Hot Sticks or Gloven

[glovenlove13kva]

Which do you do or perfer? The reason I ask is where I work now I glove 13.2 phase to phase. I am moving next year to another state where it looks like they hot stick.The only experience I have with hot sticks is some training I did for a linesman rodeo. I found the sticks to be a little bit of a pain and it took a lot longer to do the job. I know it's from lack of experience. I'm a little nervous about the transition. Thanks for your input.

[mainline]

Our typical votage allows us to glove, but we are installing 19.9 which we have to stick. I have been doing more and more sticking, and it is a pain. I think part of it is that our system is not built well for using sticks, and that we have to wear class 2 rubber gloves. I think if your clearances were right and you could wear leathers it wouldn't be bad. I would still rather glove than stick any day though.

[Roy56]

If you cover everything, like you should, and follow all the rules, it is a wash! If it is cold, temp wise, I prefer sticks, and if hotter than the hubs of hell, I prefer sticks. Gloves are great for deadending wire. Especiailly if you still use bolted deadends. Glove or stick, its a wash! I like both!

[Koga]

I have ever done is on transmission voltages 69 and up.I have also "bare handed" transmission voltages.Sometimes I really miss it. All our transmission is now contracted out. We have always gloved all our distribution 34.5 and below. I think once you get into it you will probably enjoy it. IMHO hot sticking is becoming one of the lost arts of the trade.

Koga

[BULLogna]

I don't get to hot stick very often now cause we glove from buckets. but when I was fresh in st. louis, i really enjoyed being on the pure hot stick crew. we didn,t have a bucket on that crew and we gloved 4 and sticked 12 in the back yards. If you have the right equipment and proper clearances sticking can be a blast. if I had to where rubber while I sticked, I would just glove. It was our general practice to not ware rubber so you would know if the stick was startin to break down. sticking wasn't nearly as fatiguing if you got a good groundman and have a whole lot of neat gadgets to play with.



__________________________________
"better to be lookin down than lookin up"

[glovenlove13kva]

I have ever done is on transmission voltages 69 and up.I have also "bare handed" transmission voltages.Sometimes I really miss it. All our transmission is now contracted out. We have always gloved all our distribution 34.5 and below. I think once you get into it you will probably enjoy it. IMHO hot sticking is becoming one of the lost arts of the trade.

Koga

Never worked on transmission our company has towerman for that.They sometimes work off the helicopters while the lines are energized.I'ld like to try that once. Talk about a rush.

[Meat]

We hotstick every day.I would'nt want to do linework any other way because its too much fun this way.You'll catch right on to hotsticking and I think you'll agree.Good luck!Meat.

[johnbellamy]

We hotstick every day.I would'nt want to do linework any other way because its too much fun this way.You'll catch right on to hotsticking and I think you'll agree.Good luck!Meat.

There are many advantages to sticking, for those who think it is easy, I don't know about that one, beside the obvious advantages of being at the end of a 6 or 8ft stick if shit goes bad, it is a art of the trade.

I will give it to glovers, To Have the dexdarity to handle connectors or due tasks with rubbers with leather protectors and sleves, work where it is damn hot or really cold, that shit ain't easy. But they also move conductors where they can use there hands and arms, use more body mechanics.

Now put the weight of that conductor at the end of a stick, lift, move and control that, use sticks as if they were your hands, well thats an art. I know glovers have to use sticks to spread conductors to hot arms, and put on macks , or these guys must be 10 ft tall.

From my understanding from post, glovers have to use bakerboards to glove from the wood, so it has to be done from buckets, so what is that doing for the art of climbing? You can chuck the bakerboards, and use sticks.

The way I see it, sticking is always an option from the wood, gloving, they are taking your options away.

[johnbellamy]

Just my "Personal Opinion",
but Stickin of the pole...is a Dyin thing in Distribution Linework. Union or Non.

Stickin ain't "Easy".
Quite the contrary...It's a BITCH!!!.... Compared to Glovin.

Give me a choice between "Sticks and Gloves"...."Duh"....I ain't a Rocket scientist,....but,...I'm gonna have to go with "Glovin it".
As the Lineman, workin the Job.

Stickin, is "finess".

Unfortunately, it takes a Shitload more time and "Finess" to do the job Stickin it, than it does...."Glovin it"..... Bucket, or off the pole. TIME is MONEY. And Nowdays...THAT's what it's all about. Sorry...but that's the way it is.

I know, I know...."Safety"....

