Apprentice Killed And 2 Burned

[west coast hand]

A apprentice was killed 2 days ago in kansas they were setting a pole under a 115kv line when the pole made contact with the 115 and killed 1 apprentice and burned a journeyman and another apprentice both where mediflighted and are in bad condition thats all i know right now i will find out more next week

[far from finished]

Does anyone know what company it was?

[west coast hand]

Par Electric

[wtdoor67]

Yeah, I read about it. One killed, one treated and released, and one still being treated.

Must have been a distribution crew setting an underbuild pole or something. Sort of a small crew (if it was only 3 men) to be setting a pole in a 115 KV line.

[Special ED]

My prayers go out to the fallen and injureds families.

What was the deal where the pole had to be so close to the 115Kv? Minimum approach distances?? Were they followed or even known? In my own humble opinion this along with most of the accidents posted here is just ignorant mistakes gone bad.

Underbuild or not the pole should have never breached the minimum approach distance unless the 115Kv was dead and grounded so shit like this don't happen. Man this shit pisses me off.

[west coast hand]

turns out they where suppost to have a outage on the 115 but couldn't get the outage and set the pole anyway it was a 4 man crew forman, jl and 2 apps it was a distro pole 50 class 4 it made contact with the 115 the guys on the ground had hotgloves on class 2 might aswell had none on at all,the forman should be put in jail for along time it could have been prevented there are to many people job scared afraid to say f**k that its unsafe we are not doing it period. stay safe watch your back and your brothers aswell

[BigClive]

Let's not speculate, this forum is used by lawyers.
The most important thing in this case is why they couldn't get an outage. Was it going to cost them money?

[Special ED]

Cost of switching out a 115Kv circuit versus the costs of lawyers and benifets of getting men killed. That should not be a factor. Get the outage do it safe and do it right or don't do it at all.

I'd be the first to tell a forman or super their dicks loose if they think I'm gonna risk my life for them to complete a job buy cutting corners. Man this crap gets under my skin.

[Chazz2771]

A few bad decisions cost a man his life. My prayers go out to his friends, family, and close brothers. No reason for something like this to happen. Is convenience or some profit really worth someone's life?

[woody]

My condolences to the dear departed apprentice and his family, may god shine his light our way with him leading the way...because i'm outta excuses! This CRAP burns me real BAD! How is it that the app dies?????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????? WTF>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Somebody needs to stand tall and take care of BUSINESS...Behind the truck or in front of the truck or hell ON THE RTW! There nothing until we mold them into LINEMAN. KILLING THEM DOESNT MAKE OUR TRADE BETTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WTF.....woody

[Meat]

Makes me mad too!There's enough stuff that can happen that's unforseen.When its right there staring back at you and it still happens.I don't get it.Lets get it together brothers.RIP apprentice.

[cololinehand]

Seems Par has had more than their "share" of accidents of late. Here in CO an ape was burned when he installed a fuse in a hot SC. Last I heard he had lost a toe and was still undergoing rehab.

Not sure what's going on in the minds of our brothers but I think one not only has to think about what they are doing but who counts on them to come home at night the same as they left that morning.

[woody]

In the past decade over 600 lineman have died or been injuried on the job. This does'nt count apps, operators, grunts. Worst case scenario has always been an apprentice hurt or worst killed on the job....THIS was ALWAYS the BIGGEST concern for all LINEMAN on the job! Teach em right ...be tough...be fair...never forget that everybody learns and retain things in their own time. Never expect them to be like you...SHIT does this sound familar...kinda like family? They will do what you tell them...YOUR RESPONSIBLE TO TEACH EM THE RIGHT WAY! Everytime i read these kinda posts it kills me...man i'm tired of seeing this bullshit happening out on the RTW!!! woody

[cololinehand]

The crew was setting a pole fully framed with a ground run the on the pole. The 12 kv was energized and the 34 kv over build was de-energized and grounded. The 115 line was running parallel to the 12 and 34 kv and the pole with only the gloved up 2nd step got into the 115 line. The 2nd step's shoulder was in contact with the ground wire and we all know what happened.

The foreman has 30 years in, the JL had 10. The super down was terminated.

C

[west coast hand]

Heard today that the superintendent,gf,forman and jl where all fired and the family is pressing charges on the forman. I saw the pics from the accident today there was no cover on the energized 12kv you can see from the pics the 115kv is only maybe 50 from the ground. It makes me sick

[Stinger]

If what westcoast hand states is the actual facts, this was not an accident, it was crimnal malfesance by the foreman and his bosses. I hope he goes to jail. The JL had a duty to stand up to the foreman and tell him the job was unsafe when they were tailboarding the job. Woody is right, this crap has got to end. We as JL's are the ones that need to draw the line in the sand to protect ourselves and the young ones that are still learning and don't know all the hazzards of the job.

