to get AEDs on our trucks. They also agreed to look into putting them in substations when we have guys working in them. I have to also thank the saftey director for lu 1249. He put me in contact with the right people that had the right info. Hats off to 1249 they have 130 units out on thier trucks. I thought Big Clive was bullshiting about portable AEDs being invented for lineman. It was back in 1951 utilitys went to the doctor that invented one of the early models for hospitals that a man chest had to be opened up to use spoon like paddles on the heart. they wanted one that could be used from outside the chest. Well he made it and it weighed 200 pounds. They actually installed these units in line trucks back then. Just thought you might like a little history I found while researching some of this stuff. Thanks again!!

Where could I read about the history of this device?

BigClive
04-25-2010, 10:43 AM
Here's a useful site which mentions the financial support of the electrical utility companies in the development of the first portable AED machine.

http://www.enotes.com/how-products-encyclopedia/external-defibrillator

A lot of the pioneering work in defibrillators was done by an electrical engineer called William Bennett Kouwenhoven. He also researched the effects of electrical fields on lineworkers and was responsible for establishing early safety procedures.

BigClive
04-25-2010, 10:44 AM
Here's an interesting article hat shows that lineworkers with AEDs have been instrumental in saving the lives of civilians.

http://www.electricenergyonline.com/?page=show_article&mag=15&article=106

BookII
04-25-2010, 12:52 PM
Thanks Big Clive! Much appreciated!!! What I would also like to know is how many contractors here in the United States have AED's on their trucks, or crews?

BigClive
04-25-2010, 01:25 PM
Not enough! :mad:

Can you think of any other trade that carries such a high electrocution risk? It should be a legal requirement to have AEDs on all live-work crews.

shepsta
05-01-2010, 09:50 AM
I've been pushing for AED's for our Line crews for a while now.
Were they really invented to save lives of lineman? And where do you find that info?
Our management really does'nt feel there is a need, however they do have them at there corporate headquarters.

BigClive
05-02-2010, 08:20 PM
To quote...

In 1899, Prevost and Batelli made the crucial discovery that large voltages applied across the heart could stop ventricular fibrillation in animals. Various other scientists studied further the effects of electricity on the heart during the early nineteenth century.

During the 1920s and 1930s, research in this field was supported by the power companies because electric shock induced ventricular fibrillation killed many power utility line workers. Hooker, William B. Kouwenhoven, and Orthello Langworthy produced one of the first successes of this research. In 1933, they published the results of an experiment, which demonstrated that an internally applied alternating current could be used to produce a counter shock that reversed ventricle fibrillation in dogs.

In 1947, Dr. Claude Beck reported the first successful human defibrillation. During a surgery, Beck saw his patient experiencing a ventricular fibrillation. He applied a 60 Hz alternating current and was able to stabilize the heartbeat. The patient lived and the defibrillator was born. In 1954, Kouwenhoven and William Milnor demonstrated the first closed chest defibrillation on a dog. This work involved the application of electrodes to the chest wall to deliver the necessary electric counter shock. In 1956, Paul Zoll used the ideas learned from Kouwenhoven and performed the first successful external defibrillation of a human.

old lineman
05-03-2010, 07:46 PM
To quote...

In 1899, Prevost and Batelli made the crucial discovery that large voltages applied across the heart could stop ventricular fibrillation in animals. Various other scientists studied further the effects of electricity on the heart during the early nineteenth century.

During the 1920s and 1930s, research in this field was supported by the power companies because electric shock induced ventricular fibrillation killed many power utility line workers. Hooker, William B. Kouwenhoven, and Orthello Langworthy produced one of the first successes of this research. In 1933, they published the results of an experiment, which demonstrated that an internally applied alternating current could be used to produce a counter shock that reversed ventricle fibrillation in dogs.

In 1947, Dr. Claude Beck reported the first successful human defibrillation. During a surgery, Beck saw his patient experiencing a ventricular fibrillation. He applied a 60 Hz alternating current and was able to stabilize the heartbeat. The patient lived and the defibrillator was born. In 1954, Kouwenhoven and William Milnor demonstrated the first closed chest defibrillation on a dog. This work involved the application of electrodes to the chest wall to deliver the necessary electric counter shock. In 1956, Paul Zoll used the ideas learned from Kouwenhoven and performed the first successful external defibrillation of a human.

