The Wye/Wye

[wtdoor67]

Most are 120/208 or 277/480. There are others out there I know. I have seen a few other types.

The following is from a GE transformer connections book copy righted in 1970.

Y-Y connected transformers, excepting three-phase core-type units, are not capable of supplying an appreciable single-phase load from line to neutral without a serious shift in the position of the neutral, owing to the fact that the corresponding primary currents of such loads, flowing through the primaries of the unloaded phases, magnetize them. This statement is primarily true for Y-Y connected single-phase units and shell-type three-phase units. Core-type units, however, may, on account of the interlinking of the magnetic fluxes in the three legs, give tolerably good results under conditions of single-phase loads from line to neutral or unbalanced electrostatic charging currents.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have only worked significantly on about 5 properties. No where have I worked that it was not stated that you "never float the Wye/Wye".

I believe that it would work on strictly 3 phase as I have hooked several Delta/Wye and floated the secondary Wye. Oil field only. From that I'm sure that the reverse would work. But NEVER where single phase load might be involved.

[wtdoor67]

1954.

The wye-wye- is used under the same condition and to supply the same mixed distribution loads as the delta-wye connection. The division of load between transformers is also similar to t hat of the delta-wye. CARE SHOULD BE EXERCISED IN MAKING THE WYE-WYE CONNECTION TO MAKE SURE THAT A WIRE CONNECTS PRIMARY BANK AND PRIMARY CIRCUIT NEUTRALS. iF NOT, TWO PRIMARY WINDINGS WILL BE IN SERIES BETWEEN EACH TWO PHASE WIRES.

Current into a transformer from its phase wire can return only through the other two phase since there is no neutral return. Thus , the wye-wye without connected primary bank and primary source neutrals can operate satisfactorily only when the load is EXACTLY balanced between each phase and neutral on the secondary with equal phase to neutral voltages. Only then will the vector sum of the phase currents add up to zero at the neutral point so that the return current equal zero.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am sure there are some out there but they are essentially wrong if so connected.

[Boomer gone soft]

http://www.geindustrial.com/publibrary/checkout/White%20Papers%7CGET-3388B%7Cgeneric

This bank only works if the load is "perfectly balanced", but that rarely if ever happens in the field.

It was considered obsolete in 1910.

Two simple questions have never been answered:

1. Why would a utility build a bank that was not in their spec book and was shown unfeasible 70 years ago?

2. Why would you (intentionally) build it when it is too easy to make one more connection....there are ZERO REASONS......unless, of course, it wasn't intentional?

[wtdoor67]

I love to yak about transformer connections but I'll admit I do most of it by rote as most hands do.

I have seen quite a variety of hookups but I know there are probably many I haven't seen.

As far as chief engineers at a Muni. I would doubt if they had a Bona Fide engineer at most of them. By this I mean a person with a double EE and probably a PE qualification. The Muni I worked at just had a supt. who was a person with a lot of experience as a Meter Relay Type and mostly just had a pretty good take on theory but was not a college educated type. The person prior to him was just an ex lineman and in conversing with him (he was retired) you would realize he was just an old hand who only knew about one way to do things. Eventually they did acquire a supt. with a double E and I think their subsequent supts. have been degreed engineers.

Engineers are another interest of mine. I have seen many, as most have, that really had no take on how this stuff works, even though they had a sheepskin from major universities. Just a very few, in my opinion, that really understood and could explain the theories of electricity where the average hand could grasp it.

A bunch of so called engineers with some co's are just technicians and most of their instructions for hook ups etc. are usually scrutinized pretty closely by the hands. Or should be anyway.

[wtdoor67]

I believed you built it alright, I just thought it was a screwup. However I had a short tenure at a Muni. About 40 to 50 thousand pop. when I worked for em. Saw some pretty dumb things while I was there.

Come to think of it I saw some dumb things with a Utility. Maybe they're all the same. Ha.

[barehander]

They are out there, old school. But they soon learned that this connection overheated transformers and dramatically shortened the life of the TX.

[Boomer gone soft]

We have determined this connection exists.

We have determined they were found to be impractical as early as 1910.

We have determined some places have used them recently enough for some of us to have seen them (though apparently Swamp is the only one who has ever built one "allegedly")......

What we have not determined is why they would have been used?

Why would a utility build one when the same voltage could be achieved using a standard connection and made safer for the equipment and the hands (any imbalance can result in high potential differences between any grounds and the neutral)?

Barehander said they had a purpose, but what was it? I cannot find any reasons in any of the articles regarding this to even remotely suggest this connection should have been considered.

[Boomer gone soft]

Yup. Me too.
I been tellin ya for years I hooked up a Wye Wye 208 with a floatin Neutral..... But, ya never believed me.
35 years ago danny, there was ALOT of shit that was done different than today. "We've come a long way baby".:D

The day I built it, I'd never seen or heard of one either. We were given the print, and told to build it. I even talked to my foreman about it. He said, "I've seen em, they're rare, but it works fine." Case closed. I built it, closed the doors....and Said...."I'll be god damned".
Got in the truck, and went to the next job.

This seems to be a different story than what you have been saying.

You are now suggesting the secondary neutral was floating.

What is the story? Was the high side floating as you have always contended or was the low side floating as you are now implying?

Was it truly floating, or was it grounded but isolated from the system neutral?

How did you energize the bank? Did you, as this implies, only close the doors and walk away; or were there other steps you are now omitting?

[barehander]

We have determined this connection exists.

We have determined they were found to be impractical as early as 1910.

We have determined some places have used them recently enough for some of us to have seen them (though apparently Swamp is the only one who has ever built one "allegedly")......

What we have not determined is why they would have been used?

Why would a utility build one when the same voltage could be achieved using a standard connection and made safer for the equipment and the hands (any imbalance can result in high potential differences between any grounds and the neutral)?

Barehander said they had a purpose, but what was it? I cannot find any reasons in any of the articles regarding this to even remotely suggest this connection should have been considered.

You know something, some places in this world are still in 1910........some, 1 BC. It doesn't matter why this connection was used. You, Door, and others have used this to pound Swamp to discredit him. But, other people who read this stuff, need to understand that personal complaints about someone should not distort the facts about Linework. This site is about Linework, and yes, politics and personal grudges happens to be a part of the site.

[Boomer gone soft]

You two want to be taken seriously, but don't answer simple questions?

Interesting......:rolleyes:

Swamp, was it truly floating, or was it grounded but isolated from the system neutral?

How did you energize the bank? Did you, as this implies, only close the doors and walk away; or were there other steps you are now omitting?


BH, I would like to know why/what applications simply because I would like to know. If you don't know, just say so.:rolleyes:

[US & CA Tramp]

I don't want to get in the middle of a feud.

I have built this type of bank as well as seen it on ocasion. The ways I have seen it: is normally the grounded primary bushing tied directly to the ground and to the neutral on each pot. I am also aware of times when the grounded primary bushings are all tied together but floated (not tied down to the neutral or ground). This last type is not the best senario and was usually used for lighting load or sometimes for pumps. In these cases the load was evenly distributed between the three.

Because of the imbalance of load on these banks we would tie the floating primary ground down to a ground source while closeing in the bank, and then lift the tie once all cut outs were closed.

The floating primary ground was used when there was no neutral or when the utility was trying to make due with pots they had on hand and we would cut them over internally out in the field.

When there was a large load or fault on one phase the entire bank would kick out. These were a nightmare to use and very unsafe especially when first closing in. The circulating current was wild. That is why most utilities stopped allowing this connection to be used as well as it being extremely inefficeint, since the load never stays the same.

There are still some of these out there so be careful. Best thing is just have it replaced.

[freshjive]

I know this is kinda off topic, but I saw that 4th cutout was involved..As for the 4th switch, I have worked on stepdowns in my area that are built with a fourth switch in them..They use 100k fuses and the switch goes straight to ground it was open and thats the way it was left..I asked the same ? when I was working on it... It is actually a bank of 250 stepdowns that go wye to delta, but I was told it was for back-sourcing or backfeeding the system in the event they wanted to go from delta back to wye, they would close the fourth switch to pick up the neutral..

[barehander]

You two want to be taken seriously, but don't answer simple questions?

Interesting......:rolleyes:

Swamp, was it truly floating, or was it grounded but isolated from the system neutral?

How did you energize the bank? Did you, as this implies, only close the doors and walk away; or were there other steps you are now omitting?


