Class 4 Rubber Gloves and Sleeves

[freshjive]

This probably goes hand in hand with the hotsticking question asked earlier.. We have 34kv all over our area, and we hotstick everything on it.....Its a great skill to learn and know but it can be dangerous. I'm just wondering if anyone has a pic of the gloves and sleeves used for 34 work (class 4). I have a feeling that in the future, we are gonna be given a raise and expected to rubber glove it. My buddy who used to contract and glove 34kv said the gloves are like wearing linehose on your fingers, and that by the end of the day, your hands are killing you cuz the gloves are sooo thick..So does anyone have any pics of them and/or sleeves for 34kv...I've never seen a pair and I'd like to see them and see the thickness...thanx

[lewy]

We have to wear our class 4s when we are hands on working our 27.6/16 other than that, all we have to wear is our class 2s. They are much thicker & longer, as far as sleeves I do not know because we don't wear them. I don,t have any pictures, but I don't think a picture would show how much harder they are to work in, because of that depending on the job I will quite often stick it over gloving.

[lineman00]

We glove our 19.9/34.5. We wear class 3 Salsbury Gloves on single phase and add our sleeves on multi-phase. As far as I am concerned, we lost the best gloves and sleeves made when salsbury bought out White. Salsbury is alot stiffer and dont fit your hand very well at all. Their sleeves suck too. My class 2 salsbury are like wearing class 3 whites. The only difference is the 2 is yellow and the 3 is red. I've never put on a class 4. You may be able to get a pic off of their website.

[lewy]

We glove our 19.9/34.5. We wear class 3 Salsbury Gloves on single phase and add our sleeves on multi-phase. As far as I am concerned, we lost the best gloves and sleeves made when salsbury bought out White. Salsbury is alot stiffer and dont fit your hand very well at all. Their sleeves suck too. My class 2 salsbury are like wearing class 3 whites. The only difference is the 2 is yellow and the 3 is red. I've never put on a class 4. You may be able to get a pic off of their website.

I am surprised that you use class 3 & not class 4 for this voltage as that is the highest voltage that should be rubber gloved as far as I know, so it makes me wonder what class 4 gloves are for.

[squarewasher]

I've worked for PSNH gloving 34.5 in New Hampshire and you will come home at the end of the day spent. As for pictures i got one better, just take two pairs of class 2 gloves and two pairs of class 2 sleeves and put them on and try working. HOT STICK IT !!!!!

[freshjive]

that bad huh? I know PSNH gloves it...Man, my buddy said the same thing..He also said he used to get whacked from the induction a lot more than 13.2 or 13.8kv..I think he'd rather hotstick it too, but I think we are gonna end up gloving it pretty soon because, for those of you who hotstick on a regular basis, know that every jjob takes twice as long when you're using hotstick tools...I thought MA state law said no gloving anything over 23kv, but that's not so, because the contractors in our area definatly glove 34.5kv...

[LAMartin.CVEC]

here at CVEC we have mix of 12.4 (7.2 to earth/ground/ neutral) and 24.9 (14.4 earth/ground/neutral). We speak here at CVEC in phase to ground terms.

"Is this tap 7/2 or 14/4???"

I think it is mainly due to the nature of most transformers being single phase and what not, however we glove with class 3 and wear sleeves, regardless be it a single phase lateral or three phase trunk line. The nature of the glove is for maximum voltage worked: Phase to Phase.

When I was a contractor we would glove 35kv (34.5/19.9) (and sorry Mr. Freshjive it is not induction your friend was feeling it was capacitance: your hand is one plate, you have a dielectric glove, then a leather protector as the next plate: every time you touch the wire you "discharge" like a Cap would. this effect is why it is recommended to always have the cleanest driest glove protectors you can when gloving 35kv) in class 4. I would prefer the stick method.

