tower rescue

[bmell]

I'm a lineman at a utility that has recently began to rethink tower rescue. While we have a significant amount of steel, the vast majority of work we do day-to-day is distribution. The view of tower rescue here has traditionally been hope you don't need to and, if you do, use your handline like you would for pole top rescue.

I'm interested in what other utilities do for tower rescue, particularly those that do steel a lot. BPA and SRP come to mind.

[LAMartin.CVEC]

This has been discussed here before.

I believe Mr. Edge and Mr. Copperlineman both agree that "ropes that rescue" is the hands down authority on highline rescue.

Check out their web site at

http://www.ropesthatrescue.com/

LAMartin
Journeyman Div III
CVEC

[Pootnaigle]

I would venture a guess That Steve Batts could help you find some answers to that also.

[barehander]

I'm a lineman at a utility that has recently began to rethink tower rescue. While we have a significant amount of steel, the vast majority of work we do day-to-day is distribution. The view of tower rescue here has traditionally been hope you don't need to and, if you do, use your handline like you would for pole top rescue.

I'm interested in what other utilities do for tower rescue, particularly those that do steel a lot. BPA and SRP come to mind.

Good question............I hope I'm not the only one on this site that has dealt with this problem. I started my quest in 1996 after a friend got hurt, and died on a tower, and the crew couldn't get him down (long story).
First, this is what OSHA has to say about it.

Answer
With regard to rescuing employees from personal fall arrest systems, the provision in Subpart M that addresses this is §1926.502(d)(20), which states:


§1926.502 Fall protection systems criteria and practices.
(d) Personal fall arrest systems.
(20) The employer shall provide for prompt rescue of employees in the event of a fall or shall assure that employees are able to rescue themselves.


As explained in interpretation letters to J. Nigel Ellis (May 11, 1999) (http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=23328) and Charles Hill (August 14, 2000) (http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=24110), the particular hazard that §1926.502(d)(20) addresses is being suspended by the fall arrest system after an arrested fall. In the Hill letter, we stated:



, as required under §1926.502(d)(20), is not defined in the standard. The particular hazard that §1926.502(d)(20) addresses is being suspended by the fall arrest system after a fall. While an employee may be safely suspended in a body harness for a longer period than from a body belt, the word "prompt" requires that rescue be performed quickly -- in time to prevent serious injury to the worker.


You note that electrical utility and telecommunications workers sometimes work alone and that the employees' "status is maintained through normal work rules and operating procedures." We recognize that there are a wide range of variables and circumstances between worksites. The standard requires that, to the extent feasible, a reliable system be in place to ensure that rescue will be prompt. Precisely what is required to comply with this provision in a remote location will depend on what is feasible under the particular circumstances. The range of feasible options available in remote locations may be more limited than in more populated areas.



LAMartin is correct, Ropes That Rescue is the leader in this field. Reed Thorne is the master of rescue. He also was a Lineman for So. Cal. Edison and has a passion for teaching lineman. What he teaches is simple techniques and is only limited by your imagination. New studies on suspension trauma has brought to light how dangerous hanging in your harness can be. In 10min. damage can start, and if you don't know that even if you are lucky enough to get a Lineman down using a handline, you also need to know that if you lay that person down when they reach the ground, you could kill them when all the blood that has acumulated in the legs, rushes to the heart......................



Here's a link with some snypit vids of tower worker and fireman training that he does....



http://www.rescueresponse.com/store/videos_rope_rescue_techniques_equipment.html

[climbsomemore]

Reed has a website. I have been through one of his tower schools. http://www.ropesthatrescue.com/

Your management will balk at the expense of getting a crew kitted out to do technical rescue... Ours did. Technical climbing with rope and gear on transmission has been part the practices in Europe for a long time... the same equipment used to rescue is also part of the methods they use to get to the work.

[neil macgregor]

we have to carry a rescue kit in every van and on our cherry pickers
we use ABS rescue kits dont know if they sell them over your way

[230kv_barehand]

Reed at Ropes That Rescue is the man for the job. Hands down. Great guy to boot.

[barehander]

Been gone awhile. Thanks for the pat on my ego.

Tower rescues is no different than pole rescue. It is the ability to get a person to the ground safety, past any obstacle in your way. Same with pole top rescue around drops, other lines, and even bushes. You don't have time with a serious injury, to find and rig special equipment. Hell if I started up a pole to rescue someone and come to telephone drops or services that looked like they would be a problem of a fast rescue of a brother, then they would get cut on my way up.

I viewed some of the videos listed and the rescue was straight forward. if you are in the middle of the tower, taking time to move a victim is uncalled for skate the down line on the up line and get him down.

Welcome back Batts, I really don't think you need your ego patted (don't take that the wrong way). Tower rescue is a lot different than pole top rescue. The main problem on towers is the harness. Most only have 1 attachment point, and that is at the shoulder on the back for fall protection. If your down on the structure with only that attachment point, I have to pick you up your height, plus any obstruction to get by. The harness is the secret. The "specialized eqipment" just makes the process easier. It can be installed and connected in less than 1 minute.
We all know you could get lucky with what ropes you have in the air at the time, but we all know most handlines are in very bad condition, and I would sure hate to shock load a handline and drop someone. All rescue depends on the status of the victim. If the injury is severe then by god, I'll do what it takes. Thank goodness, I've never had to do Tower Rescue, but I have close freinds who have, and it turned into a nightmare because they relied on what they learned on Pole Top. It didn't work.
My biggest concern was top arm rescue, not many rigging options. I took that same crew to watch Reed do just that. When they saw how he did it, they all dropped their heads, and the comment was...."I wish I'd have known that then".
It was a very powerful moment.

Glad you're back, always fun to bantor with you.

[230kv_barehand]

To compare the two is nuts IMHO. I've seen and been around both sides and pole top and tower rescue is a WHOLE DIFFERENT world. Especially with extreme high voltage.