Interesting that according to my information CPR was discovered because so many linemen were dying from electrical contacts.
CPR was the end result of extensive research at The John Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, Maryland in 1952. That's after AED's were discovered. I guess they never thought that they would be so small and idiot proof.
Perhaps it's a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing and then again I'm sure that the doctors aware of the problem thought that AED'S were to complex for the layman.
That was probably true when they first were developed, however, they sure have solved that problem now.
Another stumbling block probably was size, and likely cost. Mass production and computerized systems have solved these issues as well.
There's no more excuses.
The Old lineman

BigClive
05-04-2010, 07:59 AM
Interesting that according to my information CPR was discovered because so many linemen were dying from electrical contacts.


I think it was while the development of AEDs was being worked on with the aid of Power Company support that they inadvertently discovered that when the pads were applied to a dog it's blood pressure changed with the pressure. That was effectively how they discovered that applying pressure to a chest could be used to pump the blood through the body, and was the dawn of CPR.

CPOPE
09-26-2010, 07:10 AM
Avoiding legalities and OSHA Technical Bulletin re:AEDs
“Every workplace should have them and people trained to use them.
They are clearly life savers. “
Wade Sikora, CIH
Director Accreditation and Quality Assurance at Building Performance Institute Inc.

Join us for the latest OSHA Technical Bulletin and AED acquirer state law information! We are happy to provide this 15 minute quick webinar review to help you avoid any legalities.

Copy this link to register for September 29, 2010 11:30AM CST webinar! ONLY 15 minutes in length. Must register; limited seating. Or, email at: bmassman@think-safe.com

http://www.freebinar.com/AccountManager/RegEv.aspx?PIID=EA55DE8880

Technical Information Bulletin U.S. Department of Labor
Occupational Safety and Health Administration
Cardiac Arrest and Automated External Defibrillators (AEDs)

TIB 01-12-17
The Occupational Safety and Health Administration’s (OSHA’s) Directorate of Science, Technology and Medicine issues Technical Information Bulletins (TIBs) to provide information about occupational hazards and/or to provide information about noteworthy, innovative, or specialized procedures, practices, and research that relate to occupational safety and health. These bulletins are not standards or regulations and they create no independent legal obligations. They are advisory in nature, informational in content, and are intended to assist employers in providing a safe and healthful workplace.

Further information about this bulletin may be obtained by contacting OSHA’s Directorate of Science, Technology and Medicine at 202-693-2093.

Purpose
1. To inform employers about the use of automated external defibrillators (AEDs), a life-saving technology, in the treatment of cardiac arrest at work.
2. To provide an information resource to aid in decision-making about these devices at individual worksites.

Background
Sixty-one million Americans have cardiovascular disease, resulting in approximately 1 million deaths per year. One-third of these deaths (300,000-400,000) are due to cardiac arrest, the sudden and unexpected loss of heart function. Survival rates for out-of-hospital cardiac arrest are only 1 to 5 percent. Most often cardiac arrest is due to chaotic beating of the heart (ventricular fibrillation), which can be restored to a normal rhythm if treated early with electric shock (defibrillation). Treatment of witnessed ventricular fibrillation with immediate defibrillation can result in greater than 90 percent survival. With each minute of delay in defibrillation, nearly 10 percent fewer survive, so that at 10 minutes, survival is dismal. In June 1999, Chicago’s O’Hare and Midway Airports installed automated external defibrillators (AEDs) to respond in 1 minute to cardiac arrest. In the first 10 months, 14 cardiac arrests occurred, and 9 of the 14 victims (64 percent) survived.

Description of Hazard
In 1999 and 2000, 815 out of 6,339 (13 percent) workplace fatalities reported to OSHA were due to sudden cardiac arrest. Work factors that may aggravate or contribute to cardiovascular disease are carbon monoxide, carbon disulfide, halogenated hydrocarbons, smoking, extreme heat or cold, stress, and shift work. Electrical hazards may produce cardiac arrest (ventricular fibrillation). Exposure to noise, lead, or arsenic may produce high blood pressure, increasing the risk for heart disease.

AED Use
Use of automated external defibrillators began in the 1970s, enhancing the ability of emergency medical service personnel to treat cardiac arrest. Defibrillation is just one part of the treatment which also includes calling for emergency medical service assistance, cardiopulmonary resuscitation, and for the administration of medications and other life support measures. Early defibrillation, however, is the most critical of all the steps because it is definitive therapy for ventricular fibrillation.

