Distribution Hot Sticking

[lineman00]

I need some help. I've been trying for quite sometime to bring the art of Hot Sticking distribution back to our craft here in Arkansas. I finally got the backing from management which is good. The problem is that its been so long since anyone has done this here, the linemen who had the skill and knowledge of sticking have since retired. We are currently training on tying/untying, insulator changes, basics. I need all info anyone has to offer, like tools for crossarm changeouts using liftarms wrather than tagging phases out. If anyone wants to have a conversation that can help please let me know. Thanks

[Trojan]

How did you convince management to go back to hot sticking? We stopped in 1992.

[topgroove]

I'm sure you have a couple practice poles in the yard. Start with a simple single phase Lift. All you need is a tie stick, a lift stick and a couple saddles. Your guys will be amazed how easy it can get! ( The guy on the ground does all the work). Changing out deadend bells is even easier, The hardest part is the cotter key. You really don't need a whole lot of sticks, We never used half the crap in the hotstick trailer. Many of attachments simply fit on the end of a universal stick.

[topgroove]

Why do you say its moving backwards? There's tons of backlot 15KV out there. If you can avoid an outage and do it safely why not.

[lineman00]

I come up watching some of the "old timers" stick on a few occasions. It was truly a work of art. Sticking is something I have always wanted to learn but really never had the opportunity other than in the linemans rodeo. It has just simply gone away here. We glove everything, including 34.5. But you cant get a truck to everything. Over the past 8 years or so I have been blown off every time I mentioned it by everyone from supervisors, to training, to safety, simply because everyone has a boss that seems to be an electrical engineer with no line experience. I got a couple other linemen together, we put on a demo of untying a phase, tagging it out, changed the insulator, and tied it back in. Management had no idea we could do that with sticks. It gives us more options as linemen if trained properly, and I believe makes us better linemen, not just bucket linemen which is what our craft is coming to. I guess persistence pays off sometimes!

[topgroove]

I agree with you completly! There's nothing wrong with learning a different way to skin a cat! hardest part will be for management to go along with you. I know upper management loves to form commities to investigate different work practices. Sometimes it takes years for them to adopt a change.

[lineman00]

I'm sure you have a couple practice poles in the yard. Start with a simple single phase Lift. All you need is a tie stick, a lift stick and a couple saddles. Your guys will be amazed how easy it can get! ( The guy on the ground does all the work). Changing out deadend bells is even easier, The hardest part is the cotter key. You really don't need a whole lot of sticks, We never used half the crap in the hotstick trailer. Many of attachments simply fit on the end of a universal stick.

Thanks Topgroove for the info. I've got most everything, sticks, heads, lift sticks, except for the saddles. Any suggestions?

[topgroove]

we buy all our stuff from Hastings http://www.hfgp.com/index.html
you can request a catalog and they also have a phone number for customer service on the web site.

[lineman00]

Seriously? Linework is moving forward, and you're going backward?
What distribution voltages are you wanting to "stick", and WHY?

Mostly 8/13.8
Not going backward, there are enough dead work bucket linemen out there. Why take an outage unless its unsafe? Why tear someones back yard up trying to get a truck in when it can be worked in another manner? I personally want to be the best lineman I can be, which means never stop learning anything that has to do with the craft.

[lineman00]

You "Glove" 34.5? Interesting. Are you union? It sure sounds like you're not.

I've never been comfortable with Glovin 34.5. I can certainly see where you might want to Stick that shit, at least in backlot type work. I just can't see where you Actually WANT to go BACk to Sticks.

I was halfway decient at it...but give me a set of Gloves anytime!
Backlot? 34,5? Now, I can see maby stickin backlot...anything over 13.8.

Ya know....sometimes, the "company" just needs to SHUT it DOWN and unfortunately, loose the revenue, to get the Job done safer for their workers.

Yes we glove our 34.5. Yes we are union. Local 647. In most cases it is feasable to get a truck to. I look at the big picture and in some cases, not all, sticking is a better option. I like having options!

