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loodvig
07-10-2008, 06:28 AM
Worker critical after shock from power lines in Haverhill Nurse from nursing home tries to revive victim
By Bill Cantwell
Staff Writer


July 10, 2008 12:02 am



HAVERHILL — A man working for an electrical company is in critical condition after receiving a shock from power wires on Boardman Street, police said.

They said the man is in Merrimack Valley Hospital, about a half-mile from where the accident occurred. They are not releasing the man's identity, saying only that he is in his 50s and lives in Massachusetts.

He is employed by Harlan, a firm doing subcontracting work for National Grid, police said.

Sgt. John Arahovites said the man was in a bucket that lifted him to overhead power lines when he received the shock just after 12:30 p.m. Monday at a utility pole on Boardman Street. Arahovites said a fellow worker was on the ground and noticed the victim was motionless in the bucket. It is unclear whether the victim suffered a medical problem, such as a heart attack, and then leaned against the power wires or came into contact with them some other way, Arahovites said.

"They noticed he was erect but motionless," he said of the victim. "They yelled to him but he was unresponsive."

Workers lowered the bucket, Arahovites said, and officers Jason Pearl and Penny Portalla, who were working private traffic details at the site, began doing CPR on the victim. Officer Lance Dawkins and Lt. Anthony Haugh, who were also nearby, arrived and tried to help with CPR.

A nurse from nearby Baker-Katz Nursing Home ran to the victim and used a defibrillator — a device that jolts the heart with electric current to restore a heartbeat, Arahovites said. The man was rushed to Merrimack Valley Hospital, where he remains.

"He's still in critical condition," Arahovites said last night.

Arahovites said Detective Jack Moses and officials from the Occupational Safety and Health Administration are investigating.

The victim came into contact with the wires at a utility pole just south of the nursing home. National Grid is replacing utility poles in the area.

Rhoda McCartney, who lives on nearby Keeley Street, and her husband, Paul, were driving on Boardman Street when the accident occurred. She said police working the traffic detail around the electrical company workers stopped her car briefly to let other vehicles pass. She and her husband looked up at the bucket and saw the victim receive the shock from the power lines, she said.

"We saw the guy slump in the bucket," she said. "His body jerked. He was hanging half off the bucket and half in. They were yelling, 'Get him out. Get him out.' They were calling his name and he was not responding."

BigClive
07-10-2008, 03:46 PM
A nurse from nearby Baker-Katz Nursing Home ran to the victim and used a defibrillator — a device that jolts the heart with electric current to restore a heartbeat, Arahovites said. The man was rushed to Merrimack Valley Hospital, where he remains.

"He's still in critical condition," Arahovites said last night.



But wouldn't it have been better if there had been a defibrillator on site in the truck so it could have been applied sooner.........

But look on the bright side. His employer saved almost a thousand bucks.

grizzlybuck
07-10-2008, 08:37 PM
More sad news about an injured Brother, prayers go out for him and his family.

I wish those in the news media had a bit of a clue about our work and the hazards involved, and would therefore be in a better position to criticize, and publicize unsafe work practices, be they from our fault or the companies negligence through poor training or lack of manpower. Maybe this would open some eyes in the public and would help cut down on these accidents.

loodvig
07-11-2008, 05:11 AM
HAVERHILL — To Cyndi Lou Brignac, it seems like more than a coincidence.

But whether it was fate or the hand of God or some other force that guided her to Boardman Street at precisely 12:40 Monday afternoon, it doesn't matter to her.

Brignac, a Merrimack Valley Hospital nurse, just feels lucky she was there. She saw what she calls "a bad mix" — police cruisers speeding up to an electrical company truck, officers scrambling to the base of a utility pole, a man lying on the ground unconscious.

The man — John Kaye, 52, of Hingham, who was working around power lines on the pole — had received an electrical shock. Brignac was driving through the area because she lives a block away on Paula Lane. She had just come back from Maine with her daughter and got back to Haverhill sooner than expected after deciding they did not have time for shopping in Kittery.

Brignac jumped out of her car and ran to Kaye.

" I said to myself, 'This can't be good.' Instinct took over," Brignac recounted yesterday. "His face was gray, and I did a quick assessment. He was not breathing and did not have a pulse."

She said it became a group effort — she supervised as police Officer Penny Portalla gave the victim CPR. A worker from nearby Baker-Katz Nursing Home provided them with a defibrillator — a device that jolts the heart with electric current to restore a heartbeat.

The device worked, marginally, and Brignac, operating on Adrenalin, considered what to do next.

