The History Of Liberals and Conservatives!

[Buzz Lightyear]

The division of the human family into its two distinct branches occurred some 10,000 years ago, a few hundred years after the flood... Humans coexisted as members of small bands of nomadic hunter/gatherers.

In the pivotal event of societal evolution, beer was invented. This epochal innovation was both the foundation of modern civilization and the occasion of the great bifurcation of humanity into its two distinct subgroups: Liberals and Conservatives.

Once beer was discovered, it required grain, and that was the beginning of agriculture. Neither the glass bottle or aluminum can had yet been invented, so it was necessary to stick pretty close to the brewery. That's how villages were formed.

Some men spent their days killing animals to barbecue at night while they were drinking beer. This was the beginning of the conservative movement.

Other men who were weaker and less skilled at hunting, learned how to live off conservatives by showing up for the BBQs every night and doing women's work like sewing, fetching and hair dressing. This was the beginning of the liberal movement. Later, some of the liberals actually became women.

Liberal achievements include the domestication of cats, invention of group therapy and democratic voting to see how to divide the beer and meat that the conservatives provided. Women were not interested in democracy at that time because most of them were still women back then, and the conservatives fed them.

Conservatives are symbolized by the largest, most powerful land animal on earth. Liberals are symbolized by the jackass.

Modern Liberals like imported beer (they add lime), but most prefer white wine or foreign water in a bottle. They eat raw fish but like their beef well done. Sushi, tofu, and french food are on liberal menus. Their women have more testosterone than the men. Liberals like deviant sex and want others to like it too. Their first successful city governments were Sodom and Gomorrah.

Most social workers, personal injury attorneys, journalists, and group therapists are Liberals. Liberals invented the designated hitter rule in baseball because it wasn't "fair" to make the pitcher also bat.

Conservatives drink domestic beer. They eat red meat, and still provide for their women. Conservatives are big-game hunters,Linemen, rodeo cowboys, lumber-jacks, construction workers, medical doctors, police officers, corporate executives, soldiers, athletes, and generally anyone who works productively outside government. Conservatives who own companies hire other conservatives who want to work for a living.

Liberals do not produce anything. They like to "govern" the producers and decide what is to be done with the production. Liberals believe Europeans are more enlightened than Americans. That is why most of the liberals just stayed in Europe when conservatives were coming to America.

Conservatives have principles, believe in a Creator, and the rule of law. They practice charity and give to the poor, normally through their churches. When in doubt on an issue, they check both the Bible and the Constitution, which they use as a constant reference in a changing world. They believe in the concept of truth.

Liberals do not have principles, except for their dedication to stealing production of conservatives and undermining principled references such as the Bible and Constitution. They are never in doubt on an issue because they always do whatever is best for them without regard to others. They have no standard of reference. Liberals do not give to charity. They cultivate the poor like a cat cultivates a field of mice. They use the poor as voters and give them a portion of stolen tax money which they vote away from conservatives. Satan is a liberal (as the "father of all lies" he invented liberalism) And someday soon he will call his flock home.

Conservatives believe in self defense, both at home and abroad. They own guns and use them to discourage liberals and other common criminals. They provide guns to the armed forces to discourage foreign liberals and other foreign criminals.

Liberals do not believe in conservative self defense. They disarm conservatives, and then attack them with impunity by liberal armies with guns. King George, Hitler and Stalin were all liberals who abandoned the rule of Law, had no principles except their own self indulgence, and attempted to tax and govern conservatives. Liberals believe in BIG government. They think the United Nations is the ultimate answer.

Conservatives believe in the rule of law and when sitting on juries, convict common criminals and acquit fellow conservatives who have been charged by liberals. When serving in the armed forces, they shoot liberals from other countries who want to govern our country. Conservatives know the difference between a common-sense law and a bone-headed statute passed by some liberal from Massachusetts. When sitting on juries, they do not enforce bone-headed statutes, and don't explain their reasons.

Liberals only believe in whatever laws are appealing to them, such as the privilege of making a living by taxing conservatives. When sitting on juries, liberals convict producers and acquit liberals and other common criminals. Modern Judges are all liberals as they do not produce anything except chaos, and are paid with confiscated tax money. They consider it against the law to reference any source of law such as the Bible or Constitution. Like other liberals, they just make it up as they go and do what is best for them. Judge Roy Bean is their model.

The American cowboy, of course, is your basic, full-bore Conservative. A hundred years ago, an Englishman visiting Texas was attempting to find the owner of a huge cattle ranch. He rode up to one of the ranch hands, and inquired, "Pardon me, but could you perhaps tell me where I might locate your master?" To which the cowboy replied, "That sumbitch ain't been born yet".