[Fiberglass Cowboy]

The PAR crew was working in Kansas, for Westar energy, an I.O.U. there. Yes they were setting a pole underneath energized transmission line. But they had been told and re-assured by the ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT from WESTAR ENERGY that there would be plenty of clearance between the pole being set and the 115kv line. Now apparently there wasn't, was there? Some DUMBFU(K ENGINEER or CONSTRUCTION COORDINATOR told them by their measurements they would be fine. The crew trusted them, and set the pole. HOW THE FU(K WOULD THE CREW KNOW ANY BETTER UNTIL THE POLE WAS IN THE AIR ??? The jouneyman on that crew had more experience than what was stated. He has not worked at PAR for numerous years, but has been a LINEMAN for numerous years. I work with 2 people that used to work with him, AND i have a good friend at PAR that has worked with him in the past. I have only heard good things about him. He was running the line truck when the pole got away from the apprentice. Initially, the pole got too close and an arc jumped over to the pole, causing the app to get hung up on the ground. It all went downhill from there. The lineman jumped off of the line (digger) truck and ran over to the app trying to tackle him off the pole, WITH DISREGARD FOR HIS OWN LIFE. That is how the LINEMAN got burned. Nobody meant to get anyone hurt, obviously. The WHOLE thing was a bad deal, JUST AS EVERY ACCIDENT I HAVE READ ABOUT INVOLVING ANY LINE CREW IS.
This particular accident was discussed at my showup, as two of our workers previously worked with this man. Also MY CREW IS HAVING THE SAME TROUBLE, RIGHT NOW. We are building new 12 Kv feeder line that is running parallel underneath a 161 Kv and a 69 Kv line that run side by side. We had to set a pole in between them. We were told the same thing. PLENTY OF CLEARANCE, SHOULD HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT. The IDIOT CONSTRUCTION COORDINATOR WAS WRONG. Plus he LIED !!!! He said he had measured our ground clearance,when he had in fact,not. What the FU(KING retard did do, is contact the TRANSMISSION DEPARTMENT and asked them how high the phases were there. They gave him an ESTIMATED HEIGHT on how high the phases were at THE NEAREST STRUCTURES. NOT MIDSPAN, WHERE WE WERE CROSSING UNDER. After getting a CAUTION (NON RE-CLOSE) PLACED ON BOTH THE 161KV & 69KV, WE SET THE POLE. Then RIGHT afterwards dicovered that our crossarm was level or perhaps above the 69kv,which had been built in the 1940's,on 55' 2-pole structures. Not much clearance midspan. WE HAD BEEN LIED TO BY THE COMPANY!!!! Then the transmission department got involved, and told us that it costs about $15,000 per structure to be changed out, after doing a true on-sight measurment, and that we should just cut 4' foot off the top of the pole and reframe it. After those FU(KING IDIOTS LEFT, we pulled the pole straight up out of the ground and cut 4' foot off and re-set it. Then it was re-measured and it was found to still be too close. Now we have to wait to pull wire in to get a decision whether or not to change the structure out or go underground with the feeder for a few spans. They will be changing out structures in the near future, as there will be a new substation built in 3-4 years ,so we're wondering why they don't just do it now,to give us clearance. The job is spilt up into 2 different conductor sizes, for the future sub, planning for the future with the distribution already but not wanting to "pony-up" the doe for the transmission, so make sense out of that.

Some of you FU(KERS out there need not JUMP THE GUN and be QUICK TO POINT THE FINGER AT OUR UNION BROTHERS. IT IS THE UTILITY COMPANY THAT NEEDS TO BE SUED, AND THE ENGINEER THAT NEEDS TO BE FIRED FOR NOT DOING HIS JOB PROPERLY, RESULTING IN INJURIES AND DEATH. It was NOT PAR'S responsibilty to measure the clearance, just as it is not their responsibility to RE-ENGINEER a job or put a 115Kv line on NON-RECLOSE or get it switched out. That was ALL 100% THE UTILITY COMPANIES FAULT.

IF SOME OF YOU CAN'T SEE THAT THAN YOU'RE A COMPANY COCKSUCKER. YEAH, SWALLOW YOUR BOSSES COCK SOMEMORE, YOU FU(KING FAGGOTS. GAUGHHHHLAUGHHH LALALALALALAUGHHHH !

[LINEHND]

If a consruction coordinator told you to jump off a cliff it's fine, would you listen to that too. Check things out for yourself.