Well, I've always gone by the rule..."I'm as SAFE, as "I" Am."
However I'm doin Linework.....

To each his own.

Time is money, I don't have the time to train you, I will put you in a bucket, because I don't have the time to train you from the wood, I don't have time to teach the arts of linework, just get it done and read your safety mannual, no not that one, the new revised one with 20 more things you have to do now that you did'nt have to last week to do the same work.

You wonder where the arts of the trade are going?

Safety is important, but I know lineman aren't responsible for trying to bullet proof are trade. Lawyers, engineers, polititans, people who have no Idea what linework is about they are the ones reponsible, not lineman.

Personally I feel that it is my ass, I will decide what I am confortable doing, but I would never put somebody else in harms ways, I feel they can decide for themselves, but if we are doing the work and agree, than life is good.

I will also say, give two good crews of lineman, 1 a gloving crew, and the other a sticking crew, a task and see who has the bragging rights.

Sticking does not take as long as some might think.

[PA BEN]

I have to agree with Johnny. I stick every job and it's fun. I've also gloved 4KV, I don't like my work in my face if the shit hits the fan. Also, I feel gloving is harder on the shoulders. I read a lot of stories about lineman making contact gloving. But as far sticking goes well I don't hear of to many accidents.

[BigClive]

Never worked on transmission our company has towerman for that.They sometimes work off the helicopters while the lines are energized.I'ld like to try that once. Talk about a rush.


Have you ever asked them if you can try the helicopter work? They might let you.

[mainline]

I agree that sticking is an art. It takes an enormous amount of thought. It can be interesting and challenging, however having done both, mainly from a bucket I can say that gloving is easier on the body. It still requires thought, skill, and training. Some of the transfers we accomplish with gloves would be unrealistic with sticks. Add to that the fact that most sticking must be done by two people whether from the pole or from a bucket, while the same task can be completed by one guy gloving from a bucket and I fail to see how sticking can be as efficient. If it was as efficient, my stingy utility wouldn't have pushed 12kv gloving back in the 1970's. That being said no matter the method if you do it safely, efficiently, and well it is a beautiful thing to watch.

[barehander]

Never worked on transmission our company has towerman for that.They sometimes work off the helicopters while the lines are energized.I'ld like to try that once. Talk about a rush.

Welcome to my world........500KV..
1250

[BigClive]

Yeah, but if you were a REAL man you'd do it off a long aluminium ladder. :D

On a more serious note, I've seen the videos of the guys crawling along the wires, and it looks like it must be hell on your knees.

I also noted how they work on the base of the insulators despite wearing a conductive suit and sticking up far enough above the wire to pose an increased arc over risk from an insulator that has a high enough dirt build up to make it borderline.

I'd still do it though. :)

[neil macgregor]

we only ever hot glove where i,m working at the moment i,ve used
sticks but i def prefer gloves i usually try and get as high up as possible
so as not to tire my arms out to quickly using sticks feck,s my arms out
and when its windy i end up losing the head all the tme:)

[johnbellamy]

Welcome to my world........500KV...
1249
1250

for what you do, a few quetions,

What do you make per hr.

how do you qualify and how intense is the training.

Have there been any fatalities while doing this.

How many lineman do this nation wide.

This is vary impressive, but you seem a little lazy just sittin there hanging out all day.

Seriously not many can do linework, but vary few can do what you do or know what you know or have to understand what you do.

[BULLogna]

Welcome to my world........500KV...
1249
1250

I think i would be more comfortable cooning the bells to do that work:D

[barehander]

for what you do, a few quetions,

What do you make per hr.

how do you qualify and how intense is the training.

Have there been any fatalities while doing this.

How many lineman do this nation wide.

This is vary impressive, but you seem a little lazy just sittin there hanging out all day.

Seriously not many can do linework, but vary few can do what you do or know what you know or have to understand what you do.

$50 per hr .......

All you have to do is be in this Transmission Dept. The training is 3 weeks and it's very anti climatic..........

I honestly do not know of any fatalities.....

Many people Barehand all over the world. I don't really know how many do it from a platform of a helicopter, maybe a 1000, but only 100 people do it hanging on a rope underneath one.
We call it "Dope On A Rope".

[johnbellamy]

The Trade is Changin John, just like Every other Trade. "Progress"... or "Fall by the wayside".

I don't "Wonder where the arts of the Trade are going". Some of em are GONE, because better ways have been proven. It's called "Progress". Not "Art". "Arts" are Cool. Some of em, in daily life and trades....just become "Less Productive", over time...