[MI-Lineman]

You "Glove" 34.5? Interesting. Are you union? It sure sounds like you're not.
I've never been comfortable with Glovin 34.5. I can certainly see where you might want to Stick that shit, at least in backlot type work. I just can't see where you Actually WANT to go BACk to Sticks.

I was halfway decient at it...but give me a set of Gloves anytime!
Backlot? 34,5? Now, I can see maby stickin backlot...anything over 13.8.

Ya know....sometimes, the "company" just needs to SHUT it DOWN and unfortunately, loose the revenue, to get the Job done safer for their workers.

What the hell's that supposed to mean? I know of 2 separate Unions here in MI alone that glove 46k? Get over the Union issue and grow up!

As for "goin backwards" that's the response I'd expect to hear from someone who's never done it or not very good at it!:rolleyes: The fact is it takes more bodies and the companies don't wanna justify more employees! Also, they don't want the added expense of havin tested equipment! We're supposed to provide a service and keep lights on not "shut it down" but once again it's all about money!

Hey Swamp, know the difference between a Lineman and a mechanic???? Mechanics "shut it down" to fix it too not Lineman!:cool:

Anything above 5k should be sticked from a pole instead of wastin time tryin to denergize and ground! Most companies still mandate wearin rubber gloves and sleaves even after all that anyways!:rolleyes:

[MI-Lineman]

There ya go!:D
I was gonna say that, but....It was so much better comin from you.:cool:

Capitalism, and Progress....Such a bitch.:( Like I said to the man. "Why go backward"?

I still don't think he's union. That's why I asked. Anything wrong with askin that man???

You're insinuating Union hands don't glove higher voltages! Once again you're wrong! This was in reference to when you opened your yap about glovin higher voltages off a pole in the past and got flack for it! You tried turnin that into a Union/non-Union thing then!

"Capitalism, and Progress....Such a bitch." No, you're a bitch if ya put Capitalism and Progress infront of pride, morals, and safety! The customer pays a bill for a professional service, not to have his fence tore down and his yard torn up!

I thought you said it's "safer" to "shut it down?" Now it's Capitalism and Progress?":rolleyes: You just don't have a clue do ya!

[lewy]

What the hell's that supposed to mean? I know of 2 separate Unions here in MI alone that glove 46k? Get over the Union issue and grow up!

As for "goin backwards" that's the response I'd expect to hear from someone who's never done it or not very good at it!:rolleyes: The fact is it takes more bodies and the companies don't wanna justify more employees! Also, they don't want the added expense of havin tested equipment! We're supposed to provide a service and keep lights on not "shut it down" but once again it's all about money!

Hey Swamp, know the difference between a Lineman and a mechanic???? Mechanics "shut it down" to fix it too not Lineman!:cool:

Anything above 5k should be sticked from a pole instead of wastin time tryin to denergize and ground! Most companies still mandate wearin rubber gloves and sleaves even after all that anyways!:rolleyes:

I think anybody rubber gloving 46 kv should re think there work procedures we only barehand it & very limited in what we can do cut in or out switches, other than that it is all sticks. class 4 gloves are only rated to 36 kv.

[MI-Lineman]

I think anybody rubber gloving 46 kv should re think there work procedures we only barehand it & very limited in what we can do cut in or out switches, other than that it is all sticks. class 4 gloves are only rated to 36 kv.

There ya go! So stickin is safer not just "goin backwards?":)

[Liledgy]

My favorite tools for tieing and uniting were a rotary blade and a hot rodder, and for hand ties a rotary prong. Can't forget the "c assist" too on the universal sticks. All angle cog wrench for the deadends. It's a great skill to learn. I don't mind gloving either, mOst of my career has been gloving 12kv.
I think it would be very difficult to get anyone to stick once they have been gloving, especially hands that never sticked before. The patience ( skinning covered 266 with no paper between insulation and conductor, not to mention useing poly skinners) needed for sticking when they can "just put the gloves on" woodbe in short supply. Add to the extra time, extra manpower equipment and tools I don't see it making a huge come back. Especially with the backyard buckets that they didn't have ( at least by us in Chicago) 25 years ago. I realize they don't go everywhere but they go to a lot of places.

