buckets, reliability, and safety concerns

[mainline]

If my company reads this they will probably crucify me, but I have to ask the forum. What is the going concensus on Altec booms, both aerial and digger derrick. I work for a northeastern utility that has recently decided to switch from tel-elect equipment to Altec equipment. We are experiencing some serious issues with new equipment. Brand new trucks have experienced failures in multiple systems. Some of these have been minor some have been fairly serious. We have also been having problems with the booms continuing to travel after the controller has been released. This is due to cold weather. It usually happens when the temperature dips below 25 degrees F. I'm interested in whether anyone else has experienced problems with Altecs in cold climates or anywhere for that matter and whether you have any solutions. I have tried the Altec solutions and they kind of work but they leave a lot to be desired. If this is the way the equipment is going to work I am not looking forward to the next 7 to 10 years of working with it.

[old lineman]

If my company reads this they will probably crucify me, but I have to ask the forum. What is the going concensus on Altec booms, both aerial and digger derrick. I work for a northeastern utility that has recently decided to switch from tel-elect equipment to Altec equipment. We are experiencing some serious issues with new equipment. Brand new trucks have experienced failures in multiple systems. Some of these have been minor some have been fairly serious. We have also been having problems with the booms continuing to travel after the controller has been released. This is due to cold weather. It usually happens when the temperature dips below 25 degrees F. I'm interested in whether anyone else has experienced problems with Altecs in cold climates or anywhere for that matter and whether you have any solutions. I have tried the Altec solutions and they kind of work but they leave a lot to be desired. If this is the way the equipment is going to work I am not looking forward to the next 7 to 10 years of working with it.

My knowledge isn't that current but this relates to how the company tried to shave costs about a decade and a half ago.
This one utility had Pitman booms and was in the process of replacing and decided to buy Altec's. Soon after the first delivery they lost a hose to the outrigger then another (each truck had the same issue), soon they were furious at Altec and complained.
The company said they were NON-CRITICAL hoses, therefore, they had only put single braid hoses under the chassis and if they wanted the stronger double braid hoses they had to spec them in.
A good manufacturer wouldn't cut these corners if they had the interest of the linemen at heart.
Just my opinion. Watch them.
The Old Lineman

[mainline]

thanks old lineman, I'm already jumpier than a long tail cat in a room full of rocking chairs. We are having a similar experience. Our managment direct managment is not happy, but upper managment doesn't see a problem. My new truck lasted four days before it broke down, and we are having trucks that don't even make it out of the inservice. Thanks again, anyone else with any current info I would appreciate hearing about it, good or bad.

[thrasher]

Our Company has been using either Altec or Versalift exclusivly for over twenty years and have not had any major problems. We have had several the last few years that did NOT match our specs exactly when delivered. They were sent back and made right before we would accept them. Whether it's Versalift or Altec is a matter of the low bidder for that truck. All our diggers are Altec, buckets are about half and half.

[mainline]

thanks thrasher. Could you let me know the climate you work in. A lot of our issues seem to be in cold weather.

[old lineman]

Here's another one for everybody.
Since about 1988 every manlift manufacturing company had to provide an engineered anchorage point for the operator/s. The ANSI and CSA standard clls for an engineered anchorage of 5,000 lbs., the standard for all of industry for fall protection.
Prior to that the common method of attachment was to use synthetic boom straps which slipped and rotted.
They were manufactured by fall protection manufacturers and the attachment DEE's were 2.5 inches in diameter.
Once the standards for aerial devices dictated the above the boom manufacturers took over.
You'll notice that one criteria is in the standard and not two.
ANSI and CSA iunintentionally dropped the important dimension of the attachment ring.
It must be at least 2.25 inches to be compatible with the self locking safety snaps on the lanyards. Incompatibility can allow rollout, therefore, they shouldn't be used.
Altec is famous for using hoisting lift eyes with an inside diameter of 13/8 inches. No good. There's incompatibility. That's another shortcut in costs.
In addition the anchorages will always see loading at 90 degrees.
ALL hoisting manufacturers making these lift eyes only permit side pulls on their lift eyes at 45 degrees.
The strength is reduced by 75% at 45 degrees rendering them too weak for fall protection standards.
The answer is to change them out on existing units and spec certified anchorages for fall protection on all new units when ordering.
ANSI and CSA blew it and to my knowledge have done nothing to correct the problem.
The Old Lineman