Stickin 13.8 is just, IMHO...basically "dinosaur (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=dinosaur&spell=1)" type shit to me. But...that's just me.

And Yeah, I'd like to see your best Stick Crew against my best Glove Crew....On a "Three phase Buck Pole Changeout".

That ought to be good for a couple days of fun.

One day for the Glove Crew, and the second day, for the Glove Crew, sittin around and "Marveling" at the "Art of Linework" of the Stick Crew.:D

First of all I know you can't be that ignorant with your last statment, but if you want to start something, well here we go.

I guess the line trade is all about progression in your humble opinion, well my opinion is , I would rather be a dinosaur, and be thrown to the side if I wasn't able to do my craft as a journeyman, and was givin a bucket and gloves, and go to work. Not be able to work, any situation at anytime in any terrain, maybe you can leave that work to us dinosaurs, You can't get your buckets to all poles, so then what glover? If you haven't learned from the wood first, and you cant climb or postion yourself, use sticks to do your work, then what? I guess call a dinosaur like me. Or spend all day positioning your bakerboards.

So if progression is what is about to you, I don't think you really care about the line trade or the skills that have been passed along. Anybody can run a bucket, there is nothing speacial about that.


So again, that is the attitude that is weaking my trade.

On that three phase buck. First lets see what really would happen, then lets take your glove crew bucket away, thats right bucket, not buckets. well all don't have buckets. 1 3 man crew.

[johnbellamy]

$50 per hr .......

All you have to do is be in this Transmission Dept. The training is 3 weeks and it's very anti climatic..........

I honestly do not know of any fatalities.....

Many people Barehand all over the world. I don't really know how many do it from a platform of a helicopter, maybe a 1000, but only 100 people do it hanging on a rope underneath one.
We call it "Dope On A Rope".

That is extremely a unique part of this line trade, not many second chances, so you better be batting a 1000. Be safe. and thanks for the response.

[LINEHAND]

First of all I know you can't be that ignorant with your last statment, but if you want to start something, well here we go.

I guess the line trade is all about progression in your humble opinion, well my opinion is , I would rather be a dinosaur, and be thrown to the side if I wasn't able to do my craft as a journeyman, and was givin a bucket and gloves, and go to work. Not be able to work, any situation at anytime in any terrain, maybe you can leave that work to us dinosaurs, You can't get your buckets to all poles, so then what glover? If you haven't learned from the wood first, and you cant climb or postion yourself, use sticks to do your work, then what? I guess call a dinosaur like me. Or spend all day positioning your bakerboards.

So if progression is what is about to you, I don't think you really care about the line trade or the skills that have been passed along. Anybody can run a bucket, there is nothing speacial about that.


So again, that is the attitude that is weaking my trade.

On that three phase buck. First lets see what really would happen, then lets take your glove crew bucket away, thats right bucket, not buckets. well all don't have buckets. 1 3 man crew.

He is talking about rats that dont use proper saftey equipment! No baker boards just take every short cut available to undercut and make a profit! Of course they will beat (albeit by a slim margin) a crew that is doing whats right for themselves and the trade!!!

[johnbellamy]

Sticks cost money, training cost money, labor cost money, these are the words of a company man, or a company owner.

I understand argueing about these things with managers and owners, but again what bothers me the most is having these arguments with other lineman.

I know of few companies or owners who do not make alot of money, they do this by keeping costs down, they do this by exploiting there work force, yes they would rather pay lineman less money if the could.

Do you see why organized labor is so important than? The better conditions unions have fought for are the reason they have to train, they have to buy sticks, they have to pay better, you see why I am a die hard union man, It is not because the union is perfect, It is because it is about doing what is right for lineman.

I hear what you are saying about not being able to glove off a pole, you have done it for years, and there wasn't a problem, but like you say times change.

How about climbing? Using a buck squeeze, double skids, no free climbing? WTF?

I am not a company man, nor do I have any sympathy for them who make there million's off of the working mans back. They are top heavy on the management side so if they want to save money, let them start by firing them. Not by not buying sticks, or training the lineman.