"He was in a deadly rhythm,' she said of Kaye's highly irregular heartbeat. "We shocked him a second time (with the defibrillator) and got a pulse in his neck. He wasn't breathing well. It must have been 100 degrees on the sidewalk."

Before she knew it, an ambulance had arrived and paramedics were moving Kaye into the vehicle. They raced away to nearby Merrimack Valley Hospital, where he has remained in critical condition since.

Kaye was working for the Harlan company, which is doing subcontracting work for National Grid on power lines and utility poles on Boardman Street near the Baker-Katz Nursing Home, police said. National Grid is replacing utility poles in the area.

Kaye was in a bucket that lifts workers to overhead power lines, when a fellow worker on the ground noticed Kaye was motionless in the bucket, police said. Workers quickly lowered him to the ground, and police officers working private traffic details around the job site rushed to help him.

Brignac said she is thankful that the circumstances of her day brought her to that spot at that moment.

"It wasn't just me. It was like a village of people — the police, even Merrimack Valley Hospital because of the training they've provided me," she said. "I felt like I was doing my part to help. Sometimes weird things happen for good reasons."

Deputy police Chief Donald Thompson said Kaye's condition remained critical yesterday — the same as it has been since he received the electrical shock.

Meanwhile, Haverhill detectives and state safety officials continue to investigate why Kaye received the shock from the power lines — whether he had a medical event such as a heart attack that caused him to lean against the wires, or if there was an equipment problem or other cause.

"They're checking eyewitness accounts of the incident, looking to see if there were any safety violations and to see if there was a problem with equipment," Thompson said.

He said equipment problems in cases like this could involve something as simple as the worker using gloves that were not well-enough insulated to protect him from electricity as he handled lines, or could be something more complex. Thompson said the investigation could take several days or longer. Haverhill Det. Jack Moses and officials from the Occupational Safety and Health Administration are investigating.

Brignac said she decided to leave the hospital's administrative position and focus on nursing because her father, while in Florida, had major problems with his heart rhythm and did not receive help before major damage happened, eventually causing him to die.

"I decided to go more toward where I was needed most," Brignac said. "I can make a difference."

mainline
07-11-2008, 08:15 AM
Its nice that we now have police making informed opinions about line incidents. My thoughts got out to him and his family.

BigClive
07-11-2008, 10:29 AM
"He was in a deadly rhythm,' she said of Kaye's highly irregular heartbeat. "We shocked him a second time (with the defibrillator) and got a pulse in his neck. He wasn't breathing well. It must have been 100 degrees on the sidewalk."


"They're checking eyewitness accounts of the incident, looking to see if there were any safety violations and to see if there was a problem with equipment," Thompson said.


So his heart was in a state of fibrillation and the defib got back a pulse! He might not be in an ongoing "critical" condition if a defibrillator had been used much earlier (ie - one on the f*cking truck). Hopefully if he recovers he won't have brain damage.

Yeah, I'm sure they are looking for "safety violations". Anything to pass the buck. I can save them some time since the biggest violation was NOT providing defibrillators to their live-work crews.

jafl
07-12-2008, 05:45 PM
i work for harlan in mass not on the same job as him but has worked a couple of days here and there with him everything is still hush hush about it they still dont know if it was a medical problem or if he did come into contact they said he was running a new service so he was in the secondaries it happened on monday and it was ahot humid day out here i heard how he was doing and i would rather not be the one who says it. they did find burn marks on his body but they dont know if he passed out first and then came in contact hope he pulls through if i hear anything else on monday ill post it

jafl
07-12-2008, 05:50 PM
i just read a little more and the comment i think the police officer made about not having the right gloves we were class 2 gloves even in the secondaries i know this guy had his gloves on. lineman out of our local dont need sleeves in the secondaries but this guy always wore them no matter what part of the pole he was on he might have taken his sleeves off that day becasue of the heat but he deffently had his gloves on

loodvig
07-15-2008, 06:31 PM
I talked to a Harlan worker today. The man is still alive and at the local hospital. He didn't know the mans injuries but said his family visits him daily. He did get into the secondaries and had no signs of life when they got him down. He also said the defib got him going again!

jafl
07-16-2008, 05:54 PM
when he got rushed to the hospital her was on a resperator and put into a drug reduced comma they took him off the drugs and he still hasnt woken up he was breathing on his own but not anymore hes back on the resp i guess he has no brain activity at all his brother has been with him but the rest of his family flew in from irleand today i hope he pulls through i really do no one has really heard to much more info on this i heard it not a good sign tho for some one to have no brain activity for as long as he has

Pootnaigle
07-16-2008, 08:44 PM
when he got rushed to the hospital her was on a resperator and put into a drug reduced comma they took him off the drugs and he still hasnt woken up he was breathing on his own but not anymore hes back on the resp i guess he has no brain activity at all his brother has been with him but the rest of his family flew in from irleand today i hope he pulls through i really do no one has really heard to much more info on this i heard it not a good sign tho for some one to have no brain activity for as long as he has

Ummmm dont give it a second thought I have worked with supervison that had no brain activity for years and many of em live to retirement.

