Feeder reclosing (hot line tag) and dealing with DA feeders

[psu927]

Recently the company I work for had a few phase to phase issues and they are working out some new work practices, possibly requiring us to always get the feeder reclosing off and the high speed trip on whenever we are working hands on, on mainline feeder where there is no fuse protection. Some of this the operator can do from the control room, and some has to be done manually at the recloser itself or the substation, depening on where we are working on the circuit. Used to only have to do that when we were pulling wire, or at the crew leaders discretion. I was wondering what your guys utilitys rules are regarding the issue. (when you have to use it etc...)? There isn't even hardly a spark when the high speeds are on.

[lewy]

Recently the company I work for had a few phase to phase issues and they are working out some new work practices, possibly requiring us to always get the feeder reclosing off and the high speed trip on whenever we are working hands on, on mainline feeder where there is no fuse protection. Some of this the operator can do from the control room, and some has to be done manually at the recloser itself or the substation, depening on where we are working on the circuit. Used to only have to do that when we were pulling wire, or at the crew leaders discretion. I was wondering what your guys utilitys rules are regarding the issue. (when you have to use it etc...)? There isn't even hardly a spark when the high speeds are on.
I am not real clear on some of the stuff you are asking, but for us anytime we are working live or for that matter we feel we need a hold off we get it no questions asked.

[Pootnaigle]

Ummmmmmm We usta hafta get any Feeder we were working on placed on oneshot, even if we were working behind fuses. the theory was that the breaker would operate before the fuse did.

[kooman]

anytime we are doing any work on the feeder the reclosure is off and a hold tag is placed. also when we are working behind any manual oil breaker it is by passed and the circuit put on one shot.

[rob8210]

When you are doing hands on work it only makes sense to get a holdoff ( put the recloser on one shot). But remember a holdoff is to protect equipment only. The benefit for us is if there is a problem then the feeder just goes out. As for working behind fuses , I don't think its ok because the way a system is designed, when there is a fault, the breaker operates faster than a fuse blows. The purpose of fuses is to isolate a problem and allow the breaker to automatically reclose restoring the rest of the circuit. Most of the time reclosers are set up to operate 3 times then lock out. A holdoff simply means a lineman only gets electricuted once.

[Lineman North Florida]

When you are doing hands on work it only makes sense to get a holdoff ( put the recloser on one shot). But remember a holdoff is to protect equipment only. The benefit for us is if there is a problem then the feeder just goes out. As for working behind fuses , I don't think its ok because the way a system is designed, when there is a fault, the breaker operates faster than a fuse blows. The purpose of fuses is to isolate a problem and allow the breaker to automatically reclose restoring the rest of the circuit. Most of the time reclosers are set up to operate 3 times then lock out. A holdoff simply means a lineman only gets electricuted once.That's not always the case, a lot of places have gone to faster blowing fuses such as K type and adjusted their breaker settings at the station so that if there is a fault on a fused lateral the fuse blows before the breaker at the station operates so that none of the other customers on the feeder ever see it, people complained about all their digital clocks and appliances blinking everyday from breaker operations and a lot of company's went this route for a solution.

[psu927]

I'm sure the terminology is a little different between utiilites. We do use the K style fuse links. Used to be pretty much up to the crew leader as to whether to get the hot line tag (holdoff?) on or not but now they are requiring it, which seems to be more like the norm. Are you guys allowed to pick up any load with it on? (holdoff/hotline tag) I think it is a good thing, because it does protect equipment, as well as workers from possibly burns. The trip is super fast from what I hear.

[BillyMac]

We don't do nothing live unless the Feeder is set to one shot and tag placed.
I think it is a good thing, because it does protect equipment, as well as workers

Funny story about this we were once completing a theory test to be re-authorised Live LIne and we all got the Q's wrong. It read why is the Feeder set to one shot? Now with us getting told "SAFTEY FIRST" every second of the day we all answered to protect the worker! BOM BO WRONG It's fundamently to proetct equipment. Needless to say we asked this of the manager and he was in the same thought path as us. Guess the dill's writing the test aren't savy with how we are drummed.

[JohnnyBGood]

IMO its a good idea to ask for a non test when ever you are working on the line, however even under the quickest operation of a breaker or Line recloser it still takes 3-5 cycles to operate and open, at a fault duty that could be in the thousands. At where I work we hardly ever have the OCB set faster than the fuses. Too many people complaining about resetting the clocks. So now the farther you are out on a circuit the faster the device operates, generally.

[lineman]

Why not put it on one shot? Even if it has a fast fuse on it? In fact, You don't know what kind of fuse is really in the barrel unless you go up and look. I think it's better to assume that the fuse won't blow and put it on one shot every time.

[duckhunter]

anytime we are doing any work on the feeder the reclosure is off and a hold tag is placed. also when we are working behind any manual oil breaker it is by passed and the circuit put on one shot.

We follow the same practice.

[BigClive]

Is nuisance tripping an issue when high speed tripping is used? Like when a transformer gets closed in and causes a current spike?

[rob8210]

The general rule around here is get a holdoff when working anywhere near anything live. Some places don't require a holdoff for switching or refusing though, but will issue one if you ask for it. And why not its quite cheap!!!

[JohnnyBGood]

Is nuisance tripping an issue when high speed tripping is used? Like when a transformer gets closed in and causes a current spike?

Never seen a problem on the smaller overhead cans. Large Pad Mount transformers, 1000kva and +, yes rarely.