BH, I would like to know why/what applications simply because I would like to know. If you don't know, just say so.:rolleyes:

Boomer, before I answer, I need to get the question clear in my mind. Let's say you have a 3 pot bank, 2 bushing Txs. 1 phase of each tx is connected to the primary. The second phase of each tx are all tied together and not connected to any neutral, thus floating. Is that the question?

[barehander]

Boomer, before I answer, I need to get the question clear in my mind. Let's say you have a 3 pot bank, 2 bushing Txs. 1 phase of each tx is connected to the primary. The second phase of each tx are all tied together and not connected to any neutral, thus floating. Is that the question?

If this is the question, there has to be someone else on this site that has the answer, the where and the why, besides me..........

Here's a kicker, I've done this on Cap banks also.......come on, think outside your box.....

[wtdoor67]

Hopefully not too far off subject.

Once again that old engineering book from 1954 devotes about half a page on "floating" the ground on a cap bank. It warns specifically not to do it.

What was funny was that the Supt. once wanted us to float one. We didn't do it. That book from 1954, I got it from him. Ha!

He was a super hand on subs and sub work. Another thing he discouraged was making slack spans by snubbing the wire with a pre-form on the tops of insulators. We did it anyway. Hell I can remember snubbing 477 on the tops of insulators with ties made specifically for that purpose.

[US & CA Tramp]

I know this is kinda off topic, but I saw that 4th cutout was involved..As for the 4th switch, I have worked on stepdowns in my area that are built with a fourth switch in them..They use 100k fuses and the switch goes straight to ground it was open and thats the way it was left..I asked the same ? when I was working on it... It is actually a bank of 250 stepdowns that go wye to delta, but I was told it was for back-sourcing or backfeeding the system in the event they wanted to go from delta back to wye, they would close the fourth switch to pick up the neutral..

This is the same idea as tieing down a floating grounded side. It makes the circulating current stable long enough to close all three switches, and then open up the 4th switch.

You may also see something like this in step down stations, when a wye three phase line, with no neutral, feeds station transformers. Some of these old step down stations may even have a 4th transformer hooked into it, that is used to get a reference to ground for the line being fed from it, and that line would have a neutral.

Again these are old instalations and generally not under alot of load.

If you don't completely understand it ask the Foreman to get his slide rule out and explain it to you. Remember Slide rules?

[freshjive]

ya US its a funny hook-up. The system that I saw it hooked up to is verrrry old. We ended up buying a towns system (previously a co-op), which is mostly direct buried underground and mostly all delta. We had a few guys, luckily that the company ended up hiring that worked for the co-op so they knew the system because there were no feeder maps or anything like that. It goes from 13.2 kv wye to 2400 delta. One night, we had one Stepdown (they are 250 kvas) on the bank go and we hung a new one. Well, in the process I noticed a 4th cutout that went directly to ground thru a piece of 4ot copper with a 100k line fuse/door hanging next to it. I thought to myself how weird it was. Then I asked, and the answer I got, was it's used in the case they wana go from delta back to wye (backfeed it). I looked at the standards book, and there was the exact bank I worked on on one of the pages. It talked about floating the neutral taps as well, but I can't remember if the bank I worked on had floating nuetral taps or not? Hmmm? Maybe the floating wye has somwthing to do with a polarity issue? Don't really know why they'd wire it like that, but I'm sure there is some out there.

[wtdoor67]

ya US its a funny hook-up. The system that I saw it hooked up to is verrrry old. We ended up buying a towns system (previously a co-op), which is mostly direct buried underground and mostly all delta. We had a few guys, luckily that the company ended up hiring that worked for the co-op so they knew the system because there were no feeder maps or anything like that. It goes from 13.2 kv wye to 2400 delta. One night, we had one Stepdown (they are 250 kvas) on the bank go and we hung a new one. Well, in the process I noticed a 4th cutout that went directly to ground thru a piece of 4ot copper with a 100k line fuse/door hanging next to it. I thought to myself how weird it was. Then I asked, and the answer I got, was it's used in the case they wana go from delta back to wye (backfeed it). I looked at the standards book, and there was the exact bank I worked on on one of the pages. It talked about floating the neutral taps as well, but I can't remember if the bank I worked on had floating nuetral taps or not? Hmmm? Maybe the floating wye has somwthing to do with a polarity issue? Don't really know why they'd wire it like that, but I'm sure there is some out there.

We had at PSO a similar setup. It was also 13.2 stepped down to 2400 Delta. This was overhead 13.2 Wye going down a pole to a stepdown padmount and coming back up as 2400 delta.

Your statement of back feeding from delta back to wye is hard for me to understand. First you would need a source of backfeed on the delta side to feed the 13.2 Wye. The logistics of this would make no sense to me.

In my understanding of the setup you describe it would require a Wye/Delta connection and the grounding cutout you describe would be just a guard against ferroresonance. This is common.

Floating the Wye has no bearing on the polarity.

[freshjive]

i'm just guessing as to why. In my standards book it says that 4th cutout is for "backsourcing" (I'm not sure if that's the same as backfeeding I just kind of assumed it was). I was just thinking in terms of polarity, because we had a bank of stepdowns somewwhere else, and the polarity can't be off by more than like 0.05% or you can have real problems as they did out there(the padmount it fed sounded like it was gonna blow up when energized). I was just trying to think of reasons as to why the neutral would be floating...

[Boomer gone soft]

Damn....ANOTHER...Real Lineman.:cool:

So, Woodtick...youngen troubleboy? Believe me yet?:D

Believe they exist(ed)? yes

Believe you built one? no

Believe you have an inkling of what this thing is or how it works? HELL NO!

[Boomer gone soft]

Boomer, before I answer, I need to get the question clear in my mind. Let's say you have a 3 pot bank, 2 bushing Txs. 1 phase of each tx is connected to the primary. The second phase of each tx are all tied together and not connected to any neutral, thus floating. Is that the question?

Yes, and the secondary is also wye.

My point is why float it if it only saves one connection and creates all of these other issues? There would had to have been some advantage (or percieved advantage) to build that rather than a standard wye/wye with the neutral tied down to justify the increased dangers to the Lineman and the equipment and the customer's equipment.

[Boomer gone soft]

i'm just guessing as to why. In my standards book it says that 4th cutout is for "backsourcing" (I'm not sure if that's the same as backfeeding I just kind of assumed it was). I was just thinking in terms of polarity, because we had a bank of stepdowns somewwhere else, and the polarity can't be off by more than like 0.05% or you can have real problems as they did out there(the padmount it fed sounded like it was gonna blow up when energized). I was just trying to think of reasons as to why the neutral would be floating...

The bank you are describing sounds like a wye/delta. It is very common to float the neut on the high side of those to keep the bank from backfeeding a down / open primary phase. Most utilities want it tied to ground / system neutral before opening or closing because of voltage spikes (Entergy provides a 4th cutout, Xcel energy provides a pigtail to the pole ground with a hotline clamp.) Other utilities (like Alliant Energy) just oversize the arrestors and don't tie the nuetral before opening or closing.

Regardless of their switching procedures, I think everybody floats those banks.

We are discussing floating the neutral on a wye/wye.....something completely different.

[barehander]

Yes, and the secondary is also wye.

My point is why float it if it only saves one connection and creates all of these other issues? There would had to have been some advantage (or percieved advantage) to build that rather than a standard wye/wye with the neutral tied down to justify the increased dangers to the Lineman and the equipment and the customer's equipment.

Now you're thinking in the right direction. Our 12kv system does not have a neutral. It's ground reference is earth, and that is the return......
To get to the answer, you have to think about 12kv to 21kv conversions.....

As I've said, I'm not a fan of this, especially having been a T-man in my past.

[wtdoor67]

The book you cited in the other thread actually condemns the "Floating Wye/Floating Wye.????

[barehander]

The book you cited in the other thread actually condemns the "Floating Wye/Floating Wye.????
That is true, and as Boomer stated, it can cause catastopic arrestor failure when closing in the bank. I think ABB has some info on that, I'll have to find that paper. Some utilities think they know better, unfortunately. It can cause overvoltage problems along with other problems. We never close in banks unless the customer main is open.
And yes, we do burn up alot of customer eguipment.

[johnbellamy]

...............

[barehander]

Three wire Y primary, with no fourth wire (system neutral) out there. Alot of banks that feed irrigation pumps mostly, no single phase loading, but most are strait 240 three phase or 480 three phase, that is all that motor needs to see, Y or D.

He said he built a 120/208 bank, he said he tied the secondary down to the system neutral, on a Y primary, a system neutral means four wire primary to me which is differnt to earth ground.