BigClive
07-17-2008, 09:27 AM
If he got into the secondary then it's most likely he received a shock of enough magnitude to knock his heart out of sync without any more physical effects. I'm not comfortable about the fact that he's been put back on the ventilator and is not showing signs of brain activity. That means it WAS the delay in getting the defibrillator to him that has put him at the risk of brain damage due to lack of oxygen through loss of blood flow to the head. If there HAD been a defibrillator on the truck then it's most likely that it would have prevented this happening by re-syncing his heart and getting that blood flowing again. He'd probably have been back at work by now.

At this point I really hope he pulls though, but if he has suffered brain damage then his family may have the horrific decision of pulling the plug on his life-support equipment.

All for a sub $1000 defibrillator. When will they learn. :(

loodvig
07-18-2008, 06:52 AM
Worker shocked by power line in Haverhill is in coma, sister says
By Mike LaBella
Staff Writer


July 18, 2008 01:22 am



HAVERHILL — The sister of an electrical worker who received a shock said he is in a coma and on a respirator.

Juliette Zivic of Rye, N.H., said her brother John Kaye, 52, of Hingham was transferred this week from Merrimack Valley Hospital in Haverhill to Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston.

"He's still in a coma, he's on a respirator and there appears to be brain damage," Zivic said yesterday. "The doctors are planning to do an MRI of his brain."

Kaye, an employee of Harlan Electric of Methuen, received the shock July 7 while he was working at a utility pole on Boardman Street. He was in a bucket extended from a truck when he came into contact with power lines, police said. They are trying to determine why he received the shock — whether he had a medical emergency such as a heart attack that caused him to lean against them or if there was an equipment problem or other reason.

Several police officers and a nurse who lives nearby worked on Kaye after he was injured, and then he was rushed to Merrimack Valley Hospital.

Harlan Electric is doing subcontracting work for National Grid on power lines and utility poles on Boardman Street and elsewhere in Haverhill. National Grid is replacing utility poles.

Yesterday, Harlan spokesman Scott Lamont said his company has no comment on the incident.

"The investigation into what happened is ongoing and the company is cooperating with OSHA and the authorities," Lamont said of safety officials.

Zivic, who was 15 when her brother was born, said she took care of him until he was around 10.

"You try to look on the bright side and that he's getting the best care in Boston," Zivic said.

She said her brother is one of four boys and that they have always been a very close-knit group — "their own little club," she said.

"I'd like to extend my thanks to those who stopped to help my brother," she said. "In this day and age, sometimes people don't want to stop and help someone."

jafl
07-18-2008, 06:19 PM
another week goes by and no good news everything is still quite about john he stil is in the comma and is on the resperator witch isnt good he still has no brian acrivity everyone at our company hopes he pulls through. john is one hell of a guy one of the nicest guys u could ever meet. he did have a defibulator used on him but it wasnt one from any of our trucks we dont have them some lady ran out and used it on him i know his whole family is there with him now from ireland and i am sure they have to make a decsion soon on what they want to happen. it goes to show you how dangerous our job is. around here we have alot of 4 kv still and u here all these guys say its only 4 kv no big deal and you never hear someone say its only 120 240 its all dangerous and u never know what could happen john wasnt one of those guy who was a hot head and thought he knew everything this guy never cut conners did the job safley and respected it and it didnt matter what voltage he was working on hope this brother pulls through ill post again when i find out more

jafl
07-31-2008, 06:24 PM
jon kaye passed away on july 30 in the hospital from the accident that happened on july 7th

loodvig
07-31-2008, 06:48 PM
What a waste! I'm very sorry to hear that. My thoughts are with his family.

grizzlybuck
07-31-2008, 08:46 PM
Sad to hear another brother lost to our line of work. Be safe brothers, I know I for one was brought up wearing Kunz gloves working secondaries, and admit still struggle at times with the wearing of class 0 gloves.

Been bit a few times off secondaries and services and do not take them as seriously as I should (cover up. etc.) I remember one time I was cutting in a new transformer and had nothing covered, I was climbing and contacted the energized secondaries with my hip, and the new transformer secondary riser with my elbow (energizing the primary coil, by backfeeding through me) it hurt like hell and I can still remember the pain, 12-13 years later.