[Fiberglass Cowboy]

Construction coordinators are UNION at my shop, and they better be damned well able to perform their job like professionals. I don't carry around a measuring extendo on my truck period, let alone one rated for transmission voltages, which means the top section would be at least 6'-8' long, as it is the only section on an extendo (telescoping hotstick) that has to pass the leakage test.

Do you LINEHND ??? Ok then.

I don't like re-engineering jobs, and changing them up, as none of us do, although it happens quite often at my shop. We have to and we know that. If YOU are a UTILITY LINEMAN, it comes with the territory. Do you know why our company in the past liked CONTRACTORS so much? They never ARGUE with an engineer or construction coordinator, and they build the line EXACTLY to SPEC, no questions asked. No matter how fu(ked up the job was. The CONTRACTORS have got to be thinking the UTILITY linemen are a bunch of retards. But we're not. I think alot of them don't realize we re-do alot of jobs drawn up by COLLEGE PUKES, and do it OUR WAY ANYWAYS, which means it will be easier and safer for our fellow linemen to work on in the future. They are not allowed to, only their G.F. COULD SAY SOMETHING,WHICH USUALLY DOESN'T HAPPEN, which might be a disadvantage for them.

STAY SAFE OUT THERE EVERYONE, 0 DEATHS AND 0 ACCIDENTS IS A GREAT NUMBER. :cool:

[LINEHND]

All I am saying cowboy is if it don't look right check stuff out yourself and make your own decision. I don't know what they were told about the height of the 115kv, or the situation and it is easy to say stuff afterwards. And you can sure measure the height of a line without a hotstick, get eye level and throw down a 100 ft tape or a rope and measure that. Not much else you can say.

[old lineman]

You know Fiberglass Cowboy you could have said everything you said without all of the curse words. For the most part your correct BUT.
We are all upset when we read such stupidity and hurt and waste. The fact of the matter is you are ultimately responsible for yourself and just because some slacker says, "ahh go ahead you can do it" does not mean that you throw your you mind into neutral and blindly plunge ahead.
I was always taught to 'measure twice and cut once'.
First of all 10 feet of clearance up to 150 kv. is a minimum clearance for this type of work as there can always be an optical illusion when trying to judge from the ground.
As for the responsibility of the immediate supervisor.
He/she is always held responsible because he as they say, he's WHERE THE RUBBER MEETS THE ROAD.
Of course in these cases shit flows up hill as it should. Only when everyone up hill from the worker realizes if they screw up they can be charged, fined, jailed, etc. will they measure and not just eyeball.
The Old Lineman

[wtdoor67]

The proper way to set poles in such a way is with no one touching the pole until it is down in the hole. I have been on a crew several times that set poles in 138.

However I think a 4 man crew is far to small to be setting poles in such a situation. They need to rethink their procedures.

We used a 7 man crew. I think that is the optimum crew size for such an undertaking.

Here's how it happened. One operator running the digger. 2 men on the butt tagging with clean hot line rope. 2 men with hot line rope tagging the top of the pole. The foreman standing in line and signaling the operator and if need be the hands. The pole was raised in this manner until the operator was able to get it in the pole claws. Then of course lowered into the hole. Once down it was canted and plumbed. We did well over a hundred poles in a year and never even came close to contact.

Trying to handle a butt in such a voltage with rubber distribution gloves tells me the foreman (no matter how good a hand he is) hasn't done this particular thing much.

The only thing that could have happened to us was step potential in case of an accidental bump.

Subject change. Eric you are such a potty mouth. Shame on you. You talk like a nasty old lineman. Reminds me of a persnickety hand I worked around once. He was sent out one day with some guys and when he got in he complained. "All they wanted to talk about was p-ssy." We had a good laugh over that.

[Fiberglass Cowboy]

we had larger crews, and i think in the future we will. When we set our pole betweens the 2 transmission circuits a few weeks back, we set our truck further back and stung the fiberglass 3rd stage all the way out, and my foremen stood it up and grabbed it all from the controls with no one on the butt. We had it hooked butt-heavy enough that we knew it would work. Plus, what good are my class 2 rubber gloves against 161 KV ? So we just stayed off of it altogether.

3 guys total on our crew that day. Foreman (leadman), journeyman (me) and an apprentice. We our hoping that our crews will get bigger after our apprentices turn out and hopefully more journeymen apply here for work. Personally i would rather we had 4 men instead of 3 or 2 on a daily basis.

Danny, i have seen poles tagged out with rope before, maybe 1 tag line on the butt of the pole, but not the way you described. It does make more sense though, to have it tagged out from different directions to have positive control. I'll have to remember that one.