[mainline]

Old lineman thanks I will have to measure the inside diameter. I think I will probably be using a bucket descent device regularly. My first experience with Altec was a brand new digger derrick that dropped a 19.9 regulator 5 feet three ties before the company admitted it was not operator error. We were setting them on a platform. The winch would begin to free spool, the only way you could stop it was to rope up fast. I'm glad we didn't put a low rated guy on the digger to hang those it would have been a disaster. My biggest concern now is with the difficulty in feathering the boom, if it is warm out you can do it, if not moving hot phases or hanging equipment with our material handelers can be exciting to say the least. High pucker factor, low enjoyment. I realized very quickly that you are smart to use the hydraulic jib for fine delicate manuevers rather than trying to feather the boom into position. Thanks for the replies guys.

[BigClive]

Used an old machine in the past (can't remember the brand) that had the ability to self adjust certain booms proportionate to the position of others. Unfortunately it would sometimes do this unexpectedly while you were working, suddenly revving it's engine of it's own accord then moving a boom. That's what you call an extreme pucker moment, particularly when you really didn't want to be where it put you.

I'm not sure if it was down to sticky switches or misguided maintenance, but we didn't keep it to find out!

[graybeard]

We have problems with altec one truck I know of has more miles going back and forth to fleet main. than back and forth to the job. Each time they fix one problem something else shows up. I also know of one that the crew fought with and Altec finlly admitted it was plumbed backwards. The weather here ranges from well below zero to over a hundred.
Remember CHEAPEST BIDDER.

[mainline]

amen to lowest bidder. We have about the same temp swing as you do, and the same experience with the Altecs. On our three truck crew we have two Altecs and one remaining tel-elect. This week we had one working truck, adn it wasn't one of the new Altecs. I have a feeling it might be a matter of specing, and geography. I think the would work fine in a warmer climate.

[Ray Bruneel]

We have used Altec Buckets and diggers for almost twenty years. We have been very pleased with the product and the suport we get from Altec. We are in a pretty harsh winter climate, upper midwest, and they perform better than what we had before. The one thing my company does because of the cold weather, is we used aircraft hydraulic fluid in all the booms. This has proven to help a great deal in both winter and summer. I'm told it's expesive, but the performance is great. There nothing worse than having a boom that won't react when it's zero and the winds blowing. As for the boom creep, there is definately a problem with that unit, any similar problems that we may have had were addressed immediately by Altec. We have tool circuits on most of our trucks and find that by turning on the tool circuit after we have set up the truck, but before going to work, helps warm up the oil and improve the speed of the boom. It doesn't take long, a good time to do it is while you have your tailboard!

[mainline]

The bit about the airplane hydraulic fluid is very interesting. Do you have to change the fluid for different viscosities depending on season. I think the problem is endemic to the model of truck. Am series. When it is warm it does work well. Do all of your trucks work with an on demand throttle. Our former buckets had selectable throttle Hi or Low. It was handy for when you wanted to move really slow. Thank you for the info, if you happen to run across what exactly the fluid was could you post it. We are heavy some seriously scary issues with boom movement. I think it is aggravated by the trucks staying outside all the time. All that cold fluid and metal takes a long time to warm up.

[Electriceel]

Aviation fluid can be used year around there is only one viscosity. Yep it is expensive but works well.
Just ask your oil supplier for aviation fluid it will have a red tint to it.

I think someone from your company needs to be talking to the big boys in Altec. They are a good company and it is a very competitive market out there.

Anyone having problems with Versa-Lifts bursting hoses every 2 or 3 years, my understanding is Versa-Lift never patented their hose design and routing, left them open for all kinds of problems.

