FR Pants....

[Special ED]

The pants wouldnt be too bad I'm sure they are very similar to denim jeans. And if they are required by OSHA then we dont have to pay for them..

My whole issue with the FR clothing is that in order for it to maintain it flame retardence it has to be maintained by a uniform company that does that sort of thing.. Everywhere I have worked they give you the shirts usually 5 a year and your responsible for them. Well the first time you take em home and the little lady uses the good ole downey fabric sofner on them they are no longer flame resistant.

[loodvig]

We had the FR pants also. We also had to get special boots with a hard toe and some kind of electrical rateing. I forget what it was. Most of the people just ordered the one piece FR jumpsuit. Get to the job and just pull it on over your street clothes. But ED is right once you wash them at home most of the FR is gone! We got extra money to wash them correctly but no one ever did.

[PA BEN]

The pants wouldn't be too bad I'm sure they are very similar to denim jeans. And if they are required by OSHA then we dont have to pay for them..

My whole issue with the FR clothing is that in order for it to maintain it flame retardence it has to be maintained by a uniform company that does that sort of thing.. Everywhere I have worked they give you the shirts usually 5 a year and your responsible for them. Well the first time you take em home and the little lady uses the good ole downey fabric sofner on them they are no longer flame resistant.
The mandatory rule for FR clothing goes into affect Jan.2009. As far as pants go, haven't heard that one yet. Also Carhartt claims to stay FR after several regular washings.

[BigClive]

I wonder how the old melton trousers would fare in maintaining their falme resilience in washing. When I worked at the steelworks I had pairs of the thick wool melton trousers that are used to protects against splashes of molten metal.

Not exactly hot climate wear though.

Those in the UK who don't recognise the material melton will probably recognise it if I describe it as the material donkey jackets were made of.

[mainline]

Tyndale lists how many washings your FR is good for. It ranges from twenty five to fifty. So after a year your stuff is pretty much worthless. I am willing to bet my 4 year old sweatshirt would go up like a match, but it has the tag so I am all set as far as the company is concerned. As for the pants, they are about the same as wearing regular pants. They make all different weights, they just cost at least twice as much as regular Carhartts.

[BULLogna]

If you are having a flash then you are doing linework wrong. We used to teach our cubs not to have flashes. To focus and not make mistakes. now we just prepare for it. Boards of Directors sit on each others company board. Is there a CEO from a FR clothing company on your Utility's board of directors? The answer might surprise you. We don't have pants yet.I wouldn't mind if they would let me ware shorts. experiment: after you wash & dry a load of FRs take the lent out of the lent trap and see if it burns. It makes really good kindling.

[lewy]

If you are having a flash then you are doing linework wrong. We used to teach our cubs not to have flashes. To focus and not make mistakes. now we just prepare for it. Boards of Directors sit on each others company board. Is there a CEO from a FR clothing company on your Utility's board of directors? The answer might surprise you. We don't have pants yet.I wouldn't mind if they would let me ware shorts. experiment: after you wash & dry a load of FRs take the lent out of the lent trap and see if it burns. It makes really good kindling.Any time we switch & it is not a gang operated switch with a handle we have to use a stick as well a flash glasses rubbergloves & a hard hat and we are also supplied fr clothing top & bottom. Part of the reason for all of this is to stay out of any possible flash area, sometime shit happens. If shit never happend would you close it by hand?

[BULLogna]

Any time we switch & it is not a gang operated switch with a handle we have to use a stick as well a flash glasses rubbergloves & a hard hat and we are also supplied fr clothing top & bottom. Part of the reason for all of this is to stay out of any possible flash area, sometime shit happens. If shit never happend would you close it by hand?
What Voltage are you talkin. We only have gang operation on Vs above 15kv, I have opened more 4kv porcelon enclosed than I can count. I inch them open with a 3' stick if the roast i close um till i get the cycle. If I can't get the cycle like on a cap bank, I grab the tail of the fuse with a stick and pull. 12 is open so I will be far enough away so my underwear wont burn off. or use a load break or oil. my big Voltages are gain operated i am at least 20-30' away if dispatch errors in thier order. I have witnessed a 138 flash that melted the windshield of the bucket I was in when a static broke. I did not have FR on and my cotton carried me through.. I do like free clothes though so if there buying I'm wearin. but don't tell me natural denim aint safe.:p But if you are wearin synthetic, you are asking for pain.