Sorry 'bout the language. I don't always mean to get upset,though it happens. Have a good holiday weekend.
Now if you'll excuse me, i've got more BEER to drink. :cool:

[wtdoor67]

Eric, what they need to do on setting poles in transmission voltages is to simply combine 2 crews. This type of work is not routine for a 3 or 4 man crew. Make the senior foreman in charge.

The 10 foot rule is really not correct. I have heard of it before. If you will consider that the pole sets there year in and out closer that that it makes no sense.

We just took it slow and made sure we didn't get the new pole any closer that the existing pole. With a knowledgeable foreman standing in line he can guide the operator raising the pole so there is very little hazard at all. I always considered routine rubber glove work on distribution more hazardous.

This was a high line hot stick crew and we actually didn't have a set of rubber gloves on the crew.

[old lineman]

Nice to see a valid discussion about very important topic. I knew you guys could be civil if you wanted to be.
We have a beautiful language let's show how smart we are and use as it was intended.

Two points;
I'm sure that most of you know that cant hooks and peevee's can be purchased with fiberglass handles. Seems let a good purchase to me.

Remember that no matter how clean your ropes are they can become conductive rapidly in humidity and instantly if it lays on the ground.
(We weren't even allowed to bare hand the 735kv. line on cloudy day because of humidity in the air).

The other point is that in many utilities the bean counters have taken over and eliminated pole claws on the RBD's. Perhaps this type of work should be reserved for only RBD's equipped with pole claws.

Usually the line foremen have some say in what options should the trucks come with. It's time to get back to basics.
The Old Lineman

[wtdoor67]

I can't clean up Eric's potty mouth. He won't stay out of the beer.

[old lineman]

I can't clean up Eric's potty mouth. He won't stay out of the beer.


This is only my opinion but to be a good lineman you have to be a cut above the average joe out there.
To degrade our status with gutter talk brings us all down, if we want to portray our trade as a cut above then we have to appear as good citizens who are genuine and really concerned about our brothers.
Foul language in the field is one thing (and I seen and done my share) but it has no place here.
The Old Lineman

[wtdoor67]

I'm sorry Eric has no class. The military just ruined that lad.

[PSE Lineman]

How come no one has mentioned the pole ground? What about cover for the dist? Why would ANYONE raise a pole into anything over 240 volts with a conductor down to the man holding onto the butt of the pole? In the 80's an ape was killed in the 12.5 in Oak Harbor Washington with a pole ground all the way up. The pole got away from him and the butt plate got him in the chest and the rest is history. From that point forward, NO ONE was allowed to put a pole ground all the way up setting poles in the hot distribution. I know it saves time and time is money, but not at the expense of anyones life. Next i'd like to differ from fiber boy about who is responsible. Everyone of us on this site is directly responsible for the things we do out in the field. How can you even think some desk jocky is at fault for a crew sticking a pole into the hot 115 kv? I don't give a rats ass who said what about the job before anyone got there to set a pole. It rests squarly on the shoulders of EVERYONE on the crew. THAT is where "the rubber meets the road", even the grunt needs to speak up if he thinks something hasn't been talked about. It is really a sad state of affairs when we read about anyone getting killed on this site over and over. Most of these "accidents" were preventable. This has to stop. All of us Journeymen out there need to take the time and recall all these deaths and use them as a tool to teach the apes a lesson. From the underground to the overhead it is all something we need to watch out for while we work day in and day out. No short cuts. And another thing. If you need more men, simply ask for more equipment. They HAVE to come with a driver to get them to the jobsite.....

[Fiberglass Cowboy]

You can't "arm-chair quarterback" every situation out there. Everyone on here is a "Monday morning quaterback" on everything, "Oh, .... I would have done this, Or I would have done that..... BLAH BLAH BLAH." I've heard it all from all different kinds of people. They were told they had 7'-8' of clearance out to the side and 8'-10' clearance below. I don't know about a ground wire. Not every pole set has a ground wire, not even on GROUND WYE systems. Hell it could have been a DELTA system on the distribtuion side, with no pole-top equipment, and no need for a ground wire. Or maybe there was. I don't know. We mostly run GROUND WYE systems out here where i live, but that doesn't mean they are everywhere. Nobody expects an accident. Plan for the best, but be ready to expect the worst. I never planned to get BLOWN UP, BY A 120 mm MORTAR ROUND OR A 57mm RPG, SPLICING CABLE OUT NEXT TO THE RUNWAYS OF BAGHDAD,IRAQ, TO GET POWER TO THE FUELING CHECKPOINTS; but it could HAVE EASILY HAPPENED. I'm not sure what the series of events were that day leading up to the accident, but there's no need to keep "pouring salt into an open wound." I'm sure everyone involved feels bad enough about what happened. Everyone here is quick to point the finger and give the blame, but no one thinks that they could ever be thrown it that situation. If this was an accident where human error was blatenly obvious, then i'm sure PAR, ELECTRIC INC. will later release their findings, hopefully to better help us understand what exactly happened and how it could have been prevented, like my company does to their workers. (KCP&L)