[topgroove]

Yeah skinning conducter is a bitch with a stick.... I have to admitt we use to cheat and heat the PE up with a flare sometimes. It would come off like butter:o

[lewy]

All of the stick work we do now is stick & jib out of a bucket, most of our back yard stuff is loop fed & can be turned off only affecting residential customers. All of our new construction is along the road so we can get a truck to it. as far as using sticks I will use whatever work method is easier, a lot of the time I will use sticks on the 8 kv because it will eliminate the need for a lot of cover up, we only use poly insulators with a single bolt clamp, so it is just as fast to clamp in with an all angle cog as it is by hand with a ratchet.

[wtdoor67]

I think it's a pity that even simple stuff requires a kill. Basic stick work is really pretty easy. At least I think so.

If you will contact A.B. Chance, or Hastings, I'm sure they would be tickled to supply you with plenty of videos showing a lot of different methods for sticking.

You might even inquire about the arrangements for a demonstrator to drop by. Chance being located in Missouri, wouldn't be far from your location. Give em a call.

Also just their stick catalogs have some pretty good pictures of stick work. Also the Kurtz book and lots of other manuals show stick set ups.

[linehand814]

im pretty sure rubber gloving is still illegal in WA AND OR, AND I know Rocky Moutain Power does not glove, all stick work. Maybe some northwest guys or rmp guys will chime in

[lewy]

im pretty sure rubber gloving is still illegal in WA AND OR, AND I know Rocky Moutain Power does not glove, all stick work. Maybe some northwest guys or rmp guys will chime in
That is unfortunate because rubber glove work has its advantages. It is nice to have another work method to use because they all have there pros & cons.

[rob8210]

My point of view is there is nothing wrong with stickwork, in fact it puts you outside any possible flash area. I have been a rubber glover for over 20 years. A couple of years ago I had the opportunity to do a lot of stick work changing out subtransmission poles. I really enjoyed it, I learned a new skill, and I do believe that any job can be done with sticks. It might just take a little bit longer thats all. Maybe. One day we changed out 7 subtransmission poles, all sticks and jib.

[lineman00]

I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to the thread. I've recieved alot of support and info from you all and several pm's that have helped. That's one of the great aspects of being a lineman, a man can always count on his fellow craftsmen to lend a hand.

Oh, and Swamprat, I can post a copy of my A card if need be!:rolleyes:

[LostArt]

Hot Sticking is a lost art? Really? I guess it has been a few years ago since I've seen it done, but not many years. Maybe five? The Boss and I were watching this done by Progress Energy not very long ago. Interesting. I thought it was still going on around here.

So, how often do you guys use the hot stick Groove (anyone else)? Very often?

YIKES. I didn't realize this thread was 3 pages long! :eek: Let me read up on it....

[LostArt]

Uh, this is NOT what I saw. I think this would be grand scale hotsticking. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDh-84jLnhQ

And it doesn't look easy to me! More power to you guys. Wow.

[topgroove]

Hot Sticking is a lost art? Really? I guess it has been a few years ago since I've seen it done, but not many years. Maybe five? The Boss and I were watching this done by Progress Energy not very long ago. Interesting. I thought it was still going on around here.

So, how often do you guys use the hot stick Groove (anyone else)? Very often?

YIKES. I didn't realize this thread was 3 pages long! :eek: Let me read up on it....Not a shift goes by that I don't have to use a stick at least once. Since I work alone I have to maintain my clearence from energized primary. I cut loops alot and untie concuctor little stuff like that. Every six months or so a Job will come up for the crews have to stick some 34.5KV. We onle have Class 2 rubber gloves and sleeves so the most we can rubber glove is 15kv.

[LostArt]

Well, I was confused by the mentioning of not using a stick since '92. Over the years, I've learned that regulations/requirements are different in each state or in each company depending on what you are doing.

Does it just depend on the rural areas?

I see now I'm going to be asking the Boss some questions now. Right when he thought he was done. :D

[topgroove]

Alot of Utilities have gotten away from hotsticking. Many have gotten rid of their hotstick trailers. It takes alot of manhours just to maintain the sticks. They have to be kept clean and dry, and must be dielectrically tested every year. paperwork must be maintained on each and every stick. I guess It got to be such a pain in the a$$ for most they said screw it, we'll take an outage.