[mainline]

Bellamy I really get tired of the elitist attitude regarding sticks. They are another part of the trade. Yes, you should be able to do it, and yes the utilities should train people for it, but saying just because you spend most of your time gloving makes you less of a lineman is crap. Seeing as I do both sticking and gloving, I know that there is stuff I can do using the glove method that would either take me longer to do, or be unrealistic to do with sticks. If you utility feels that they want to use sticks to do everything thats fine, but please save me the union indignation over it. I'm union too, and I wouldn't go any other way. As union employees we should be able to do all skill sets, that includes gloving, from a bucket or from the pole if our rules allow that.

[BULLogna]

I don't know if anyone really thinks stickin is more productive or more elite. In my apprentice ship I had to learn to stick before I could glove. I think gloving is more elite. Kinda like wood walkin compared to buckets. Not many people climb anymore either so maybe climbin is the elite. but I wouldn't want to glove 19.9 off a pole either. I look at backyard non bucket stickin like a vaction from the norm. I never found it difficult and while im sure it is less productive i never noticed cause i was havin too much fun. My pole buddies say im ate up though.


______________________________________________
"Red I ain't never climbed one of them wood towers" Slim

[johnbellamy]

Bellamy I really get tired of the elitist attitude regarding sticks. They are another part of the trade. Yes, you should be able to do it, and yes the utilities should train people for it, but saying just because you spend most of your time gloving makes you less of a lineman is crap. Seeing as I do both sticking and gloving, I know that there is stuff I can do using the glove method that would either take me longer to do, or be unrealistic to do with sticks. If you utility feels that they want to use sticks to do everything thats fine, but please save me the union indignation over it. I'm union too, and I wouldn't go any other way. As union employees we should be able to do all skill sets, that includes gloving, from a bucket or from the pole if our rules allow that.

I didn't say gloving made you less of a lineman, the point I am making is that you don't glove off poles any more on certain voltages. The point I am making is that you are not held from doing any sticking procedures from the wood on any voltages are you mainline?

The other point I was making, is you could put a person in a bucket, give them gloves and sleves, and they do work with there hands rather than to be trained with sticks from off the pole. The bucket gives all lineman an advantage, but take the bucket away from him, now he can still learn gloving from off the pole, but only on lower voltages or bakerboards must be used if that is what I am Understanding.

Like I said before, you don't like what I have to say, OK, I will give my opinion. I know not many like what I have to say, so ignore my posts if you feel the need.

When you say there are tasks you cannot accomplish with out gloving, I disagree, there is always a way for a lineman. How do you think non gloving lineman accomplish these tasks? Do you think we are slow? Or do you think we have the knowledge, the skills, the tools, and the training to accomplish such tasks, are you giving me an elitist attitude about glovers?

[BULLogna]

bellamy is right, the only can't in Linework is if you can't cut you can't stay. I think any thing done with gloves could be done with sticks but it might take more effort. And I think the old timmers proved it.

[Edge]

PHREWWWWW!!!! this one's got the fire started!!! my 20 cents....

Did transmission most of my line life sticking and 'handing in the mountains and swamps and I've never seen a bucket in either place ... that chopper stuff that barehander does.... "top of the food chain" man you OWN!!!

k 'fore I get to ranting'

stickin's not a lost art any more its just specialized... it's become that because of the .... well Swamprat says it best..."bullet proofing of line work" men would rather spend 8 hours winching trucks in and out of a hole then just sticking (or diving board)it in in 30 mins - 2hours buy climbing it.....

makes me sick you want to really get to the point stick or glove it aint the LINEMAN it's the kids that they are hiring today that should be flipping burgers....

give them a 4u{4squzee and some class 3 rubber they are SAFE so they CAN so line work...

and they wonder

(and I read a post back about a stick crew vs a glove crew? hehe that would be fun to watch and those guys that just use a stick for more than just closing in cut outs ? well they might just hurt your pride...)
Edge

It aint cuttin out .... it's high speed dirt!

[BigClive]

Now there's a rodeo challenge... Sticking versus gloving. Two teams battle it out against the clock.

[BigClive]

Many people Barehand all over the world. I don't really know how many do it from a platform of a helicopter, maybe a 1000, but only 100 people do it hanging on a rope underneath one.
We call it "Dope On A Rope".

On one hand the rope might be safer than the platform in the sense that a gust of wind might jam the lineman against the wire, but on the other hand, when you're on the end of a rope the helicopter doesn't have such a good visual reference to the wire to remain as steady. Is there much give on the rope to allow you to grab hold of the cable to try and maintain a stable working position?

I'd also be coy about the chopper pilot getting "creative" and inadvertently dragging me across an insulator. I guess that maybe working on insulators from a rope is probably not allowed anyway.