These banks are accidents waiting to happen, all new construction requires a fourth wire or system neutral to be pulled in, and either a 120/208 or 277/480 be built to replace the exsisting bank.

When some says system neutral to me, it means the utilties system neutral, not the customers system neutral.

John
I'm with you on the 4 wire system and there is no reason not to connect the pri to the neutral. There is a big difference between a ground and a neutral. As I've said, there are alot of systems out there, and your "new construction" standards are vastly different than ours. We have 2 primary voltages that have no neutral, so pulling in a neutral is out of the question. We either hang a 3 phase Tx (the largest being a 300kva), or go to padmounts, connected delta.

[lewy]

Originally Posted by johnbellamy http://ww3.powerlineman.com/lforum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://ww3.powerlineman.com/lforum/showthread.php?p=97170#post97170)
It is a big world out there.

Was this an overhead Y/Y bank that the high side neutral was floated on?


John,
This whole "story" originated YEARS ago, in a thread, where I posted a comment about building this bank. The thread is probably lost in the archives...So, Once again...

The bank was Overhead. Either 3, 37.5, or 3 50KVA pots...Honestly don't remember which. The transformers were identical, 7620/13.8, 120/240 Dual bushing pots. We split em inside, AC/BD. (Alley Cat/Bad Dog)

Wired em up, Wye-Wye, and floated the neutral on the High side. The Secondary bus neutral, was grounded to the System Neutral. The Floating neutral we wired to the Top of a "4th Switch", mounted on the pole itself. The bottom of the switch, was connected to the pole ground, which was connected to the system Neutral. The door was left out, and wired to the pole.

If the bank needed to be taken out of service to be worked on, we were suppose to First close in the 4th switch before we opened the bank, and then open the 3 primary switches.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianLineman http://ww3.powerlineman.com/lforum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://ww3.powerlineman.com/lforum/showthread.php?p=97164#post97164)
I've known for years of this connection. There was no way in the world I was going to rescue you.

I didn't need to be rescued smith.
I built it, it worked, and....it was 35 years ago. It just took a Real Lineman to actually come forth, and state what I already knew.
I would also like to know why you would float the neutral on the high side when you have a system neutral available? I see no advantage to it.
It is a little different if there is no system neutral available. I know on our 44kv we treat it like a delta even though it really is a wye, we have some spots where we go 44kv to 347/600, but this is obviously not a bank, but a pad mounted transformer.

[johnbellamy]

John
I'm with you on the 4 wire system and there is no reason not to connect the pri to the neutral. There is a big difference between a ground and a neutral. As I've said, there are alot of systems out there, and your "new construction" standards are vastly different than ours. We have 2 primary voltages that have no neutral, so pulling in a neutral is out of the question. We either hang a 3 phase Tx (the largest being a 300kva), or go to padmounts, connected delta.


...............

[Boomer gone soft]

Three wire Y primary, with no fourth wire (system neutral) out there. Alot of banks that feed irrigation pumps mostly, no single phase loading, but most are strait 240 three phase or 480 three phase, that is all that motor needs to see, Y or D.

He said he built a 120/208 bank, he said he tied the secondary down to the system neutral, on a Y primary, a system neutral means four wire primary to me which is differnt to earth ground.These banks are accidents waiting to happen, all new construction requires a fourth wire or system neutral to be pulled in, and either a 120/208 or 277/480 be built to replace the exsisting bank.

When some says system neutral to me, it means the utilties system neutral, not the customers system neutral.



That was exactly my point. I believe he also said it had a lighting load, which would inherently make a balanced load fully impossible.

I have heard of the 3 wire wye systems- only in California. And even in those systems, I did not think the neutral is truly floated. I assumed it is grounded.

BH, is that not the case?

[Boomer gone soft]

Is it just me, or is it curious the "expert" is conspicuously quiet?

Like I and others have said all along.....

He did not build this bank.:rolleyes:

[heelwinch]

Three wire Y primary, with no fourth wire (system neutral) out there. Alot of banks that feed irrigation pumps mostly, no single phase loading, but most are strait 240 three phase or 480 three phase, that is all that motor needs to see, Y or D.

He said he built a 120/208 bank, he said he tied the secondary down to the system neutral, on a Y primary, a system neutral means four wire primary to me which is differnt to earth ground.

These banks are accidents waiting to happen, all new construction requires a fourth wire or system neutral to be pulled in, and either a 120/208 or 277/480 be built to replace the exsisting bank.

When some says system neutral to me, it means the utilties system neutral, not the customers system neutral.

Well folks there you have it... the great one ( Not SBATTS) has spoken... lets all bow to the lamplighter bellamy.
Go glove some 34.5 off the pole and do us all a favor.

[wtdoor67]

Hope this doesn't veer off the subject too much. I have run across the Wye systems with out the neutral several places. It's not that rare. Some all the way from the sub and some intermittently within the system. Sometimes I think it occurred for strictly load that was thought just going to be 3 phase only. Not very good anticipation by the load planners I guess. Always seemed to me just dumb not to run a neutral.

Some came about I think when they cut delta systems to wye. Keeps people on their toes though. I had experienced people tell me at one place that the system was delta although I knew it wasn't. Areas where there was no neutral they thought was delta because the pots were delta connected. I never told them different. It confused them on transformer selection because for single phase pots or 2 pot apps it required a higher rated (number of turns), but for the Wye/Delta 3 pot bank you could use the lower rated pots. Since you could use higher rated in a Delta/Delta connection, it was not uncommon to see a Delta/Delta bank not far from a Wye/Delta bank. Both with the same secondary voltage. Confusing to some.

I remember once hanging a bank in such an area. The foreman looked at the labels after we got there and asserted it wouldn't work. I said, sure it will and hung the pots and closed them in. He never understood.

We've talked of this before, but I guess review is okay sometimes.

[barehander]

That was exactly my point. I believe he also said it had a lighting load, which would inherently make a balanced load fully impossible.

I have heard of the 3 wire wye systems- only in California. And even in those systems, I did not think the neutral is truly floated. I assumed it is grounded.

BH, is that not the case?

3 wire wye. How would you ground a floating primary neutral in a 3 wire wye?

[Boomer gone soft]

3 wire wye. How would you ground a floating primary neutral in a 3 wire wye?

I would try the pole ground. How do you build them out there on the other side of this big wide world of linework?;)

[barehander]

I would try the pole ground. How do you build them out there on the other side of this big wide world of linework?;)

If you do that, what potential are are you putting at ground level if the connection comes loose, or the ground is broken or cut?

[Boomer gone soft]

If you do that, what potential are are you putting at ground level if the connection comes loose, or the ground is broken or cut?

Point well taken.

Would that not also be the case when opening and closing? Or are they never grounded?

[Boomer gone soft]

Naw..It's "Just you". But, keep tryin boy...:p

Your wife needs to Put your leash on again....
I'm gettin to you "youngen".:D
Ya ought to be spendin time with your Family...37 years old....screwin with a retired 63 year old lineman.

You're fu$ed up dude.:D

dufflepud.....

[scratchpad]

you guys always fu(k up a thread where an ape is trying to learn something. is there really a need for the baiting?

i'm having a hard enough time trying to understand all the stuff you guys are talking about then you guys derail and lose my interest. carry on

[johnbellamy]

Well folks there you have it... the great one ( Not SBATTS) has spoken... lets all bow to the lamplighter bellamy.
Go glove some 34.5 off the pole and do us all a favor.


.....................

[wtdoor67]

I once witnessed a lineman hook up a single phase tx and missed connecting to the system neut, just connected to the pole ground.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Off hand I remember 3 or 4 incidents similar to this.

Once we had the wire to the case ground break on a single bushing pot. I was a 4 wire Wye system. It touched off and on in the wind. Each time it touched the case it was like a little welding arc. Eventually it made a hole in the case, the oil drained out and the pot then failed.

Another time I knew a crew that built an open wye/open delta bank on a 4 wire wye system. They failed to connect to the system neutral. If worked for awhile and eventually caught the pole on fire. The troubleman referred it to the crew. They came, connected the ground correctly, splinted the burned part of the pole with an arm and I think it's still that way.

Another incident was URD. The dip went down the pole etc. 3 phase to a pad mt. that served a new church. 4 wire wye. I had been on vac and came back. I was not there on the initial build. The little foreman and I looked up the pole. Everything was hot. I think we were taking down the rigging for the saw pole etc. As we looked up the pole I said. Christ, you don't even have this connected to the system neutral. I never forget. The little worm looked up and after a little bit said. True. Ha! It never hurt anything, but was just squirrely.

