whats the Norm for your company?

[Pootnaigle]

Assume you were dispatched to a lights out call and found a line fuse on a lateral open. would you patrol it from one end to the other before refusing and trying it? Further assume that it ran thru terrain that was inacessable by truck(alleys or right of ways) would you shoot it first or patrol it?

I know its not always convienent to patrol a line and sometimes given the equippment at hand its downright impossible. I just wanna know what your practice is. I would also like to know if a switching order is required before closing a lateral fuse.

[heelwinch]

We are supposed to patrol it first before re-fusing. But like you said it aint always that simple.
yes we are required to a have switching order...our systems somewhat overlap so it's all good, hate to see one of our own get eatin up for something stupid .

[lewy]

We have to let our system know why it opened if we can. We will do our best to patrol what we can , if parts of the line are not accessible it would not always be patrolled. We would not be issued a switching order ,but we would inform our system operator before we closed the switch.

[Pootnaigle]

I am asking this due to a fatality that I understand happened last week. The line in question ran thru and fed an oilfield. I dont have many details but I understand a serviceman was dispatched on a partial power call and at the same time an oil company called their own contractor to pick up a downed wire. Neither knew the other was involved. The svc man found and refused an open lateral fuse. Unfortunately an apprentice for the oil field contractor was apparently on the line., with no protective equippment. He was only 21 yrs old and now he is no more. The line in question could only have been partially patroled using a truck. I feel sorry for both the young man and the svc man that closed in the fuse.( switching orders are not mandatory on laterals at this utility) Not that that wouldhave changed the outcome. The contractor should have isolated from the line, used ground chains or at least wore rubber gloves. Apparently they did none of the above.This particular "contractor" is a very small outfit that has ancient equippment and honestly I dont think they have any Linemen........ Rather they have several electricians that will do work out of a bucket truck.
I guess this just serves as an unfortunate example of how things can go south in the blink of an eye for all concerned.

[MI-Lineman]

We confirm the LCP open with dispatch and then patrol. A "qualified" journeyman can only foot patrol (WHICH IS HOW IT SHOULD BE!) and most of us wont except someone else like a supervisor or bird dog running out roadside lines (WHICH AGAIN IS HOW IT SHOULD BE!). After correcting the problem (if any found) we then call in to dispatch for permission to close and they confirm we are the only ones out there (WHICH DOESN'T ALWAYS WORK!:mad:) and then we close.

Just a week or so ago a crew and supervisor sent out of town to a wind storm patrolled a line from a blown fuse to the next LCP which was closed and ASSUMED:confused: the problem couldn't be past it. They called in and dispatch said they were clear to close and they closed into a couple of other out-a-town crews repairing down lines!:eek: Luckily no one got hurt but for some reason our so called company instructors don't adamantly teach not to trust OCR's and fuses to do their job! DUMB!!! JUST PLANE DUMB!!!

A fuse or other line device is NOT THERE FOR YOUR SAFETY, JUST THE EQUIPMENT!!:cool:

[lineman1010]

i work for a contractor so we would only run into this on storm but what we would usally do is protrol the whole line first find the problem if there is one. then we would isolate the lateral and test and ground on both ends. and fix the problem, make sure everyone is down and in the clear and remove our grounds and heat it back up. we would do all our work in rubber gloves. we always have a lineman or forman protrol the line never a bird dog, when we go out on storm we get alot of bird dogs who know nothing about linework but they think they do, i wouldnt close something in until i protrolled it or someone on my crew that i trusted protrolled it. i have worked for a few different contrators and worked alot of storms for different utilities, not every untility would require us to ground the line its up to the crew if they wanted to, but if we dont ground the line we still go and isolate the lateral either by taken the high side tap out of the cut out or by taken the whole cut out off line and taking the cut out door with us and putting up some sort of do not operate tag on the pole, because everyone who has worked a storm knows that some times dispatch screws up and sends more then one crew to the same job. our union rules are to always wear rubber gloves even when grounds are applied, and i agree with that rule a 100%. even if we are working a storm with a utility that allows leathers after it is isolated tested and grounded. we have to abide to who ever has the safer standers.



i am sorry to hear about what happened, for the man who lost his life and for the service guy.


did the oil field own the line or did the utility own the line, if the utility owned the line shouldnt they have been notified that a contractor was working on their property, and if the oil field owned the line wouldnt there be some type of equipment either primary meetering or something else on the lateral.

i know u dont have all the details, but if u find out mroe info about this will you post it

[Highplains Drifter]

I hope you guys will even go farther than a line fuse, I’d hope before you reenergize a house service or throw a meter in that you have checked that no poor narrowback is working in side the house or business.

[MI-Lineman]

I hope you guys will even go farther than a line fuse, I’d hope before you reenergize a house service or throw a meter in that you have checked that no poor narrowback is working in side the house or business.

Amen brother!!!!!!!

