when installing grounds/what do u use

[reppy007]

Primary or secondary....mainly secondary....when you open the barrel/door and the highside is lifted,and the process of installing grounds begins,what dou you use to install them with?I know guys will use leathers or install them barehanded,but as a young apprentice I or we were brought up to wear rubbers while doing this.....dont give me the it will only be a second without rubbers answer.

[Lineman North Florida]

Grounds should always be installed and removed with a shotgun stick.

[TRAMPLINEMAN]

Is this a serious question?

[birdog37]

Shotgun always.

[bashlin]

clean neutral with wire brush, install ground on neutral with shotgun, install on phase with shotgun..

[HookinAintEasy]

neutral we can install by hand (rubber gloves) from neutral to phase always with a shotgun!!

[reppy007]

Is this a serious question?

Yes it is serious,I was trying to see if anyone admitted to using leathers or nothing at all while installing secondary grounds,it takes a minute or two,so people use that excuse to take a short cut and not to wear their rubbers......but nobody is admitting yet.

[Hebrew]

I install grounds on neutral with leathers.Neutral is grounded every other pole with #3 copper.Does anyone see a problem?

[kooman]

a neutral is a current carrying conductor, allways ruber gloves for the voltage of the circuit, PERIOD!!
I install grounds on neutral with leathers.Neutral is grounded every other pole with #3 copper.Does anyone see a problem?

[LAMartin.CVEC]

clean neutral with wire brush, install ground on neutral with shotgun, install on phase with shotgun..

This ^ after testing for dead and tagging my leads. If using "self cleaning" grounding clamps the cleaning the conductor part can be omitted however it is still a good practice.

Work Safely,

L.A. Martin
Journeyman Div III
CVEC

[jerry]

When I started doing line work(1965) we never grounded secondaries, I still wouldn't today. I Changed companies in 1982 ,Florida power Corp. and they required secondaries to be grounded.Had a Lineman open a CSP Transformer switch and put a ground on without testing,he got a face full of fire. Never trust a CSP Transformer switch!

[UGL]

When I started doing line work(1965) we never grounded secondaries, I still wouldn't today. I Changed companies in 1982 ,Florida power Corp. and they required secondaries to be grounded.Had a Lineman open a CSP Transformer switch and put a ground on without testing,he got a face full of fire. Never trust a CSP Transformer switch!

My company doesn't ground secondary either. something to do with amp ratings on the grounds. I always just figured even if secondaries were grounded and some how became energized the transformer would just see the grounds as load, and well burn baby burn.

[reppy007]

I more or less was thinking of backfeed....oh well.

[rob8210]

I worked at one place that required you to disconnect the secondary leads when working on or near an isolated transformer, grounding the secondaries was acceptable too. Some years ago I was on a project to change out elbows and inserts on padmount transformers. After isolating and grounding the primary we would ground the secondary to prevent backfeed, it saved a fair bit of time . We made a ground from a set of jumper cables, were we could clip onto the secondary lugs and ground to the system neutral

[bluestreak]

For years the safety book said you have to use co approved grounds in order to grd. The problem was we never had co approved secondary grds a lot of homemade stuff like jumper cables and the like but if any of you have seen a video on fault current you know that type of clamp is inadequate . In the last five or ten years we locally developed in the underground putting a Chance ball and socket grd stud in new installations on three phase pads and each truck has a set of grounds of the socket grounds so you get a good tight connection that won't blow off in case of mistaken energising, Still don't have co approved overhead secondary grds, of course the professional smart guys just tell us to use our regular grounds on open wire or triplex secondaries. I do remember one of the old timers used to say all you need for a secondary grd when doing a cutover [ 4800 delta to 23kv wye] was to lay your klien wrench across the secondary bushings.