I'd hate to see someone read the wrong posts and try out some of this stuff and sure enough kill someone. Barehanding is a whole different animal with tower rescue. Reed and Company wasnt just playing in front of the cameras on the History Channel, they done it because thats the way its done or someone dies.

[barehander]

You know what pisses me off. A bunch of numb nut jerks, that has never been anywhere and done less. THINKING YOU KNOW SHIT!!!

What is so hard about dropping a man off a GODDAMNED TOWER. Top arm middle arm goat peak, hot or dead. We never hand special rigging and most goddamned companies properties worked on didn't require special rigging.

I am talking tying a loop figure 8 it over his legs taking another rope and securing around chest. Since I never worker towers with a 10 goddamned man crew like those videos I guess a 3 man crew could just let a man die. IT IS IGNORANT JERKS LIKE YOU THAT I AM SO GODDAMNED GLAD I AM RETIRED.
I AM GOING TO TELL YOU SOMETHING ELSE. IN THE 1960S WE WHERE TAUGHT TO CLIMB UP AND PUT A MAN ON YOUR SAFETY AND START CPR. AND CARRY A MAN DOWN THE POLE.
NOW TAKE IT FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH IMHO YOU KNOW JACK. AND IF THOSE JERKS WANT TO KNOW HOW ONE MAN ON THE GROUND AND ONE MAN IN THE AIR CAN RESCUE ANOTHER I WILL BE MORE THAN GLAD TO CHARGE THEM $600,000 TO SHOW THEM.
IMHO WAITING FOR INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO RESCUE A MAN IN TROUBLE, BY A COMPANY MAKING MILLIONS WITH THEIR RESCUE VIDEO'S WHEN YOU SHOULD HAVE LEARNED IT AS A FIRST YEAR GRUNT MAKES YOU A PISS POOR EXCUSE AS A LINEMAN

IMHO!!!!

Man, I remember years ago being trained to do CPR on pole top rescue, that was a while ago....
I just have 1 question, with your loop figure 8 and a loop around the chest, how do you pick them up with only one guy on the ground?

[barehander]

You see that is the problem with every person that never worked small crews. We installed big pipe bumpers on all our trucks When a 5 ton
Skookum dollie froze up under load and exploded, an apprentice named Arky Stevens and a Lineman I won't mention his name lifted my ass off a tower in Nowata OK when part of the skookum fractured my skull knocking me out and left a permanent scare above my right eye. Arky weighed 140 or less John weighted in at 180 and I weighted in at 206. But every load we picked with a pickup and heavy 7/8 hand-line weighted in at 400 lbs Knowing John I think he was quite capable of lifted dead weight of 250.
You do know what an emergency is don't you? If not review the bucket truck fire where a man did what he had to do to save fellow workers. In some instances your ground person might have to take slack and you roll a man out into the load.
Or you might have to rig as high as the static. There are times on a highline when any other crew might be 5 or 10 minutes away. What do you do wait. I have notice in the accident section where a crew waited for the fire deptment to help with rescue and you people was all put out.
There is no set standard to get a guy down. I am going to tell you right now I have never wore a body harness. Never used more than a line belt or steel belt in a bucket or on a tower. If I was landing steel very few times we buckled off. I would have taken a fall to being crushed with a 20,000 lb. pick of a tower. Jesus get a grip on what your working with.

Just like pole top rescue. If a man was buckled above an arm, you can either walk up between his legs and drop him below the arm or cut him in the clear and drop him into the hand line.

But I don't have to worry about it, because at 66 I will never have to worry about it again. But maybe the Rodeo should stick this into the program. After seeing the speed climbing and pole top rescue last year I pity anyone actually hurt.
Right now I have to go back out in this 102 degree heat and rig up and put a saddle tank back on my Telelect. I have a guy coming tomorrow to buy it.

I knew the answer before I asked. I knew you used a vehicle, and as I've stated, you could probably pull it off, as it happened to you. I realize that you've worked enough structures where you couldn't get a vehicle to also, and that's where I was going. That's a whole new situation, and that's what happened to my friends. And yes, I know what an emergency is, and yes, I have worked on 3-4 man Transmission crews.
By the way, not all towers have goat peaks or statics, and top arm rescue isn't as easy as just dropping a 250lb man into a handline. More information and training isn't a bad thing. Just knowing how to use re-direction and how to use the structure itself to rig to can only help.

Stay cool and I hope you get the truck sold. It's supposed to be a record Low/High....87degrees. Next week...112....

[230kv_barehand]

You know what pisses me off. A bunch of numb nut jerks, that has never been anywhere and done less. THINKING YOU KNOW SHIT!!!

What is so hard about dropping a man off a GODDAMNED TOWER. Top arm middle arm goat peak, hot or dead. We never hand special rigging and most goddamned companies properties worked on didn't require special rigging.

I am talking tying a loop figure 8 it over his legs taking another rope and securing around chest. Since I never worker towers with a 10 goddamned man crew like those videos I guess a 3 man crew could just let a man die. IT IS IGNORANT JERKS LIKE YOU THAT I AM SO GODDAMNED GLAD I AM RETIRED.
I AM GOING TO TELL YOU SOMETHING ELSE. IN THE 1960S WE WHERE TAUGHT TO CLIMB UP AND PUT A MAN ON YOUR SAFETY AND START CPR. AND CARRY A MAN DOWN THE POLE.
NOW TAKE IT FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH IMHO YOU KNOW JACK. AND IF THOSE JERKS WANT TO KNOW HOW ONE MAN ON THE GROUND AND ONE MAN IN THE AIR CAN RESCUE ANOTHER I WILL BE MORE THAN GLAD TO CHARGE THEM $600,000 TO SHOW THEM.
IMHO WAITING FOR INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO RESCUE A MAN IN TROUBLE, BY A COMPANY MAKING MILLIONS WITH THEIR RESCUE VIDEO'S WHEN YOU SHOULD HAVE LEARNED IT AS A FIRST YEAR GRUNT MAKES YOU A PISS POOR EXCUSE AS A LINEMAN

IMHO!!!!