So, what'll it be? Wine or Beer? Domestic or Imported?:D

[returntotheeve]

So where does the line form to applaud you? I knew we were in for it after "The Flood".

[wtdoor67]

The current "conservatives" have done such a fine job we must vote them back in, right?




It's all just clever marketing, and the Republicans are simply must better at it than Democrats. If voters are dumb enough to go for it, then they get what they deserve.

[Buzz Lightyear]

The current "conservatives" have done such a fine job we must vote them back in, right?




It's all just clever marketing, and the Republicans are simply must better at it than Democrats. If voters are dumb enough to go for it, then they get what they deserve.
ON the Contrary, the Conservative Movement in the government we have in place is non existent! The man running our Country into the Ground with Reckless abandon is a 70's era Democrat. his politics are Identical to those of Democrats of that era. this is not to say that I dont agree with Democrats on things because there are Issues in which I Do. just as there are issues in which I side with Republicans aswell. lets be Clear I AM A CONSERVATIVE!!!!!I am not a Fan of Mr Bush on MANY of his Policies.:mad:
I will never be ok with the Continual Persecution of my Fellow Marines
for made up Bullshit Crimes that come with the nature of doing the very thing we trained them for PROTECTING THIS GREAT COUNTRY AGAINST ALL ENEMIES FOREIGN & DOMESTIC!!!!!:cool: The Fact the we Imprison any of our men and women for such things are excessive use of live rounds in a war zone, the deaths of innocent civilians while tragic, is a normal occurence and is justified because they are in A WARZONE!!!!!!!:mad:

at the same time let us not forget about the Constant Cronyism played out by our elected officials on both sides. oil being but one of many of such cases . I'm for business but not in the name of raping our fellow man who may not have been the most successful man in town but rather just a small town southern man but is considered to be nothing by Big Business and thus run out of town all in the name of the almighty $ and Capitalism!

truly we as a nation are in trouble. we are in tyranny!
and a great example of that tyranny is Government imposed Gun Control!!!
something that Bush isn't responsible for but that **** of a wife of a certain ex president certainly is and most certainly will further impose on all of us!:mad:

[wtdoor67]

You old Devil Dog.

I'm mighty worried about gun control, abortion and immigration. If we will just worry about that then we won't have to worry about that War will we?

Bush claims to be a conservative and so does McCain. Which is it gonna be?

Ah Clinton set all this in place so poor George would take the blame. Those Democrats are so devious aren't they?

[Buzz Lightyear]

Now THAT is a writng of masterful proportions.

Did you write that? If not, do you know who might have put such unabashed truth to paper? I would sure like to read more of this persons writings? That was and IS Cool.
Sadly the Author of this magnificent Writing remains Unknown!
I too would enjoy reading any other writings he may have be they political or not!:cool:

[Buzz Lightyear]

You old Devil Dog.

I'm mighty worried about gun control, abortion and immigration. If we will just worry about that then we won't have to worry about that War will we?

Bush claims to be a conservative and so does McCain. Which is it gonna be?

Ah Clinton set all this in place so poor George would take the blame. Those Democrats are so devious aren't they?
Clintoon isn't the only one that set much of this in place! Bush SR caused some Damage, lets not Forget Carter and all of his Big Mistakes! and Bush JR is just an Idiot all on his own. Nixon had Issues, Johnson was a Pussy.
the last great true conservative President was Eisenhower.
the last great Liberal President was FDR. he was a Decent Liberal and truly for the People despite what his Critics say!

Abortion, its a deep rooted issue with no end in sight.

Immigration hell we are a nation of Immigrants I will concede that fact. hell I'm the son of Immigrant parents. I didn't learn English until I was in 1st Grade. But we (my Family& I) improvised, we adapted and we overcame . we are Citizens of this Country unlike the millions who refuse to do so and in stead Continually suck on the tits of Auntie SAM!

Gun Control, is not about Democrat or Republican.
it's not about Liberalism or even conservativism.
it's simply do not Punish those who abide by laws, choose to defend their own and are not afraid to protect that which they continually bust their balls for and will be damned if some Backwards hat ,saggy pants ,gold chain wearing welfare check collecting ,refuses to get a job ,lazy ignorant bastard is going to take from them! and further more if you are too much of a pussy to stand up for your self, your Family and for your Country and protect that which is important to you, then you deserve what ever Fate Becomes of you.
dont punish those who are aware of their Job and hold true to that with Honor and integrity and conviction!:mad::cool:

[wtdoor67]

Back at you goober.

If your knowledge of politics match your knowledge of linework then I doubt you will be taken very seriously.

Duh I'm just a distribution lineman and I'm not very technical.