[reppy007]

For years the safety book said you have to use co approved grounds in order to grd. The problem was we never had co approved secondary grds a lot of homemade stuff like jumper cables and the like but if any of you have seen a video on fault current you know that type of clamp is inadequate . In the last five or ten years we locally developed in the underground putting a Chance ball and socket grd stud in new installations on three phase pads and each truck has a set of grounds of the socket grounds so you get a good tight connection that won't blow off in case of mistaken energising, Still don't have co approved overhead secondary grds, of course the professional smart guys just tell us to use our regular grounds on open wire or triplex secondaries. I do remember one of the old timers used to say all you need for a secondary grd when doing a cutover [ 4800 delta to 23kv wye] was to lay your klien wrench across the secondary bushings.

bluestreak,you brought back a memory,I have also seen that...a guy climbs a pole with a transformer on it and takes his cresent wrench off his belt and lays it over the bushings....its grounded....takes the wrench off and begins working.....yeap,seen that.

[reppy007]

Also have pulled up on down wires mostly where the pea-vine is on the street/front easement and had customers wanting to roll up downed wire,or touch it before we have a chance to ground it....One such customer happened to be a high school principle that put the paddle to me more than once as a teen...you would think he would know better....it was my turn to give him the class.:cool:

[rob8210]

Yeah the jumper cable thing wasn't meant to prevent accidentally energizing a can, just to prove the secondaries were isolated. Nothing in our rule book to require secondary grounds. My theory is at least you did something to mininze the hazard.

[copperlineman]

I'll be the second guys to admit placing the ground end of the jumper on a neutral with leather gloves. It's the neutral. It's ground potential. It does carry current, but that's why you don't open it, it's not why you can't touch it without rubber gloves.
Our neutrals were clamped to the pole and not insulated on a spool insulator. We wanted them grounded as best we could. The neutral was at the same potential as the pole we were standing on. Doesn't make much sense to put rubber gloves on your hands when your feet are around the ground wire attached to the neutral.

Do you use primary rubber gloves to attach a house service neutral conductor to the system neutral? Then do you take off the primary gloves and put on secondary gloves to attach the 120v phases?
Do you wear gloves to install a staple on a ground wire? It's attached to the neutral, so is it treated the same?
What is the problem using leather gloves to attach one end of a ground jumper to the neutral with the other end isolated and probably across your belt or lying in the bucket next to your uncovered leg? Then...you use a hot stick to ground the object (that was previously energized) being grounded.

[Bighorn Ape]

I'll be the second guys to admit placing the ground end of the jumper on a neutral with leather gloves. It's the neutral. It's ground potential. It does carry current, but that's why you don't open it, it's not why you can't touch it without rubber gloves.
Our neutrals were clamped to the pole and not insulated on a spool insulator. We wanted them grounded as best we could. The neutral was at the same potential as the pole we were standing on. Doesn't make much sense to put rubber gloves on your hands when your feet are around the ground wire attached to the neutral.

Do you use primary rubber gloves to attach a house service neutral conductor to the system neutral? Then do you take off the primary gloves and put on secondary gloves to attach the 120v phases?
Do you wear gloves to install a staple on a ground wire? It's attached to the neutral, so is it treated the same?
What is the problem using leather gloves to attach one end of a ground jumper to the neutral with the other end isolated and probably across your belt or lying in the bucket next to your uncovered leg? Then...you use a hot stick to ground the object (that was previously energized) being grounded.


good point copperLM.... i never heard this rule until reading about it on this website...that said, i have encountered poorly grounded neutrals that buzz like crazy to the leathers.... just gotta stay isolated from another potential like a pole ground.

next time i see this im gonna get a voltage reading from the neut to a pole ground to see what is actually there.

[Lineman North Florida]

I'll be the second guys to admit placing the ground end of the jumper on a neutral with leather gloves. It's the neutral. It's ground potential. It does carry current, but that's why you don't open it, it's not why you can't touch it without rubber gloves.
Our neutrals were clamped to the pole and not insulated on a spool insulator. We wanted them grounded as best we could. The neutral was at the same potential as the pole we were standing on. Doesn't make much sense to put rubber gloves on your hands when your feet are around the ground wire attached to the neutral.