[mainline]

I have heard that the big boys are getting ready to duke it out over the problems we are having. I have a feeling part of the problem is that the head transportation guy specked cheap, cheap, cheap. Our current corporate master is notorious for that. I know the Altec reps would have rather sold us a more expensive configuration. They can only sell what they are asked for. As for versalifts I worked out of their squirt boom cable truck type booms and they seemed bulletproof. We did things to those trucks that shouldn't have been done and they took every bit of it.

[thrasher]

Sorry about not getting back faster. We are near enough to the coast that we don't have the extreme cold that many others do. The low teens is usually our worst. However it is very hot and humid during the summer.

[mainline]

Thanks for the info thrasher. Sounds a little warmer than where I am but not that much. Last week had pilot valve in pistol grip blow up after four days of use. Our in-house mechanics fixed the problem and found that in addition the whole grip assembly wasn't solidly secured. It works much better now that it is torqued down. I'm going to push for a l look into th aviation fluid. Thank you everyone for the info.

[A Laska Lineman]

The question should be at this point; is aviation hydraulic fluid non-conductive? It seemed like that was always an issue when we had a leak or broken hose. We had to make sure that the fluid we used to replace the lost fluid was non-conductive. Before changing out bucket truck hydraulic fluids it would seem like you should contact the manufacturer and find out what is compatible with the system. In this day and age with libility issues one should be very carefull.

[mainline]

I checked with our mechanics. Aviation hydraulic fluid is non-conductive and is used in several different makes of buckets. Lifalls being one, and old high rangers f series being another. It isn't even that much more expensive or the fluid though it is a four hour process to purge the bucket of the standard hydraulic fluid. I don't know why they don't just spec it if they know this is a problem, but I don't understand a lot of things these days.

[lewy]

we recieved a new altec single bucket last year & in the winter it is real slow, because we did not spec the right oil for it. there are 2 different types of oil they can use 1 is fine for down south but does not work well in the cold up in ontario. the other which is more expensive, which is supposed to be the same as the airlines use works fine in the cold.on a side not altec buckets because of there poor jibs with lack of rotation are crap.

[BigClive]

I'd check that non conductive really means high dielectric strength. Planes don;t tend to be exposed to powerline voltages much. (other than lightning through the chassis)

[lewy]

all oil used in booms in ontario for electric utilitys have to meet all of the requirements. we use our trucks on voltages up to 44 kv and we always do a current leakage test when we work hands on on the 28 or 44 kv.

[compression]

I work in the KC area, a few ice storms ago most of the altec buckets and diggers just took a crap. They(mechs) dousched the hydraulic fluid with the airplane junk and away we went again. It was very cold out.

Seems like the new altecs with a jib and swingin bucket will keep on going after you let off the controls but only when very cold and only a little amount of movement - almost like the handle is just slow to return. Makes for some interesting situations when getting tight. The T bucket style never seems to do that.

Post a note if ya find a fix.

[skylifter]

hey Y'all,
Standard AW (Anti Wear) hydraulic fluids are almost all non-conductive, as long as they are not contaminated. We use them in live-line barehand buckets up to 765kV. If you are experiencing serious problems with operation in cold weather, then there are basically 2 ways to go:
1) Do a seasonal oil changeout-this is expensive, but it provides the best protection for components and provides good operating characteristics.
2) Use an oil that is designed for various climates. Sunoco has a product designated for use in different temperatures. Conoco/Phillips has 2 products, MV22 & MV32, that they recommend for use in bucket trucks due to its temperature insensativity and its high dielectric strength.
(I do not work for Conoco, I just know about it)
The idea of using the tool circuit as a warm-up circuit is pretty good, but not all units will circulate the oil with this method. The best practice is to let the engine warm up, then engage the PTO and let it warm up, then operate each function a little bit, with small movements, because the oil is thicker than molasses and the hoses are as hard as concrete, so that's when everything wants to blow.
Besides, after each of these steps, you get to sit in the cab for 5 minutes to get a heat on.