It's the sort of job I'd like to try, but it would probably get very repetitive after a while.

[Meat]

Now there's a rodeo challenge... Sticking versus gloving. Two teams battle it out against the clock.The glovers might win by a nose but I guarantee the women would go home with us hotstickers :)

[johnbellamy]

Naw......

They'd be "Long gone to bed" with us "Glovers", and sleepin..... By the time you stickers got done!!!!:p :p

sometimes there things in life when slower is better. so I sure would "stick" rather than glove.

[PA BEN]

Naw......

They'd be "Long gone to bed" with us "Glovers", and sleepin..... By the time you stickers got done!!!!:p :p
A good sticking crew could and can keep up with a gloving crew any day.:eek:

[Orgnizdlbr]

A good sticking crew could and can keep up with a gloving crew any day.:eek:


Done both, and I dont think so...............

[Patriot]

Quote:Anybody can run a bucket, there is nothing speacial about that.
quote:


You still have to know what to do when you get up there.

[johnbellamy]

Alway we do is stick, Pa Ben I am with you, We do not rubber glove anything over 5kv ( and there is not alot of that out there), we do not ware rubber gloves when we stick, We use hard cover and blankets to cover, 90% of our overhead work is worked energized, we don't kill it and work it dead, people don't like there power being out, I don't ware rubber gloves when I am above the neutral or when I climb a pole, I never have worn sleves.

If people that say they have done both so they know, maybe for them, but if you used sticks everyday at work, and not gloves, or have to ware gloves when you hot stick, (Puttin rubbers on when you stick, That ain't natural, and it can't feel right.;) ) I would amagine you would get pretty good at it, and become more efficent at it.

Like edge stated, Its not the lineman, being a lineman is an Individual thing, either you are good at it, or your not, Sticker, glover, Union, Non Union, constuction, or utiliity. Talent is talent, experiance only comes from the time you work with something.

[johnbellamy]

Quote:Anybody can run a bucket, there is nothing speacial about that.
quote:


You still have to know what to do when you get up there.

But If you learn you trade from the wood first, the positioning, the angles, the way you can use your tools, than the bucket work becomes easier.

The framing of a pole is designed for being able to do this work from the pole first, I see alot of things built these days that are not climber freindly.

Example: 3 phase primary dip, They put the cutout arrestor combo on the same side as the riser and tap the high side on the same side, easy if you had a bucket.

I would put them on the oppisite side, so if I were to have to open the cut-outs and remove the high side, I would be on the side where I could access it from the pole. Just see when you are out working, and you can tell if it was built out of a bucket or from the pole.

[mainline]

Bellamy I finally agree with you. Talent is talent, good linemen still exist no matter the tools typically used. You have to be able to see the solution to the problem. Some will see it quickly some will never see it. This doesn't necessarily have to with age or time in trade. There are plenty of us younger guys who can hang with any of the older guys. Most of us would love to have the chance to work with older guys, but most of them are clocking out for good. So we are left to carry the torch. Some of us will be able to do the work, a lot are here for the check. That sucks, but it has always been that way. My dad has been in the trade for over thirty years now, and there were good and bad lineman when he started. There always have been there always will be. It is nice though that we can all talk about on this forum. To the guy on the rope under the copter, you must have balls so big you have a hardtime walking. Rock on.

[johnbellamy]

You are right plenty of young guys no what they are doing, good lineman, when I see them I say If they are this good now, wait til they get the years under their belt, What journeyman they will be, what teachers they will become.

I have also seen guys with 20 years and wonder how they ever turned out in the first place, they still don't get it.

[glovenlove13kva]

Have you ever asked them if you can try the helicopter work? They might let you.

No I haven't, but I'm sure for legal reasons I wouldn't be allowed.

Also I would like to say I didn't mean to start a war on this topic. I was just curious because I was taught to glove 13kv from pole and bucket and never used a stick except to open cutouts or a shot gun stick for right angle elbows in pad mounts. When we did for pratice for the rodeo it just seemed like a pain but like i said it was from lack of exprience. I'm moving to middle Tennessee next year and it looks like they hot stick and just wondering what I'm getting into.

[BigClive]

Well you never know 'til you ask....

