100% fall arrestor? bucksquezze

[BULLogna]

I read a thread where freshjive asked if anybody uses the bucksquezze fall arrestor system. My theory on 100% fall arrest and outlawed free climbing is: first we have let too many apes top out that could not climb, didn't wanna climb and thought climbing was old school. Since they don't have the necesarry skills to do the job, they try to change the skills needed to suit them so they can be better at linework. It used to be that these folks washed out and went on to other jobs, like substation or gas work, or maybe they just stayed a groundman forever. Now adays since they are related to a company managers or a union manager they go on to be management or union reps or osha reps where they sit in meetings and talk about how dangerous it is to free climb. where they conjure up rules like no free climbing. I don't think very many people fall off poles and get terribly injured. so it can't be an insurance thing. An old timmer told me long ago that you won't fall off a pole, you'll have enough adrenaline that youll be able to hang from one finger if you gotta but you won't fall. It used to be that when you went to the beach with your family you could spot another wood walker by the hair less spot on the inside of his calf. and of course the cut off jeans and west coast boots. Are we all just turnin into to bucket trash? Are the really going to mandate 100% fall arrest?

[topgroove]

Here at National grid they have outlawed free climbing . we must use the bucksqueeze unless there is an ubstruction every two feet than you can use your regular safety. either way you have to be belted in all the time. unless its an emergancy and I have to do a pole top rescue.

[lewy]

When did it ever become that you were a good lineman if you could free climb
As long as you can get up the pole comfortably & you can do the work when you get there
How many lineman are really racing up the pole
1 person falling is 1 too many

[NJlineman55]

The ...Bullet Proofing of Linework.

"Outlawed" Free Climbing?....:(

Somebody better "create" "LINE BOTS"....

Cause,
"Linemen"....are on the "Endangered species list".:(


Swaprat: same guy who talks about progress in the industry. I think making climbing safer is PROGRESS!! We all know it doesnt matter how you get there its the work you perform once you get there. I see no problems with a safer new method of climbing.

[freshjive]

I have used it since i started here, so i really don't know how it was like before..I mean we had to free climb a few poles at school with obstacles ans some poles without..It was mainly to get a feel for both methods...To be honest, I like my bucksqueeze...I feel verrrry safe (almost overkill), but for a guy like the kid I started with its a good tool..He really couldn't climb all that well..When he freeclimbed he fell every time...Then they put him in the squeeze and the climbing started to improve..I think with the freeclimb, he was so worried about falling off of the pole, he lost all focus...When the bucksqueeze was attatched, the kid's climbing took a turn for the better 100%...I think the squeeze made him feel very safe, because he didn't need to hold on with his hands around the pole constantly worrying about taking a dive....He was put more at ease with the squeeze....I'm a poet and I guess i just didn't know it....

[Edge]

yeah climbing "safer" is a great idea but how about this....

"Cause,
"Linemen"....are on the "Endangered species list"."

anyone seen how many Lineman... particularly JOURNEYMEN are gonna be in the trade in the next 5 to 10 years? hell look at how many are in the trade NOW!!!

Yeah alot of this is 100% fall arrest is insurance push but another BIG part of it is... well no one wants to do this job when they can make the same or better money sitting behind a desk counting beans in a controlled environment provided by the power WE supply... hell or high water!
So the company's are just filling jobs with body's young men that are only able to do the job because they are strapped into the wood "safely" (instead of being trained how to actually CLIMB!!!); courageous young men indeed but not LINEMAN... it takes a different type of metal to make a lineman and thats just the way it is...

/rant off

see if I'm wrong but I wager safety or no what ever they (whomever that may be) bring down the pike to make our job "safer" in the next 5-10 years a lineman a true LINEMAN will be able to name his price...

Edge

dead or dying... If I got my hooks I'll be climbin'

[freshjive]

well said....Freeclimbing seems to be a thing of the past and it seems like they ain't gonna change it ..Its a shame..It should be up to the guy putting his life on the line weather or not he wants to use the squeeze..I'll tell you one thing, those take more time to get off during the hurt man rescue...They say to cut one side, but it's tough when you are fumbling around up there, and trying to figure out which strap goes where. If an oldtimer or anyone for that matter wasn't familiar with this belt, he/she is lible to just cut away the vital DEE RING strap and watch that electrocuted person now suffer a broken back...