[lewy]

We have 4kv to 27.6kv on our distribution
I just felt you had a poor choice of words when you said "If you are having a flash then you are doing linework wrong"
Some times shit happens that is why we are trained & use the equipment I had metioned

[Linewrk06]

We, have to wear all FR, pants, shirts, etc... We use to have a uniform company that took care of all the clothes shirts, bibs, pants, etc... But then the company figured out it was cheaper to give the employee a set amount of money each year so we could pick out the clothes that we wanted or needed. They went with Tyndale, word on the street is that they were low bid so thats what we got. Well I like Bulwark and Workrite better then the Tyndale stuff cause it just lasts longer and holds up to the work... I had a Tyndale shirt that after about 2 months already had holes in it and was wearing out. So if that is happening that fast, is the damn thing still FR??? Its nice being able to buy what you want but when all you have to pick from is Tyndale, Tyndale, Tyndale you aint got much of a choice, cause after a year you might as well put it on ebay and get something else. So when ever yalls companies make you wear the pants, go out and get you some Workrite Nomex pants they will last for ever.... That FRMC stuff sucks..........

[old lineman]

Hey BULL,
You are one fast Dude. Opening a switch between cycles.
At 60HZ, that's 60 times a second, whew.
No wonder linemen get paid so much.
We were always taught to open the sucker as fast as we could to break the anticitpated arc.
Breaking the fuse link within the barrel of a cutout is effective because of the lack of oxygen and the material the barrel is made of that sluffs off under high heat.
Teasing the switch open is a no, no. Let er rip.
The Old Lineman

[Special ED]

Hey BULL,
You are one fast Dude. Opening a switch between cycles.
At 60HZ, that's 60 times a second, whew.


I saw that comment bull made and thought what the hell?!?! If you can open switches between cycles I wanna see it for me self. Maybe it came across wrong.

Also Bull people are being trained that flashes and fires are a regular part of work. We are taught ways to avoid them and how to be prepared for them like with wearing FR clothing and arc eyeshields. And alot of Apes arent even taught that much.

Ive had apes with me in the bucket miss while throwin in a switch and when it falls back open and they are looking for a door in the bottom of the bucket they could be putting out the arc by simply passing the stick through it. Apes dont realize yo can do stuff like that instead of letting the world burn down around you.

You best bet when I'm switchin anytime day or night I got on my arc shields over my eyes and my FR clothing on that way im protected from flash all over and I can still see to make split second decisions.

Train them the right way and prepare them for the worst.

[BULLogna]

Hey BULL,
You are one fast Dude. Opening a switch between cycles.
At 60HZ, that's 60 times a second, whew.
No wonder linemen get paid so much.
We were always taught to open the sucker as fast as we could to break the anticitpated arc.
Breaking the fuse link within the barrel of a cutout is effective because of the lack of oxygen and the material the barrel is made of that sluffs off under high heat.
Teasing the switch open is a no, no. Let er rip.
The Old Lineman
I don't know if it is indeed between cycles but thats the only way i know to explain it. inching a 4kv porcelin enclosed switch open is a old standard practice around here. you inch the door open if it belows you close it and try again. unless the load is tremendous you will probably get it. some times it takes to or there trys it took me 7 trys one time. Is it chance between cycles or what? If you "open that sucker as fast as you can" and your load won't break its gonna get awful hot before and if you can get it closed again. Opening an old porcelin enclosed switch should be a gentle procedure. if you jerk it chances are that it will break cause its old and possibly cracked and then you may have problems if you wanna close it back in a hurry. if she belows you wont be able to pass a stick through to snuff the arc like on a open cut out cause it will be inside a porcelin box until she breaks out and goes phase to phase. Chances are pretty good that there is a nother phase pretty close cause its 4kv spec. The old switches were designed to be opened with a 3foot switch stick and slowly leverd open. not pulled. alot of guys try opening them with extendos many times they break. and there is no way to close it back if the load is great.. The safest way would probably be to mac um and change the cut out to one the is load break compatible.

[chkdsk]

Does anyone know whats comin down the pike for sure, we don't have to wear FR crap at this time, and I thought it was a dead issue, now I heard a rumor that we have to wear it by 2009? and to what extent, in an electrical contact accident a lot of the heat is on the skin so do they make us wear FR undies also? I have to wonder also do we have to wear when we are not in the primary zone?