Batts if you thought I actually cared about your thoughts I wouldnt have posted in this thread to begin with.

Because I want to learn more makes me a piss poor excuse as a lineman? Its the know it all lineman like yourself that can get people killed. If you cant handle me pissing in your Wheaties because I said its a different world (like I said since when you need a truck bumper for pole top?) and your dumbass explained why I said what I said.

[old lineman]

You must have been an SOB to work with Sbatts.
Seems as though you haven't got a nice comment in you.
Glad we never met!
Go back to the first post and see how a genuine question turns into a mud slinging brawl.
Your no better than the worst on this site.
Scum.
The Old Lineman

[230kv_barehand]

Batts I didn't twist your words you did it for me. You are no different than Swamp but act like you're the innocent one. I simply gave an opinion and you flipped your lid because it didn't jive with yours. Grow up and learn there IS more than one way to skin a cat. Reed is not just a $300,000 teacher (I don't know what he charges, barehander knows) he was also a lineman so he knows a thing or two while you're bashing someone you don't know!

I simply said its two different worlds WHICH IT IS, you can try to "dumb it down" all you want but its simply not true. So call me what you will, it just shows your childish ways as usual on this board. Its bullheaded ways like you have that get people killed. Funny you mention my qualifications but yet I'm sure you'll keep yours shut about your past. I'm done with your thread hi-jack, I've said my peace about Reed and his NEXT TO NONE knowledge about ropes and safety. You can beat your chest all you want and sling insults but fact is Reed would put you to shame when it comes to rigging and rescue and it wouldn't even be funny.

[heelwinch]

I've done and seen more than one hand lowered down with a truck or a cat.... try that to day and I can only imagine what would happen if it failed.

You can't fart sideways without threat of a lawsuit... why would you want to do it any other way than by the book.... it works, use it.

[old lineman]

Batts I didn't twist your words you did it for me. You are no different than Swamp but act like you're the innocent one. I simply gave an opinion and you flipped your lid because it didn't jive with yours. Grow up and learn there IS more than one way to skin a cat. Reed is not just a $300,000 teacher (I don't know what he charges, barehander knows) he was also a lineman so he knows a thing or two while you're bashing someone you don't know!

I simply said its two different worlds WHICH IT IS, you can try to "dumb it down" all you want but its simply not true. So call me what you will, it just shows your childish ways as usual on this board. Its bullheaded ways like you have that get people killed. Funny you mention my qualifications but yet I'm sure you'll keep yours shut about your past. I'm done with your thread hi-jack, I've said my peace about Reed and his NEXT TO NONE knowledge about ropes and safety. You can beat your chest all you want and sling insults but fact is Reed would put you to shame when it comes to rigging and rescue and it wouldn't even be funny.

Amen to what you think of Reed's expertise.
It's not worth your time to call down Sbatts. He's the only good lineman who walked on the face of the earth don't you know.
The Old lineman

[johnbellamy]

You must have been an SOB to work with Sbatts.
Seems as though you haven't got a nice comment in you.
Glad we never met!
Go back to the first post and see how a genuine question turns into a mud slinging brawl.
Your no better than the worst on this site.
Scum.
The Old Lineman

Will this type of abusive name calling and baiting stop, I would hope action will be taken so that "old lineman" attempts to insite Mr. Batts into a verbal conflict in attempts to get Mr. Batts banned from this board as he has tried multiple times in this thread to attack his person.

Scum, is this respectful? Than the latter, questioning Mr. Batts qualifications and expertise.

It is very clear what old linemans intentions are, I hope Mr. Batts does not sink to that level.

[230kv_barehand]

Amen to what you think of Reed's expertise.
It's not worth your time to call down Sbatts. He's the only good lineman who walked on the face of the earth don't you know.
The Old lineman

I agree old lineman you hit it on the head. I simply answered a question and then disagreed with Batts attempt to "compare" pole top rescue and tower rescue then was called every name in the book and attacked and yet just the other day he makes a post about being tired of people doing that and yet he's the worst one! Time to look in the mirror for Mr. Batts.

Obviously he's never talked to or seen Reed in true action. The History Channel does him no justice. Reed is a class act and I do not know him personally but have talked to him a few times through friends and he really knows his stuff. Batts can dog the fact he charges for his services but a man HAS to eat ya know? If you dont agree with Batts you're the dumbest S.O.B. alive according to him.

Thanks old lineman for the post especially for the props on Reed. He didnt ask for anyone to dog him and is a stand up guy from what I've talked to him and friends I have that DO know him personally. He's a very cool guy that loves his job and loves the fact that his knowledge with ropes will save lives and has probably saved lives in the past. Its TOO GOOD to not listen to him IMHO.

[230kv_barehand]

Will this type of abusive name calling and baiting stop, I would hope action will be taken so that "old lineman" attempts to insite Mr. Batts into a verbal conflict in attempts to get Mr. Batts banned from this board as he has tried multiple times in this thread to attack his person.

Scum, is this respectful? Than the latter, questioning Mr. Batts qualifications and expertise.

It is very clear what old linemans intentions are, I hope Mr. Batts does not sink to that level.

But yet Batts is cool for attacking others when not even provoked? Kind of a two sided post there dont ya think? Its ok for Batts to do one thing, but not ok for others to give him a taste of his own medicine? I call b.s. brotha.

Kinda makes me sick to say this but Swamp is dogged for this same type of stuff but yet you glorify Batts for doing the same shit? WTF?