I've had a little smattering of a little of most of it but I know I still have a lot to learn.

What little technical knowledge I have was simply gained by looking in a book. This is something you evidently have never done.

The only trick I have ever seen you post is hanging a piece of wire on your belt to put nuts and washers on. Wow! Now that is innovative.

Have a nice day.

By the way, I wouldn't piss on your ass if your guts were on fire.

[Pootnaigle]

Economics 101 straight from the University of Ga. This is pretty funny.



BAR STOOL ECONOMICS

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. 'Since you are all such good customers,' he said, 'I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20.' Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?' They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

An d so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. 'I only got a dollar out of the $20,'declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,' but he got $10!' 'Yeah, that's right,' exclaimed the fifth man. 'I only saved a dollar too It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!' 'That's true!!' shouted the seventh man. 'Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!' 'Wait a minute,' yelled the first four men in unison. 'We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!'

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill,
they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!


And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax t hem too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might
start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics University of Georgia

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

[Buzz Lightyear]

Economics 101 straight from the University of Ga. This is pretty funny.



BAR STOOL ECONOMICS

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. 'Since you are all such good customers,' he said, 'I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20.' Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?' They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

An d so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. 'I only got a dollar out of the $20,'declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,' but he got $10!' 'Yeah, that's right,' exclaimed the fifth man. 'I only saved a dollar too It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!' 'That's true!!' shouted the seventh man. 'Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!' 'Wait a minute,' yelled the first four men in unison. 'We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!'

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill,
they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!


And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax t hem too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might
start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics University of Georgia

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

This was a great read , thanks! Brilliant!!!:cool:

[wormy]

The guy you said wrote this note said he didn't write it

[wormy]

swimp how can it be in your words"the complete truth" if the guy didn't write it?

[Buzz Lightyear]

swimp how can it be in your words"the complete truth" if the guy didn't write it?
Because Regardless of who authored it, was Competent enough in economics
and intelligent enough to make almost anyone understand how Simple economics works! the Basis of this Writing is what is truthful!
it's not a matter of who wrote it.

its like pole Climbing: It's not what we do for a Living, its just a way we get to our work!:cool:

[returntotheeve]

This whole illustration is bullshit anyway! Our economics can't be reduced to such simple terms that swamp can digest. No one on this little board knows the tenth guy at the bar. The tenth guy won't let you into his world. The tenth guy has his house featured in magazines. The tenth guy pays his driver more than what we earn. The tenth guy at the bar wouldn't sit with anyone there except maybe the ninth guy but only because he's the guy his sister married and had to bring him into the family business. Here's how it really is. The tenth guy owns the bar. The tenth guy has the clicker in his hand because he controls the media. The tenth guy has to buy because he outsourced the first five guy's jobs. Six and seven are just glad their wives work gives them decent health care (third party owned by #10). Number eight is the rare bird that actually has a good job in America and feels for the other guys but realizes he's a paycheck away from being them. Simple minds buy into simple ideas.

[wtdoor67]

I always like what President Harry Truman said. "If you take a thousand economist and lay them end to end they would point in a thousand different directions."

If economics were simple then it would just be the matter of following a few principles. No body understands economics.

[wtdoor67]

Well Mr. Technical give us a few lessons in economics. You're really stupid aren't you?

Duh, if you will hang a piece of copper on your belt for nuts and washers it will make the price of copper go up on the international market. I may not be technical but I'm shore smart. What a numb nut.

[returntotheeve]

Well....If you're that "handsom", you could BE that 10th guy.
You're in the wrong line of work man.

You should be on the left coast, with all the other "handsome" 10th guys makin millions!:D
Well, I am a handsome mf but my charm is what grabs you.
Either you don't read the posts or you don't understand the posts. You didn't bother to read the website refuting the casualties list, maybe you're lazy or maybe its too info dense. Where you come up with that I'm a "tenth" guy or should be is beyond me. Though I am one in a million. Why the average "conservative" is so caught up with these tenth guys is beyond me. They don't give a shit about you. They care about you the same way "cons" politicians care about the religious right after election day. And...

[returntotheeve]

... who the hell thinks King George, Hitler, and Stalin were liberals? Even if you go by the name socialist and communist liberal is not how I would describe them. I thought libs were tacked as being pacifists, wimps, etc... these men are none of these. Oh yeah cons, pacifist and wimp are two different things. Not every conflict needs to end with a fist to the face.

[wormy]

So swamp are you saying that you think we should tax cut the rich? What about the rest of us

What rich guy should i thank for my utility job?

[wtdoor67]

What closet you been hiding in? George Will is a right wing nut that's been around for a coons age. He was Ronald Reagan's suck butt buddy.