Be safe Brothers

CPOPE
08-12-2008, 03:31 PM
HAVERHILL — The electrical worker who was shocked a month ago at a utility pole on Boardman Street has died.

John Kaye, 52, of Hingham was in a coma and on a respirator for more than two weeks in Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston before he died, said his sister Juliette Zivic of Rye, N.H. She said it appeared he suffered brain damage from the shock.

Police and state safety officials continue their investigation into why Kaye came into contact with power lines — whether there was an equipment problem or if he suffered a medical problem, like a heart attack, that caused him to slump into the lines.

"Truly, there was no recovery possible," Zivic said. "They did everything possible to keep him alive."

"We're all devastated," she said of the family of six siblings.

Kaye had no wife or children, but his brothers were particularly close to him, she said.

Zivic said the family plans to stay on top of the investigation. State safety officials took his clothes to be studied, she said. No information was available from police about where the investigation stands, but last month Deputy police Chief Donald Thompson said weeks and even months could pass before it concludes.

Kaye, an employee of Harlan Electric of Methuen, died Wednesday. He received the shock July 7. He was in a bucket extended from a truck when he came into contact with the wires, police said.

Several police officers, and a nurse, who lives nearby, worked on Kaye after he was injured, and then he was rushed to nearby Merrimack Valley Hospital. He was later transferred to Brigham and Women's Hospital.

Harlan Electric is doing subcontracting work for National Grid on power lines and utility poles on Boardman Street and elsewhere in Haverhill. National Grid is replacing utility poles.

http://www.eagletribune.com/punewshh/local_story_217222652.html?keyword=secondarystory

BigClive
08-13-2008, 06:40 AM
Here's the REAL summary of the incident. The victim received an electric shock while working on live electric lines (something that happens a lot in an industry where live work is routinely carried out to save cash. His heart went into a state of ventricular fibrillation and because a defibrillator (a cheap life saving device originally designed for linemen) wasn't available, he suffered brain damage due to the loss of blood flow to his brain. A defibrillator brought over from a hospital was successfully applied, but too late to prevent brain damage and the victim died.

The lesson. Fit linetrucks with defibrillators. It's where they were originally designed to be fitted. At some point in the future the power companies are going to face manslaughter charges at a personal level for not supplying these things.

This mans family should raise charges against his employer for this exact reason.

old lineman
08-13-2008, 12:34 PM
I was surprised that you Clive mentioned saving cash as a reason we in North America work power lines alive.
The operating authorities are basically forced to do this:
1. Because it can be done safely if everyone follows the rules developed over the last century.
2. Every lineman and supervisor are required to pass through a formal training period with practical and theoritical training and experience.
3. The equipment at our finger tips is superior to any equipment of 25 years ago.
4. The computer age demands when ever possible that the power supply be uninterupted.
I wouldn't say that money isn't a motivator but it isn't the first consideration.
As mentioned live line work can be done safely if we all stay within the bounderies of safe work practices, safe work methods and wear proper PPE.

The next thing that comes to mind is the post accident investigation. It won't be worth the paper it's written on if done by the police. They don't know 'shit from putty'.
This investigation needs to be done by an independant body of "expert witnesses", former linemen is usually the best bet.
I've see the most rediculious statements in police conducted investigations, usually the source is the employer who has a coverup in mind.
Families and insurance companies often bring the expert heavy hitters producing the most reliable and factual sequence of events.
The Old Lineman.

KingRat
08-14-2008, 08:43 PM
Well said Old Lineman-Still a pleasure to read your posts, still like Clive's too.

BigClive
08-15-2008, 08:55 AM
Old lineman, the only reference to saving cash in this thread was that for the cost of a defibrillator a lineman suffered brain damage and died. The worst possible ending for this thread was that he survived in a vegetative state. I wonder if his employer will consider AEDs now. Probably not.

I do understand that a lot of linework is done live, but pole-setting in amongst live conductors is killing a lot of American linemen these days. If the training and techniques aren't being enforced then the power should be shut down. And if that means some office workers losing a half finished document or someones television going off in the middle of the news, then tough. Most UK businesses have automatic backup generators for this rare eventuality.

old lineman
08-15-2008, 12:25 PM
Old lineman, the only reference to saving cash in this thread was that for the cost of a defibrillator a lineman suffered brain damage and died. The worst possible ending for this thread was that he survived in a vegetative state. I wonder if his employer will consider AEDs now. Probably not.