In the mean time, i don't know you and i don't disrespect you, so please don't disrespect me. Fiberglass as in the fiberglass boom on a bucket truck and cowboy as in the lineman operating it. It's just a simple nick name, such as everyone has on here. I am not fiber boy, i'm not some kid working for the phone company, I am an Electric Lineman, a Journeyman Lineman, a husband and a father of 3 boys, and an Operation Iraqi Freedom Veteran with 12 years enlisted (so far) of good service to these United States, Sir. I've been around the world 3 times during my enlistment, and been to about 20-25 different countries. I believe i've earned my rights, as much as anyone else on here. :cool:

Eric Elder, Journeyman Lineman, KCP&L, IBEW Local# 1464

SGT. Eric J. Elder, MOS 21 Quebec, Powerline Distribution Specialist,
United States Army Reserve

[wtdoor67]

I was taught, and always did ground poles while setting them in primary. The older creosote poles were reckoned to be a 90% ground without a wire on them.

The only pole covers I have ever used were only good for about 46 KV. There maybe some sort of coverup used now that is for higher voltages, I don't know. I haven't experienced them.

The best insulation for setting poles in transmission lines was a poly tag rope. A clean, dry poly rope is supposed to be a super insulator. I have dragged poly and nylon ropes all over from 345 KV on down and never had any mishap. I don't know if nylon is still approved for this but I'm sure poly is. AB Chance or Hastings would surely have some recommendations on this.

[PSE Lineman]

Yes sir, Mr Cowboy. My whole point was to correct you trying to blame someone else away from the jobsite for something that happened ON the jobsite! There is no way in gods green earth that the argument would hold water. We can all arm chair with the best of them but lets put the blame where it belongs, not on some office puke telling lies and throwing pole steaks out the window when it's raining. Rethink your position on where the blame should go in this instance. I want what you want, to go home every night with all my fingers and toes and we all are supossed to learn from mistakes or they will all have died in vain. As for pole grounds, why take that chance? I've done it too, but now i know better. There is a difference between an accident and willful act of doing something that is taking a chance that ends in tragady. If you gamble you have to be prepared to lose. I am in NO WAY saying that is what happened here. I'm just ranting with random thoughts about things that could prevent the same thing from happening to someone else in the future.

[wtdoor67]

No matter the outrage about people who sometimes set you up for a screwup, the final decision about doing something a certain way is ultimately the foreman and the crew's decision.

I worked once on a traveling crew once. We were a foreman, 2 Journeymen and a trucky. We had handled some fairly challenging stick jobs with good results. Our supt. (not the sharpest knife) thought we were the berries.

My foreman called me once and said. You won't believe what they want us to do. Our supt. and the local dist supt. had decided that we could cut deadends and install a switch on a 230 KV line. This would have been on a wood tangent structure, the wire was 954 mcm, and this was expected to be done hot.

My foreman said he asked our supt. How the hell do you expect us to do this? The supt. said. Well you've always been able to handle everything else we've asked you to do.

The local dist. supt. said one of his crews would assist us. My foreman said. Well you let your boys do the first phase and we'll do the rest. Needless to say the "hot" plan was scrapped and the work was done de-energized.

I have been in on several situations where management said. You should be able to do such and such and the crews just said bullshit.

Now and then you will have a foreman who is trying to make a showing. When the crew makeup is such that a combination of maybe junior people and such a foreman then such things as disasters may happen. Sometimes people are bullied into doing things that common sense tells them not to. Sorta like peer pressure.

This kinda leads to another topic. My opinion that first line management of linecrews should always be derived from former linemen. Having a good knowledgeable supt. is sure a plus. They're hard to find, or at least hard to convince to take the job. I have known a very few that when the paperwork crossed his desk he knew almost the difficulty of the job and would go and have a look at those he thought needed examination. Knowing the capabilities of each crew he would assign these jobs to the crew he thought most able. He also would sometimes take the crew to the job and go over it with them in order to make sure they understood everything and of course would point out all hazards and would recall doing a similar job and give the methods he used while still on a crew. A good supt. is very rare. Too much politics in those jobs sometimes.