Do you use primary rubber gloves to attach a house service neutral conductor to the system neutral? Then do you take off the primary gloves and put on secondary gloves to attach the 120v phases?
Do you wear gloves to install a staple on a ground wire? It's attached to the neutral, so is it treated the same?
What is the problem using leather gloves to attach one end of a ground jumper to the neutral with the other end isolated and probably across your belt or lying in the bucket next to your uncovered leg? Then...you use a hot stick to ground the object (that was previously energized) being grounded. If I gave the impression in my post that I hadn't put grounds on a neutral with leathers that was not my intention, the original question was what tool did we use to install grounds with, I took it for granted that most places that don't have a ground to ground rubber glove policy probably have no problem putting the ground on the neutral conductor by hand with leather gloves and the phases with a shotgun stick, that is usually how I do it with the exception of if I am grounding transmission or distribution with a static and no neutral.

[rob8210]

We used to connect a ground to the neutral with leather gloves, but most utilities here have gotten really crazy strict about the ground to ground rubber glove rule. Most places have an un-insulated neutral too, so no reason to be at a different potential.

[kooman]

It really bothers me that there are guys that work primary neutrals without rubber gloves and think its ok to do so.

[lewy]

I see no problem touching the neutral with leather gloves, our neutrals are well below primary with multiple attachments to down grounds. Also our neutrals are not insulated & along with this the communication messenger below is bonded to our neutral. What about when you climb above it, does any part of your body touch the neutral?

[kooman]

This is one of those topics that can be argured all day long. my problem is the fact that the neutral carries current back to the source, and the path of least resistance is of course the neutra,l as long as it is not opened up, most of the current travels down the neutral and not down the pole grounds, however some current can travel down the pole grounds as well under certain circumstances i.e. a fault somewhere on that circuit such as a squirrel, or what if there is a cap. fuse blown somewhere on that circuit? Or lets say its a trans pole and the wire on the pole betweene the tank and the system neutral conductor, what happens if you get betweene that? So there could be a difference in potential from the neutral to the pole or down ground and we all know what a difference in potential can do. I know grabbing the neutral usually wont do anything to you but i think the neutral has gotten a sence of security among the new guys and they need to understand the "what if's" about it.

[Pootnaigle]

Ummmmmmmmm an even more dangerous thing is the practice of using A secondary neutral on a span of cable as a system neutral I have seen it done and its a trap for the feller that has the job of removing that span of secondary years later.It was real common in the Houston area years ago

[kooman]

Ummmmmmmmm an even more dangerous thing is the practice of using A secondary neutral on a span of cable as a system neutral I have seen it done and its a trap for the feller that has the job of removing that span of secondary years later.It was real common in the Houston area years ago

yea we still have some of those death traps left too.

[reppy007]

Poot is telling the truth,its as common as putting on your shoe's here,always has been that way since Ive known....so common that we dont see it as a trap...its that common.

[copperlineman]

It really bothers me that there are guys that work primary neutrals without rubber gloves and think its ok to do so.

Of course there are guys that work primary neutrals without rubber gloves. NEVER OPEN a neutral without jumpering across it first and wearing rubber gloves, but we're talking about touching a neutral and putting a grounding jumper on it. What is your company doing with the neutral that makes it so dangerous you can't touch it?
For you guys who practice "ground to ground" rubber gloves, you have to wear gloves all the time, I'm not talking about you. I'm not talking about static neutrals or transmission. I'm talking a regular distribution wye system with a multi-grounded neutral. Transmission is a whole new game.
Around here, we ground the neutral at least every 600ft and at every equipment pole. NESC (who sets our rules) say ground rods must be 25 ohms of resistance or less. Ours are less than that and most of our grounds go 30 feet. Our neutrals are 1/0 minimum. Neutrals carry the unbalanced current, not all the current. Sounds like you guys should add more grounds and make them better grounds, and maybe balance the load on the phases.
Your system is only as good as your grounds. Every pole down ground should be connected to your neutral. You should not be able to take a reading between the two because they are one. A pole can be up to 70% ground potential too, so clamp the neutral to the pole and get it off the spool insulators. That may help as much as a #6 ground wire.
Lastly, if you have to wear gloves to connect your grounding jumper to the neutral because it's a hazard, and then "ground" the primary with it, is your primary really grounded???