Don't you ever do anything but listen to Rush Limbaugh? Now there's a sage.

[wormy]

I have not read article yet. I will and comment. But I know you can't move any farther to the right without running into hitler. That does not mean he is wrong in the article. We will see

[wormy]

Ya havin to have somebody explain all that to ya before ya comment?

No I am having my assistants read it and give me the highlights

[wormy]

• ExxonMobil's 2007 profit of $40.6 billion annoys you. Do you know that its profit, relative to its revenue, was smaller than Microsoft's and many other corporations'? And that reducing ExxonMobil's profits will injure people who participate in mutual funds, index funds and pension funds that own 52 percent of the company?

Just what is George saying, he is spinning. That statement means nothing


• You say John McCain is content to "watch [Americans'] home prices decline." So, government should prop up housing prices generally? How? Why? Were prices ideal before the bubble popped? How does a senator know ideal prices? Have you explained to young couples straining to buy their first house that declining prices are a misfortune?

Its like this statement He quotes that 'watch [Americans'] home prices decline." The rest is spin that he is saying not Obama

My thoughts are it was a cheap shot at obama by taking a small bite of what he said and then George puttting his spin on it
and yes George is a right wing nut job

Now if your not very smart you would suck it all up because its what you want to hear? But Obama did not say it George said it

[wormy]

I sure agree with you about Florida and Michigan. Super screwup
I don't see how they can go back and count them now. I don't think obama even entered Michigan. Could be wrong
Of course the Republicans have a little history of stuff in Florida too and they do have the last 8 years to try forget about. I think thats what is wrong like you. They get in for 8 and out for 8 and when they do get in its all about greed.

I can agree with McCain somewhat in we need to take care of Iraq after we screwed it up. Maybe just sit back and lob bombs as needed, get as many of the troops out as possible. I don't really no the answer to that one, but my brother in law who is a reservest just got called back up. Spent the first year of war in Mosul. Think he is going to Afganistan this time

But you got me all wrong, I am an Independent. Never been a Rep or Dem

I don't have a clue who I am going to vote for yet.

I keep hoping Ron Paul runs as a Independent and beats em all

[duckhunter]

Got this pic sent to me yesterday

[rat1369]

Well, please tell your brother in law..."Thank you very much". Sincerely.

As for bein an Independent. Well, that's a "nice" word to throw around. What does it really mean? You can't vote in either the democrat or republican primarys? So...You just sit back and "form opinions", then vote?

That's sorta like sayin you're a "christian", but don't want to "commit" to any "organized religion". At least I'm honest about what I am. I don't hide behind the term "Independent", and mouth off like a republican.

That's cool though I guess. Too bad the whole damn country ain't "Independent".:D In both politics AND Religion.

It is sorta like "riddin the fence", or "middle of the road" type shit though.

You don't want no real "association" to anything.
You just want to be "Independent", and voice your opinion, when you have one.
Sorta like why ya won't post a pict. Don't want to put a face with your words. I can dig it. I just never could get a grip on people that didn't have an "anchor" so to speak. Never trusted them, or what they said, cause you really have nothing to trust them on. They're "Independent".

As for Ron, or My man...Bloomberg.....Shit. ANYBODY but one of these 3 assholes.
Shit.....:(

saying that one is independent is the basis of this country. not that i agree with most of wormy's comments on policy or politics, his choiced to be independent, as i am, takes more balls than just belonging to a party and going along for the ride. Reagan would completely disavow this current republican party, as woodrow wilson would do the same with the democrats. both parties are heading in the wrong direction, as is this country.

[duckhunter]

rat 1369,
I can't disagree with you about the current Republican party, ther is zero leadership. The last thing Republicans should try to be is Liberal Lite.

It is hard to see much of a difference with Liberals, (who want gov't funded health-care; gov't bail-outs for those that lied on their mortgage applications and the idiots that granted such loans; mimimum wage laws; maximum laws; a living constitution that can be changed by a few in the right place) and Communists

[PA BEN]

You old Devil Dog.

I'm mighty worried about gun control, abortion and immigration. If we will just worry about that then we won't have to worry about that War will we?

Bush claims to be a conservative and so does McCain. Which is it gonna be?