Had a close friend get burned on a broken pot ground once. He was an apprentice working with a troubleman. It was a no power but the cutout was still closed. He was wearing leather gloves, climbed up and with one hand touching the pole ground he touched the pot case with his other hand. He was burned slightly on both hands, but he fell and that's where he got his most serious injury. He made a full recovery however.

Saw a cap bank once on a no neutral wye system. They had connected the hot bushings up and on the grounded bushings they just ran it down the pole on a pole ground and connected to a ground rod. The wire broke at the grn rod connection. It would arc periodically. Troubleman referred it to a crew. We added about 3 or so spans of neutral and reconnected it. Pretty dumb.

Swamp eats boogers.

[barehander]

I once witnessed a lineman hook up a single phase tx and missed connecting to the system neut, just connected to the pole ground.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Off hand I remember 3 or 4 incidents similar to this.

Once we had the wire to the case ground break on a single bushing pot. I was a 4 wire Wye system. It touched off and on in the wind. Each time it touched the case it was like a little welding arc. Eventually it made a hole in the case, the oil drained out and the pot then failed.

Another time I knew a crew that built an open wye/open delta bank on a 4 wire wye system. They failed to connect to the system neutral. If worked for awhile and eventually caught the pole on fire. The troubleman referred it to the crew. They came, connected the ground correctly, splinted the burned part of the pole with an arm and I think it's still that way.

Another incident was URD. The dip went down the pole etc. 3 phase to a pad mt. that served a new church. 4 wire wye. I had been on vac and came back. I was not there on the initial build. The little foreman and I looked up the pole. Everything was hot. I think we were taking down the rigging for the saw pole etc. As we looked up the pole I said. Christ, you don't even have this connected to the system neutral. I never forget. The little worm looked up and after a little bit said. True. Ha! It never hurt anything, but was just squirrely.

Had a close friend get burned on a broken pot ground once. He was an apprentice working with a troubleman. It was a no power but the cutout was still closed. He was wearing leather gloves, climbed up and with one hand touching the pole ground he touched the pot case with his other hand. He was burned slightly on both hands, but he fell and that's where he got his most serious injury. He made a full recovery however.

Saw a cap bank once on a no neutral wye system. They had connected the hot bushings up and on the grounded bushings they just ran it down the pole on a pole ground and connected to a ground rod. The wire broke at the grn rod connection. It would arc periodically. Troubleman referred it to a crew. We added about 3 or so spans of neutral and reconnected it. Pretty dumb.

Swamp eats boogers.

We don't case ground any transformers, only equipment (Regs, Boosters, etc). Always consider it energized, and the mounting bolts are always covered. As I said before, 3 wire wye, we float that neutral on a cap bank, you get exactly the same KVAR as if it was connected to a neutral. That way the company only buys 12kv cap units, they can be used anywhere.

A ground and a neutral are so very different, never, ever "ground" a primary connection.

[barehander]

Now I have to ask if anyone knows what a Zig-Zag Transformer is and why it's used?

[johnbellamy]

John
I'm with you on the 4 wire system and there is no reason not to connect the pri to the neutral. There is a big difference between a ground and a neutral. As I've said, there are alot of systems out there, and your "new construction" standards are vastly different than ours. We have 2 primary voltages that have no neutral, so pulling in a neutral is out of the question. We either hang a 3 phase Tx (the largest being a 300kva), or go to padmounts, connected delta.

....................

[johnbellamy]

[QUOTE=barehander;97467]We don't case ground any transformers, only equipment (Regs, Boosters, etc). Always consider it energized, and the mounting bolts are always covered. As I said before, 3 wire wye, we float that neutral on a cap bank, you get exactly the same KVAR as if it was connected to a neutral. That way the company only buys 12kv cap units, they can be used anywhere.







.................

[wtdoor67]

Now I have to ask if anyone knows what a Zig-Zag Transformer is and why it's used?

You go first. Yeah I know what one is but I've never seen one in operation. I've seen a few grounding banks, but my curiosity was at a low ebb at the time and I didn't really check em out.

[johnbellamy]

If you do that, what potential are are you putting at ground level if the connection comes loose, or the ground is broken or cut?











.................

[barehander]

"New Construction" 120/208 and 277/480 Y are offered, If a neutral is not present, one will be pulled in to accomedate a new installation.

If a 3 wire Y is present and a exsisting bank is damaged or a customer decides to up grade a neutral will be pulled in and the exsisting bank will be replaced with a 277/480 Y/Y bank.

Now for clairification, can you explain why you would float the high side neutral on a 120/208 Y/Y bank when a neutral is present as swamprat states that is what he did in the post above so as not to confuse an Journeyman or an apprentice.

Also on 3 phase OH tanks, hooked up delta, for clarification, what do you call that connection, Y/Y or D/Y, even though we know your voltage is 3 wire Y?

Also could you post a picture of a 3 phase overhead Tx, so again not to be confused with a 3 pot bank, as you have some advantage as that is the system you are currently working on and it is relivent to your present location.

When you state there is no reason not to connect to the primary neutral if present, are you saying it is ok not too?

Great questions John, and alot of them to boot. This is where theory and math come into play. You have turns ratios, and what is a wye connection and a delta. As with you, "New Constuction" is not what I'm talking about. This may bore some people, and if you feel youself nodding off, get up and walk around.
Turns ratio....that's what this is all about, the # of pri turns vs sec turns. I'll keep it simple. If a tx has 2 pri turns, & 1 sec turn (2 to 1) and you put 10volts on the pri, you will get 5 volts on the sec. and if the ratio was 1 to 2, it would be opposite, 10v in, 20v out. The first is a step down tx, the second is a step up tx. All of our single phase tx's are 2 bushing and they come in 2 pri voltages, 12kv (11.7) & 21kv (22.3). Sec volts are 120/240 & 240/480. (Always read those nameplates). On a 12kv-120v tx, the turns ratio is 100 to 1, 21kv to 120v is about 180 to1.
Sorry, I nodded off for a second.
Ok, let's just talk about a single phase, 2 bushing 120/240v tx on a 21kv 4wire system, and on a 21kv 3 wire system. (We do have a ton of 21kv 4 wire). On a 4 wire system you have 2 options. Hang a 12kv pot and connect it wye on the pri, or hang a 21kv pot and hook it up delta (no reference to the neutral on the pri). On the 3 wire system, you only have 1 choice, 21kv pri, 21kv tx. Having said all that, I have hooked up a 12kv PT on a cap bank on a 21kv 3 wire wye by using a pole ground, and will never, ever do that again.
Now that you can see that even in a 4 wire system, a tx doesn't need a reference to the station neutral on the pri. side on that system. As far as the 3 pot banks on a 3 wire wye goes, first, they must be of equall size. Using 12kv pots in this 21kv system, you connect 1 bushing of each to the line. The second bushing is tied with the other pots and floated. When you apply pri voltage, it would be 12kv on the one side of the coil, and zero on the other. That satisfies the pots requirement to create that magnetic field to impose a voltage on the secondary, and whatever the "turns ratio" is, that's the secondary voltage. That ungrounded floating neutral is common with the pots and each pot is sharing equally to produce that field. Where the problems accur is when a single c/o is opened under load, or a fuse is blown, overvoltage will happen. That's why it's suggested with these banks, that a gang operated switching device be used.
I know I didn't answer all your questions, but my brain hurts, and now I need a beer & a nap.

[barehander]

Primary voltage would be available, but would the bank work if it was tied to "Ground" ?

Again can you explain?

On your 3 wire Y ungrounded system, can you clarify as to not confuse, your field connections, are they not Delta high side?

When you state you cover your bolts, and consider your pots "energized", for clarification, energized at what voltage?

I would hope, all pots are considered "energized" or why hang them?

What potental voltage would that put your pole at? and would it be phase to "Gorund" voltage, or a phase to "neutral" voltage, as no primary neutral is present?

When you state it is a Y voltage, do you say for instance 7200 phase to neutral 12470 phase to phase, or 7200 phase to "Ground"?

Again, terms can be confusing or taken out of context.

I thought the whole point of why this was started was so swamprat would be proven correct, and I will state by his posts what he says he built and the terminology he gives is confusing and you have done nothing other than show you are useing a 3 wire ungrounded Y system, because that is what you work on, and certain words that can be interpited different ways to try and make a point.

I think you should have let swamprat in on what you are doing, because I do not think you are doing him any favors, and in the mean time, confused alot of journeyman and apes while doing so.

Carry on professor.