[johnbellamy]

But yet Batts is cool for attacking others when not even provoked? Kind of a two sided post there dont ya think? Its ok for Batts to do one thing, but not ok for others to give him a taste of his own medicine? I call b.s. brotha.

Kinda makes me sick to say this but Swamp is dogged for this same type of stuff but yet you glorify Batts for doing the same shit? WTF?

Read this thread from the beginning, Batts was asked to respond, he did with his opinion, then, you question it, got smartass and ya pissed him off, then he changes his tone, the thred changes.

I have seen Batts on this board, so have you, you know what he is like, you poke him, ya start shit, then ya wonder why ge goes off, then you flip it and play the victim, its bullshit you know it.

Now you bring the rat into a thread or post that he is not involved in, has got nothin to do with, why to start shit with me, now I will tell you strait up, I am tired of flickin you no name ****s off like buggers, you want something with me, PM and we will handle it.

Now back to this thread, Reed, whatever, I will tell you this don't know him, don't care, you can suck his dick if ya want, means nothin to me, I bet old lineman and he can clear this up or not, but I bet he has some kinda deal with this guy where money is involved, through training or selling shit, again I could give a shit, but he is baiting Batts here, that I am sure of, then he is gonna cry foul and play the bitch, and Batts will get banned.

I will say this, Batts does not bait people, but can't help himself from responding to stupid shit to try and clear things up, you don't want shit with him, leave him alone.

I will also tell you this, if I needed rescued from a tower, I would want this Reed to do the rescue, and not Batts, ya want to know why?

Because by the time Reed got there, did his little riggin show, with all of his special ropes and shit, I would probably be dead, which is exactly what a guy like me would want.

I will also state I could give a flyin **** if they want to ban me from this board, cause it means jackshit to a guy like me, but Batts likes it here, don't bait him, don't poke him, and you will see he won't start shit just to start shit like that rat who's dick you keep suckin does.

[230kv_barehand]

And you come along to try and poke the fire and support your buddy Batts. How sweet!

[johnbellamy]

You do any type of work on any type of structure, how you would attempt a rescue, or any type of circumstances or conditions that would impair you should be discussed.

You will have your equipment, tools, ect. of the task to be preformed, what kind of rigging you will need, what kind of wieght you will be lifting.

When trucks, snocats, trachoes, cats, ect. are not available, and you are doing work on a remote tower, just what type of work are you doing that you would not be able to get a man down from a structure? I am sure you will at least have you handline, and or picking line, and the skoocums or extra handline blocks to rig him.

There is nothing wrong with extra training or rigging courses, but any specialized training ,one has to become proficient at it, one must practice it, you use it or you loose it.

Lets just call this what it is, a cheap way to advertise for this Reed. Just like the bucksqeeze, it is a hustle, plain and simple, and it will be pushed on you by guys like old lineman and he will diguise it as a practice that ever company should have and this little rigging package that is so convienantly put together should be a requirement, and be on every truck on every crew, and he will mask it as he just wants to save lives. How much is your cut old lineman?

You want to pimp this shit on this site, at least you could do is buy some advertising space, if you have a good product, and if guys are dumb enough to buy into it, don't care, but at least be honest and let everybody know that you are makin money off of this. If you are not prove me wrong.

[heelwinch]

Yes I was a bitch to work for, The men that did work for me, enjoyed the most overtime, because we hit a job we took the hardest jobs, making deals on time expenses and in some cases a higher scale and a guaranteed 40. I kept the same people, and when the moved on, became the same hard asses as me, and have heard their names cussed right here in this board.. Matter of fact in New Jersey, some dock hands called the hall, because the amount of wire we were stringing, we had to be doing something ratty, and unsafe. The hall spent two days watching are wire stringing, using hot arms instead of the way the power company did it bolting ridge pins to the end of the arms, a four drum puller instead of the one drum and little light weight cat lines.

And heel I didn't know saving a mans life had to be by the book. The whole thing is to save the life, and not get yourself hurt.

And you old lineman, Wouldn't have lasted a day with any of my crews. You would have quit or I would have fired your ass with a no rehire to the hall. Now you go and watch every one of those videos, and you better stay working where are because your shit wouldn't fly in most places.

When I said by the "book" I mean the way you were taught in what ever form or fashion that might have been.
Do you want some 23 yr old app. trying to lower you down off a 200' structure, after you passed out from heat exaustion, Using the method he read about on Powerlineman.com, thought he new what he was doing but really never tried it before??????

No thanks.

I'm not saying anyones method is right or wrong, I'm saying you all have practiced one way or another, let's use that one.
If you haven't ( I know that was the original topic) than you need to let the Supt. do the climbing and grunt for him until they come up with a rescue plan.

It ain't rocket science but it must be taught. I didn't want any clumsome with me that couldn't get my ass out of a bind, it should be the same for everyone.

[LostArt]

Everyone take a chill pill please. I don't want to move an informative workline thread to EAYOR (Enter At Your Own Risk----AKA the Trash Can).

The flaming and baiting must stop. Enough.

[barehander]

Everyone take a chill pill please. I don't want to move an informative workline thread to EAYOR (Enter At Your Own Risk----AKA the Trash Can).

The flaming and baiting must stop. Enough.

Thanks.........

[johnbellamy]

Thanks.........

Clarification...........

[johnbellamy]

Everyone take a chill pill please. I don't want to move an informative workline thread to EAYOR (Enter At Your Own Risk----AKA the Trash Can).

The flaming and baiting must stop. Enough.

As an unbias moderator, whom are you adressing.

Clarification...........

Thanks..........

[barehander]

Clarification...........

The person who started this thread asked a legitimate question, people gave their opinions.....and then it turned into name calling. It was the guys first post...and he hasn't showed back up. It's pretty sad that a simple question can get this out of hand, that's all.