Many times here at CVEC with some of our area getting over grown by housing we no longer have bucket access: paved driveways, manicured lawns, it goes on and on. A back lot machine is awesome if your changing the wood: I'd rather use it just as a digger/linetruck: I HATE working out of those pieces of crap! I'd much rather stick it and do all other transfers (pot,Sec's, etc) from my hooks then go home with my back killing me and my guts feeling like they've turned in side out from those bucket rocking pieces of crap.

But, we clove here at CVEC, so I just "suck it up and do my damn job", thankfully we don't have that crap to often.

Sorry for the ranting on again off again topic thing.

Work Safely,

L.A. Martin
Journeyman Div III
CVEC

[rob8210]

I started using class 4 rubber gloves when I got into the trade , over 20 years ago. I'm so dang used to them that they don't bother me a bit. I'll get a picture on for you to see, in a couple of days. We don't wear sleeves here in Ontario, but I have had the pleasure (haha) the summer I worked in the US. I ended up in an argument over wearing them even when the line was isolated, grounded and laying on the ground. The foreman didn't understand the concept of point of work grounds even though he said he took the course 3 times!!! The kicker was we had 4 sets of grounds in 6 spans of line and the rbd was ahead of us installing poles with no line grounds. According to that foreman it was ok for the rbd to work with no grounds.

[lewy]

I started using class 4 rubber gloves when I got into the trade , over 20 years ago. I'm so dang used to them that they don't bother me a bit. I'll get a picture on for you to see, in a couple of days. We don't wear sleeves here in Ontario, but I have had the pleasure (haha) the summer I worked in the US. I ended up in an argument over wearing them even when the line was isolated, grounded and laying on the ground. The foreman didn't understand the concept of point of work grounds even though he said he took the course 3 times!!! The kicker was we had 4 sets of grounds in 6 spans of line and the rbd was ahead of us installing poles with no line grounds. According to that foreman it was ok for the rbd to work with no grounds.

Yea I never understood wearing rubber gloves on a properly grounded line.

[Daddyof2]

I am surprised that you use class 3 & not class 4 for this voltage as that is the highest voltage that should be rubber gloved as far as I know, so it makes me wonder what class 4 gloves are for.

It is in our contract out of Local 84 in GA to glove 46kv.

[lewy]

It is in our contract out of Local 84 in GA to glove 46kv.

I would think you are pushing the absolute limit of class 4 gloves as the max working voltage is 36 kv & the true peak voltage you would be working on would be right around 36 kv phase to ground. For us we either have to stick it or bare hand.

[Daddyof2]

We were all against it when it came about. Phasing sticks have it at 26kv and some change phase to ground. After working it for a little while it is actually better than gloving lower voltages because of the clearances, but that is just my opinion.

[rob8210]

Rubber gloving 46kv? Really? It sure isn't allowed here. Working it live , with hot sticks or barehanding. Otherwise kill it. I would say you are really pushing the limits of what the gloves are designed for, and here is food for thought. We are talking about 3 phase delta , right? If that is the case on a delta system the phase to phase voltages do not remain constant. They are constantly changing to compensate for load. Since there is no neutral to balance the load you could see the A to B voltage go high and the B to C voltages go low etc. There are too many variables involved to know the true voltage you are working with, and it could change almost instantly. So even taking voltage readings are nothing more than an educated guess. I know a fella that got burned working 16/ 27.6 kv wearing class 2 gloves. His thinking was the gloves were tested for 20kv and he was only working one phase at a time. The gloves flashed over. IMHO its not worth the risk of getting burned and whoever allowed that in your contract needs to get re-educated. ( Just being polite)

[Daddyof2]

Rubber gloving 46kv? Really? It sure isn't allowed here. Working it live , with hot sticks or barehanding. Otherwise kill it. I would say you are really pushing the limits of what the gloves are designed for, and here is food for thought. We are talking about 3 phase delta , right? If that is the case on a delta system the phase to phase voltages do not remain constant. They are constantly changing to compensate for load. Since there is no neutral to balance the load you could see the A to B voltage go high and the B to C voltages go low etc. There are too many variables involved to know the true voltage you are working with, and it could change almost instantly. So even taking voltage readings are nothing more than an educated guess. I know a fella that got burned working 16/ 27.6 kv wearing class 2 gloves. His thinking was the gloves were tested for 20kv and he was only working one phase at a time. The gloves flashed over. IMHO its not worth the risk of getting burned and whoever allowed that in your contract needs to get re-educated. ( Just being polite)

Unfortuantly gloving 46kv is a way of life down here especially during the summer months when you cant get clearances on 115 and 230kv lines. There are more 46kv radial lines here than you can imagine.

