R.C. "Delta" Dallas.

[wtdoor67]

Here's one for you to mull over Delta. Have you ever thought about demand? As in demand meters etc. I was a Jman quite a while before I even thought about it. I don't know if they do, but apprenticeships ought to have a few hours of instruction on the subject. A little abstract. Now let old Delta give his thoughts before anybody starts on him.

Knew an old guy once whose brother was a farmer. He installed a big corner pivot sprinkler in the winter. He had a hankering to give it a little test run before spring to check it out. He thought. Hell I'll just run it about 5 minutes, it won't be much useage. Boy did he get a surprise.

Okay Delta we're anxiously waiting for your reply. Don't disappoint us.

[rcdallas]

My thoughts...I'm not going to bullshit ya...I had a 4 days class with Texas Electric Cooperatives on metering, I pulled out my notes on it and demand wasn't talked about skimming through them. Went more on wiring up CT's and PT's and went over different forms and I finally got an answer how to correctly wire my A base meter I got from my first lineman to make a lamp out of it. Here I went through every class and none of them went over metering.

Every now and then when I get a chance when were out installing some primary metering equipment when the meter tech goes out I'll get in there and help him do his end.

As far as demand goes as to why he got a surprise the little I know would say that papa bear charges for how much juice your requiring at a given time --the demand, not necessarily how many KWh you used... what I mean is they charge more for how much load you require rather how much KWh you used.

Though really it makes me wonder since he only ran it for a few minutes when it started up yeah the demand was there, but really I would think over time once the motors get moving along with the irrigation system all the inertia would need less horsepower to keep it moving...so really I would think he would have been better off running it longer then 5 minutes as he was hit more on the initial demand during startup...like cold load pickup.

What do you think?

[wtdoor67]

I ain't got too good a handle on it myself, but I think you're in the ballpark.

It's slightly abstract, but interesting to me. I think each power entity has come to agreements with the state agencies that run the rules and rate regulations covering such things. Just a little out of most linemen's curiosity range, but the more you know the more you learn.

[rcdallas]

One I used to like jacking with at the coop was the "turtle" meters, basically it was a little circuit board that had a optical light that would read the black line on the disc...quite frequently on the service truck we'd get a call from the guy that sat in front of the computer and he could see the usage would drop off...

One time when we swapped over a section of line to a different substation we had to go out and reprogram a bunch of meters...came across this one where the dials read different by about 10,000 kw's... in favor of the coop, boy they got a nice bill the next month.

It was the first version of the turtle system they had over there...took over 24 hours for the meter to transmit back the information if I remember right...last I knew they came out with a version 2 where it could do it in about 15 minutes and give more detailed info then the last such as how much current on each leg, new devices where you could remotely connect/disconnect meters, etc...other then that as far as troubleshooting loose ground wires would cause havoc...lightning would burn them up.

Next was TWACS which is supposed to be the cats meow, never messed with it. Just heard it's more prone to having problems with loose connections in general...I don't recall if turtle v2 or twacs can also integrate with reclosers, etc...

I don't know exactly what they are installing out on our system yet... I know it involves some repeater boxes that we'll be installing on street light arms...supposed to be doing it soon out this way.

Just a whole 'nother field. :cool:

[johnbellamy]

It is my understanding that a demand charge or even meter like on all business, or irrigation accounts, ya see the utility has to take into account that they have to be able to provide that power, as far as load, KVA, KWh,KVAR ect., so they have to take that into account, so if the guy is useing or not, they have to be able to supply power as if everybody is running at full boar at once. So when they have to buy power, or have contracts expire, they have to know how much they have to supply.

If you use your say pump for irrigation, if you use it at off peak hours, then the demand charge is less. Peak hours would be like your daytime hours when everything is running, so the demand is higher. I hope that dose not confuse you, and I am wrong, someone let me know, I do not remember going through that in my apprentiship.

[electriklady]

Demand is used for a business to pay the utilities cost(transmission, distribution and generation)cost of providing a higher amount of electricity for larger use customers. Demand interval is 15 minutes, and they register averages and highest peak every 15 minutes and record it for a month. Demand costs are highest at the startup of motors, higher than when everything is in operation throughout the day. I believe our demand charge(kw) is approximately $9 per kw.

Where cts are used you take the ratio of the ct.....I just wired one up today for a 600 amp service...... today I used 200:5 which means for every 200 kwh used on the meter, 5 will register. So you take the 200 and divide it by 5 and come up with the kwh constant or multiplier and multiply all readings by 40, which we label on the meter and in the billing info.