[johnbellamy]

The person who started this thread asked a legitimate question, people gave their opinions.....and then it turned into name calling. It was the guys first post...and he hasn't showed back up. It's pretty sad that a simple question can get this out of hand, that's all.

But you have to aknowledge the point at the thread went south, and how it got there, you also know there are certain personalities on this board that people are aware of, certain things even though masked or polished are still said to incite a conflict.

Also how 230 was quick to involve members that had nothing to do with this topic at all as to make a point. Also old lineman obiviously has a financal stake in this issue, Scum , cocksucker, what is the difference when being used to incite conflict?

I did not adress 230 at all, again he chose to adress me.

Then a blanket statement by the moderator.

Thanks for your response.

[barehander]

But you have to aknowledge the point at the thread went south, and how it got there, you also know there are certain personalities on this board that people are aware of, certain things even though masked or polished are still said to incite a conflict.

Also how 230 was quick to involve members that had nothing to do with this topic at all as to make a point. Also old lineman obiviously has a financal stake in this issue, Scum , cocksucker, what is the difference when being used to incite conflict?

I did not adress 230 at all, again he chose to adress me.

Then a blanket statement by the moderator.

Thanks for your response.
I understand what you're saying, but then, you've been away for awhile and it is now a more kinder, gentler, politicaly correct site because of the wishes of a few.
I have had to hold my tounge since all this has taken place. It's just sad that a guy makes his first post and now may never come back.

[johnbellamy]

I understand what you're saying, but then, you've been away for awhile and it is now a more kinder, gentler, politicaly correct site because of the wishes of a few.
I have had to hold my tounge since all this has taken place. It's just sad that a guy makes his first post and now may never come back.

I hope that is not the case, and people should be allowed to ask questions without being harrassed.

But I also think some will try and get certain members banned by inciting a conflict with that member. We are adults and should be able to show some restraint.

So I hope it does not turn into he got banned, so lets get him banned.

My intentions here where to give Batts a heads up, if this board is important to him, which I believe it is, to watch his temper and his words, because I believe it is clear that some here want him banned.

I understand the new board, I also know the consequense, so I will stay out of things, and keep it in the wood shed, if I get banned, no cryin here.

[barehander]

I hope that is not the case, and people should be allowed to ask questions without being harrassed.

But I also think some will try and get certain members banned by inciting a conflict with that member. We are adults and should be able to show some restraint.

So I hope it does not turn into he got banned, so lets get him banned.

My intentions here where to give Batts a heads up, if this board is important to him, which I believe it is, to watch his temper and his words, because I believe it is clear that some here want him banned.

I understand the new board, I also know the consequense, so I will stay out of things, and keep it in the wood shed, if I get banned, no cryin here.

All I can say is the advice my freind says...." I used to talk 80% and think 20%, I now do the opposite."

[rob8210]

Here is my 2 cents , for what it is worth. I believe that when a man is hurt getting him down and on the way to the hospital is top priority, personally I would use whatever means I had on hand to get er done quick. This is a great topic, everyone's ideas just help make it better. Thanks

[johnbellamy]

And would hope all lineman feel the same way.

In an attempt to rescue, you have a 5 min window, after that in the case of cardiac arrest, after 5 min it is no longer a rescue, it is a recovery.

In other cases, things can be done, and even if they are in a situation where they are bleeding severly or heat stroke things can be done on the pole or tower to help before actually getting them to the ground, even though they might be in shock or disconfort, time can be extented if necessary.

I have been up towers to change out light bulbs on river crossings, no handline was packed up there, or have climbed towers in the middle of the Columbia to remove old bird guard or just climbing towers to check if bells were flashed over, all solo on the structures, no way to get down other than climb down. Also have been up plenty of wood solo as a troubleman, or have had a grunt or somebody on the ground that all they could do is call for a hertz if something went wrong.

I do not believe I am the only one who has done those types of things, I think it is part of this trade and some of the hazzards that are associated with it.

I am not saying these are good work practices, and you can call it pure lazyness if you want, but not always having your "life line" with you is just reality.

I think tower rescue is something you must know, just as pole resue is, or you have no reason to be on either, also bucket rescue as well as vault rescue.

But a thread like this you can be told 20 differnt ways by 20 differnt guys, so whatever company you work for at the time should already have methods an procedures in place, make sure you are proficient in thoughs practices.

I believe he states BPA is one he was looking for information from, great choice, they are a goverment entity and I am sure the tower rescue program is above and beyond any minimum standards required.

I would encourage his company to contact them, and when they have there annual training sessions, that they would allow there employees to participate, and become certified and then eventualy be able to certify themselves as they would adapt the same program.

I would say more on the subject, but I am pretty sure BH just told me to shut up in a nice way, so I will take his advice.;)

But it is all rigging

[barehander]

And would hope all lineman feel the same way.

In an attempt to rescue, you have a 5 min window, after that in the case of cardiac arrest, after 5 min it is no longer a rescue, it is a recovery.

In other cases, things can be done, and even if they are in a situation where they are bleeding severly or heat stroke things can be done on the pole or tower to help before actually getting them to the ground, even though they might be in shock or disconfort, time can be extented if necessary.

I have been up towers to change out light bulbs on river crossings, no handline was packed up there, or have climbed towers in the middle of the Columbia to remove old bird guard or just climbing towers to check if bells were flashed over, all solo on the structures, no way to get down other than climb down. Also have been up plenty of wood solo as a troubleman, or have had a grunt or somebody on the ground that all they could do is call for a hertz if something went wrong.

I do not believe I am the only one who has done those types of things, I think it is part of this trade and some of the hazzards that are associated with it.

I am not saying these are good work practices, and you can call it pure lazyness if you want, but not always having your "life line" with you is just reality.

I think tower rescue is something you must know, just as pole resue is, or you have no reason to be on either, also bucket rescue as well as vault rescue.