You didn't actually start a war. It's always like this. :D

[mainline]

Maybe some of you guys who are primarily hot stick lineman can help me out. What are you required to keep for clearances from an uncovered 35KV phase. I was always told that 2'6" was the minimum clearance as that was what OSHA required. Now I have safety people telling me I have to maintain 4'. I think this is bulls^&t, but I can't seem to get any traction. One other question about working in leather gloves, what do you do about secondaries? Do you kill them out or do you leather glove them? Sorry for the ignorant questions, but they way you guys work is as alien to me as the way I work is to you.

[lewy]

Maybe some of you guys who are primarily hot stick lineman can help me out. What are you required to keep for clearances from an uncovered 35KV phase. I was always told that 2'6" was the minimum clearance as that was what OSHA required. Now I have safety people telling me I have to maintain 4'. I think this is bulls^&t, but I can't seem to get any traction. One other question about working in leather gloves, what do you do about secondaries? Do you kill them out or do you leather glove them? Sorry for the ignorant questions, but they way you guys work is as alien to me as the way I work is to you.
When we do live line tool work we do not have to wear rubber glove as long as we maintain our safe limits of approach & for us under 35 kv is 3' & 35 to 50 kv is 4' we do not work anything over 44kv.
as far as energized secondary we have to wear class 2

[Meat]

15.1 to 36kv is 2 -7 phase to ground and 2-10 inches phase to phase for us.Over 50 volts requires Class 0 rubber gloves.(WAC 296-45).Meat.

[PA BEN]

Maybe some of you guys who are primarily hot stick lineman can help me out. What are you required to keep for clearances from an uncovered 35KV phase. I was always told that 2'6" was the minimum clearance as that was what OSHA required. Now I have safety people telling me I have to maintain 4'. I think this is bulls^&t, but I can't seem to get any traction. One other question about working in leather gloves, what do you do about secondaries? Do you kill them out or do you leather glove them? Sorry for the ignorant questions, but they way you guys work is as alien to me as the way I work is to you.
Phase to ground is 2ft 7", Phase to Phase is 2ft 10" Washington State.

[johnbellamy]

I ware rubber gloves when:

Setting a hot pole
putting rubber balnkets on to cover things that are difficult
when somebody asks me too for insidental contact if hard cover or blankets are not applied,
when moving untested or ungrounded wire on the ground do to storm damage,
when fixing an open neutral,
when repulling a damaged down guy or installing a new one if a it is a dip pole or it has a can on it,
using a hot hoist if they make me.
Some others.

I think rubbers are vary akward most of the time, when I have to use them I don't like too, I use sticks and use hard cover applied with sticks If I have to break clearances.

When people talk about training, the only school I went to that I went to worth a shit was Camp Rilea, an Ibew training course for apes. 10 days 1year and second, 5 days third. All other schools they have sent me to I was not impressed. Sticking is an everyday task, thats how you become familiar with it, not some half assed school.

I can't put my mind around the hole ground to ground glove thing, or wearing sleves, The north west is unique in that we don't just glove it, or kill it to work it. We do kill things sometimes but not often.

If this helps people know where I am coming from or some of the questions I ask, This is all I know.

[NJlineman55]

Do you think its possible for a lineman that has never hotsticked to go to a company that strickly hotsticks and become competent with them?

[johnbellamy]

Do you think its possible for a lineman that has never hotsticked to go to a company that strickly hotsticks and become competent with them?

Any lineman worth a shit will help show a non sticker how to, Linework is linework, Sticking isn't that difficult, or time consuming as some might think, If guys every **** with people because they have not had a chance, or givin some time to adjust to something new to them, they ain't much of anything in MHO.

But understand we are trying to protect this territory of sticking, so new guys can't have the attitude, that I would rather just glove it, It dosen't fly to well in these parts.

The ones I have worked with like sticking, and new skills just make a better lineman, because now you can work anywhere, I don't just mean sticking, I mean all new skills from different places you work.

[mainline]

I think that if you do line work you can do either it will just take some time to adjust. I mainly glove because the majority of our system is 12kv, but we are doing more 35kv work which requires us to stick. Its just different, I know John loves it, but I do it out of necessity. I work on a projects crew 10hrs a day 4 or more days a week and I find gloving for that duration easier on my body. To each there own though. I am sure you guys who only stick are very fast, and efficient at it I wish I wasn't so far away because I would like to watch you guys work to see how our methods differ. Thanks for the info.