Ah Clinton set all this in place so poor George would take the blame. Those Democrats are so devious aren't they?
Clinton rode the wave Reagan started while he was in office. So did Bush #1. Clinton didn't do a dam thing while in office, unless you think NAFTA was doing something.:eek:

[wormy]

Clinton didn't do a dam thing

Sure he didn't have one built in Georgia or something?:D

[wormy]

saying that one is independent is the basis of this country. not that i agree with most of wormy's comments on policy or politics, his choiced to be independent,

Thank you very much, I don't want to be linked to either party. On here I just try to point out what is BS. Lot of that posted on here

Duckhunter that might be Limbaughs idea of a liberal, but i WOULD question it. You want to talk constitution and the damage that has been done to it over the past 8 years? What I got a problem with is people who think stuff is true because a radio host tells them it is true. Or they get in an email(all of swimps info)I got a HUGE problem with not following the Geneva convention

I also have a big problem with both parties and how they spend my money, illegals, I am for giving the Democrats a chance. These past 4 years have set the country back decades in morals and respect from other countries, debt,oil prices etc

I am for ending the BS between the parties. lets get back to working together for the country. I am for the fairness doctrine so at least you can get both sides of the story. These tv and radio stations are owned by BIG BUSINESS, it is not in their interest to put out the facts. Either that or just kick both sides off the air. Make em back up what they say is the truth. Fine em if its BS

[RWD]

Makes a good read and supports both sides but does not clarify either. Anyone could take part of the convention out of context and make it read for thier side of the argument. Taken as a whole it is a piece of paper with no defined rule.

RWD

This part sets out the overall parameters for GCIII:

Articles 1 and 2 cover which parties are bound by GCIII
Article 2 specifies when the parties are bound by GCIII

4.1.2 Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, provided that they fulfill all of the following conditions:
that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance (there are limited exceptions to this among countries who observe the 1977 Protocol I);
that of carrying arms openly;
that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

The phrase "unlawful combatant" does not appear in the Third Geneva Convention (GCIII).[1] However, Article 4 of GCIII does describe categories under which a person may be entitled to POW status; and there are other international treaties which deny lawful combatant status for mercenaries and children. In the United States, the Military Commissions Act of 2006 codified the legal definition of this term, and invested the U.S. President with broad discretion to determine whether a person may be designated an unlawful enemy combatant. The assumption that such a category as unlawful combatant exists is not contradicted by the findings by the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia in the Celebici Judgment. The judgement quoted the 1958 ICRC commentary on the Fourth Geneva Convention: Every person in enemy hands must be either a prisoner of war and, as such, be covered by the Third Convention; or a civilian covered by the Fourth Convention. Furthermore, "There is no intermediate status; nobody in enemy hands can be outside the law,"[4] because in the opinion of the ICRC "If civilians directly engage in hostilities, they are considered 'unlawful' or 'unprivileged' combatants or belligerents (the treaties of humanitarian law do not expressly contain these terms). They may be prosecuted under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action".[1][5]


Camp x-ray, Guantánamo.The Geneva Conventions do not recognize any lawful status for combatants in conflicts not involving two or more nation states. A state in such a conflict is legally only bound to observe Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions, and may ignore all the other Articles. But each one of them is completely free -- and should be encouraged -- to apply all or part of the remaining Articles of the Convention.[6]

[wormy]

So RWD torture is okay? Is that the country we have become? Is torture ok in the Geneva convention? I know you posted parts of it I am not sure of yor point. I did not mention camp gitmo I mentioned torture

And yes swamp your BS

[duckhunter]

I believe torture may be appropriate at times. May not be PC to say it, but I believe it. I think Liberals are right about some things, see I am opened minded.

[RWD]

Tried for torture or even condemed for torture of the US troops who were lawful combatants and under the rule of law?

Define torture before you ask a question requireing an answere like that. I have been "Tortured" by my wife. And she left no marks.

RWD

[duckhunter]

Oops, I didn't get permission from Rush to write that last post. I'll probably have to retract it.

[500 KVA]

That's interesting. I guess it's okay to torture someone else, but you'd draw the line when you or your family would be the ones tortured. Typical of someone that would buy into the Bush theory of things. You probably believe everything you're told by the President and his cronies; I'd wager!

Loop holes are never going to be eliminated. Nothing is ever perfect. As long as there are those who look for ways to not follow the spirit of the convention, there will be loop holes to follow. I don't think we do that perfect a job either.

there was a time where we were considered moral and would not do the things other nations would do. Now if it gets us what we want, and we don't think we'll get caught, then we go ahead and do it. Just like Mom, Apple Pie and Corporate profits. It's all American!

Just don't get caught or we'll hang you out to dry while the president remains as clean as a freshly washed white sheet.

[duckhunter]

If my son was a terrorist, I would be fine with torture to get the information that would save the lives of others. Even the lives of idiot Liberals.

It will be interesting to see how you people try to cover for the next President.