I do understand that a lot of linework is done live, but pole-setting in amongst live conductors is killing a lot of American linemen these days. If the training and techniques aren't being enforced then the power should be shut down. And if that means some office workers losing a half finished document or someones television going off in the middle of the news, then tough. Most UK businesses have automatic backup generators for this rare eventuality.

If not providing employees with safety equipment ie. AED's is a saving then the focus is out of kilter.
Saving just one life would pay for providing each employee with an AED, then some.
Your right pole setting seems to be the culprit at the time.
It's nuts. Pole setting can be done safely if the time is taken to cover up the conductors----and the pole. Should a brush contact occur nothing would happen up to 36 kv.
However, setting poles in line with the energized conductors on transmission lines is hair brained.
If it has to be done then place all the poles involved, excavate the holes in advance (during the week days) and bring in a crew on the weekend to set them while the power is off. That's efficiency and the cost to customers is minimized. Everybody wins.
Some utilities think this is all ground work and linemen at the site are not necessary. Wrong!
The Old Lineman

duckhunter
08-15-2008, 02:03 PM
The real sad part of the deaths from setting poles in hot lines is that most of the cases it is "pilot error". Guys not covering up (poles, conductors, themselves),

Not putting the OCR in non-reclose.

Not grounding.

Simple things to do!

old lineman
08-15-2008, 08:05 PM
The real sad part of the deaths from setting poles in hot lines is that most of the cases it is "pilot error". Guys not covering up (poles, conductors, themselves),

Not putting the OCR in non-reclose.

Not grounding.

Simple things to do!

I'm not convinced that you are correct about the recloser placed in manual reclose mode. The power would still be on and if tripped it wouldn't return as normal. That would make it safe for a rescue but.
That being said the first initial contact could/would be sufficient to kill. There may/could be no second chance.
I think some of these guys working with reckless supervisors need to take a stand.
Eg. In about 1972-3 I was on a crew who was setting a fully treated pole between 13.8 conductors in the Bershires of Massachusetts. The foreman was from transmission and seemingly never worked near energized equipment.
I told him we needed cover up, he said NO.
I told him then we have to hanle the pole with ropes, he said NO.
I said if your that stupid count me out, he said fine sit over there and watch, I did.
The pole rolled around the boom and came up against the conductor. A lineman (also from transmission) was pushing hard on the pole and was hit in the chest and flung backwards knocking the foreman on his ass.
He ended up in the hospital with pin hole burns the length of his chest but survived.
By the way there was an instant grass fire where the pole rested on the ground.
The accident was predictable and preventable.
The odd thing is no one got crap over the accident. Boggles the mind.
Perhaps the message is, if you see something unsafe developing and you don't like it, speak up, if you can't stop it bow out. Perhaps enough of the crew will follow and the foreman will have no option but to change his/her strategy.
The Old Lineman
By the way the protection never tripped.

wtdoor67
08-15-2008, 08:29 PM
The last sentence of your post says a lot. The protection never tripped. Many folks, I think, believe that if the reclosers are disabled you will only get one shot. That's the way it works in theory etc. but the facts are that reclosers are not dependable at all in some systems.

My last place of employment contained a circuit that would regularly burn down 4/0 Cu. primary on a regular basis. This proved to me that the breaker wasn't working properly. This was even mentioned in a safety meeting, but the problem was never addressed.

By burning down I mean the Cu. would burn until it was in the clear. There would be no operations at all on the breaker at the sub.

To me, I'm surprised that the records of the most recent tests of a breaker are not made a part of the hold order. That way if the breaker fails to operate in the case of a mishap somebodies ass would be on the block.

Did they say even if those guys in Kansas had a disable on the 115?

wtdoor67
08-15-2008, 08:35 PM
Some of this makes me think of an old timer I met once who was a lineman during the Great Depression. He said when the crews left the showup to go to work there would always be at least one guy who would appear and just take his lunchbox and wait. He was hoping that someone would get hurt bad enough that day that he could get the man's job. Sad. Tough times back then.

mainline
08-17-2008, 10:06 AM
Reclosers are for the protection of equipment, not for your safety. You cannot rely on them to open as a part of your ppe. Cover up, clearances, and proper work methods are what is needed. The only thing a recloser will do is allow the rescue party to recover your corpse faster if you get tied into something. I am amazed at the number of burns and fatalities that result from the failure to follow basic safety rules. We can argue about crew compliments, company attitudes, etc., but until we follow the basic rules of insulate, and isolate we will continue to see fatalities. All of this shit is taught. If we actually do our jobs, teach proper methods, and look out for those learning from us this stuff would disappear. Rarely do we hear of a true accident on here. I think everybody on here agrees on this, we need to spread the word though. I think a lot of our discussions are preaching to the choir. Stay safe everyone.

wtdoor67
08-17-2008, 05:00 PM
Would you rather work on a circuit whose recloser did not work, or one whose recloser did work?