Again John, damn good questions, and I totally agree, terminology is very important. I will set it straight, but right now, after my last response, half my brain cells died, and the other half are at the wake. I never responded to prove anything about anyone, it's just to show that there is stuff out there. I've said this before, I've learned a bunch about others systems that are so unfamilier to me, but I accept it. It's all good and we can all learn.
I'll respond later after a little hiatous.

[johnbellamy]

....................

[heelwinch]

Thanks for explaining I guess.

What voltages do yo offer to your customers?

Are you saying on your 3 wire Y, you build a 120/208 Y/Y and float the primary neutral, on a 3 pot OH bank, as an option to customers? please clarify.

I think WTD already covered the whole name plate thing, and I understand ratios just fine, I know how a tranformer works but thanks for the refresher professor, little play on words there.

When I see a pot hooked up phase to phase, I see a Delta connected high side, even though your voltage is Y, if I see a 3 wire Y system hooked up phase to phase on a bank, I see a Delta connection.

I see a 3 wire Y primary floated on the high side almost daily, I know how it works, but you keep trying to skirt the issue, that on a 4 wire Y system, if a Y/Y 120/208 bank is built, you imply it is ok to float the high neutral as an option, then you state why it is a bad connection?

When you state you hooked a PT to ground, you would never do that again, what the hell does that have to do with a Y/Y 120/208 bank and floating the high side neutral? And if you would never do that again, explain why?

Then ya go off on gang operated switchs, why don't you clarify, must be a larger bank, I would think you are talking about a 480 bank right?, or maybe it is a large 120/208 bank ya keep takin about? , or that you have the customer shed their load before opening the other cutouts if one blows?

I get the whole "everybody thinks we are delta, but really we are Y", but what kind of connections are you making?

Carry on professor, but I think you have "bonded on" one to many times.

In case you didn't catch the snide remarks... There is only one jon jellamy and in his world there is the same population explosion as there is in ABATT's....

1

But carry on jon, I love it when you make an ass out of yourself and then storm off and hide for 4 or 5 months...

You float the high side... and you'll be just fine

[Edge]

bout fuggin time we had some talk aboutline work!

good fuggin stuff too!!!

I respond on the zig zig pot..... if the jargon matches what I'm thinking of it's a phase shifting transformer...

seen a few of them when I worked in the great white norte... doing grid ties.... they are 3 phase units that actually change the angular displacement of the 3 phase system goming in to match the one your going to grid tye with and they are some BIG SOBs.... think of them as a regulater but in stead of booosting or buckin voltage their doing it to the phase angles.... pretty damned interesting stuff...

I might chime in on some of the other stuff if I get a chance.... been busy lately... I guess if you find stuff to do when you retire there is a life outa linework... yeah well maybe not...I did just post hehe

for what it's worth...

Edge

[barehander]

Thanks for explaining I guess.

What voltages do yo offer to your customers?

Are you saying on your 3 wire Y, you build a 120/208 Y/Y and float the primary neutral, on a 3 pot OH bank, as an option to customers? please clarify.

I think WTD already covered the whole name plate thing, and I understand ratios just fine, I know how a tranformer works but thanks for the refresher professor, little play on words there.

When I see a pot hooked up phase to phase, I see a Delta connected high side, even though your voltage is Y, if I see a 3 wire Y system hooked up phase to phase on a bank, I see a Delta connection.

I see a 3 wire Y primary floated on the high side almost daily, I know how it works, but you keep trying to skirt the issue, that on a 4 wire Y system, if a Y/Y 120/208 bank is built, you imply it is ok to float the high neutral as an option, then you state why it is a bad connection?

When you state you hooked a PT to ground, you would never do that again, what the hell does that have to do with a Y/Y 120/208 bank and floating the high side neutral? And if you would never do that again, explain why?

Then ya go off on gang operated switchs, why don't you clarify, must be a larger bank, I would think you are talking about a 480 bank right?, or maybe it is a large 120/208 bank ya keep takin about? , or that you have the customer shed their load before opening the other cutouts if one blows?

I get the whole "everybody thinks we are delta, but really we are Y", but what kind of connections are you making?

Carry on professor, but I think you have "bonded on" one to many times.
Because if it was, I'd probably lose.
I guess I know your point in regards to me and your "Play on words" comment. This thread is called "The Wye-Wye", not "why did Swamp hook up a floating wye wye on a 4 wire system."


I see a 3 wire Y primary floated on the high side almost daily, I know how it works, but you keep trying to skirt the issue, that on a 4 wire Y system, if a Y/Y 120/208 bank is built, you imply it is ok to float the high neutral as an option, then you state why it is a bad connection?

If you go and look at what I said, you will see that I only talked about a 3 wire system, and I can't explain Swamps so called hook up on a 4 wire system.
I was born at night, but I wasn't born last night......So if you want to just try and back me into a corner, good luck with that. If you want to have a serious conversation about various systems, where we can both learn something, then let's get it on. That's a + + for everyone.
I'm only talking about a 12kv to 21 kv 3wire conversion, not "New construction". I can answer all of your questions, but if all you're doing is having a "weenie wagging contest", then I'll just sit this one out. If you want to ask questions in an un-patronizing way, then I will respond. Otherwise, I'm just wasting my breath, and at my age, I need all of that extra oxygen.

[lewy]

I have a few questions, BH I am curious why you do not ground your transformers. I would certainly guess that you have arrestors at all of your transformers. What about the customer side because we are talking about wye primary & wye secondary, what do you do for there neutral connection.

This is what we do, we have a separate connection for the case ground which is attached to the down ground which is also used for arrestors & is connected to the system neutral.
We connect X2 to the system neutral
We connect H2 to the system neutral
On single bushing TX we do not run a wire from H2 to X2, but X2 has a ground strap.
On 2 bushing TXs we do run a wire from H2 to X2 whether or not there is a ground strap at X2

[johnbellamy]

.....................

[woodhooks]

you guys always fu(k up a thread where an ape is trying to learn something. is there really a need for the baiting?

i'm having a hard enough time trying to understand all the stuff you guys are talking about then you guys derail and lose my interest. carry on

I almost didn't join this forum because of all the bickering. Sounds like a bunch of women on this forum. Do you know how many guys go to work to escape the bickering? Last thing is to come on here and read bickering. I ain't no lineman yet and I'll tell you. But both of you claim to be one and neither of you act like one. Cheers.

[wtdoor67]

Think old John Bellamy can play a guitar? His kinfolk can.

[heelwinch]

You can save your breath, I am to far gone.

I but alot of the real young guys are not.

When you see swamprat crow like a rooster, I told you so, even BH says I am right, then go to well I was young ah shucks guys I just did what they told me to do.

Some younger guys will think BH knows what he is talking about, so swamprat must also know.

You post alot of things that can be taken different ways, I know you do it by choice, it is your way, but that kind of teaching is kind insulting to a guy like me, some guys just take it as funny.

I did not want any ape or grunt or lineman to read that you were endorsing swamprat about the Y/Y thing, thats all.

I know you know what you are talking about, with knowledge comes responsibility, I would hope you stay engaged with the board as much as you can, not just drop in from time to time, OK buddy we cool.;)

I think I am counter productive to board, So I am imposing sanctions against myself.

You win Mr. Heelwinch, I surrender. :)

Run Forest.... Run!!

[barehander]

You can save your breath, I am to far gone.

I but alot of the real young guys are not.

When you see swamprat crow like a rooster, I told you so, even BH says I am right, then go to well I was young ah shucks guys I just did what they told me to do.

Some younger guys will think BH knows what he is talking about, so swamprat must also know.

You post alot of things that can be taken different ways, I know you do it by choice, it is your way, but that kind of teaching is kind insulting to a guy like me, some guys just take it as funny.

I did not want any ape or grunt or lineman to read that you were endorsing swamprat about the Y/Y thing, thats all.

I know you know what you are talking about, with knowledge comes responsibility, I would hope you stay engaged with the board as much as you can, not just drop in from time to time, OK buddy we cool.;)

I think I am counter productive to board, So I am imposing sanctions against myself.

You win Mr. Heelwinch, I surrender. :)

I was a little worried on how you would respond to my post, and how I would respond to you. Let me say this, if we were on the same crew, whether I or you were a foreman, or we were Lineman together, we would get along just fine, cause my approach is very different on a crew than it is on this site. I'd like to see more thinking here. The people I have worked with will tell you that I have helped them in whatever the discussion or problem is about.
I'm not endorsing anyone on this site, but I do believe that there is an abundence of knowledge on here.
I want more people to join and interact, and I would hope that the others on here could guide them. It sometimes turns ugly. Oh well
So, for the future, let's just talk man to man, no BS. I'll respect that.