We have so much radial fed 34.5kv to rural substations and backlot 13.2KV distribution it can't be avoided.

[LostArt]

Oh, so it's really more maintenance and cost. I did read this morning that you have to test the sticks every two years by OSHA requirements. 'Course I don't know how updated Wiki is.

[Highplains Drifter]

In all actuality a Dialectical Tester for Hot Sticks does not cost that much and the testing can be done at home. I have never had or pulled a special trailer for distribution hot sticks. They carry fine in the stick bin on the trucks. The real big difference between a rubber glover and a hot sticker is the man that is a glover can always get out of a bind :rolleyes::D where in hot sticking one needs to know several moves ahead what the outcome is.



Come to think of it hot sticks tested every two years verses testing rubber hose, blankets and gloves every three to six months…:rolleyes:

[jerry]

In all actuality a Dialectical Tester for Hot Sticks does not cost that much and the testing can be done at home. I have never had or pulled a special trailer for distribution hot sticks. They carry fine in the stick bin on the trucks. The real big difference between a rubber glover and a hot sticker is the man that is a glover can always get out of a bind :rolleyes::D where in hot sticking one needs to know several moves ahead what the outcome is.



Come to think of it hot sticks tested every two years verses testing rubber hose, blankets and gloves every three to six months…:rolleyes:
I started out on hooks and Hot Sticking and as you said we kept our sticks on the line truck(no Buckets). Swamp says we are going backwards, I disagree. As Bucket Trucks became the norm I Rubber Gloved,we did not hot stick from a Bucket. So I do agree that Gloving from a Bucket makes sense,but on a back lot pole I think it is Very unsafe.I have Gloved primary off a walking board on back lot and most companies safety rules do not permit gloving off the pole. When I worked at Florida Power an Apprentice got burned when he made accidental hand contact with 7200V primary,it was determined that his rubber glove had a hole in it. So I guess what I am trying to say is what's wrong with having multiple skills rather than killing the line because you can not get a Bucket to the pole. I do not think that is going "BACKWARDS",more like a skilled versatile Journeyman Lineman. Old retired Lineman.

[Smitty57]

Testing sticks is not very difficult. We wet test them every two years with an A B Chance wet / dry tester. We visually inspect them before each use and wipe them down with a silicone impregnated cloth. Our sticks are kept in bags in the stick bins on our line and bucket trucks. Our highline crew has a trailer for sticks, I'll see if I can get a pix and show you how it's set up. As a company we stick everything above 5000v Phase to Phase up to 345kv.
link to chance tester http://www.hubbellpowersystems.com/literature/lineman/07-9703_drytest.pdf

[T-Man]

Alot of Utilities have gotten away from hotsticking. Many have gotten rid of their hotstick trailers. It takes alot of manhours just to maintain the sticks. They have to be kept clean and dry, and must be dielectrically tested every year. paperwork must be maintained on each and every stick. I guess It got to be such a pain in the a$$ for most they said screw it, we'll take an outage.

We have so much radial fed 34.5kv to rural substations and backlot 13.2KV distribution it can't be avoided.

Our carts (Transmission and sub-tramsmission) get tested often because we will have a class that involves hot stick training and so we train the students to go over the carts. This can happen sometimes three times a year. If we run short of classes I can see it costing but as of yet we have had the luxury of testing more than requiered. We also had at one time a Maintence group that would refinish leaky sticke for us. Now they have gone by the wayside.

[Pootnaigle]

Ummmmmmmmm back in the day sticks were made of wood and varnished over. Those had to be kept clean,and dry.When one began to leak over it felt as if it was swelling in your hands. The sticks in use today are fiberglass with a gel coat on em. They are far more forgiving.However the Odd thing is a lot of these companies require the lineman to wear rubber gloves while using them.Be it from a bucket or a board or the pole.Never made sense to me.Kinda defeats the purpose and damn sure dont help your hands when yer wearing class 3 gloves and trying to stick 13, wallowing your body all over the damn thing.I understand some safety Guru is only trying to make sure you cant get hurt But I dont bleve they gave much forethought on that rule.
I spect that rule will spell the eventual death of hotsticking just as the bucksqueeze is killing the climbing. new Back alley construction will hafta be paved with truck access throughout,Dead ends and switches at every pole so the circuirt can be isolated at every pole and backfed.A feller proficient with a long stick will be known as a hot sticking fool, and Firemen everywhere will hafta look for a new hero.