But a thread like this you can be told 20 differnt ways by 20 differnt guys, so whatever company you work for at the time should already have methods an procedures in place, make sure you are proficient in thoughs practices.

I believe he states BPA is one he was looking for information from, great choice, they are a goverment entity and I am sure the tower rescue program is above and beyond any minimum standards required.

I would encourage his company to contact them, and when they have there annual training sessions, that they would allow there employees to participate, and become certified and then eventualy be able to certify themselves as they would adapt the same program.

I would say more on the subject, but I am pretty sure BH just told me to shut up in a nice way, so I will take his advice.;)

But it is all rigging

No....That's advice I'm taking, so I stay out of the name calling game.

[barehander]

Now, back to the topic. Bmell asked a good question, the first response mentioned Reed, and it went downhill from there. A lot of people have very passionate opinions on this subject, and I wouldn't argue with any of them on how to get their partner off of a structure. Unfortunately, with the introduction of the harness, and fall protection, OSHA has forced Utilties to rethink rescue on towers. 100% fall restraint on towers is coming, ground to ground, whether anyone likes it or not. The standard for fall protection is 5000lbs (Human Load), and rescue must incorperate that 5000lb standard. As stated before, companies are worried about their liabilities on this subject. The old school thinking on "use what ya brung" won't cut it anymore. You wouldn't under rig a deadend, why would you take a chance and under rig a human, your friend. That's why all of this "specialized rigging" is rated at or above 5000lbs. There's been a lot off talk about just using a handline. Well, I've been in this trade almost 40yrs, and you may know what that handlines strength was when it was new, but I've seen those handlines, very few are new. You may have used it to pull out your pickup a month ago. Would you want to be attached to that same handline? I seriously dought it.
It's been implied that people on this site, and Reed himself, are making money off of the equipment used. I know for a fact, Reed make $0 off of the equipment. Yes, he does have a pully system, the Aztek. He has a harness made by Yates. He also has a cool little pully made by Rock Exotica, but as he says, the profits won't even pay the electric bill. You don't need any of these to do rescue. He doesn't sell "rescue packages" like most of the trainers do. He just teaches the concept, and you can do with it what you please.
Now, to address Mr. Batts contention that everyone here should watch these vids, and, oh my, look at how many people are involved, and, my God, people are going to Die! Well, they are what they are, training vids. The ones for tower workers is at Tuscon Electric during a training session, the whole Transmission crew was there. It works if there are only 2 people, 3 people, or 12. The other vids are for first responders, the Fire Dept., for, let's say a single worker goes down on a tower, and they show up first. Or a tresspasser who climbs the tower and is electricuted or freezes.
Like it or not, tower rescue is coming, and as go the Utilties, so goes the Contractor world and I know that for a fact. You can go with the flow, or you can find another way to make a living.
Having said all this crap (and some of you may think that) I have to share a story I heard Reed tell once........."If you're driving down the road, and you come upon an accident & the car is upside down, you get out and approach the car with the person hanging in the seatbelt, you stabilize them and wait for the EMT's to get there. They could have a broken neck or back and you wouldn't want to do further damage. Now, if you come onto the same scenario...and the car is on fire, you do what you have to do to get them out of there, broken neck or not." The "Good Samaritan Law" covers you in that situation......unfortunately, it doesn't cover you in this Industry. Just remember, do not cause further injury......
I'm off my soapbox..........

[old lineman]

I see John has come up with another minute. For your information after 4 minutes brain damage begins to occur.
Perhaps that's splitting hairs but it's a rule of thumb that has been established for decades.
5,000 lbs. applies to fall arrest not fall restraint as in the Buck Squeeze, Pole Choker, or any other brand. Thats why a shock absorber isn't required with those systems.
Rescue systems have adopted the more stringent standard because they are designed to fall in line. That's why the block and tackle has to be certified for supporting humans.
There isn't a handline block out there that is designed to that standard. They are all designed by load rating not rated to support humans. Also the point about the strength deteriorating over time is an excelent point I've used raty handlines for years after they have been abraded or cut or just dragged through the mud. Don't try to tie me to one of those 175 feet in the air.
The fall won't kill you, the sudden stop will!
Some companies designed confined space rescue systems with boat winches as the device providing a mechanical advantage. It is stamped right into the metal on the drum "NOT FOR SUPPORTING HUMANS", yet they made them and people bought them. Not anymore with the exposure to litigation.
Bad product by unintelligent or ignorant (as in not knowing) designers. You have to pay for the assurance that the product meets all the standards but the manufacturer can sleep in peace.
The Old Lineman

[johnbellamy]

You can't argue, rules are rules, so what do we do, I guess cease all linework until we are all in possesion of the proper rope and blocks, and we should schedule Reed to properly train us.

I said 5 min makes it a recovery, you are right about 4 min, brain damage will set in, I guess I should watch the vids, I am sure all rescues are done under 4 min.

I will stop, and in noway attempt any kind of rescue until all crews are properly fitted and trained and are in compliance with old lineman an BH regulations, because if you are doing work without it, you are just asking to live with the guilt.

I would also suggest when Reed shows us all the proper way, so we would not have to live with any guilt, that we pass the hat, a guys got to eat, I was not aware of his hardship.

I apoligize to old lineman for me to insinuate that you make any kind of money off of this, or that you in anyway sell any kind of special rope, or rigging packages, or endorse fall arrest like the bucksqueeze and that your training you provide to be in compliance with all of these new regulations, or that you saying that using a handline block, or that we use dirty, frayed rope, and we are pretty much irresponible, untrained, unqualified murders and would have to live with guilt if we were to attempt such a rescue. Well doggone it, that would just make me a dagum, lowlife SCUM.