I know they are for the protection of equipment but the feeling that if you create a fire that will not go out, vs one that quickly goes out when it is at arms length is not a comfortable thought.

If we are only concerned about equipment, then why disable at all?

The last time I looked the OSHA rule for disabling reclosers was left to the discretion of the co. doing the work.

I thought for a long time it was mandatory. One day a guy broke out the OSHA rules on this subject. It stated that reclosers "may" be disabled, not "shall" be disabled. A big difference.

wtdoor67
08-17-2008, 05:02 PM
Would you rather work on a circuit whose recloser did not work, or one whose recloser did work?

I know they are for the protection of equipment but the feeling that if you create a fire that will not go out, vs one that quickly goes out when it is at arms length is not a comfortable thought.

If we are only concerned about equipment, then why disable at all?

The last time I looked the OSHA rule for disabling reclosers was left to the discretion of the co. doing the work.

I thought for a long time it was mandatory. One day a guy broke out the OSHA rules on this subject. It stated that reclosers "may" be disabled, not "shall" be disabled. A big difference.

I think if a co. has the ability to properly adjust reclosers so they work as advertised they should have to do so. I know relaying is an art as much as a science but there should be a happy medium.

old lineman
08-17-2008, 08:43 PM
I realize that a recloser is a sofisticated electronic piece of equipment compared to a fused cutout, but.
In reality they do the same thing. They keep the power on until there is a fault current high enough to take them out.
The fused disconnect won't reclose that's obvious but you should still place a tag on that pole/structure and notify control that work is ongoing.
All other crews must respect the 'work protection code' and not refuse.
It's puzzling why some folks think that a recloser on "hold off" provides any safety except as was plainly stated for body recovery.
As for the mandatory placement of the recloser in the "hold off" mode it's an operational decision that control and ultimately the engineering department have to make. A plethora of reasons are to be considered.
The reason for planning seems to rise to the top of this discussion.
The Old Lineman

wtdoor67
08-17-2008, 09:01 PM
I think a recloser that properly works via the relays is a good safety devise. I have seen lines knocked out with only a small blaze. This is better than one small blaze followed by 2 large blazes. I've heard all the body recovery malarkey. Most reclosers are programed I believe to open on what is termed an instantaneous followed by 2 longer cycles which are supposed to give fuses time to blow. If I have a choice I will choose one blaze.

I think the point I was trying to get across was the circuit we had of 4/0 copper that would get into fault and would not die. It would just keep burning until it had burned in the clear. It would then still be hot. If that is not an example of improper reclosers I don't know what it is. This was the sub. breaker that was refusing to open. I thought then and still do that something could be done about this and although mentioned in a safety meeting nothing was done. I think if someone were hurt on such a circuit that a good lawyer could write his own check. If it were not mentioned in a safety meeting it would not be so damning, but when there is paper notification of such a condition and it still goes unattended to then fault can be proven easily.

Pootnaigle
08-17-2008, 09:58 PM
I agree completely. Those breakers are programable to trip at a preset level of the programers choice.Anytime it allows the wire to burn into it needs attention. WE had one once that fed such a distance that at the end of the feeder there was no real fault current available. Line fuses, Transformer fuses would open under a fault condition but in every case the fuse would be melted not blown.A study found less than a hundred amps of fault current available at the tail end of the feeder. And when a transformer fuse would melt it took a spell and the voltage on that phase of primary would dip drastically all the way back to the sub.We chased our tail for months trying to figure out what was goin on Customers swore the lights went dim and stayed dim for several seconds if not a minute or two, there would be a rash of troublle calls followed by a Lites out call. Once we figured out what phase the litesout call was on sure nuff all the trouble calls were on the same phase. The solution was to construct a new sub on the far end of the troubled feeder and split up some of the load.

old lineman
08-18-2008, 08:31 AM
I always remember a discussion amongst the the line crew where they were close to a mutiny because they had read that the new high tech reclosers were able to react in about 3-4 cycles instead of up to 12 for the existing ones. It got so heated that they had to have answers.
An engineer from protection was brought in.
His quote always made me chuckle.
He said, "guys the difference between 4 cycles and 12 is rare and well done".
The critical thing to remember if you get hit by electricity the outcome always depends on circumstances.
Take all of your precautions beforehand because you can't beat the speed of light.
End of debate for me.
The Old Lineman

Yes they are programmable but after the initial adjustments and setting the circuit evolves and they are seldom readjusted. I bet that fully 85% need to be fine tuned and they won't be until they become a problem.

wtdoor67
08-18-2008, 09:26 AM
I guess we're beating this to death but I'm gonna put in some more 2 cents.