[dvrdwn]

we are required to patrol the line,, by a lineman or almost qualified apprentice before closeing any blown fuse, but are not required to obtain a switching order to close a branchline fuse, but we do notify dispatch what we found if anything before closeing and he would know if any other employee is in the area and ask if all clear. Then we patrol it again before closeing

[T-Man]

As a dispatcher in a previous life durning storm restoration if a crew found a fuse blown usually our crews would call me and give me the location and that
they made repairs and patrolled the section clear and ask if they can close. I would ask to be sure, '"did they patrol it clear" and check my desk if the line may be on one shot for another crew then give them the go ahead. If they needed gloving grounds those they apply on their own. Rubber Gloves are worn during all storm work.

[topgroove]

I've been in this situation a thousand times. You try and patrol the line and see what caused the line fuse to clear but many times you run into locked gates and get the binoculers out. theirs always gonna be the times where looking at each section of line simply is'nt possible. My condolences to the mans family and prayers go out to the troubleman that closed the fuse.

[Pootnaigle]

Like I said before I dont know the particulars. He may have been working on secondary that was re energized when the fuse was closed in. I do Know that it was in an oilfield so the likelyhood of it being at least 480 seems plauseable to me. The Problem here is that the utility and the oil field people didnt interact and the contractor made no attempt to isolate themselves from the source.Regardless of the details its a crying shame that this happened. It will forever scar both the family of the deceased and the troubleman.

[MI-Lineman]

I've been in this situation a thousand times. You try and patrol the line and see what caused the line fuse to clear but many times you run into locked gates and get the binoculers out. theirs always gonna be the times where looking at each section of line simply is'nt possible. My condolences to the mans family and prayers go out to the troubleman that closed the fuse.

There should never be a time were you close in a device without looking at everything first!:eek: How do you know what's on the other side of that locked gate? I here ya though, deep right-of-way, swamps, locked gates...cut a jumper and the customer will call in eventually and I'm sure they'll be waiting for you with a key.:D

[Pootnaigle]

The general public is repeadily warned to stay away from power lines downed or otherwise. An electrical contractor however is a whole nuther story. One would reasonably expect them to take the necessary steps to safegard themselves. I really have some mixed emotions about this particular accident and who should shoulder the blame.
I know that the location here was approximately 25 miles away from the servicemans normal territory, and there were no residential customers located in the oil field( may have been one or two on the outside where the line cameback onto the highway.) I can truely simpathize with the serviceman as he was performing the samejob under the same conditions that I retired from.And but for the grace of God that could have been me closing that fuse. Yes I would have attempted to look at the line first but I know from experience theres a lot of it that cant be patrolled in a service bucket. Theres several miles of this line running thru that oilfield, some acessable n some not. I cant help but wonder if a second serviceman may have been useful in patrolling ( one guy start walkin and the other drive around to the next road crossing, park the truck and start walking. When the first guy comes out to the truck he leapfrogs to the next roadcrossing and so forth)
Dont really matter now the damage has been done I spoze the question is what do we learn from this, and how do we prevent it from recurring?

[Koga]

Under our rules you patrol it first, Also you do not have to have a switchin order to close a fused lateral anymore like we use to. For that reason before patrol begins I will take the barrel sown and hang it at the bottom of the pole with an orange flag and tag it open. I have had a service man close one in on me before with just a tag hangin on the pole, but thats a whole other story. Also our rules now state once a downed span is found we are not allowed within 2 spans of it untill a clearance is wriote up and the pole is tagged ,flagged and grounds have been installed. Once the work is completed all grounds removed and the writtin clearance released, we can remove the flag , tags and close it in when we know everyone is in the clear and accounted for.

Koga

[MI-Lineman]

The general public is repeadily warned to stay away from power lines downed or otherwise. An electrical contractor however is a whole nuther story. One would reasonably expect them to take the necessary steps to safegard themselves. I really have some mixed emotions about this particular accident and who should shoulder the blame.
I know that the location here was approximately 25 miles away from the servicemans normal territory, and there were no residential customers located in the oil field( may have been one or two on the outside where the line cameback onto the highway.) I can truely simpathize with the serviceman as he was performing the samejob under the same conditions that I retired from.And but for the grace of God that could have been me closing that fuse. Yes I would have attempted to look at the line first but I know from experience theres a lot of it that cant be patrolled in a service bucket. Theres several miles of this line running thru that oilfield, some acessable n some not. I cant help but wonder if a second serviceman may have been useful in patrolling ( one guy start walkin and the other drive around to the next road crossing, park the truck and start walking. When the first guy comes out to the truck he leapfrogs to the next roadcrossing and so forth)
Dont really matter now the damage has been done I spoze the question is what do we learn from this, and how do we prevent it from recurring?

If it was the power companies equipment there shouldn't be a customers contractor handling it? Sounds like there should be a better isolating point or something between the companies equipment and the oil fields or customer. If so the customer should have a policy of isolating or protection? We don't have vast oil fields up here so I'm not sure I understand what the situation is?