My bad. Your heart is in the right place. I will leave this topic to the experts, any suggestions or comments I have made on this topic, I would ask for the moderator to remove them, and please send me to the wood shed where I belong, and maybe in the future, say 20 yrs from now as I do not find myself in jail for attempted murder for trying to rescue a fellow lineman with a handline block or any other piece of rigging not properly certified or up to proper code, I might venture back into this lineman forum, and throw my 40 yr's of experience around then when I post something I could pull that card.

Probably not on second thought, cause by then old lineman will have changed his handle to really old lineman, and BH will just pull the 60 yr card.

[barehander]

You can't argue, rules are rules, so what do we do, I guess cease all linework until we are all in possesion of the proper rope and blocks, and we should schedule Reed to properly train us.

I said 5 min makes it a recovery, you are right about 4 min, brain damage will set in, I guess I should watch the vids, I am sure all rescues are done under 4 min.

I will stop, and in noway attempt any kind of rescue until all crews are properly fitted and trained and are in compliance with old lineman an BH regulations, because if you are doing work without it, you are just asking to live with the guilt.

I would also suggest when Reed shows us all the proper way, so we would not have to live with any guilt, that we pass the hat, a guys got to eat, I was not aware of his hardship.

I apoligize to old lineman for me to insinuate that you make any kind of money off of this, or that you in anyway sell any kind of special rope, or rigging packages, or endorse fall arrest like the bucksqueeze and that your training you provide to be in compliance with all of these new regulations, or that you saying that using a handline block, or that we use dirty, frayed rope, and we are pretty much irresponible, untrained, unqualified murders and would have to live with guilt if we were to attempt such a rescue. Well doggone it, that would just make me a dagum, lowlife SCUM.

My bad. Your heart is in the right place. I will leave this topic to the experts, any suggestions or comments I have made on this topic, I would ask for the moderator to remove them, and please send me to the wood shed where I belong, and maybe in the future, say 20 yrs from now as I do not find myself in jail for attempted murder for trying to rescue a fellow lineman with a handline block or any other piece of rigging not properly certified or up to proper code, I might venture back into this lineman forum, and throw my 40 yr's of experience around then when I post something I could pull that card.

Probably not on second thought, cause by then old lineman will have changed his handle to really old lineman, and BH will just pull the 60 yr card.

I appreciate your kind sarcasm. I told the story at the end to say, do what you have to do. Nothing I said is a "regulation", it's just an opinion of what's coming. I, like most on here, consider pole restraint a joke. If you can't climb without falling, you shouldn't be in the air. It just seems odd to me that when Batts says things, it's all right, he's an old school lineman, he has that experience. He only grouls when you poke at him. Well, there are a lot of people on here that come from that "old school". When we speak.....it means nothing. So be it.
Myself, like Batts, only groul when you poke at me. I could care less if I get banned or not. All I gave was information, you can absorb it, or you can pi$$ on it, makes no never mind to me. I, again, was responding to Bmell, not you.

[johnbellamy]

I will be strait with you here, I thought you were poking at Batts here, I thought you were taking up for your boy Reed, you were pokin, just in your own way.

I see that ya say you are retired, I was thinkin you might be thinkin on going into the safety or training busniness, it was just a hunch, if you are best of luck to ya.

The reason I bust your balls sometimes is this, I have alot of respect for you as a JL and as a man. I believe you are old school, that is where my main issue is.

I believe by what you write, it is what it is in linework today, so ya better get with the program, ya see to me, sounds like you just go along with it, like you are in management now, cause that all you here from them.

I believe JL that are proven, and respected that it is their responsibility to call bullshit, say this is my trade, give them legitiment reasons why some of these new rules and regs should be looked at before making changes, make arguments why some are detrimental to this trade, let them know what kind of journeyman these kind of changes will create.

So thats it, plus ya know by now I can be a sarcastic prick when I am tryin too make a point.

And maybe if you could let me know who 1Sully is, cause I still owe him a good beating, if you are old school, you understand that to.

[johnbellamy]

Mr. Bellamy, if I was poking at Batts, I guarantee we all would know it. I like the guy, I don't always agree with him, but that's life in general. When you say I just go with it, I will tell you this, you don't want to be sitting next to me when I raise my hand in a meeting, & I don't care if it's the CEO, I've done it. I've watched my bosses faces when they see me starting and I can see that OH Crap look. I love it. As long as I'm "respectful" the skies the limit.
I will admit that I am friends with Reed, not just for his tower rescue, but because his passion for linework, he collects insulators, and he's an artist...just like myself. And by the way, I have never been trained by him. I just studied this subject for over 15yrs....
You and I can banter back and forth, and I don't have a problem with it. I appreciate you keeping me on my toes.
As far as 1Sully, never met the man.....

Make a dent? I am sure Reed is a great guy, and to be honest, I know this is about rescue, but it looks like a hell of alot of fun, hope people don't take that wrong.

I hope ya get what I am saying, maybe some guys they might listen to can make them put on the brakes on some of this stuff, and I know it is hard when they flock shoot these problems, and I know everybody is replacable, but there are some guys they say do we really want him to leave?

It just seems like as far a this specialized tower training, the are alot of moving parts and to be honest with you I always thought depending on the size of the tower, that 4 min window would be hard to stop what you were doing depending on the work, get everything clear first and then rescue.

But there are tons of senerios other than cardiac arrest.

I hope this dose not kill the thread and this guy gets what he is looking for.

Anyway bucksqueeze is comin 2012. we will see how that goes.

[Highplains Drifter]

What style harnesses are mandated for tower work right now?

[barehander]

Make a dent? I am sure Reed is a great guy, and to be honest, I know this is about rescue, but it looks like a hell of alot of fun, hope people don't take that wrong.

I hope ya get what I am saying, maybe some guys they might listen to can make them put on the brakes on some of this stuff, and I know it is hard when they flock shoot these problems, and I know everybody is replacable, but there are some guys they say do we really want him to leave?