I like the bucksquz.I think its a great safety tool. That being said, we should continue to practice freeclimbing regularly..Even if its teathered up in a training yard, because you never know when you may need it...We can do it in emergencies as long as we sign off on it and observe EVERY hazard and possible scenario...Better to be somewhat proficient at it, than to have the guy who's power is out giving you 10 fingers to get up the pole. :D

[Edge]

Or THE FINGER... cuz you gotta call someone to bring a bucket cuz you don't have the training and skills to climb up there and change out a CLF...

Edge

until white men CAN jump... make mine Bashlin!!!

[BULLogna]

Im not saying that linemen that use these systems are not as good. You do what your rules say. My beef is that i just get fed up with the never ending attemps at making the job less than what it is. I gotta boss right now who is in to not climbing period. He thinks that it should be a safety violation for climbing when a bucket is available. EX, ( I feel I can clip in faster out of hooks than out of a bucket.) So if that is the case why ever climb at all there is equipment that can get to nearly every job. if you feel that free climbing is truly unsafe, They even make little backyard buckets now. The have buckets on log skidders. Buckets on cats. Mud boards to drive in on so you don't make ruts. ladders and pole steps. maybe even mobile elevators or extendable and rectractable poles for the guy that just can't bring himself to leave the ground. so why climb at all. the safest way to walk wood is to be good at it & stay good at it. linework is not unsafe. Being just "proficient" instead of highly skilled is unsafe. some peoples fingers fit a pencil better than a spud wrench. those people should stick with the pencil. As for me, I like the way edge put. BASHLIN, cause I can't jump either.

[mainline]

The choice should be the linemans. I don't always free climb, but I can. I don't really see the benfits on a bare transmission pole you get in rythmn you can climb nice and smooth. On a distribution pole its a pain in the ass who wants to belt around every obstacle, and the thought of having to use a buck squeeze for pole top rescue is absurd. You are trying to get the guy down alive, not just retrieve his body or it would be called corpse retrieval. Just look at the fifteen minute retrieval in that canadian video. Why even bother if you are going to take that long, just butt cut the pole. I don't think anyone is saying that the guys on here who are required to wear a fall stop are less of lineman but it is nice to have more options for work rather than less. As for progress, new rules don't make us safer and new isn't always better.

[PA BEN]

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times.

THE FEAR OF FALLING:eek:

[Fiberglass Cowboy]

I Dread The Day I Have To Put One Of Those On. My Crew Has Been Changing Out Right Of Way (backyard/backlot) Poles For The Last 3 Months. The Better Part Of The Winter. We Have An Altec Backyard Machine That Is A Minature Digger-derrick With A Single Man Bucket Attached To The Side That We Use. But We Still Climb. We Take Turns Using The Bucket And Climbing. Sometimes My Foreman Uses The Bucket And I Climb,or Vise Versa. Or Sometimes Our Apprentice Uses The Bucket And I Climb Or Vise Versa. Sometimes I Stay On The Ground While My 4man And The Ape Go Up. But We Always Double Team Them. 1 Man Or 2 Men On The Pole,1 In The Little Bucket To Do The Rubber Gloving Of The Primary,if We Are Not Sticking. We Free Climb. For Most Of What We Climb,hitch-hiking With A Bucksqueeze Would Not Be Feasable,at All. We Would Have To Take It Of Every Other Step To Go Over Cable T.v. And Telephone And Secondaries,etc... Just Not Practicle.

No-one Ever Said This Job Was Easy.
Climb Hard Or Go Home.
And Remember What Joe Dirt Said," Life's A Garden,dig It!"