[lewy]

Unfortuantly gloving 46kv is a way of life down here especially during the summer months when you cant get clearances on 115 and 230kv lines. There are more 46kv radial lines here than you can imagine.
When you are doing this do you take a current leakage test on your boom first as you are in my opinion working beyond the max rating of your gloves and your second barrier to ground is your boom. We have to take a leakage test on anything above 15 kv phase to phase.

[lewy]

We were all against it when it came about. Phasing sticks have it at 26kv and some change phase to ground. After working it for a little while it is actually better than gloving lower voltages because of the clearances, but that is just my opinion.

That 26 kv phase to ground is 26kv RMS the peak to peak would be around 36 kv.

[Daddyof2]

When you are doing this do you take a current leakage test on your boom first as you are in my opinion working beyond the max rating of your gloves and your second barrier to ground is your boom. We have to take a leakage test on anything above 15 kv phase to phase.

No we do not take a current leakage test when gloving. Only our barehand buckets are equipped with a meter. Most distribution here is 25kv[14.4/24.9] and is gloved with class 3 gloves on the contractor side and with class 2's on the utility side.

[lewy]

No we do not take a current leakage test when gloving. Only our barehand buckets are equipped with a meter. Most distribution here is 25kv[14.4/24.9] and is gloved with class 3 gloves on the contractor side and with class 2's on the utility side.

It is interesting how the contractor in my opinion is wearing the right class of gloves for that voltage compared to the utility. Is there not some sort of governing body that has regulations on this as I would think you would both have to wear the same class of glove for a particular voltage. This all gets back to a thread MI started about whether phase to ground or phase to phase voltage determines what class of gloves you use. For us it is phase to phase, but for you it appears to be phase to ground, because you are clearly going above the phase to phase rating by wearing class 2 working on 25kv[14.4/24.9] and class 4 on 46kv. What does OSHA have to say about this or is out of there control?

[Daddyof2]

It is interesting how the contractor in my opinion is wearing the right class of gloves for that voltage compared to the utility. Is there not some sort of governing body that has regulations on this as I would think you would both have to wear the same class of glove for a particular voltage. This all gets back to a thread MI started about whether phase to ground or phase to phase voltage determines what class of gloves you use. For us it is phase to phase, but for you it appears to be phase to ground, because you are clearly going above the phase to phase rating by wearing class 2 working on 25kv[14.4/24.9] and class 4 on 46kv. What does OSHA have to say about this or is out of there control?

I dont have an answer for OSHA. They actually stopped and done an audit on my crew a few months ago while gloving 46kv. They asked voltage and even wanted to know expiration dates on gloves but never batted an eye at the class 4 gloves or cover. As far as the distribution goes, we as a contractor glove 25kv and 12kv with class 3 while the utility here gloves both with class 2.

[lewy]

I dont have an answer for OSHA. They actually stopped and done an audit on my crew a few months ago while gloving 46kv. They asked voltage and even wanted to know expiration dates on gloves but never batted an eye at the class 4 gloves or cover. As far as the distribution goes, we as a contractor glove 25kv and 12kv with class 3 while the utility here gloves both with class 2.

How much would a field inspector know about what you are doing? I know up here the Ministry of labor doesn't really know that much about what we do, but if something went wrong they would know what we can & can not do

[Daddyof2]

How much would a field inspector know about what you are doing? I know up here the Ministry of labor doesn't really know that much about what we do, but if something went wrong they would know what we can & can not do

Couldnt tell you that. Just telling what I have seen with OSHA. As you said, unless something happens they dont worry about the gate till the horses have done got out. All I know is the work practices down here. Every contractor I know, union or not, glove 46kv with class 4 gloves and cover. Its really the only work during the summer here.