It just seems like as far a this specialized tower training, the are alot of moving parts and to be honest with you I always thought depending on the size of the tower, that 4 min window would be hard to stop what you were doing depending on the work, get everything clear first and then rescue.

But there are tons of senerios other than cardiac arrest.

I hope this dose not kill the thread and this guy gets what he is looking for.

Anyway bucksqueeze is comin 2012. we will see how that goes.

Sorry about the bucksqueeze, what a piece of junk........
As far as the moving parts, there's really very few. 1 rope, a few slings, you don't need all the fancy little blocks, you can use caribeeners instead, a descender which could be a figure 8, and a small set of 4s that you can make yourself. The 4's allow 1 person on the ground to lift anyone. When doing training, OSHA requires that secondary rope as a backup. That's why it looks so busy. I never argued with Batts when he said just hook the handline to the truck. Had to do that myself. I've been on tons of towers where you couldn;t get a truck to and had to carry everything in. It is what it is. With the introduction of the harness on towers, that created another hazard, suspension trauma. It can start in a few minutes. Something as simple as a guy just falling into his harness for whatever reason now is cause for concern. If he's able to hook himself to a handline, great. But if he's too injured to do that, now what? The injury may not be life threatening, but suspension trauma is. The most simple job can turn tragic very quickly.
I got involved with this in the early 90's, and here's why.

A 4man crew had a simple job, hang grounds on 1 side of a double 230kv line. Couldn't get a truck to it, so they walked in with 3 grounds and a handline. Got to the tower, 2 lineman went up and the one lineman hung the handline on the middle arm. The handline they had, when hung on the middle arm, and hung down about a foot off the ground. No problem, the lineman could ground the top and middle phase from there. The first lineman grounded the bottom and climbed up to the middle arm. The second lineman got the grounds, put the clamp on the down brace and grounded the middle phase. He attached the last ground clamp next to the other and went to install it on the top phase. Well, it didn't reach, so he brought it down, reached over and unhooked a clamp to move it. He removed the wrong one and down he went. What happened next you can criticize all day, but it happened, the young JL up there froze, and I'll leave it at that. Now you're down to 2 people with a handline hung where the victim is at that doesn't reach the ground. When pole top rescue is all you've been trained at, where you wrap the handline around the xarm.....not really a good idea to wrap a 1/2" rope around steel and drop 200lbs into it. You may as well cut it with a knife, and if you're tough enough to stand on the ground and not only pick up 200lbs and hold it to lower it, I will call you Sir everytime I see you. There happened to be 3 farm workers down the hill that saw what was going on and came up to help. A 34 yr old JL died that day, and you can sarcasticaly talk about guilt all day, but I'll say this, that crew, which had 60yrs experience between them, was traumatized that day and live with it because
they couldn't save their friend. I posted earlier that I took this crew to watch this training, and when they saw how quick and simple it was, in the same scenorio they were in, they hung their head down and said they wished they had that then. If it cost $300,000 or a million dollars, they would have paid it out of their pockets to know it and have it.
First of all, I have never been trained by Reed. I was introduced to him around 2000, and he was kind enough to answer any question I had. I watched 6 different companies do this training, and everyone of them has been trained by Reed somewhere in their career.
If one person can be saved by this system, cost becomes a moot point. Times they are a changing, and information & training can only help this industry. Men are dying over stupid things.
Us older guys on here love to talk about bygone days, some of it's still viable, some of it, you couldn't get away with now. I'm done posting in this thread, if Bmell or anyone else has any question that I can help with, they can PM me.

[johnbellamy]

I will say what happened was tragic no doubt, any of those men, families, co workers ect. I cannot understand or imagine the pain or guilt they have experienced.

I cannot argue with you on this point, so I won't.

This accident could be shredded, no point in doing that.

I will address it in this manner, I see the only solution to this or any kind of tower or pole work is to have the first order of business to be to have a rescue system in place first before attempting any kind of task . How the first man or the last man on a stucture is protected, I have no clue, but somebody will think of something.

Have trained qualified rescures in place in the event an accident or some type of medical condition would happen, and a worker would need assistance to get to the ground.

I also do not care how much this would cost as I would not be paying for the equipment or the training.

I will no longer say anything about what being a lineman is or was, bucksqeeze, special ropes and rigging, any added PPE, gloves, sleeves, rubber boots, any thing, as these are all designed to protect us and could potentialy save lives.

It is all good in the hood, whatever changes in this trade are designed to protect workers, save lives, I will no longer argue this point.

[barehander]

I will say what happened was tragic no doubt, any of those men, families, co workers ect. I cannot understand or imagine the pain or guilt they have experienced.

I cannot argue with you on this point, so I won't.

This accident could be shredded, no point in doing that.

I will address it in this manner, I see the only solution to this or any kind of tower or pole work is to have the first order of business to be to have a rescue system in place first before attempting any kind of task . How the first man or the last man on a stucture is protected, I have no clue, but somebody will think of something.

Have trained qualified rescures in place in the event an accident or some type of medical condition would happen, and a worker would need assistance to get to the ground.

I also do not care how much this would cost as I would not be paying for the equipment or the training.

I will no longer say anything about what being a lineman is or was, bucksqeeze, special ropes and rigging, any added PPE, gloves, sleeves, rubber boots, any thing, as these are all designed to protect us and could potentialy save lives.

It is all good in the hood, whatever changes in this trade are designed to protect workers, save lives, I will no longer argue this point.

Yes, John, and pardon this term...it was a comedy of errors, 20 years ago when this subject was never even considered because, by God, you should just know this. Well, it didn't work out that way. Yes, the situation can be shredded very quickly, but it happened. A very simple job turned deadly. And that's how I got involved......
I'm not saying that this system has to be used, but at least have a handline or something that at least reaches the ground, and if you have to use a sling and a shackle to hold the weight of the person, then that's how it is. At least talk about it, no matter how simple the job appears.