[BULLogna]

About leather gloves and secondary. Just because you stick doesn't mean you don't have gloves. A covered secondary is considered out of reach. and even when I stick, there are times when You put your gloves on depending on how "with in reach" you are getting. And if osha standards are minimum so if your rules change minimum clearance then it becomes an osha rule for you only. The thing I have noticed in my two state company as they have gotten away from sticking and focused more on bucket gloving,is less guys climb. So the hold out areas that have put gloving off in general are way better climbers than bucket gloving areas. Now at ameren there is very little sticking anymore and guys are forgetting how to do it. and it seems like our electric contacts have gone up. But for me I never found sticking hard or gloving more dangerous. there both good skills and they sure as hell are better than doing underground.

[mainline]

The reason I asked about leather gloves is because when I worked at Nova Scotia Power after Hurricane Juan the NP guys were allowed to leather glove secondaries. We do mainly bucket work, but 99% can climb well enough to do our job. You have to be able to because you never no when you will end up on a camp line in a storm situation. As for underground I am with you on that, it blows.

[johnbellamy]

About leather gloves and secondary. Just because you stick doesn't mean you don't have gloves. A covered secondary is considered out of reach. and even when I stick, there are times when You put your gloves on depending on how "with in reach" you are getting. And if osha standards are minimum so if your rules change minimum clearance then it becomes an osha rule for you only. The thing I have noticed in my two state company as they have gotten away from sticking and focused more on bucket gloving,is less guys climb. So the hold out areas that have put gloving off in general are way better climbers than bucket gloving areas. Now at ameren there is very little sticking anymore and guys are forgetting how to do it. and it seems like our electric contacts have gone up. But for me I never found sticking hard or gloving more dangerous. there both good skills and they sure as hell are better than doing underground.

You make excellant points, Thicker gloves, sleves, a rubber suit?, bigger mininum approach distances, buck squeeze, double skid, what next?

More contacts, If any body on this site knows of a death or an electrical contact while lineman were sticking please let me know.

Guys climbing skills not what they used to be, you see the points I have been trying to make about giving guys buckets, gloves and just going to work.

If all of these contacts are happening with all these new safety reg that are trying to prevent them, well you see what I am saying about the training of new lineman.

Seasoned glovers, trained glovers can't be happy with new or more safety regs to do the same work they have always done with less contacts.

Learning your trade from the wood first is the only way to go, apes have no business running buckets at all IMHO, but I know time is money.

I don't just like sticking, I love it. There are so many cross country lines in the north west, You cannot get buckets to them, you have to be able to work from the wood plain and simple, some utilites have 10 lineman and one or two buckets, so you see that working here is different, but I know there are cross country lines everywhere, so I just thought everybody worked like I do, I guess I was wrong.

Maybe OSHA should look at the contacts made by lineman when sticking, If they would, maybe they would see that it is safer, maybe they would get that you can't bulletproof linework, most contacts are caused by short cuts, and we all do that on occasion, maybe better training of lineman is the solution. Sticking is always an option on any voltage.

[BULLogna]

I don't think that sticking is safer. safety is all about work habits attitudes & skill levels no matter what you are doing. Ameren has had guys killed while sticking and gloving. We haven't had a guy killed while purely sticking since the late ninties and he crept to far up on the stick with no gloves on. latly our are conacts are not so much gloving incidents but the lack of gloves. most recently on a pole while waiting for a shotgun. It probably just seems like were havin more contacts cause our company is growing(ameren= UE,IP,CIPS, Cilco) and were doin more glovin than 10 years ago. I do feel that bucket gloving on distribution is more productive. But private property sticking is better than boarding. But strait gloving off the pole could go either way. depends on your safety philosophy. Most of us sold out sticking for a nice $ raise in illinois and missouri.

[ivanho]

One addvantage to sticking that I like
is that distance is your friend
At a co-op that I was brought up in we had
7200/14.4
We gloved and sticked just depended on the foreman you was with,
One did'nt like taking the bucket out, and I am thankful to this day for that
I work for a company now that does not do any sticking at all, even in easments, we use the backyard machine with bucket attachment..



_______________________________________

Watch your top knot!!!

[johnbellamy]

Maby OSHA should "LOOK" at the Trade of Linework. That's not gonna happen John.

OSHA is the GOVT. They "generally" try to put out "Minimum guidelines" to "protect" against, just complete Stupidity. That's all they really do...

Insurance companys, do the rest.

You're a lucky dude, if you can still do Stick work with Leather Gloves. Mark your days man...they're numbered....:(

Yes, to be able to stick , train, work in the NW, yes extremely lucky.