[freshjive]

Since i never really got the opportunity to actually free climb in the field....I only know what i was made to use...The bucksqueeze.....I saw guys drop like flies out of climbing school...They were in good shape, and when they made it to the top, there was pulled muscles, sore arms, and shortness of breath, because of the effort they exerted just getting to the top of the pole(don't forget, getting up is only 1/3 of the battle) ..I like the bucksqueeze, it does protect you in case of a cutout, but for it to be properly used, there has to be an easier way to get that thing up and down a pole (I try to try something new everytime I have it on)...We are told to keep the paddle and the carabiner at 9:00 and 3:00 or 8:00 and 4:00 (tight against the pole no air between the brown strap and pole) and ascending or descending a chewed up pole....No fun......Although once it starts to get broken in, it's a bit easier to adjust and tinker with..

[scammy]

a good lineman can do it the hard way ,like pull up a crossarm with a hand line ,I was taught this way ,,but ,,,when you can get out of a climb ,,it is a good thing,why take another risk?..and always use plenty of rubber ,why not ,,am I a sissy ?,,,,na ,,just wanna go home every night,,,,,oh yea I climb at least 4 times a week,,scammy

[Nate]

I have a hard time with this only because we lost an apprentice a couple years back. It was at a training yard and we wernt using the pole mounted fall arrest system. but now any training is only done with this.
Now all our new apes cant climb for shit because the are not hangin off the top of the pole let alone use two scare straps. Now are saftey dept has come up with several ways to be tied off at all times for training, there thinking is if you get used to it then it wont be a problem. we have a certification program for us older lineman that we can free climb anytime we want, because it's easier to get to where you need to belt off that doing all that switching back and forth. The young guys need to learn to climb first hire guys that went to trade school, and if there teaching this shit dont hire a kid thats book smart nows it all and has all the cool shit to look good but forgets to take off his gaff gards. We need new hands that are going to continue what we do not change everything that has always been the life of this trade.

[wtdoor67]

I remember I first climbed when I started with the tel. co. Used to climb those little old class 9 poles all day long. Pretty easy and sometimes when you got into position you couldn't even put your feet next to one another since the tops of those poles were so small.

When I started electrical linework I already knew how to climb well. Climbing was just something that was took for granted. If you went somewhere they didn't ask if you could climb. You were putting in for a lineman's job , right? That meant you could climb. All they wanted to know was what you knew about the work. What kind of voltages you had worked on. Transmission work or distribution work. Hot work or did you know your transformer hookups.

I have witnessed these last few years men who in reality can't climb. They present themselves as journeymen and can't climb a wooden pole! They only perhaps know underground and expect to qualify as a Journeyman lineman. Amazing!

The utility co's foster this kind of mentality. I have seen people in training positions who would be hard pressed to really be a Journeyman lineman. The ability to climb a wooden pole has always been the core skill of a lineman. I've heard men make the comment. "Give me a guy who can climb and I'll teach him how to hook up transformers and do hot work."

I expect one day the airlines will hire pilots and get applicants who will say. "I don't know how to takeoff or land a plane but I can fly it okay from point A to point B if you will get it to cruising altitude for me."

The ordinary agility and coordination required to climb a wood pole without some sort of mechanical aid should remain the core skill of an electrical lineman.

I think the utmost effort should be made to train people this basic skill and it should be accepted that some will be injured.

To me if they are going to be so adamant about this then all lines should be required to be looped and no more hot work should be performed by anyone. It is the same mentality.

Another solution. Require all poles to be stepped. It's sickening isn't it?

I had been gone from the Tel. co. quite a few years. Still had some friends who worked there. When the govt. first started pushing EEO stuff I was talking to an acquaintance. He was laughing. Said they had a climbing class and had a girl in it. To pass the class all they required was for a person to climb a pole, belt off and take that piece of rope the Tel. co. called a handline, and pull up a lasher (about 25 lbs.) to your belt level and let it back down. This girl had great difficulty, mostly compounded by the fact that she had not mastered the skill of climbing for one thing. The instructor was told to figure out some way to pass her at all costs. Finally it was decided that the only thing to do was to step the pole, have her climb to the top, pull up the lasher, let it down and they would call it good. The pole was stepped. When the lass climbed up, in some way she lost her balance and fell a ways down the pole. This on a stepped pole! In doing this she broke both arms just above the wrists on the steps. I never did find out if she passed.