[T-Man]

Hot line clearance where I come from is putting a recloser on one shot and working the line alive in rubber gloves etc. . This is more for the protection of the equipment than the people working on the line. If there is a problem the line is supposed to trip out and stay out till the control center finds out what happened and if anyone was in trouble due to the trip. If during a hot line clearance the crew is ready to energize a new tub on the line with the clearance they would get off the clearance and restore the line to normal. so if the start up current would affect the line, it may go thru a high speed trip but not go thru the other two slower trips and stay in.
If we are talking oil filled reclosers they will reset themselves in a short time once the oil pumped during the open drains. This is all done with valves and sized holes to set the timing. If it is an electronic recloser we have a button that over rides cold load pick up and if you hold that in, the recloser will trip in a fault but not on cold load spikes. You would restore it to normal as soon as the tub is in service.

We also have what we call a Hot line de-energized clearance where the line gets opened at the recloser by pulling the kyle switch open which de-energizes line but there is no visual open. The crew still works the line as if it were hot, with proper PPE

[lewy]

Hot line clearance where I come from is putting a recloser on one shot and working the line alive in rubber gloves etc. . This is more for the protection of the equipment than the people working on the line. If there is a problem the line is supposed to trip out and stay out till the control center finds out what happened and if anyone was in trouble due to the trip. If during a hot line clearance the crew is ready to energize a new tub on the line with the clearance they would get off the clearance and restore the line to normal. so if the start up current would affect the line, it may go thru a high speed trip but not go thru the other two slower trips and stay in.
If we are talking oil filled reclosers they will reset themselves in a short time once the oil pumped during the open drains. This is all done with valves and sized holes to set the timing. If it is an electronic recloser we have a button that over rides cold load pick up and if you hold that in, the recloser will trip in a fault but not on cold load spikes. You would restore it to normal as soon as the tub is in service.

We also have what we call a Hot line de-energized clearance where the line gets opened at the recloser by pulling the kyle switch open which de-energizes line but there is no visual open. The crew still works the line as if it were hot, with proper PPE

We would lift the lead at the Kyle, then test & ground. We are no longer aloud to work an isolated line, we have to ground it in order for the line to become de-energized.

[T-Man]

We would lift the lead at the Kyle, then test & ground. We are no longer aloud to work an isolated line, we have to ground it in order for the line to become de-energized.

We still use the PPE when when it's de-energized with a Hot Line de-energized card.
Now a Hold Off is different, There the line is bridged if it can be, then opened on both sides of the work at switches, Line fuses, Breakers or even hot line taps. Then cards are set at the opens and grounds applied on the work side of the opens. Now if the crew wants working grounds or equal potential grounds at the work site they install them on their own once they get the clearance in the leadmans name for each crew working in that clearance.
Hotline clearance is different from a Hold Off Clearance in this reguard.

[lewy]

We still use the PPE when when it's de-energized with a Hot Line de-energized card.
Now a Hold Off is different, There the line is bridged if it can be, then opened on both sides of the work at switches, Line fuses, Breakers or even hot line taps. Then cards are set at the opens and grounds applied on the work side of the opens. Now if the crew wants working grounds or equal potential grounds at the work site they install them on their own once they get the clearance in the leadmans name for each crew working in that clearance.
Hotline clearance is different from a Hold Off Clearance in this reguard.
So if I am understanding you correct you could have a hot line clearance & work the line isolated?

[reppy007]

When you are doing hands on work it only makes sense to get a holdoff ( put the recloser on one shot). But remember a holdoff is to protect equipment only. The benefit for us is if there is a problem then the feeder just goes out. As for working behind fuses , I don't think its ok because the way a system is designed, when there is a fault, the breaker operates faster than a fuse blows. The purpose of fuses is to isolate a problem and allow the breaker to automatically reclose restoring the rest of the circuit. Most of the time reclosers are set up to operate 3 times then lock out. A holdoff simply means a lineman only gets electricuted once.

The way we were brought up was when you got a work-tag or 1 shot it was for protecting the equipment,and the circuit wouldnt come hot on the already damaged equipment,but I learned real fast that most guys would get one more for their protection,and I can say that lineman can be right when saying that you dont actually know what size of fuse is in a barrel unless your were the one who just refused it,its even possible that it may not even be fused....could be a peice of #6 or other sizes of copper..........I mentioned it to Poot before that we had a foreman once tell a crew to get a work tag on a section that was behind fuses..........that was a first for us on that crew and we thought the foreman lost it........just saying that some fuses wont clear....but for us it was usually up to the headlineman weather to get a work tag or not.

[bluestreak]

About five years ago (maybe more brain fade you know) OSHA came out with some new regs on flash protection for workers exposed to Ark Flash. At that time they decided that reclosing would be used to protect people not just equipment. Any line that had the potential to cause an arc above a certain calorie rating had to be worked with sticks or needed to put on quick curve one shot reclosing. Because most of the work on the system is done hot, rubber gloving up to 23k. The Co. really scrambled to get switching written for all the loop schemes, couldn't do a lot of stuff, simple pole shifts,basic maintenance. Used to wait hours for switching, now it's pretty much you get your work orders in the morning along with all the switching orders for the day's work too.

[birdog37]

Every co. is different it seems.The one that makes most sense is putting the breaker on one shot and never rely on a fuse to open merely because of the fuse thats there.Did someone slug it.Maybe they used a T fuse instead of a K fuse.Ya know the crew that came from out of town to work that storm that blew threw and all they had was T fuses.Just something to bare in mind.Ya just never know.Trust me I seen this as an apprentice and thankfully the breaker finally opened before the wire burned down.