As far as the bonding on comment...............I've done it and you haven't...........................Na na, na na na..............

[Boomer gone soft]

bout fuggin time we had some talk aboutline work!

good fuggin stuff too!!!

I respond on the zig zig pot..... if the jargon matches what I'm thinking of it's a phase shifting transformer...

seen a few of them when I worked in the great white norte... doing grid ties.... they are 3 phase units that actually change the angular displacement of the 3 phase system goming in to match the one your going to grid tye with and they are some BIG SOBs.... think of them as a regulater but in stead of booosting or buckin voltage their doing it to the phase angles.... pretty damned interesting stuff...

I might chime in on some of the other stuff if I get a chance.... been busy lately... I guess if you find stuff to do when you retire there is a life outa linework... yeah well maybe not...I did just post hehe

for what it's worth...

Edge

I've seen what you are talking about.....wye to delta or vice verse....the two are 30 degrees out.

I thought a zig zag transformer was a grounding transformer to provide a ground reference to the delta side of one of those wye/delta conversions.

There are no secondary bushings on a zig zag.

[Boomer gone soft]

"Truth" is also a big commodity...that...depends on, all sorts of different stuff. Including...IF it's really the complete and ONLY "Truth".

Ya just got to sort thru it all man.

This board is just like any Linecrew I ever been on. There's sarcasim, baiting, lies, and bullshit, And good advice.

Ya just gotta learn to seperate the "Wheat from the Chaft".


Those are good points!

Thanks, Chaff! (not Chaft):D

[Edge]

yeah I guess I was a little under the brew... I had a few things going through the mind at the time Drifter made a good post in 'doors thread..... they are diferent types of pots.. but do similar things...
I was thinking of neutral resistors, phase shifters and zig zag all at the same time and just jumped into the fray....

Drifter prolly don't live to far from one of the last phase shifting pots I saw when working on the border...

It was in Esteban or Estevan? little town in Sask. always makes me thing of the Spanish git fiddler just up from north portal in ND really interesting transmission junction. and neat town...

man I think I'm getting senile...

Bill

[Pootnaigle]

Never seen a zigzag that I am aware of. Industrial sub station transformers round here all have a resistor in series with the earthground and the secondary neutral bushing so that a downed conductor wont create a huge flash when it hits the ground nor will it just lay on the ground and burn. The transformer sees it as load rather than fault current so its less likely to damage the windings inside the transformer, and the line remains hot right up to the point of the break.This only protects on a ground fault, A phase to phase fault would trip the station breaker.

[wtdoor67]

One place I worked did have a "grounding bank" in a couple of small subs. Sadly I did not get much info on them. One sub I recall had 3 circuits emanating from it. A circuit of 20.8 and 2 circuits of 12.470. All the circuits were Wye but had no neutral with the phases. The grounding bank consisted of three 25's or 50's setting on a platform and hooked Wye/Delta. As I recall they had nothing hooked to their secondary and I don't recall the secondary voltage. Probably 240 or 480.

I said something about it to someone and they said it was a grounding bank and was necessary to make the ground relays work.

They had a grounding transformer in another sub I was in but it was a huge mother.

I guess I will have to go to Swampy for an explanation on this.

[heelwinch]

One place I worked did have a "grounding bank" in a couple of small subs. Sadly I did not get much info on them. One sub I recall had 3 circuits emanating from it. A circuit of 20.8 and 2 circuits of 12.470. All the circuits were Wye but had no neutral with the phases. The grounding bank consisted of three 25's or 50's setting on a platform and hooked Wye/Delta. As I recall they had nothing hooked to their secondary and I don't recall the secondary voltage. Probably 240 or 480.

I said something about it to someone and they said it was a grounding bank and was necessary to make the ground relays work.

They had a grounding transformer in another sub I was in but it was a huge mother.

I guess I will have to go to Swampy for an explanation on this.

It's tough eatin shit aint it... some people just chew it up, swallow and admit they ****ed up, others will spend the rest of their lives trying to spit it out and say they werent wrong... what ever,
Pride is a terrible thing to waste.

[Boomer gone soft]

It's tough eatin shit aint it... some people just chew it up, swallow and admit they ****ed up, others will spend the rest of their lives trying to spit it out and say they werent wrong... what ever,
Pride is a terrible thing to waste.

ummmmmmmm........

ok?:confused:

[Boomer gone soft]

I almost didn't join this forum because of all the bickering. Sounds like a bunch of women on this forum. Do you know how many guys go to work to escape the bickering? Last thing is to come on here and read bickering. I ain't no lineman yet and I'll tell you. But both of you claim to be one and neither of you act like one. Cheers.

If your pussy is that sore, you might want to stick to Facebook and tend your livestock......you'll never make it with a crew.:p

[MI-Lineman]

ummmmmmmm........

ok?:confused:

Now's there's a topice he's well experienced in!:D

[Boomer gone soft]

Well First of Mr. Woodhooks....
Ya need to disregard comments from the 37 year old...boomer...who's nothin but a "troubleboy" for a muni..and spends most of his time...while workin...on his company laptop.: D He's a good Man...don't get me wrong here...but...he is what he is....

You'll make with a "Crew"...just fine man...just fine...

Alliant Energy is hardly a muni.....We only service almost all of Iowa, a good chunk of Wisconsin, and Southern Minnesota. Yet another example of failing to check that brain is in gear before disengaging mouth.:rolleyes:

BTW, I'm technically a service rep.....

almost the same as a troubleman....

they'll let a 37 year old JOURNEYMAN LINEMAN keep that job.....as long as I don't go around cutting all of the ties on their wye/wye banks.:rolleyes::eek:

You could also be Pittencream......go ahead and google that one-- you'll be sure to enjoy it.:D

[Boomer gone soft]

Had a close friend get burned on a broken pot ground once. He was an apprentice working with a troubleman. It was a no power but the cutout was still closed. He was wearing leather gloves, climbed up and with one hand touching the pole ground he touched the pot case with his other hand. He was burned slightly on both hands, but he fell and that's where he got his most serious injury. He made a full recovery however.

Swamp eats boogers.

I didn't say anything when this was posted, but in light of the thread in safety about the falling accident.......

all falls are preventable.

Fall restraint is for everybody. If you don't like the bucksqueeze, find something you like.

There should never be another one of these accidents.

[woodhooks]

The first time I used a buck squeeze I grabbed it with one hand and flung it into the creek. I'll keep a safety as long as I can.

[wtdoor67]

What in hell is wrong with Arkansawing or hitchhiking a pole? When climbing a treacherous or nasty pole I always did it. If it was a new pole on a still day, sure I might free climb it. There are some poles that just shouldn't be free climbed.

Ice on a pole? Hell yes you should hitchhike it. Climb on the icey side too. Gotta keep your safety on the dry side.

Show me a big transmission pole with plenty of cracks and knots in a 20 or 30 knot gale and you're just dumb if you try to free climb it.

I can't understand all the people talking about free climbing. If it's not an emergency why would you free climb poles that are hazardous?

Just some idle thoughts I guess. The only time I ever fell really was climbing those short telephone poles. Get careless on those little poles.

[wtdoor67]

It's tough eatin shit aint it... some people just chew it up, swallow and admit they ****ed up, others will spend the rest of their lives trying to spit it out and say they werent wrong... what ever,
Pride is a terrible thing to waste.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen, bitterness is a pill best taken with a chaser. Try it.

You misread it. It was sarcasm, eh?

[heelwinch]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen, bitterness is a pill best taken with a chaser. Try it.

You misread it. It was sarcasm, eh?

Well... so be it... It's hard to find a chaser for shit... but what ever.

According to a few on this board there is NO place for sarcasm in the linemans threads...... might get some one hurt. Maybe there is a lawsuit brewing here... I have been mentally hurt by reading this thread, do you know a good lawyer??

[woodhooks]

What in hell is wrong with Arkansawing or hitchhiking a pole? When climbing a treacherous or nasty pole I always did it. If it was a new pole on a still day, sure I might free climb it. There are some poles that just shouldn't be free climbed.

Ice on a pole? Hell yes you should hitchhike it. Climb on the icey side too. Gotta keep your safety on the dry side.

Show me a big transmission pole with plenty of cracks and knots in a 20 or 30 knot gale and you're just dumb if you try to free climb it.

I can't understand all the people talking about free climbing. If it's not an emergency why would you free climb poles that are hazardous?

Just some idle thoughts I guess. The only time I ever fell really was climbing those short telephone poles. Get careless on those little poles.