I think my beef is that companies should stay on top of their recloser and breaker work. I don't think they do.

I think if a crew were sent out to work on a circuit and the boss said, by the way the reclosers don't seem to work on that circuit and if you cause a fire it may not go out. I believe that following that would be a very interesting discussion.

Actually that is one reason I prefer stick work. At least the blaze is a distance from you. I also believe that linemen are not schooled as much as they should be on this subject.

Of course most engineers have cute remarks about such situations. If they have held the blaze in their hands I might respect them more. All boo boos don't wind up as rare or medium rare. Some wind up as a mild sun burn to a severe peeling and a trip to the burn center. I prefer the mild sun burn.

Relays etc. are rather technical in my mind. However if you have a circuit where it is unreliable on a regular basis I think crews should be informed of such and the tail board should contain such information. I believe most power companies would resist this line of thought as it puts them as a bit cupable.

Orgnizdlbr
08-18-2008, 08:17 PM
I think a recloser that properly works via the relays is a good safety devise. I have seen lines knocked out with only a small blaze. This is better than one small blaze followed by 2 large blazes. I've heard all the body recovery malarkey. Most reclosers are programed I believe to open on what is termed an instantaneous followed by 2 longer cycles which are supposed to give fuses time to blow. If I have a choice I will choose one blaze.

I think the point I was trying to get across was the circuit we had of 4/0 copper that would get into fault and would not die. It would just keep burning until it had burned in the clear. It would then still be hot. If that is not an example of improper reclosers I don't know what it is. This was the sub. breaker that was refusing to open. I thought then and still do that something could be done about this and although mentioned in a safety meeting nothing was done. I think if someone were hurt on such a circuit that a good lawyer could write his own check. If it were not mentioned in a safety meeting it would not be so damning, but when there is paper notification of such a condition and it still goes unattended to then fault can be proven easily.

Well, in the scenerio you describe the 4/0 cu could sit and burn all day and never trip the breaker if it is a high impedence fault. The breaker will only operate if the pickup amps on the relay are reached. On a high impedence fault the amps possibly may not reach the pickup value on the relay setting therefore it will burn all day. I generally like to have the reclosers set to instantaneous and non-reclose when the situation warrants. But dont get lulled into the thinking the recloser is there for your protection, it's there to protect equipment.

http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/td/dist/documents/highz.pdf

wtdoor67
08-18-2008, 09:08 PM
What equipment does it protect? The sub. transformers and assoc. equip?

The thing that intrigued me about the situation I described was that there were other circuits in the neighborhood of similar characteristics that seemed to operate alright. My reasoning was if you could make them operate satisfactorily, then why not the one that wouldn't lock out?

Chipdiamond
08-18-2008, 11:50 PM
We found that the older mechanical reclosers wouldn't lock out unless the fault was like real hugh but we have now been installing new electronic reclosers NU-Lec i think they are called which have all these computer settings which make them very sesitive to all types of faults even if the load gets to out of blance they can be set to trip to protect 3 phase motors.

mainline
08-19-2008, 07:35 PM
Wtdoor, I agree with you that a recloser should be put on one shot when you are preforming hot line work. That wasn't the intent of my comment. A recloser will open in many situations that will protect a worker in a hazardous situation. Its utility as a protective device should not be overstated however. I'm sure some of the people on here remember the thread I posted about the wire stringing incident I was involved in. With ground rod driven four feet in the ground a recloser on one shot manage to burn two of the tires off a tensioning trailer. I will never go to a ground rod again, but I will also never trust a recloser to open when it should. Stay safe brothers.

Orgnizdlbr
08-19-2008, 09:05 PM
Wtdoor, I agree with you that a recloser should be put on one shot when you are preforming hot line work. That wasn't the intent of my comment. A recloser will open in many situations that will protect a worker in a hazardous situation. Its utility as a protective device should not be overstated however. I'm sure some of the people on here remember the thread I posted about the wire stringing incident I was involved in. With ground rod driven four feet in the ground a recloser on one shot manage to burn two of the tires off a tensioning trailer. I will never go to a ground rod again, but I will also never trust a recloser to open when it should. Stay safe brothers.