[lewy]

We only need our rubber gloves when we are in side the restricted zone which would be around 2' depending on the voltage and when we do wear our rubber gloves all we have to wear is our class 2.

[rob8210]

Read your rule book a little closer Lewy. Eusa rules do call for rubber gloves doing stick work, when there is an underbuilt circuit on the pole (second point of contact). H1 rules are a little more lenient. I do not agree with it but thems the rules. When I hot sticked I just found a way around the rules, without actually breaking them.

[lewy]

Read your rule book a little closer Lewy. Eusa rules do call for rubber gloves doing stick work, when there is an underbuilt circuit on the pole (second point of contact). H1 rules are a little more lenient. I do not agree with it but thems the rules. When I hot sticked I just found a way around the rules, without actually breaking them.
Rule 136 Live Line Tool Work
"During live line tool work, rubber gloves shall be worn whenever in the restricted zone (Rule 129 " Safe Limits of Approach")."
There is no mention of underbuilt only the restricted zone 35 000 to 50 0000 phase to phase is 4 ft. to 2 ft.

[jozmo]

If you're stickin and a problem occurs , you're 8 feet away from the flash .

[lineman00]

If you're stickin and a problem occurs , you're 8 feet away from the flash .

I agree. I think this is part of what helped me sell the idea of stick training to safety and management.

[lineman00]

We had our first training session this week on sticking distribution and it was AWESOME!! We had 10 linemen in the class, most with less than 10 years experience and all had great attitudes and were ready to learn! It allowed us to recapture part of the linemam craft that had been put aside for a while. We worked on tying/untying, changing out insulators, used lift sticks, wire tongs, and saddles to spread phases and change out crossarm, we even changed out a set of deadend bells. Thanks to all who posted in support and sent pm's with info. We're looking forward to more training and putting it to use in the field!

[topgroove]

chance makes a sweet three phase lift. They've got one that mounts on the bucket jib, and another that mounts on the third stage of a digger . It comes in real handy on or 34.5 work. You can boom up and capture all three phases at once, and all you got to do is untie the conducter. After the conducter is free you can boom it up in the clear, frame the new pole and lower the hot conducter onto the new insulators

[freshjive]

Top we used to have one, we called it the Christmas Tree... Grid outlawed it up my way...Yup just like Groove said, tie sticks and hotstick cutters are your good friends. Holding sticks are another great tool to get you out of a bind..We have a lot of 34.5kv that is hot-sticked...There used to be a school for it, but no more. Its all on the job training now..A lot of other areas in my company don't do it at all, and others do a little. Its definatly a dying art. We now have the new poly insulators that just crank down with a socket on the end of a shotgun..Easy work and a lot safer than having hotstick ties with the ends flailing around. I've always liked hotsticking, I think its fun. It takes all of your concentration to do it, but it makes for a good day when you and another guy are working in sync and its just flowing...Good times, good times :p

[climbsomemore]

When I started at FPL gloving was an "option" and all gloving tools had to be hot stick adaptable.

Grips and hoists had to have hot eyes etc. Blankets can be placed with sticks, clothespins can be place with sticks, hoists and blocks can be used with hot sticks... cause we could not glove in the rain. So... if you started a glove job that had to get finished you could re tailbord it ... break out the sticks and finish up.

We had a lot of 4 Kv that got hotsticked even though we could glove that voltage from the pole. Moving 4/0 copper or 336 Al rigged up in lift sticks and blocks was much easier than trying to man handle it from one's hooks.

We did have Becky Boards so we could glove from the pole... but 2 guys and a grunt could change out a dead end or insulator with a couple of lifts sticks and saddles faster than you could hang a board and install all the rubber goods to glove by the rules.

It's good to have the option and Im glad to see some folks still wanting to know stuff...

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