[old lineman]

There's that word 'CRAP' again.
My wife keeps giving me sh** for using it , she says it makes you sound so simple minded.
I told her that is supposed to be a polite word for shit.
Anyway you cut it it is totally inappropriate for perosnal protective equipment that has saved numerous people from grievious injuries when an unexpected/unplanned event happened where super heated metal or gases let loose.
If you can't see the merit in wearing FR clothing I blame your management for not doing a good educational job.
Then again I realize that some folks just have a closed mind and no matter how much information is provided they still keep their head in the sand and refuse to change their minds.
For examples of this human trait look at how many people refuse to wear fall protection when working aloft, wear seat belts when driving a vehicle, wear a floatation device when boating, wear FR clothing when working with electricity when an electrical arc can cause a temperature rise to over 3,000 degrees before you can close your eyes.
The Old Lineman

[borgerslineman]

There's that word 'CRAP' again.
My wife keeps giving me sh** for using it , she says it makes you sound so simple minded.
I told her that is supposed to be a polite word for shit.
Anyway you cut it it is totally inappropriate for perosnal protective equipment that has saved numerous people from grievious injuries when an unexpected/unplanned event happened where super heated metal or gases let loose.
If you can't see the merit in wearing FR clothing I blame your management for not doing a good educational job.
Then again I realize that some folks just have a closed mind and no matter how much information is provided they still keep their head in the sand and refuse to change their minds.
For examples of this human trait look at how many people refuse to wear fall protection when working aloft, wear seat belts when driving a vehicle, wear a floatation device when boating, wear FR clothing when working with electricity when an electrical arc can cause a temperature rise to over 3,000 degrees before you can close your eyes.
The Old Lineman

I WEAR FR SHIRTS AND BY GODS GRACE I HAVE NOT BEEN EXPOSED TO A VERY LARGE ARC BUT I HAVE HAD THINGS GO BAD A TIME OR TWO. THE THING THAT BOTHERS ME ABOUT THE FR SHIRT IS THAT WHEN I WELD IN THEM THEY BURN UP. THE DENIUM SHIRTS THAT I USED TO WEAR HELD UP QUITE WELL TO THE SPARKS AND DID NOT BURN MY ARMS LIKE THE FR'S DO. IF THE FR'S BURN AND MELT BY JUST THE SPARKS OF WELDING. WHAT IS IT GOING TOO DO IF I AM CAUGHT IN A LARGE ARC?

[Trbl639]

I WEAR FR SHIRTS AND BY GODS GRACE I HAVE NOT BEEN EXPOSED TO A VERY LARGE ARC BUT I HAVE HAD THINGS GO BAD A TIME OR TWO. THE THING THAT BOTHERS ME ABOUT THE FR SHIRT IS THAT WHEN I WELD IN THEM THEY BURN UP. THE DENIUM SHIRTS THAT I USED TO WEAR HELD UP QUITE WELL TO THE SPARKS AND DID NOT BURN MY ARMS LIKE THE FR'S DO. IF THE FR'S BURN AND MELT BY JUST THE SPARKS OF WELDING. WHAT IS IT GOING TOO DO IF I AM CAUGHT IN A LARGE ARC?

Wondered the same thing.............my FR shirts will melt from sparks when welding...some are Bulwark, others Tyndale........

We order new FR shirts every June...usually get em by Sept! We get 5 FR shirts...company is using Tyndale now, but sometimes wen we ger em, there may be a Bulwark or Carhartt in there...........5 shirts or 3 FR and 5 cotton t-shirts, I think Sweatshirt/hoodies every other year, bibs/coveralls/jackets every 3 or 5 years........all got the company logo, gotta (well supposed to )wear the company logo shirt when working.........we can work up to 480V with cotton...over that, or in the air, in the Zone (4ft for us..MAD + reach), gotta have FR....or when switching, or energizing oil filled eqpt, gotta have FR..........

I usually get the Nomex...it's good for life!!!!

Talked to a hand at the WCLR rodeo last weekend from APS in Phoenix, he was wearing the FR pants from Bulwark (I think), looked like military BDU's with the leg pockets, anyway he said they were pretty comfortable..so if they are in that hot desert, they might do ok in the south.....either way, if we gotta go to before I retire, I will, and then I'll have some if I do some Trampin:)........but they better hurry, gonna have 38 years in December and gonna give it to em and hunt and fish and do what I wan to do:):D:D

[JRT]

An attempt to try to clarify this issue:

OSHA has not made any changes to the federal regs, yet. The 2007 NESC has a new rule that goes in to effect January 1, 2009 that will require employers performing work on utility systems and telecommunication systems to perform an arc hazard analysis. If there is a logical risk of an arc occurring that will result in an arc energy exposure of greater than 2 cal/cm2, then something has to be done to reduce the arc energy, reduce or eliminate the arc, or wear FR clothing. There is an exception for voltages below 1000 volts. In lieu of performing the arc hazard analysis, clothing with a minimum rating of 4 calories can be worn to eliminate the hazard if ignition. A note in the rule explains that arc energy levels on secondary circuits is high, so proper work practices and engineering controls should be utilized to reduce the magnitude of the hazard.