I don't beleive gloving out of a bucket is not safe, to the contrary, I beleive guys who are trained properly, and know what they are doing, it is much safer than trying to manipulate the weight of condutors then at the end of a stick. I also beleive sticking is harder on the body from out of a bucket, than gloving.

I am not a numbers guy, and I know there are alot more glovers than stickers, but the contact accidents from sticking, I just haven't heard of any in the NW where you stick everday.

I agree with you that my days are numbered by what I am hearing latley, so I think you can tell on by my posts, I am not big on the changing of linework, they are taking the fun, the uniqueness away, being a lineman today dosen't mean what it used to, this bothers me because this is my watch, shit shouldn't change on my watch, thats what bothers me, nobody seems to care much anymore, why not? Things are givin away way to easy by lineman these days, why?

We are here to as some have said " carry the torch", well how we doin? Not worth a shit IMHO. I can't blame anybody else but myself and others my age or younger, are things gettin better, or worse?

So I will hold on as long as I can, and feel priviledge I have had the oppertunities I have had as a journeyman.

[BULLogna]

Completely TRUE.

But So What.

That's just Your, or My "Opinion". You WILL work by the Rules your Company goes by or you won't have a job.

AND...You WILL work by the Rules of your company, whenever they Change them.

What "You and I" think...really don't mean a "Ratsass".

Pardon the "Pun". :D

Where im from, the company doesnt make the rules. A team of linemen on a commitee with the company do and all have equal votes. once there in the book we follow um.

[BULLogna]

Investor owned Ameren handles most of missouri and most of illinois south of chicago. We are IBEW and we are made up of about 10 different locals holding 15 different contracts. I think all safety programs are best with worker input. Don't you think that youd better accept a rule from a senior respected lineman rather than some vice president? rules do have to comply with osha. And we are lookin for linemen if anybody is interested.

[BULLogna]

The missouri outfit has a commitee with three company and three union. the safety book is a negotiated item and no rule can be changed without majority vote unless osha or the state changes the rule. for example they started glovin in the late 80s. it was too big an item for three guys to decide so they wrote up a proposal and the linemen voted on it. now it can't be changed with out negotiating. unless osha changes something. then both sides are bound to comply.

[mainline]

That must be the best idea ever. We are having alot of discussions about safety rules that make no sense right now. We don't have a process like yours. We can propose changes but it has to go through 900 comittees where the ideas die the death of a thousand paper cuts. It's to bad too because if you have safety rules that don't make any sense, and the guys working under them have no input people will eventually ignore them in order to get things done. I think a lot of it comes down to your safety people we are starting to get some who have either been out of linework for years or come from outside the industry. Really how can someone who has never done the work no what is and what isn't a safe work practice. It's really kind of laughable. Bullogna how is Ameren to work for? My mother has friends from MS and they love it, and really it can be any snowier or colder than Maine.

[BULLogna]

That must be the best idea ever. We are having alot of discussions about safety rules that make no sense right now. We don't have a process like yours. We can propose changes but it has to go through 900 comittees where the ideas die the death of a thousand paper cuts. It's to bad too because if you have safety rules that don't make any sense, and the guys working under them have no input people will eventually ignore them in order to get things done. I think a lot of it comes down to your safety people we are starting to get some who have either been out of linework for years or come from outside the industry. Really how can someone who has never done the work no what is and what isn't a safe work practice. It's really kind of laughable. Bullogna how is Ameren to work for? My mother has friends from MS and they love it, and really it can be any snowier or colder than Maine.

For the most part ameren treats good hands with respect. Our benefits are middle of the pack but we still have a pension and a 401k with 6-8% match. Ameren, especially Illinois is made up of 7 different divisions that each have there own personalities. Like in one division you are not allowed to get a soda while fueling up. Other divisions don't care about pidilly stuff. Missouri is the safest with there comitees. And parts of Illinois have no safety comitee at all. But we are negotiating. IBEW wages are 32-33/hr. Most of ameren illinois is evolving from having been 4 different companies. So there is a lot of different work styles andgood and bad management. But Missouri has thier act together. You can hire in as a trouble shooter, distribution guy or just a transmission high liner. I think the average guy gets about $16000-$20000 in ot after you have been here a while. I would recomend missouri and metro east illinois but stay away from rural illinois. Our construction force is looking for good travelers too.

[mccbry]

Gloven may or may not be faster,depends on who is doing the job. But sticks are safer. Lineman in the Northwest fought for the right to use sticks years ago because it is safer.