[wormy]

It will be interesting to see how you people try to cover for the next President. I did not know we had picked one yet, its been very interesting watching guys like you cover for Bush. Throwing BS out here as fact


Were the North Vietnamese What does that have to do we us torturing? That since the NV tortured its okay? Come on, RWD you used to act half way smart, now i don't even know what you are trying to say


idiot Liberals.
I would not even torture an arian nation type Repub such as yourself. Its all about right and wrong, which apparently you don't know. If they were dunking you in water would you just tell them what they wanted to hear?

[RWD]

Hmmm arion nation huh? Gee hope I spelled it right.

Identify yourself as an enemy and get the convetion.

It's neat how years and years of the media telling fictional tales of bad military leaders and government leaders are coming into the fruition of "they are therfore they are bad"

Yes there are corrupt and bad folks in the military and inthe government but by far the majority are just like us ... trying to make a living. They are not fictional heroes nor are they fictional bad guys.

I do not hold with disfiguring torture like pulling off finger nails or burning pokers on the bottoms of feet. Hanging tied to a tree by your balls or analy probed (except for searches).

Having lived in many 3rd and 4th world countries I would venture to guess they feel tortured because they have been deliced as well. The fact that they even have a koran is amazing to me. That they are allowed to excersise and worship is amazing. They are prisiners not guests. They tried to kill our people and would gladly kill us, does that mean we let them free to try again?

I'd guess that from first hand experiance ... the last person or group of traitors I would beleive is the US press corp. Having Served in the armed forces the first person I would give credence to, is someone currently serving.

I think I've told the story of watching a "live" firefight on TV that according to the CNN reporter on the "LIVE FEED" was supposed to happening about 2 blocks from my house. The only gunfire that night was the gunfire on TV.

If you are going to beleive everything you hear bad about our government ... either investigate it or move to a better county.

So far what I have heard does not meet my definition of torture. Even if confirmed by a source other that CNN.

Morality? You'll kill a baby but get upset when a known combatant says someone peed on his Koran? Give me a break.

RWD

[RWD]

I am registerd independent and I voted for a Black guy ... does that make ne a better arion?

RWD

[RWD]

As someone who has had real training, one of the first thing they tell you is to go ahead and spill your guts if they want to get mean. Thats why intelegence and orders are compartmentalized.

RWD

[Buzz Lightyear]

As someone who has had real training, one of the first thing they tell you is to go ahead and spill your guts if they want to get mean. Thats why intelegence and orders are compartmentalized.

RWD

Sure go ahead, sell out your Unit, sell out your Brothers in arms, sell out your country and countrymen! Loose Lips Sink Ships!
an age old saying that still rings true to this day!

I too have had Training!! Never ever had any person in charge over me ever tell me it was permissable to spill my guts with info!
Not even in S.E.R.E School where Torture is the tip of the Iceberg!!;)

Men with loose lips in my branch of service got Blanket Parties
and usually didn't amount to much or get very far !
I'll be damned if Anyone was going to get info out of me that would lead to the Deaths of My Fellow Marines, my unit, My Corps or my Country!
I spent time in 3rd and 4th world countrys aswell : Kosovo,Bosnia,Yugoslavia& Eastern European Theater in late 90's. definely an eye opener.

SEMPER FI!:cool:

[wormy]

As someone who has had real training
Buzz sure burned you on that one, his training was a little different from your so called training. He was trained to be a marine.


Identify yourself as an enemy and get the convetion. what in the world are you talking about and what is a convetion?

If
you are going to beleive everything you hear bad about our government ... either investigate it or move to a better county.
You seem to like living elsewhere you move. I say waterboarding has been going on are you saying that it isn't ?


Morality? You'll kill a baby but get upset Id kill a baby? You would kill 2 babies, or a million with your stupid nuke em till they glow


think I've told the story of watching a "live" firefight on TV that according to the CNN reporter on the "LIVE FEED" was supposed to happening about 2 blocks from my house. The only gunfire that night was the gunfire on TV.
That is one thing about the internet, you can make up what ever you want. Doesn't mean it is true. CNN might have done it but you just happen to be 2 blocks away watching CNN HMMMMMMM sounds like BS to me. I bet you have seen a few UFO's or no wait that was a guided missle flying by your house:rolleyes:

[duckhunter]

Skwormy,
The one difference between most of us and you is that we don't believe our President has done everything right. You don't seem to believe he has done or ever will do anything right. I believe he is right on the war, I believe he was given bad intelligence about it. I believe he has been wrong all the way through his presidency on spending and earmarks. I believe he is right on our relationship with Isreal. I believe he is right on stem-cell research.