[lewy]

When the question was first asked I thought you more concerned about closing in on the public. I would like to hope that people are following there work protection code before handling any down conductor, which I would think would involve some form of tagging at the open switch or switches & proper grounding. Up here we have a work protection code that approx 90% of the province uses & we can not handle isolated conductors They either have to be hot or grounded.

[climbsomemore]

as a training concept and vauge company policy...

We were to assume one fault once we found it on patrol and try it.

In practice...just about everyone I worked with would ride the line all the way...

Consumers Energy in Michigan.... they have a lot of 46 kv subtransmission and a standing order for their 'dispactchers'... they will try the line by SCADA after a set period of time (30 minutes if I remember right)...even if your on the radio or cell phone telling them your standing next to the wire on the ground.

Near Midland MI a few years ago a Consumers crew was working a no lights call on some distribution. I dont think they ever really found the source and assumed the source was open as most of the little town was dead.

The 46kv had tripped just outside of town and dumped the whole area. The distribution wire down call was a coincidence.

Transmisson closed the 46 and the distribution came hot without saying. That was one suprised crew...no one was hurt thank goodness.

Sad thing is ...this incident did not generate an investigantio and last I heard they still do thing this way.

[MI-Lineman]

as a training concept and vauge company policy...

We were to assume one fault once we found it on patrol and try it.

In practice...just about everyone I worked with would ride the line all the way...

Consumers Energy in Michigan.... they have a lot of 46 kv subtransmission and a standing order for their 'dispactchers'... they will try the line by SCADA after a set period of time (30 minutes if I remember right)...even if your on the radio or cell phone telling them your standing next to the wire on the ground.

Near Midland MI a few years ago a Consumers crew was working a no lights call on some distribution. I dont think they ever really found the source and assumed the source was open as most of the little town was dead.

The 46kv had tripped just outside of town and dumped the whole area. The distribution wire down call was a coincidence.

Transmisson closed the 46 and the distribution came hot without saying. That was one suprised crew...no one was hurt thank goodness.

Sad thing is ...this incident did not generate an investigantio and last I heard they still do thing this way.

Oh yeah, they still like pushing the button first!:mad: A few sub operators have found out the hard way!:eek: STEEL A ROLE OF TAPE AND THEY'LL TURN YOUR LIFE UPSIDE DOWN INVESTIGATING IT THOUGH!!:confused:

[Edge]

could only imagine what would have happened if the MVA at the station jumped of the pad from cold load pickup... damned shame there where no repercussions... they shoulda been sent down the road count insulator the first fuggin time it happened... not have it become common practice...

for what it's worth...

Edge

[MI-Lineman]

could only imagine what would have happened if the MVA at the station jumped of the pad from cold load pickup... damned shame there where no repercussions... they shoulda been sent down the road count insulator the first fuggin time it happened... not have it become common practice...

for what it's worth...

Edge

I think two of the times I remember the operator had a bad 99 switch?:eek: Big problems when they hit scada!:eek: Can't remember exactly but it has happened a few times and probably will happen again! But don't worry....THEY WANT TO EVENTUALLY USE IT ON DIST!!

[markwho]

we have a small utility with only one garage so we usually know where everyone is working. We always ride out the lateral before re-energizing. Most of our lines are accessible , though we do have to patrol by foot at times. No switching order required to re-energize. It is definitely a shame for all involved. If repairs are needed then we ground and place a caution tag on the line through dispatch and then clear it when repairs are completeted, before we re-energize.

[LINCRW]

I would challenge anyone to find a company that would openly admit to having a normal accepted practice that would allow anyone to close in a fuse without first patrolling it to the best of your ability.

If you find any company who says its ok to close the fuse without patrolling first, you don't need to work there or anywhere near it's employees.


I know some people will shove it in first, but I dare say it isn't the "accepted norm".

[IH8FE]

I would challenge anyone to find a company that would openly admit to having a normal accepted practice that would allow anyone to close in a fuse without first patrolling it to the best of your ability.

If you find any company who says its ok to close the fuse without patrolling first, you don't need to work there or anywhere near it's employees.


I know some people will shove it in first, but I dare say it isn't the "accepted norm".

I work for that company its called First Energy aka First Enema. S O P is to re-fuse and close in on all laterals, this is known as the Plug n Pray method. Personnel in the field always patrol the line first though.

[loose neutral]

I work for that company its called First Energy aka First Enema. S O P is to re-fuse and close in on all laterals, this is known as the Plug n Pray method. Personnel in the field always patrol the line first though. This is true, I work for the same company. We also patrol first even though we are supposed to "just try it once, maybe it'll hold". OH but we are a safety oriented company. HA HA HA HA MY ASS !!!!!!

[LINCRW]

If that's the official policy of First Energy (in writing or accepted by leadership) I'd love to be the attorney representing the plaintiff later on..........