I use two safety's on icy poles. One for belting over. Had a guy at work fall off and die from losing grip on a icy pole while belting over.

[Highplains Drifter]

I use two safety's on icy poles. One for belting over. Had a guy at work fall off and die from losing grip on a icy pole while belting over.


I used to have one scare strap that I punched a few holes closer and installed golf cleats in the holes. I would then climb the dry side and the skid would not slip. It was border line when I set it up and finally the showing of to much red made me cut it. That was back in the seventies so I don’t even know what today’s golf cleats look like. I am at the age I don’t do ice poles any more but there is nothing wrong with using two safeties to pass over something on an icy structure.

[wtdoor67]

I did Wy. and W. Nebraska for about 12 years. Climbed lots of iced poles. Always climbed the icy side. Take a hammer and beat the ice off on the way up. I never hurried either. Actually in the safety regs at USBR, I think they required 2 safeties but, I never saw anyone use one.

[heelwinch]

I used to have one scare strap that I punched a few holes closer and installed golf cleats in the holes. I would then climb the dry side and the skid would not slip. It was border line when I set it up and finally the showing of to much red made me cut it. That was back in the seventies so I don’t even know what today’s golf cleats look like. I am at the age I don’t do ice poles any more but there is nothing wrong with using two safeties to pass over something on an icy structure.

I worked 39 years in this trade and the only time I saw a hand climb the "dry" side was because he had NO IDEA of what the hell he was doing. You don't need golf cleats in your skid if you do the job the way it was intended.

That pretty much confirms your knowledge of this trade.

You need to go back to your trying to ban members topics and leave the linework to the lineman on this board... cause you sure aren't one.

I'd love to see you come up here and teach our hands in 1249 how to climb with golf cleats... what a fukkin joke... Good thing you are at the age you don't need to climb anymore... what a fukkin joke, I have never heard anything so stupid in my life... golf cleats...

I was climbing transmission poles in '98 I was in my middle 60's... ice was 2" thick on them poles... I did it with out golf cleats too... That's the funniest shit I have ever heard... golf cleats.

[Highplains Drifter]

I worked 39 years in this trade and the only time I saw a hand climb the "dry" side was because he had NO IDEA of what the hell he was doing. You don't need golf cleats in your skid if you do the job the way it was intended.

That pretty much confirms your knowledge of this trade.

You need to go back to your trying to ban members topics and leave the linework to the lineman on this board... cause you sure aren't one.

I'd love to see you come up here and teach our hands in 1249 how to climb with golf cleats... what a fukkin joke... Good thing you are at the age you don't need to climb anymore... what a fukkin joke, I have never heard anything so stupid in my life... golf cleats...

I was climbing transmission poles in '98 I was in my middle 60's... ice was 2" thick on them poles... I did it with out golf cleats too... That's the funniest shit I have ever heard... golf cleats.


It worked great, climb the dry side and the skid held wonderful. But I can tell they named a street after you....One Way.:D

[wudwoker51]

I used to have one scare strap that I punched a few holes closer and installed golf cleats in the holes. I would then climb the dry side and the skid would not slip. It was border line when I set it up and finally the showing of to much red made me cut it. That was back in the seventies so I don’t even know what today’s golf cleats look like. I am at the age I don’t do ice poles any more but there is nothing wrong with using two safeties to pass over something on an icy structure.

Used two safeties before and always climbed on the ice side when possible. Never thought about golf cleats but I can see where they might come in handy, especially if the pole was totally iced. Good idea. Don't do many iced poles anymore either and can't say I miss them.

[Boomer gone soft]

I use two safety's on icy poles. One for belting over. Had a guy at work fall off and die from losing grip on a icy pole while belting over.

Fall restraint is designed to work on icy poles and conduit, etc......

Nobody should ever fall-- that's a preventable accident. All you have to do is get over the machismo.

[wtdoor67]

2 months later....I was workin in Ft. Pierce, Fla.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wah! Wah! I want my Bucky. Hah hah.

[wtdoor67]

Well... so be it... It's hard to find a chaser for shit.

[johnbellamy]

................

[wtdoor67]

As far as I know most of the original voltages where I worked were probably 2400 Delta. After load became greater then it was realized that by only adding a neutral wire and changing the hookups it could be converted to 4160 and using the same transformers.

From my perspective you have about 2 choices when load becomes greater. Either increase the wire size or increase the voltage. When voltages were decided to be increased from 4 KV it was decided most places to increase to about 12 KV or thereabouts. My question is why did some go to 12.5, and some go to 13.2 ? There are several voltages in that area and below. 4800 Delta, 7200 Delta. What I never understood was why co's with ajacent territories would differ by just a little bit. Engineering arrogance I would imagine. No other answer. If there had been collaboration in this area just think of the savings that could have been realized by having transformer standardized along with insulators etc. NO, we got to do our own thing. That's one area where the Feds. should have stepped in.

To be logical there ought to be only about 3 or 4 distribution voltages in this country. No, we have a whole mishmash of crap.

Transmission voltages are about as silly also.

[Boomer gone soft]

As far as I know most of the original voltages where I worked were probably 2400 Delta. After load became greater then it was realized that by only adding a neutral wire and changing the hookups it could be converted to 4160 and using the same transformers.

From my perspective you have about 2 choices when load becomes greater. Either increase the wire size or increase the voltage. When voltages were decided to be increased from 4 KV it was decided most places to increase to about 12 KV or thereabouts. My question is why did some go to 12.5, and some go to 13.2 ? There are several voltages in that area and below. 4800 Delta, 7200 Delta. What I never understood was why co's with ajacent territories would differ by just a little bit. Engineering arrogance I would imagine. No other answer. If there had been collaboration in this area just think of the savings that could have been realized by having transformer standardized along with insulators etc. NO, we got to do our own thing. That's one area where the Feds. should have stepped in.

To be logical there ought to be only about 3 or 4 distribution voltages in this country. No, we have a whole mishmash of crap.

Transmission voltages are about as silly also.

Those are good points, Danny.

I would bet I can give you the reason for the differences in 1 guess.....money. The engineers simply found the cheapest transformers for their needs.

If we were more standardized, we could provide more reliable service. I know we have several ties with a nearby REA that are mutually beneficial for reducing customer outage minutes......especially on underground faults (for some reason, Alliant prefers radial feeds. I don't understand that, but it's above my pay-grade anyway.)

[barehander]

I was gonna let this one go, but I think alot things have not been answered.

I know you stated in the swamprat thread in the BS section if we are going to talk about a floated wye/wye, you better know what you are talking about because it does exsist.

Then you say you have never seen it, agreed that it was a very poor application, and can not give an example of where it might be used.

At first I thought you stepped on your dick, as a wye/wye transformer is either a padmount, or a three phase OH, not a bank of three OH pots as swamprat says he built.

If it was your intent to teach us about a 3 wire ungrounded wye system that you work on I thought it a strange way to get there.

On your ungrounded 3 wire wye, all single tx's are hooked up delta, all OH are 3 phase units hooked up delta. So all hook ups are delta on your wye system, correct?

Then the "new construction" and conversions are also brought up, 12 to 21, and all three of your subs are now equiped to be tied together.

The only relivance I can see at that point, is if you had some older D/D banks maybe in some out lying areas, at that point you could use the same tx's and now use a floated high side connection to get your ratio, if you had a D/Y hook up, you could do the same, Then you would have your floated Y bank.

When I stated, I have checked a book since I was an ape, it is the truth, when I was going through my apprentiship, I was building line and climbing poles in my head, as well as thinking about alot of other things young guy's think about other than theory.

I am in no position to talk theory, I can only speak from experience, a wye system is what I have almost all of my experience with, wye secondary voltages to me are 120/208, and 277/480.

In wye/wye 120/208 OH banks I have built, they sevrve things like fast food joints, some offices, things like that, with single phase loading, and want three phase to run certain things.

Alot of 277/480 banks for pumps on OH banks, alot of three phase padmounts, for industrial purposes, with single phase loading.

I understand old delta being converted to wye, I understand in your situation the cost of a system neutral as well as all of the new poles for hieght requirements, but glass size has to be adressed, txs have to be changed.

That brings me to what CL said about old mills and things, I still would think all of the older stuff was also delta secondary, not wye, so it is hard for me to understand in that old of a system, they had delta/wye banks.

I am not questioning your knowledge or experience, but you state in your 38 yrs, you have never seen a bank connected as some say exsists.