[rcdallas]

Well I've only been climbing for 7 months, 3 months of it in the real world, all I can say is keep doing it. Working on a service wagon I don't know what a bucket is, we climb everything, from the skinny pole that one wonders how it's still standing to the nice new poles.

I asked my superintendent if they are going to make us use the bucksqueeze and he just looks like what?

Point being for me anyhow to just keep climbing, it was tough for me at first thinking about my feet but the more you do it the easier it gets.

I think one should be able to choose whether or not they want to belt/free/or buck it up the pole.

[lewy]

I agree 100% a lineman has to be able to climb I remember going to first year lineschool & guys taking there hooks out of the box, they had only been in a bucket
I also rember the first time I free climbed a 60' pole all the journeyman comenting how I had finally free climbed. Then in my second year they changed the rules & we had 100% fall restraint everyone was moaning & bitching about how wrong it was
But after more than 15 years with it & we have the small backyard poles with bell & cable & clotheslines & we manage to get the work done in the same amount of time.
You still see some people when they get to the work area who will not reach out or work with 1 hand this is a bigger issue than fall restraint
I think that eventually you will see 100% fall restraint everywhere & that alone does not make you any less of a lineman & no it should not be accepted that someone gets injured when the injury can be prevented.
With all of this complaing about fall restraint & ground to ground it makes me wonder if the old timers had the same complaints when they made everyone where hard hats? Bet they did

[BULLogna]

I'm real sorry some guys & gals " get sore arms, shortness of breath from the effort exerted getting to the top". :rolleyes: I had these guys in my climbing school as well. They read meters or work else where now. Fact: not everyone can do linework. When we make it so a monkey can do the job then what will the pay be? climbing is just one of the many things, but it is a vital foundation. I don't need a bucksquezze. If a pole is questionable I might hitch hike, like during an ice storm. but for the most part, I learned my skill and i practice my skill therefore climbing is not dangerous to me. doin my share and your share cause you can't climb is not fair but ill do it cause being in the air (free climbed) is the funnest part of this job. If you don't like clumbin then why did you choose linework?

[wtdoor67]

I agree 100% a lineman has to be able to climb I remember going to first year lineschool & guys taking there hooks out of the box, they had only been in a bucket
I also rember the first time I free climbed a 60' pole all the journeyman comenting how I had finally free climbed. Then in my second year they changed the rules & we had 100% fall restraint everyone was moaning & bitching about how wrong it was
But after more than 15 years with it & we have the small backyard poles with bell & cable & clotheslines & we manage to get the work done in the same amount of time.
You still see some people when they get to the work area who will not reach out or work with 1 hand this is a bigger issue than fall restraint
I think that eventually you will see 100% fall restraint everywhere & that alone does not make you any less of a lineman & no it should not be accepted that someone gets injured when the injury can be prevented.
With all of this complaing about fall restraint & ground to ground it makes me wonder if the old timers had the same complaints when they made everyone where hard hats? Bet they did

Lewy, this is mostly for you. What do you think of this? Step all poles. Loop all lines. Nothing can be worked hot. Don't you think this would solve most of these safety hazards?

It is clear to me Lewy that your class of apprentices have been well brain washed by your instructors and given all the answers as to why poles should not be climbed in the contemporary way.

How about using those climbers that loop around the pole? Have you ever used an extension ladder for distribution work? I recall when I worked for the Tel. co. that the splicers used a 28' extension ladder. You could reach most distribution poles with a 40' extension ladder. Just think Lewy. No more hooks and then no more falls, no more gaff wounds, no more rubber gloves and no more electrical contacts. That way you could exchange places with the people in the office. Just think what a diverse work force you would have then. Not have a specific classification, just call anybody who works for the power co. and they would be able to handle any job. That way all bases could be covered. Everyone besides management would have one generic classification. Journeyperson power person. That has a nice ring to it doesn't it? I will be working with Human Resources on this strategy very soon. Awaiting many calls. Maybe a consulting job perhaps.

Only one caveat Lewy. No one handed Journeyperson power persons will qualify.