[lewy]

Couldnt tell you that. Just telling what I have seen with OSHA. As you said, unless something happens they dont worry about the gate till the horses have done got out. All I know is the work practices down here. Every contractor I know, union or not, glove 46kv with class 4 gloves and cover. Its really the only work during the summer here.
I am curious what kind of work you are doing on your 46 kv? We have a lot of 44kv that we also have to to work live. Almost all of our 44kv feeds distribution stations so most of the work we would be doing is pole changes or insulator upgrades which we would do with stick & jib & class 5 hard cover or cut in or out switches which we would do barehand.

[Daddyof2]

I am curious what kind of work you are doing on your 46 kv? We have a lot of 44kv that we also have to to work live. Almost all of our 44kv feeds distribution stations so most of the work we would be doing is pole changes or insulator upgrades which we would do with stick & jib & class 5 hard cover or cut in or out switches which we would do barehand.

Pretty much the same work here. Of course it can all be done with sticks just as any work can be if you are trained and equipped to do so. It comes down to the accepted work practices in your area. When I first got in the trade gloving 25kv was the big issue around here. Crews actually had to be "25" crews and received a small premium to do so.

[lewy]

Unfortuantly gloving 46kv is a way of life down here especially during the summer months when you cant get clearances on 115 and 230kv lines. There are more 46kv radial lines here than you can imagine.

I know this is an old post, but after reading it about gloving 46k, I was wondering if you guys ever asked any of the rubber glove manufactures what they thought of you gloving 46 kv? I bet they would say it is not recommended, then someone would have some explaining to do if something went wrong.
On a side note this forum spent a lot more time talking line work in the past.

[Old Line Dog]

I know this is an old post, but after reading it about gloving 46k, I was wondering if you guys ever asked any of the rubber glove manufactures what they thought of you gloving 46 kv? I bet they would say it is not recommended, then someone would have some explaining to do if something went wrong.
On a side note this forum spent a lot more time talking line work in the past.

I drew the line at Glovin only up to 34.5. That was all I'd do...or I'd drag.

Our gloves were tested, my bucket was dielectric tested, I knew what I was doin.....but 34.5 is high enough.

THIS Forum is Still Talkin "Linework" Lewy.

[Old Line Dog]

BTW....can anybody actually Bend their fingers in Class 4 Rubbers????:eek:

[US & CA Tramp]

Class 4 rubber gloves are only rated for 35,000 volts.

[lewy]

Class 4 rubber gloves are only rated for 35,000 volts.

I know you know this but that means the most you can work at is 19000 volts phase to ground not 26000 phase to ground on a 44 kv system.

[US & CA Tramp]

I know you know this but that means the most you can work at is 19000 volts phase to ground not 26000 phase to ground on a 44 kv system.

I agree. All glove ratings are phase to phase voltage.

[linemanfrog]

The way I understand it is you use the class of glove that covers your exposure level. If a multiphase line can be approached and properly covered without exposing yourself to phase-phase hazards so that you are only exposed to the phase you are working on then you can use gloves that are rated for the phase to ground voltage. This would also apply to lines that have enough clearance between phases so you are outside of M.A.D. of other phases when you are working on one phase. If neither of these two rules apply due to construction then gloves must be rated for phase-phase voltage.