[wormy]

You don't seem to believe he has done or ever will do anything right.
Duckhunter I have never said that, you said that

stem cell research-If we can save someones life I am all for it


I believe he was given bad intelligence about it. maybe maybe not


wrong all the way through his presidency on spending and earmarks spending yes earmarks no, he has bankrupted the country, earmarks are such a small part of the budget I am for them, we give all this money to all these other countries I am happy when we can get some of it. It is our money.


relationship with Isreal Maybe, maybe not, I am not smart enough to figure that one out


I believe he is right on the war, I think he was wrong, I thought he was right at the time. I got caught up in it just like everyone else. But the President should know more than me. If we had pulled out when they turned over the statue it would have been okay. Rummy really screwed it up

[wtdoor67]

It sounds good to vow that you are trained to never give up information to the enemy even when tortured and you have to believe it.

However the record doesn't show that it will work. I have read many accounts of the POW's in N. Vietnam. They all said after torture at a certain point you will tell your captors anything they want to hear.

Ask John McCain what he believes about torture.

According to McCain he gave them much misinformation. That's about all you could do. Many of the captives felt they had betrayed their fellow captives when they broke.

The point I'm trying to make is that torture doesn't produce reliable information. This point is made over and over but our gov. seems to ignore it. I would suggest that all of the Chickenhawks in congress that are in good health undergo a session of waterboarding and then vote if it's torture or not.

It always strikes me that almost all of the Chickenhawks that are for war have never served in the military. I think it gives a different perspective. Bring back the draft with no exceptions.

[duckhunter]

I am not sure how I feel at this time about waterboarding. What some need to realize is that when people start calling putting underwear on someone's head or the stuff that went on at Gitmo as torture, they loose me and a lot of others.

wtdoor67 I think you will agree that there is too wide of a range on what is called torture. I've never been tortured, and hope I never am. There are a hell of a lot of Americans that seem to relate inconvienence with torture.

[wtdoor67]

I think waterboarding is probably torture. I don't really know. I have seen some simulated waterboarding on the tube. They said it seemed like drowning. That sounds like torture to me. They said in extreme it could lead to organ damage.

Read an interesting book once. I don't recall the author, but he was fluent in Vietnamese as he was reared by missionary parents in Viet Nam. He retired as an army warrant officer. He asserted that he uncovered a lot of information by just talking in a calm way with enemy captives. He knew enough about the country and customs he was able to easily discern if they were lying. He knew about the accents of the different parts of Viet Nam and was able to place them as to the area of their childhood etc.

The name of the book was "Talking to Mr. Charlie."

He did see some brutality that was usually administered by the S. Vietnamese upon the VC captives and NVA captives. Didn't do any good according to him.

Another comment by a different person addressed the problem of training Americans to speak Vietnamese. Said it was kind of a difficult language and could have been solved by simply teaching French language and using existing French speakers from the USA. It seems most Vietnamese spoke French already.

[RWD]

YES and AMEN. Loose lips sink ships. I absolutly agree. However,Both in the Military service and in the civilian overseas service, we were told not to volunteer info, but also not to hold out if torture was being applied.

Standard practice if kidnapped overseas is to cooperate with your captor. As for telling movements? If I knew more than my squad or company movements, Someone else had loose lips. By the time torture is applied the level of damage done by providing the information is minimized. Most squad or company movements are provided on a daily as needed basis.

Special forces run by a different book. Knowing some of them then and now and hearing thier tails (from Vietnam and Korea) It was not considered good edicate to be taken alive period. In one case a wound American GI was killed by his squad leader to keep any posibility of that happening.

As for the CNN issue. El Salvador, San Benito, San Salvador, Circa 1991. We had Local Cable and had CNN piped in from the USA via Sat. I worked in EL Salvador from 1990 to 1997.

The local CNN crews got thier stories from the bar in the Camino Real Hotel. They rarely if ever left the downtown district. I worked country wide as needed.

If you don't beleive me ... well thats ok too. I'm not too concerned about folks who make up thier mind and spout, before they look at the facts. Or that make up, or choose just the facts to support thier views.

TTFN

RWD

[500 KVA]

What a bunch of purified B.S. direct from the bull's butt.

Furst of all the Uniformed code of conduct is universal for every branch of service. It states you will provide only your last name, rank, branch of service, and identification number. You are not to give them anything else under penalty of the Uniformed code of Military Justice.

The military knows that after so much torture anyone will talk. That's why classified information is on a need to know basis only. Nobody will be able to hold out for ever. giving misinformation as much as possible.

As for the squad leader killing a wounded soldier. That is MURDER! That is not a lawful order that could be followed by any soldier. Just like killing unarmed enemy soldiers once taken into captivity, or civilian non-combatants. MURDER!!!!!!!!! I'm sorry not good edicate. same thing.

If you believed that story, I got some land to sell you in the everglades. What a chump. They must have laughed for weeks after you fell for that one.