AEDs cost between $3,000 and $4,500 plus the expense of maintenance and instruction. The past decade has seen advances in miniaturization and improvement in their reliability and safety. The AED is lightweight, runs on rechargeable batteries, analyzes the heart rhythm, and automatically indicates when to shock. These developments have markedly reduced response time and minimized the need for training. In a study of mock cardiac arrest, the mean time to defibrillation was 67 seconds for trained emergency service technicians while only 90 seconds for untrained sixth-grade students, indicating that even the untrained can use these devices successfully.

Many communities have trained first responders (police and firefighters) to use AEDs. Recognizing the need for faster response, the American Heart Association (AHA) has proposed public access defibrillation (PAD), a program that places AEDs close to the victim (in public places) and uses trained lay personnel for defibrillation. Specifically, the program should be designed to reduce the time to defibrillation to no more than 3-5 minutes. Using this program, a study of cardiac arrest in casinos found that defibrillation by a trained security officer within the first 3 minutes produced a 74 percent survival rate whereas defibrillation more than 3 minutes after collapse had 49 percent survival rate. Another study assessing survival for airline passengers with cardiac arrest found that 92% responded to defibrillation, while 40% survived to go home. In both instances, cardiac arrest victims could be readily observed and treatment initiated almost immediately.

Research on AEDs is ongoing. To determine if trained lay persons are as effective as trained emergency medical service personnel, the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute of the National Institutes of Health initiated a study in August 2000 that will be completed in 2003. The study will also look at whether it is realistic and cost-effective to train a large number of people to use these devices.

The Department of Health and Human Services and the General Service Administration published Guidelines for Public Access Defibrillation Programs in Federal Facilities following passage of Public Law 106-505 November 13, 2000, the Public Health Improvement Act . The Act authorized placement of AEDs in federal buildings and provided immunity from civil liability for anyone using an AED in a federal building. Several states have adopted legislation that allows a layperson to use an AED and provides legal immunity for proper use.

The American College of Occupational and Environmental Medicine, the professional association representing occupational physicians, has issued guidelines for establishing and managing a workplace AED program.

Conclusions
The sooner defibrillation is started, the more likely the victim will survive. The optimum time for defibrillation is 3 to 5 minutes after the onset of the cardiac arrest. The AED is a safe, effective, easily learned method of treating victims of cardiac arrest.

Recommendations
About 400 workplace deaths from cardiac arrest are reported to OSHA annually. Assuming an average time to defibrillation of 5 minutes would produce a 40 percent survival rate, 160 lives per year could be saved. Employers should consider use of AEDs at their worksites to reduce the time to defibrillation with the goal of improving survival.

BigClive
09-27-2010, 07:54 AM
If OSHA actually did their job properly instead of making up random fatuous regulations they'd be forcing power companies to provide a suitable AED on each truck. (And on all construction and factory sites too!)

Then again, if they ever do the price will suddenly shoot up because it's a "requirement" to have one and the greedy sales motivated "instant AED experts" will move in like vultures. It would be nice if OSHA did that and also talked to the manufacturers about capping the end price so that it avoided the whole vulture thing.

thrasher
09-27-2010, 09:01 AM
Clive:
Much of the cynicism about OSHA in the US is because it often appears the only purpose of new regulations is so manufacturers can sell more stuff. If OSHA was truly interested in safety the would kick 95% of the rule writers into the field as inspectors. If you read the accident reports on this site and others then tell me the last time you saw an accident where someone hadn't already broken an existing rule. The only ones I can think of are a man cutting out on a pole or a traffic accident.
Actually the Highway Department in Virginia is worse, every four years they come out with new signage requirements for lane closures, so we have to throw out all our existing signs and buy new ones. And the last time around they changed the requirements on our vest as well.
And before you ask all of of our crews carry an AED on the Lead Linemans truck for each crew, and they have for sveral years.

BigClive
09-27-2010, 06:33 PM
The major manufacturers supply ruggedised versions. Usually supplied in a decent protective case. The electronics are nothing special. Just run of the mill electronics you might find in the trucks radio or sat-nav gear.

A real issue is ensuring that the battery packs and perhaps pads are replaced on a routine basis whether the units get used or not. Also making sure that the guys do actually report a use in case they try to cover up an incident and then put the covers back on the used pads. It would be terrible to find that the unit had been neglected when it was really needed.