[linemanfrog]

Below is the chart from OSHA along with their definitions of when to use the phase-phase or phase-ground voltages

Table I-5. - Rubber Insulating Equipment Voltage Requirements
__________________________________________________ __________________
| | |
Class of | Maximum use | Retest voltage(2) | Retest voltage(2)
equipment | voltage(1) | a - c - rms | d - c - avg
| a - c - rms | |
_____________|_____________|___________________|__ ________________
| | |
0............| 1,000 | 5,000 | 20,000
1............| 7,500 | 10,000 | 40,000
2............| 17,000 | 20,000 | 50,000
3............| 26,500 | 30,000 | 60,000
4............| 36,000 | 40,000 | 70,000
_____________|_____________|___________________|__ ________________
Footnote(1) The maximum use voltage is the a-c voltage (rms)
classification of the protective equipment that designates the
maximum nominal design voltage of the energized system that may be
safely worked. The nominal design voltage is equal to the
phase-to-phase voltage on multiphase circuits. However, the
phase-to-ground potential is considered to be the nominal design
voltage:




[1] If there is no multiphase exposure in a system area and if the voltage exposure is limited to the phase-to-ground potential, or


[2] If the electrical equipment and devices are insulated or isolated or both so that the multiphase exposure on a grounded wye circuit is removed.


https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9787

[lewy]

So on your 35/19 system you could wear class 3s if working on a single phase line, but would need class 4s when working on a multi phase line? We have to wear our class 4s anytime we work our 27/16 whether we are working a single phase line or multi phase line. I would guess you would not be carrying a different set of gloves for every voltage you would have for both single phase work and multi phase work. As far as working 44 kv it would always be a 3 phase line as there are no single phase 44 kv transformers and no manufacturer is going to say their gloves are rated for working that voltage.

[linemanfrog]

If I personally was working 35kv.........class 4 gloves. Ive never worked higher than 25kv distribution. Our distribution where I work is 12KV and we wear class 2's. We have worked 25KV when out of town wearing class 2's and we follow what osha says as shown in my post above. If its single phase you are good to go. If it is multiphase we cover all potentials that we are within Minimum approach distance of and keep it covered while we work on which ever phase we are working on un-insulated. This is permissible according to both our company's rules as well as OSHA rules as long as we can keep out of MAD of any uninsulated/uncovered line that is at a different potential from the one we are working on.

[wudwlkr]

See also Exception No 2 to Table 441-4 in the 2012 NESC.

"If electric equipment and devices are insulated, isolated, or both, such that the multiphase exposure on a grounded wye circuit is removed and if supplemental insulation (e.g., insulated aerial device or structuremounted insulating work platform) is used to insulate the employee from ground, then the nominal design voltage may be considered as the phase-to-ground voltage on that circuit."

[US & CA Tramp]

See also Exception No 2 to Table 441-4 in the 2012 NESC.

"If electric equipment and devices are insulated, isolated, or both, such that the multiphase exposure on a grounded wye circuit is removed and if supplemental insulation (e.g., insulated aerial device or structuremounted insulating work platform) is used to insulate the employee from ground, then the nominal design voltage may be considered as the phase-to-ground voltage on that circuit."

Then according to these statements it is legal for you to have all three phases cover with rubber, stand in a bucket, lay your belly on the outside rubbered up phase and wok on the center phase? Of coarse you would be wearing your rubber gloves??

I will see if I can find the outcome of the court case where a contract lineman in south Florida died doing something similar. I am sure his widow is enjoying the millions she was awarded!!

You must also remember the big business that lobbied for these exclusions. My money is on the lottery!!

[rob8210]

I forgot about this thread. I never could get a picture of class 4 gloves to load on here. I know one thing, I have worked on 27.6kv for 20 odd years now and I would not take the chances of wearing class 2 gloves to work on it. Not saying I have never done it , just saying it isn't worth the risk. I know of one guy that lost both arms at the elbow. I have heard of class 2 gloves flashing over on 27.6kv (16kv to ground). These gloves are designed and rated for phase to phase voltage. Maximum phase to phase voltage for class 4 gloves is 36kv. You fellas working 46kv are really pushing your luck, why would you do that? Hot sticking is nice work, I tend to prefer it when working higher voltages, when I have the equipment. This is from a guy that has rubber gloved most all of his career. Yeah those class 4's are stiff to bend, but you get used to them. Now I wear them only when I have to , I use class 2 for everything but hands on 27.6kv. Compare your class 2 gloves and class 4 gloves for a minute. Check out the leakage distance from the end of the leather cover to the end of the rubber glove. Not all that much is it? Now consider a wye voltage such as 27.6 or 34.5, it pretty much operates at a steady voltage, but 46kv is a delta voltage, it is relatively constant phase to phase but each phase can vary. One phase could be low and the other 2 higher, pushing the limits of rubber gloves. I think you will find that the manufacturers would not recommend that practice at all. That being the case where would your legal arse be if you are rubber gloving 46kv , a glove flashes over and burns you. The companies lawyer would eat you up. The union that allows this practice is also going to be in a bad legal position. What union is it anyway?