I had exactly the same happen to me on a job.......burned the tires right off the tension machine, driven ground rod....thats called a high impedence fault. The the fault current doesnt rise to the level of the pickup value on the relay so there is no over current operation of the breaker........

wtdoor67
08-19-2008, 09:33 PM
I just wish I understood more about reclosers and breakers in order to have an intelligent understanding about them. I only have a basic understanding of them.


What I mean for example is if you had a circuit like the one I described and perhaps like you describe, if you broke it up with reclosers periodically here and there would that make it safer?

Orgnizdlbr
08-20-2008, 11:15 AM
I just wish I understood more about reclosers and breakers in order to have an intelligent understanding about them. I only have a basic understanding of them.


What I mean for example is if you had a circuit like the one I described and perhaps like you describe, if you broke it up with reclosers periodically here and there would that make it safer?

I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, an expert on relays or reclosures. There are new relays that seem to be much more sophisticated that the electromechanical devices we have been working with forever. Adding more polemounted reclosers would not, IMHO, make the circuit any safer to work on.

The key with breaker operation is the pickup amp value must be met for the breaker to operate. Foe example, on a 12.5 circuit with pickups amps set at 1040 amps, the current flow would need to reach 1040 before the breaker would trip on an overcurrent situation. If the recosure is set to instantaneous and the reclosure set to non reclose, once the amps are met the breaker, in theory, opens and does not reclose.

On a high impedene fault, where the pickup amps are not reached, the wire will burn all day. Reclosures would not have any effect on whether the breaker would operate, the breaker would stay in doing its job as if the current was normal load.

As I said, I'm a lineman and no an expert on reclosures and relays, this is my basic understanding of relays and breaker operation. If I,m wrong let me know.

loodvig
05-11-2009, 06:46 AM
Company faces fines in man's death
By Paul Tennant
ptennant@eagletribune.com


May 11, 2009 02:51 am



HAVERHILL — The Methuen employer of a power line worker who died after being shocked while working on Boardman Street last summer has been cited and fined more than $11,000 by the Occupational Health and Safety Administration.

Harlan Electrical Co. of Methuen is contesting the finding, according to OSHA spokesman Ted Fitzgerald. The company could not be reached for comment.

John Kaye, 52, of Hingham, who worked for Harlan, came into contact with wires July 7 while he was in a bucket extended from a truck. He died July 30.

OSHA cited Harlan Electrical on Dec. 22 for three serious violations of the agency's safety standards, following an inspection prompted by the fatal accident.

The company filed a notice of contest Jan. 15 and the matter is now in litigation. Unless the lawyers for OSHA and Harlan reach an agreement, the case will go to a hearing before an administrative law judge from the OSHA Review Commission, Fitzgerald said.

The citations pertain to electrical exposure, lack of protective insulation, untested electrical protective equipment and electrical work practices, according to Fitzgerald. Total proposed penalties amount to $11,550.

"A serious citation is issued when there is substantial probability that death or serious physical harm could result from a hazard about which the employer knew or should have known," Fitzgerald said.

Juliette Zivic, of Rye, N.H., Kaye's sister, said the family will file a wrongful death lawsuit. Kaye did not have a wife or children.

Kaye was treated at Merrimack Valley Hospital, then transferred to Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston two days later, according to his sister.

He was in a coma and on a respirator and it appeared he suffered brain damage from the shock, Zivic said.

The accident happened at around 12:40 p.m. on a Monday. A nurse who lives on Paula Lane, just a short distance away from the scene, happened to be driving by when she saw the police cars and other emergency vehicles.

Cyndi Lou Brignac said it became a group effort — she supervised as police Officer Penny Portalla gave the victim CPR. A worker from the nearby Baker-Katz Nursing Home provided them with a defibrillator — a device that jolts the heart with electric current to restore a heartbeat.

Harlan was working as a subcontractor for National Grid, which was replacing utility poles at the time of the accident.

BigClive
05-11-2009, 09:47 AM
As a recap, this was the awful accident where a linemans heart was affected by a shock while setting a pole. The crew didn't have a defibrillator to knock it back into sync, but a nurse ran to a nearby hospital and ran back with a defib unit. Although they managed to resync the guys heart with it, it was too late and he suffered brain damage through the loss of blood flow to the brain before the treatment was administered. He survived in a vegetative state in a hospital for a while before his family had to make the decision to turn off the life support machine.

If an AED (Automatic External Defibrillator) had been available on site immediately then this thread would probably never have existed and the family would never have had to turn off their sons/fathers life support machine.

If the company does get fined I wonder how many AEDs that would have bought for their crews. I wonder if they'll even care.