[rob8210]

I totally agree with copperlineman. A neutral should be grounded, here the rule is every 5th pole and at every equipment pole. We also use a hubbard that bolts the neutral directly to the pole. Neutral , downground and pole is all at same potential. I have found a bit of voltage on a system neutral , but I have never heard of more than 14volts. When I found it there was a defective primary insulator and no neutral ground on that pole. The nearest downground drained it away. I too have used leathers installing grounds onto the neutral and a shotgun for grounding phases.

[kooman]

all of our wye circuits are shielded construction (neutral on pole top) and every pole has a 1/0 down ground running down it, crimped to #6 copper, then to either a butt plate or a ground rod. we are not a cradle to cradle company but we are required to wear rubbers on a system neutral because it is a current carrying conductor. You asked what is our company is doing to make it so dangerous? We are operating an electric utility, pretty dangerous.
Of course there are guys that work primary neutrals without rubber gloves. NEVER OPEN a neutral without jumpering across it first and wearing rubber gloves, but we're talking about touching a neutral and putting a grounding jumper on it. What is your company doing with the neutral that makes it so dangerous you can't touch it?
For you guys who practice "ground to ground" rubber gloves, you have to wear gloves all the time, I'm not talking about you. I'm not talking about static neutrals or transmission. I'm talking a regular distribution wye system with a multi-grounded neutral. Transmission is a whole new game.
Around here, we ground the neutral at least every 600ft and at every equipment pole. NESC (who sets our rules) say ground rods must be 25 ohms of resistance or less. Ours are less than that and most of our grounds go 30 feet. Our neutrals are 1/0 minimum. Neutrals carry the unbalanced current, not all the current. Sounds like you guys should add more grounds and make them better grounds, and maybe balance the load on the phases.
Your system is only as good as your grounds. Every pole down ground should be connected to your neutral. You should not be able to take a reading between the two because they are one. A pole can be up to 70% ground potential too, so clamp the neutral to the pole and get it off the spool insulators. That may help as much as a #6 ground wire.
Lastly, if you have to wear gloves to connect your grounding jumper to the neutral because it's a hazard, and then "ground" the primary with it, is your primary really grounded???

[lewy]

Of course there are guys that work primary neutrals without rubber gloves. NEVER OPEN a neutral without jumpering across it first and wearing rubber gloves, but we're talking about touching a neutral and putting a grounding jumper on it. What is your company doing with the neutral that makes it so dangerous you can't touch it?
For you guys who practice "ground to ground" rubber gloves, you have to wear gloves all the time, I'm not talking about you. I'm not talking about static neutrals or transmission. I'm talking a regular distribution wye system with a multi-grounded neutral. Transmission is a whole new game.
Around here, we ground the neutral at least every 600ft and at every equipment pole. NESC (who sets our rules) say ground rods must be 25 ohms of resistance or less. Ours are less than that and most of our grounds go 30 feet. Our neutrals are 1/0 minimum. Neutrals carry the unbalanced current, not all the current. Sounds like you guys should add more grounds and make them better grounds, and maybe balance the load on the phases.
Your system is only as good as your grounds. Every pole down ground should be connected to your neutral. You should not be able to take a reading between the two because they are one. A pole can be up to 70% ground potential too, so clamp the neutral to the pole and get it off the spool insulators. That may help as much as a #6 ground wire.
Lastly, if you have to wear gloves to connect your grounding jumper to the neutral because it's a hazard, and then "ground" the primary with it, is your primary really grounded???
We are a ground to ground utility which means we only have to wear our rubbers until everything is grounded. In the example Kooman gave about the transformer we would have to be wearing our rubbers because there is energized conductor on the pole. Once the line is properly grounded using EPZ & there are no other energized conductors on the pole I see no reason to be wearing rubber gloves & obviously you could handle the neutral as well.