[lewy]

I will try & answer some of your questions
No we do not step poles.
Most of our system is looped not just for safety reasons, shorter outages
We have crews working live everyday.
We have guys climbing everyday with fall restraint & if the lines are energized ground to ground, our provoncial rules.
The only time I have used a ladder is to get on a roof or to get past a thick hedge in a back yard.
I know that you are not for 100% fall restraint & never will be & I know that if the rule was not brought in for us I would still have free climbed, but it is & it does not bother me.
I will still not accept that it is okay for someone to get injured when it can be prevented.
You have been around a while & if you tell me you have never seen someone up a pole who will not reach out very far, or only gives 1 hand to the company, you are very fortunate.

[wtdoor67]

It appears you have bought into their propaganda very well. You have management written all over you.

I have seen several "one handed linemen." They are the objects of derision.

If there was a plethora of falling accidents in the industry I could see the reason for concern. I have seen no stats that would indicate this. I see nothing wrong with doing all de-energized work. I believe electrical contacts are the most injurious of the accidents I hear and read about.

[lewy]

It appears you have bought into their propaganda very well. You have management written all over you.

I have seen several "one handed linemen." They are the objects of derision.

If there was a plethora of falling accidents in the industry I could see the reason for concern. I have seen no stats that would indicate this. I see nothing wrong with doing all de-energized work. I believe electrical contacts are the most injurious of the accidents I hear and read about.
I am not management, show me the propaganda
I know first hand you get as much done with fall restraint
I agree there is nothing wrong with de-energized work
We both know that it is not always practical ,but always possible
Am I to guess because of "I believe electrical contacts are the most injurious of the accidents I hear and read about" that you are in favour of ground to ground rubber gloves?

[Lnhnd13]

I think that a Journeyman should have a choice whether to use it or not. If he comes to a pole that he feels he needs a bucksqueeze then fine let him use it. Then at the end of the day he can turn his hooks in and go be an engineer and tell everyone how great a lineman he used to be.

[wtdoor67]

I am not management, show me the propaganda
I know first hand you get as much done with fall restraint
I agree there is nothing wrong with de-energized work
We both know that it is not always practical ,but always possible
Am I to guess because of "I believe electrical contacts are the most injurious of the accidents I hear and read about" that you are in favour of ground to ground rubber gloves?

Lewy,it's just that your rhetoric seems to reflect those views that are put forth by management. I know you are bound to obide by the safety rules of your province.

After you have made Journeyman and have worked a few places let's see if your feelings are still the same.

De-energized work will never be the norm because in the long run it will cost the co. more money than just investing in a few fall restraint systems. We know what will prevail in that argument.

I have worked under ground to ground rubber glove rules. It is just a CYA tactic by some co's that don't care about the comfort of the working hands.

You state you can get as much done with fall restraint as without. Unless you have years of experience in both methods with multiple crews I tend to doubt your judgement.

Just like FR clothing. It's an overkill sort of thing. Clothing of natural fibers has long been know to provide adequate protection. Well that's another subject I guess.

[lewy]

Lewy,it's just that your rhetoric seems to reflect those views that are put forth by management. I know you are bound to obide by the safety rules of your province.

After you have made Journeyman and have worked a few places let's see if your feelings are still the same.

De-energized work will never be the norm because in the long run it will cost the co. more money than just investing in a few fall restraint systems. We know what will prevail in that argument.

I have worked under ground to ground rubber glove rules. It is just a CYA tactic by some co's that don't care about the comfort of the working hands.

You state you can get as much done with fall restraint as without. Unless you have years of experience in both methods with multiple crews I tend to doubt your judgement.

Just like FR clothing. It's an overkill sort of thing. Clothing of natural fibers has long been know to provide adequate protection. Well that's another subject I guess.I have been for over 15 years
No intention of moving, but know there is more than 1 way to skin a cat just from reading the posts, also know my views are among the minority just by where I come from, but thats fine.
Our average pole is 55' nothing smaller than a 40', it really does not take that long to get up the pole either way, & once you are there you are belted in & it all becomes the same.
As far as FR clothing well it is provided for us & it feels like normal cotton so I am not going to complain.