[linemanfrog]

Then according to these statements it is legal for you to have all three phases cover with rubber, stand in a bucket, lay your belly on the outside rubbered up phase and wok on the center phase? Of coarse you would be wearing your rubber gloves??

I will see if I can find the outcome of the court case where a contract lineman in south Florida died doing something similar. I am sure his widow is enjoying the millions she was awarded!!

You must also remember the big business that lobbied for these exclusions. My money is on the lottery!!

I would say no to your question. The reason being is that rubber cover is only meant as insulation for brush contact and not for laying against regardless of the voltage being worked. Also as an industry standard you generally work with at least two forms of protection such as a rated aerial lift and gloves or an insulated board and gloves. So unless you have found a manufacturer that makes a dielectric belly cover you would not be relying on two forms of protection from electrical shock.

[US & CA Tramp]

I would say no to your question. The reason being is that rubber cover is only meant as insulation for brush contact and not for laying against regardless of the voltage being worked. Also as an industry standard you generally work with at least two forms of protection such as a rated aerial lift and gloves or an insulated board and gloves. So unless you have found a manufacturer that makes a dielectric belly cover you would not be relying on two forms of protection from electrical shock.

According to your explanation my post would give you three forms of protection. Glooves, Rubber gut, and insulated arial device.

The point is just because something is written down doesn't make it right or safe! Big business wrote the rules lineman use their heads.

[linemanfrog]

According to your explanation my post would give you three forms of protection. Glooves, Rubber gut, and insulated arial device.

The point is just because something is written down doesn't make it right or safe! Big business wrote the rules lineman use their heads.

In that explanation read where linehose and blankets are for incidental brush contact only and not for laying on.....but perhaps I've been mis-instructed?

[lewy]

I agree that coverup is for brush contact only, so I would think that anytime you are working where there is more than 1 phase it would be considered multi phase exposure. For us we don't have the option, we use the gloves rated for the phase to phase voltage even when working on a single phase line. The same logic applies for working primary off the pole. It is below 5kv that doesn't mean we can work a single phase line of 4.8 kv.

[rob8210]

How often do your rubber gloves fail retesting? You are not supposed to wear rings , watches,etc inside your gloves because it causes an unnecessary stress point in the glove. When you wear under rated rubber your cause an electrical stress on the gloves, and they tend to fail due to ozone cutting. They are designed to be worn on rated voltage. You should check with the manufacturer and clarify what they are rated for and explain to them what the company wants you to do. Even then , I cannot understand a union allowing the practice of wearing rubber gloves on a higher than designed and rated voltage. Even though most of us know there are ways to cheat, safe or not, I cannot see these practices being allowed. Especially rubber gloving 46kv. If there was an accident and a fella got burned, I would think any half smart high priced lawyer would be all over it! Besides is it worth taking the chance of getting burned?

[US & CA Tramp]

I agree that coverup is for brush contact only, so I would think that anytime you are working where there is more than 1 phase it would be considered multi phase exposure. For us we don't have the option, we use the gloves rated for the phase to phase voltage even when working on a single phase line. The same logic applies for working primary off the pole. It is below 5kv that doesn't mean we can work a single phase line of 4.8 kv.

This is what I was trying to get across, may be a little too sarcastically. All rubber is rated for multi or phase to phase voltage, and with the fault current these days why would a lineman want to take a chance. Like I said the exceptions were written in by big business not for the lineman safety.