If you use reactive power, flouresant lights, motors, etc you will also have a KVAR(killovolt amperes) meter because you are taxing the system even more, so you pay kwh,kw,kvar. It requires bigger transformers and wires etc so you are gonna pay for it.

A general service small(uses under 1500kwh or they may have lowered it to 1000kwh) will only require a class 200, 2S meter, or a class 320, 2S meter and will not be billed a demand charge, but once to use 1500 for 2 consecutive months you are gonna get a present from me(a single phase demand meter) not making a customer too happy.

Basically what a demand meter is saying is that through your usage history you have showed us your rate of use is higher so......you are gonna pay the cost of what you use every month as it impacts the investment of the utility to provide it to you.

clear as mud?

[johnbellamy]

I was hopin you were gonna jump in.;)

[electriklady]

my 600 amp 120/208 ct cabinet today, bad photo but......they had no lights:D:D........no KVAR here....just kwh/kw with a multiplier of 40

oh and special note to heelwinch,,,,, with cts and pts....I have to do my work before the linemen make it "hot" so maybe I have a teeeny weeeeny bit to do with your trade.....also on storms I do "service restoration" where we replace houseknobs, splice triplex or open wire secondary to restore service at homes and next year I have to have bucket training as they want us to repair downed triplex at the pole also......so just a teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeny bit, considerin I aint a lineman, I am a meter(wo)man

[wtdoor67]

at one place was contracted to a power co. In my dim understanding it was used for wheeling only. Now to my understanding the power co. only used it for var load. It was explained to me by our engineer that it was basically used like a capacitor by the power co. and since they were using mostly vars they were getting a hellofa bargain. The contract had been made back in the late 40's or 50's and the govt. (SWPA) couldn't wait for the contract to expire as the dummies realized the pwr co. had ripped their ass. Evidently this was before they realized producing vars could be a money maker also.

This section of line was eventally sold to a G & T outfit and they rebuilt it. It was H fixture wood and the poles literally were so bowed and crooked you could probably climbed them without hooks.

Anybody know anything about wheeling contracts?

[Trbl639]

Good explanation!!!!

Spent a lot of time with the metermen/man, tried to learn what I could, to help me later on...............built a lot of CT cans and replaced 'code cable' on boocoo of them.......then the company changed the color code/hook-up and then I had to start writing it all down...........

Red/blue
White/white with black tracer
green/orange

If I remember right........

[electriklady]

Our old color code(before I went in meter dept) was

Orange(V)/Red(C)
White w/black tracer/blue
Black/white

Red w black tracer-voltage ground
Green-CT ground

now it is

Red/Red w/black tracer
Blue/orange
Black/white w/black tracer

White-voltage ground
Green-CT ground

I always keep cheat sheets just in case I have a "brain freeze":rolleyes:

And I was correct...they did lower the kwh consumption level to 1000 kwh for two consecutive months to warrant a demand meter..... and 100kw for 2 consecutive months warrants a kvar meter.

[Trbl639]

Our old color code(before I went in meter dept) was

Orange(V)/Red(C)
White w/black tracer/blue
Black/white

Red w black tracer-voltage ground
Green-CT ground

now it is

Red/Red w/black tracer
Blue/orange
Black/white w/black tracer

White-voltage ground
Green-CT ground

I always keep cheat sheets just in case I have a "brain freeze":rolleyes:

And I was correct...they did lower the kwh consumption level to 1000 kwh for two consecutive months to warrant a demand meter..... and 100kw for 2 consecutive months warrants a kvar meter.

Amen to that...still got mine too!!! On small commercial,single phase,if the load was over 10KW, we installed a Demand meter..........can't remember what the other was for a Kvar meter....that was meter shops job!!

[MI-Lineman]

my 600 amp 120/208 ct cabinet today, bad photo but......they had no lights:D:D........no KVAR here....just kwh/kw with a multiplier of 40

oh and special note to heelwinch,,,,, with cts and pts....I have to do my work before the linemen make it "hot" so maybe I have a teeeny weeeeny bit to do with your trade.....also on storms I do "service restoration" where we replace houseknobs, splice triplex or open wire secondary to restore service at homes and next year I have to have bucket training as they want us to repair downed triplex at the pole also......so just a teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeny bit, considerin I aint a lineman, I am a meter(wo)man

SH!T! You've just contributed more in one post than the before mentioned ever did in his supposed 39 years!:D

[Trbl639]

SH!T! You've just contributed more in one post than the before mentioned ever did in his supposed 39 years!:D

Thanks MI..guess I'm an asshole right up there with you Too!! :D:D:D

[MI-Lineman]

Thanks MI..guess I'm an asshole right up there with you Too!! :D:D:D

NOT YOU!! HIGHER UP THE PAGE!!!:D