[mainline]

Why give Lewy crap. He works by his rules. I wouldn't want to but so what. I work ground to ground gloves and I'm sure everyone will soon, because of stupid people who do stupid shit in power space. All rules are created because someone did something so blatantly ignorant that it resulted in an injury. Climbing is a skill and an important one, on our crew we do not climb frequently because of the construction of our system. All of should be able to climb well enough to do our job, but true to utilities everywhere managment allows people to progress even if they can't climb. It is sad, but true. So if he can climb well and work aloft who cares if he wears a bucksqueeze. He can give us pointers after some numbnut falls 100' because they were pushed along when they shouldn't have been and we all have to wear one.

[johnbellamy]

Another lineman saying, this is true, but it also depends how skilled, qualified, and productive that cats skinner is. I have said the lights always get back on, and they do, but at what cost?

[wtdoor67]

I think the main thing with me about this subject is the hipocrisy of these companies and their management. I have been to many safety meetings. Starting the new safety year the district boss or whatever small wheel is present always states. "This year our accident goal is o% or some small percentage." Then a new rule is perhaps trotted out. It's rarely innovative. Maybe "No left turns into alleys." "Ground to ground rubber gloves." "Lights on at all time while driving." "PPE must be worn at all times." "Steel toes boots." Hell I think I've heard them all. "This is the way we will ground from now on."

Periodically someone always says. "Hell, if we're gonna be so safe, why don't we always have 2 people in a bucket when we work primary?" "Why don't we just kill every thing out?" This is usually met with a blank stare and "You know we can't do that."

The worst of the hipocrisy is when in a bad storm many of the rules are chucked out the window. I've seen it many times. Cynical? You bet.

[Fiberglass Cowboy]

But I Still Think It Is A Ploy By Management And Supervision Because They Don't Trust Their Linemen Or They Think Their Linehands Are Incompetant. They Might As Well Say,"you're Going To Use This Bucksqueeze Because We Don't Trust You To Know When To Use Your Standard Safety Strap." I Don't Think Most Linemen (at Least Ones I Know) Need A Safety On New Poles. I Know I Don't. It's A Judgement Call. Maybe A Few Of The Older Guys Will Use It, And Maybe Some Of The Rounder Guys Will Use It. Hell I Used My Safety The Other Night When I Had To Run Up And Change A Bad Fused-cutout On A Leaning Transformer Pole. There Was Only 2 Of Us,and All I Had Was My Hardhat Light And The Foreman Held The Little Flashlight So I Could Halfway See Something. But That Was My Desicion,and I Didn't Feel Like Falling And Busting My Happy A$$ That Night. So I Guess Right Now I'm Grateful I Don't Have To Use The "sqeeze" Yet.

As For The Ground To Ground Rubber Glove Rule.... Another Way Of Management And Supervision Saying They Don't Trust You. I Can't Make Sense Out Of That. What About Touch And Step Potential? Your Feet Are At Ground Potential While Your Hands Are Insulated. What About Damaging Your Rubber Gloves By Climbing With Them All The Time? I Don't Want Any Holes Poked Or Splinters Stuck In My Rubber Gloves. We've Got Staples And Nails,splinters And Wood Chips, Ends Of Wire Ties And All Sorts Of Hardware. All Kinds Of Stuff To Rip Your Gloves On. Then When You Actually Need To Use Them??? We Give Them A Visual Check And Even Trap Air Then Roll Them,but We Don't Have The Proper Testing Devices At My Shop,and I Can't See A Small/pin Hole. Maybe Some Of You Can. Right Now The Head Of Our Safety Department Is A Former Lineman,and A Pretty Smart One. He And The Rest Of The Safety Department Trust Us To Recognize Minimum Approach Distance And Cover The Conductor And All Exposed Parts If Necessary. We Can Do That With A Shotgun (a.k.a. Grab-all) And Hard Plastic Covering (when We're On The Pole). Then Procede Into Approach Distance If Necessary,at That Time Having Rubber Gloves On. This Makes Sense To Me....

Then Again I Never Went To College,so Management And Supervision Probably Think I'm Just Another Dumb Lineman..... HA HA!!!