I wouldn't think a lineman working in the third world would be privy to much top secret information. You could tell them how many apprentices and journeymen you have working. sensitive stuff.

What was going on in El Sal in 1991 that there would be an on site CNN news crew? Maybe a local yocal crew that had a feed to cnn. Anyway they could have poor communication and got the towns name wrong. It happens all the time. Big deal!

We are all impressed with the name dropping you've done about the places you work. What does that mean? You an authority in torture and military operations because of that? I'm certain there are a few ex-military on here to know your full of excriment. Just as I do!

Why don't you provide more detail and fact instead of talking out your a$$ because I don't buy it!

[RWD]

Proving points.

Yes code says Name rank and Serial is all you have to give them. More than that should be under duress.

Look up Civil war el salvador. No the neighborhood was not wrong.

I did not have tactical info as a linehand in El salvador. We were taught what to do if taken as hostage.

Average soldiers do not have tactical info either.

Dropping names?

That was not murder it was operations. The gentleman I heard from has won the medal of honor and has several purple hearts. It does not matter because you won't believe it anyhow. It does not fit your mold of facts.

Since I'm a blow hard I'll quit blowing and let you all live in your own worlds of rose colored glasses.

Say hi to Jane for me!

RWD

[Buzz Lightyear]

AGAIN I re-iterate : sell out your Platoon, your brothers in arms, your unit and your Country! and may the likes of others with ideology like yours NEVER again serve my country!!!

Speaking of Spec-ops they do lots of things and operate as standard procedure that Most of us NEVER hear about! theres a reason for that :
THEY'RE SPECIAL OPERATIONS!!!!!!!!!;)
regardless of branch of service, if your in ANY type of OPS unit
you have minimum Secret- level Clearance, as per mission Specific you Glean info in ways that are NOT standard & Certainly not basic Operating procedure!

and any spec-ops personnel Certainly would never be Broadcasting their Protocols, mission Specifics, Glory stories ,operating procedures ETC on ANY PUBLIC FORUM!!!!:rolleyes:

[wormy]

I am not sure how I feel at this time about waterboarding. What some need to realize is that when people start calling putting underwear on someone's head or the stuff that went on at Gitmo as torture
I really don't know what went on at Gitmo, my thought is that waterboarding is torture. Putting underwear on someones head is not torture, it is just stupid, why do it?

I will have to agree RWD yours is BS. Go ahead and run and hide its getting a little to hot for you

Hey Swamp, You and lost art okay? I haven't heard from you. I have been hearing about the fires down your way. If it is bad now it doesn't look good for the summer. Seriously I hope everything is okay I think you live around orlando and that seems to be a hot spot. Be safe

[wormy]

Say hi to Jane for me!

RWD it sounds like you have pissed off some REAL soldiers. Better watch what you say,

Thanks guys for your service. I am ashamed to say I did not. My brother in law is in the reserves of the 101st airborne. Getting ready to do a second tour. My brother was a chaplin in the army years ago

[RWD]

The underwear waterboard thing was not me.

RWD

[wormy]

The underwear waterboard thing was not me. DUH


I will have to agree RWD yours is BS. Go ahead and run and hide its getting a little to hot for you Thats for you

[RWD]

Just checking Wormy. I can't prove my history over the net. I guess I'll just have to lurk for awhile and lick my wounds ...

I have 100% respect for the armed services and for the most part our Government. Republican or Dem. It's folks who jump on the talking points without confirmed facts acting on emotion, reacting to a situation as a back seat driver and claiming the high ground that I take issue with. But then in some cases that might be me too.

I seem to have been a little to short in one or two of my statements and they were not taken in the context that I meant them but, to bad so sad.

I'll have to remember that personal history and aquantences are not a basis for discusing on this forum as they are always brought into question as BS.

You folks enjoy, I'll sit back and watch.

RWD

[wormy]

Everyone should serve. Draft ended a couple of years before I turned 18. Then I went to school

As far as all your other stuff,whatever.....your just real tuff around your lips:)

[wormy]

blah, blah blah blah like i said your treal tuff around the lips


Naw. I just know what's REAL about America....and what's Bullshit.
Now swamp how much of the stuff that you haven posted on here as fact has been proven as BS? Its not me posting the urban legends crap its you go look in the mirror its you posting the BS


Well,...ya could of joined...After "School". If you were that "ashamed". Yeah could have would have been a smart thing to do. If I had been in the Navy it could have helped my power company career quite a bit. Instead I was out acting like a idiot, I was more interested in a party and women. Wasn't very grown up acting


Seems that's the general comment from liberals when they are confronted with REAL questions. What REAL question did you even ask


But hay.... You know I had to pay 6$ for a bale of straw:D