[UGL]

We are a ground to ground utility which means we only have to wear our rubbers until everything is grounded. In the example Kooman gave about the transformer we would have to be wearing our rubbers because there is energized conductor on the pole. Once the line is properly grounded using EPZ & there are no other energized conductors on the pole I see no reason to be wearing rubber gloves & obviously you could handle the neutral as well.

lucky. we to are ground to ground. the only time I'm allowed to come out of my rubber is if the conductors are grounded and there is a visible separation with in sight of where the work is being done. we can also come out of them if we are in a position we can't reach the O.H. conductors and the ground man takes our controls. for example making terminations.

[Bighorn Ape]

Of course there are guys that work primary neutrals without rubber gloves. NEVER OPEN a neutral without jumpering across it first and wearing rubber gloves, but we're talking about touching a neutral and putting a grounding jumper on it. What is your company doing with the neutral that makes it so dangerous you can't touch it?
For you guys who practice "ground to ground" rubber gloves, you have to wear gloves all the time, I'm not talking about you. I'm not talking about static neutrals or transmission. I'm talking a regular distribution wye system with a multi-grounded neutral. Transmission is a whole new game.
Around here, we ground the neutral at least every 600ft and at every equipment pole. NESC (who sets our rules) say ground rods must be 25 ohms of resistance or less. Ours are less than that and most of our grounds go 30 feet. Our neutrals are 1/0 minimum. Neutrals carry the unbalanced current, not all the current. Sounds like you guys should add more grounds and make them better grounds, and maybe balance the load on the phases.
Your system is only as good as your grounds. Every pole down ground should be connected to your neutral. You should not be able to take a reading between the two because they are one. A pole can be up to 70% ground potential too, so clamp the neutral to the pole and get it off the spool insulators. That may help as much as a #6 ground wire.
Lastly, if you have to wear gloves to connect your grounding jumper to the neutral because it's a hazard, and then "ground" the primary with it, is your primary really grounded???

in this post you mention static neutrals with transmission....how do yall deal with the static? ive only worked on de energized transmission circuits...so when we ground transmission we use a shotgun while applying the grounds on the static.....although i have seen a ground placed on the static by hand as well...is that not safe?

2 year Ape...i dont know everything. thanks.

[Pootnaigle]

Ummmmmmmmmm on transmission you never ever wanna touch that static . It could be deadly. I bleve the proper term is induced voltage and it will hurt you.

[copperlineman]

all of our wye circuits are shielded construction (neutral on pole top) and every pole has a 1/0 down ground running down it, crimped to #6 copper, then to either a butt plate or a ground rod. we are not a cradle to cradle company but we are required to wear rubbers on a system neutral because it is a current carrying conductor. You asked what is our company is doing to make it so dangerous? We are operating an electric utility, pretty dangerous.

Ok kooman here’s what you do. It’s your company’s requirement to wear rubber gloves on the neutral, so when you install the ground end of a grounding jumper on the neutral, that’s what you do. Wear your rubber gloves. I’m 100% in favor of employees following their company’s rules. There’s a post on the safety forum right now where I state that very thing.
But…it’s your company rule, not everyone’s, so excuse me for placing that jumper wearing my leather gloves. Both of us are compliant with OSHA and NESC so we're both good. You wear rubber because the neutral is a current carrying conductor. I wear leather because the neutral is at ground potential.
I'm good with my rule and sounds like you're good with yours.
Good topic. Thanks for sharing.