Things are a changing. OSHA has proposed new language for both the construction and the maintenance regulations. Secondary voltages are not excluded in the proposal. FR pants will probably be required insome situations - will be determined by the hazard analysis. The NESC committee is also looking at modifying the 2007 rule to include secondary voltages in the arc hazard analysis scheme. It is a difficult task. Arc energy levels on secondary systems, especially 277/480 systems, can be extremely high. The difficult task is writing the rules that will allow lineman to work without introducing new hazards (e.g. heat stress related hazards) by requiring significant protection from the FR clothing, and still allow the circuits to remain energized to work on.

Nothing is in writing yet. The NESC committee is committed to writing a rule that will protect the worker, and will continue to allow current work practices employed on energized secondary systems. There are specific installations that will be problematic, such as meter installations, enclosed equipment (padmounted devices) and racking breakers in and out. Substations are also a difficult animal.


The new OSHA regs are still in the works. The best guess is that a new rule requiring FR for the protection from an arc will happen. I think OSHA actually realizes the difficulty in writing a rule like this, but in their opinion, other actions besides FR clothing can be employed. Some of the work practices may change, and a minimum level of arc protection (4, 5, or 6 calories) might be set. When will we see the new OSHA regs? My best guess is possibly in 2009 (maybe later). There is an issue causing a delay regarding the calculation of minimum approach distances. Seems the documented method and associated distances have been wrong (math error) for some time. I believe the corrected MADs will have little effect, except on the line-to-line distances at voltages 345 kV and higher (could be a couple of feet).

The NESC is a voluntary standard that is used by most states to set the basis for the state's regs - that all depends on if the state does adopt the NESC, and what parts of it are adopted. On the other hand, with the NESC rule out there, if a worker is injured in an accident caused by an electric arc, you will probably see federal and state OSHA's use the NESC by recommending compliance with that Code as an accepted industry standard. Probably no way out if it.

[IN THE SHADOWS]

Good to have your input in here Jim.....Helps to have someone close to the regulatory decision makers around to keep the rumor mill halfway in check with actual facts. We all would appreciate you keeping us informed if you can.

[Nate]

Here at my company they have an open account. When we need shirts or pants we just ask for what ever we want. I personaly dont ware the pants because I dont like the way they fit. I like the bibs. if im working in hot vaults ill ware a jump suit and on the pole Ill ware the lite bibs with my Levis.
We get insulated non insulated bibs as well. Here in colorado you never now what the weather is going to be like so we have bins full of clothes all year round.When we first got the clothes they told us we didnt have to have a seconday underneath but now the think we need to have cotton underneath thats going to suck when its 90 or above. I feel sorry for all you guys in those hot states. Somthing funny one of my buddies was camping and drinkin thought hed throw his shirt into the fire to see what it would do, It whent up in a flash cuz he spilled everclear on it LOL.

[Trbl639]

Is that you Bro?? You keeping smiley, Dave, Patty and the rest of the guys outta trouble???:):) It's Trouble from the WCLR!!!! Tell all the guys I said they ain't right!!!!!!!!!

[joeholl]

We have already begun to wear the FR Pants. The regulation has not gone in effect, but they went ahead and got the pants. And no, you will not be able to wash them or it will destroy the FR capabilities. We have a uniform service. The pants don't look too bad, but they are HOT!!!! Ours are made by Dickies. Just so you know, they will tell you that you should order pants one size shorter than you normally wear. Don't fall for this load!! Get them the same length. If not they will come up to the top of your boot when you sit down. DORKY! You will need FR Coats and Coveralls also.

[WCLR]

I think it was Dickies that were giving out FR pants for free at the International last year and I got ahold of a pair. I cant tell much difference in the fit between them and regular jeans IMHO. It cant hurt to wear IMO, but of course if the fire is big enough nothing is going to help. I pray nobody has to test these out....

[bean]

I have heard that 2010 everyone will be required to wear FR pants. They are not that bad though. Shaw makes us wear them and they are more like dark blue dress pants.. The more you wash them the softer they get. But after a few washes you can throw the FR part out the window. But over all our guys like them..

[WCLR]

Good for you man!!! Congratulations!!:cool:


Dont let him bullshit ya, he'll die where he is right now before he retires :D;)