I believe no one ever questioned the floating high side wye, as it is standard most places on a wye/delta bank, also on 3 wire Y, But I still can not see a floated wye/wye bank as a option, especially on a 120/208 bank.

The bonding on comment was a cheap shot, I will give you credit for balls on that one, as far as I look at this trade, I will take balls over theory anyday. It is rare that you find both, but alot of connections as far as theory goes are possible, but are they relivent to the trade?

As far as working together, you would be foreman, no question there, as you should be.

Ask away John, I can explain it. Again, it's financial, and I think I did explain it but I may not have been thurough enough. I have built this, but only on 1 size bank, 167kva, 2 bushing pri. 4 bushing sec. To this day, we don't have 21kv 167s. I could not tell you what it fed, it was 1979 or 80. If you are under 40, you may not remember what was going on in this country. Carter was Pres., inflation rates were double didget, interest rates were about 22%, so Capital money was hard to come by. My company had massive layoffs. Because the subs were becoming overloaded, it was cheaper to do this conversion the way they did, than to spend more money to upgrade subs, and this is strictly rural. I'm not a fan of engineers, but I think because of financial concerns, the engineers decided that this connection would work.....I also stated that we probably started burning up customer equipment, and ours, and I'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut that these banks have been replaced with padmounts years ago.
As far as insulator upgrade, not always so. As long as the x-arm insulator was double skirted, and on a steel pin, no problem. If it was wood pin constuction, all were upgraded, because they all had to be bonded. Deadends were upgraded from 1 insul. to 2. Some cutouts, and all the arrestors were upgraded. The only time we went to stack insulators is on Trans. underbuild, 397 and larger. Companies in the late 70's were forced to do stupid stuff, and I think they soon realized how stupid this connection was, and payed the price. I know for a fact that there still are Floating-wye/Deltas out there feeding pumps off these 167kva banks.
To this day my company does stupid things, where you just sit back and shake your head.
John, hope that helps, if not ask away.........................

[Boomer gone soft]

Ask away John, I can explain it. Again, it's financial, and I think I did explain it but I may not have been thurough enough. I have built this, but only on 1 size bank, 167kva, 2 bushing pri. 4 bushing sec. To this day, we don't have 21kv 167s. I could not tell you what it fed, it was 1979 or 80. If you are under 40, you may not remember what was going on in this country. Carter was Pres., inflation rates were double didget, interest rates were about 22%, so Capital money was hard to come by. My company had massive layoffs. Because the subs were becoming overloaded, it was cheaper to do this conversion the way they did, than to spend more money to upgrade subs, and this is strictly rural. I'm not a fan of engineers, but I think because of financial concerns, the engineers decided that this connection would work.....I also stated that we probably started burning up customer equipment, and ours, and I'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut that these banks have been replaced with padmounts years ago.
As far as insulator upgrade, not always so. As long as the x-arm insulator was double skirted, and on a steel pin, no problem. If it was wood pin constuction, all were upgraded, because they all had to be bonded. Deadends were upgraded from 1 insul. to 2. Some cutouts, and all the arrestors were upgraded. The only time we went to stack insulators is on Trans. underbuild, 397 and larger. Companies in the late 70's were forced to do stupid stuff, and I think they soon realized how stupid this connection was, and payed the price. I know for a fact that there still are Floating-wye/Deltas out there feeding pumps off these 167kva banks.
To this day my company does stupid things, where you just sit back and shake your head.
John, hope that helps, if not ask away.........................

When you built these, were they banks or one 3 phase transformer? Just curious. Have you seen the opposite? Would it matter; (common core)?

[barehander]

When you built these, were they banks or one 3 phase transformer? Just curious. Have you seen the opposite? Would it matter; (common core)?
These were only on 3 pot 167kva. Anything smaller, we use a 300kva or smaller 3phase pole bolted tx, which can have any type of secondary voltage, or now, those 167's would be replaced with a padmount.

[wtdoor67]

For me a good example of this foolishness is to compare OG&E and PSO. Two co's in the same state mostly. OG&E does have some property in Arkansas. The nominal voltage for PSO is 13.2/7620. For OG&E it's 12470/7200. Now to my way of thinking these two voltages did not occur simultaneously. Surely one of these voltages was first used by one of these co's. When it came time for whichever co. to go to this level, why didn't they just look over their shoulder and say. Why hell, they've already got this voltage going, we'd probably save money because the transformer co's are already making them.

Oh no. it must have been thought. We're not gonna do it like them, we're gonna be a little bit different. We're gonna do a different voltage, although it a little bit different it won't be like them.

Transmission voltages are about as silly.

[johnbellamy]

Ask away John, I can explain it. Again, it's financial, and I think I did explain it but I may not have been thurough enough. I have built this, but only on 1 size bank, 167kva, 2 bushing pri. 4 bushing sec. To this day, we don't have 21kv 167s. I could not tell you what it fed, it was 1979 or 80. If you are under 40, you may not remember what was going on in this country. Carter was Pres., inflation rates were double didget, interest rates were about 22%, so Capital money was hard to come by. My company had massive layoffs. Because the subs were becoming overloaded, it was cheaper to do this conversion the way they did, than to spend more money to upgrade subs, and this is strictly rural. I'm not a fan of engineers, but I think because of financial concerns, the engineers decided that this connection would work.....I also stated that we probably started burning up customer equipment, and ours, and I'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut that these banks have been replaced with padmounts years ago.
As far as insulator upgrade, not always so. As long as the x-arm insulator was double skirted, and on a steel pin, no problem. If it was wood pin constuction, all were upgraded, because they all had to be bonded. Deadends were upgraded from 1 insul. to 2. Some cutouts, and all the arrestors were upgraded. The only time we went to stack insulators is on Trans. underbuild, 397 and larger. Companies in the late 70's were forced to do stupid stuff, and I think they soon realized how stupid this connection was, and payed the price. I know for a fact that there still are Floating-wye/Deltas out there feeding pumps off these 167kva banks.
To this day my company does stupid things, where you just sit back and shake your head.
John, hope that helps, if not ask away.........................




..............

[barehander]

I just have one more question for you, and I will leave you alone, "Did you order the Code Red"!

????????????????

[barehander]

Thanks, I should have worded the insulating part better, it depends on what was there as you state, but certain things as you stated have to be done.

When examples are givin to me, it lets me see what is trying to be accomplished as an end result, how it is applied, ect. I could not get my head around a Floated Y/Y OH 3 pot bank, especially a 120/208 bank, still can't.

I understand clearly now, and I have a better understanding of a ungrounded three wire Y system. Delta connected, system protection, ect., but like I stated before, it would take some getting used to.

I just have one more question for you, and I will leave you alone, "Did you order the Code Red"!

My company does stupid stuff everyday and if i had a dollar for everytime I, or my crew said "God this is stupid", I'd be a lot richer than I am today.
I don't even want to go into what they are doing in regards to safety, again, you would all laugh outloud..............................

[johnbellamy]

????????????????




................

[barehander]

You might have thought you were on trial with all the questions I asked, I always think of that scene when a younger guy questions a guy with more experience.

The whole " You snotty little bastard" line.

You are a better man than me, I would have told me to **** off along time ago.

I thank you for taking the time to explain things to me, I talked to an older foreman who is retired now, he was telling me about that time late 70's early 80's there was alot of guys out of work, thats why there is a generation gap, alot of guys ready to retire, he said that were vary few apprentiships givin if any, so alot of older journeyman and alot of younger ones now. Carter was not much of a president, I did not know how much he affected this trade.
I don't normally take things personal on here, and you and I have had corse words before. As you've talked to the older guys, the mantra was "Get it done", the new mantra is "Get it done safely". Big difference. I'm always willing to share, but if people get pissy with me, it may take awhile to get there. I have always said that I have learned alot from others on here due to the fact that other companies and systems are very different.
As I've always said, I was trained early by Men, to train other Men, and that is what I've always done and the people who know me will say that it's true.
Most of my friends are Lineman, and I think that's the nature of the business. My father used to tell me that are 3 kinds of friends...........
Ones that will help you move a couch.....
Ones that will help you move a dead body.....
And those that will help you move a dead body on a couch.......
I will guarantee that 90% of the people I know will be in that last catagory.
No harm, no foul.........us old guys are here to help.

[amarkey09]

I know with a Y-Y the most important thing is grounding but I can honestly say I have never hear about floating the neutral. Wye-Delta you are supposed to float the neutral but I am sure it would still work you just lose the ground that you would have with the neutral. Im pretty new to line work but what i have learned from my line school is that now a days it would be rare to do this. just putting in my 2 cents about this :)