Limiting work to one conductor or potential at a time

[necpoletop]

yesterday I had a safety crew check while we were changing out a 3 phase pole crossing the hywy and they got me for having two phases tied to one bucket and one phase tied to the other bucket the nuetral was tied back to a bucket, he said we can handle only one phase at a time my safety book doesnt give me much detail on this matter,only says, workers should avoid difference in potential by limiting work to one conductor at a time. Any advice on this matter?

[reppy007]

yesterday I had a safety crew check while we were changing out a 3 phase pole crossing the hywy and they got me for having two phases tied to one bucket and one phase tied to the other bucket the nuetral was tied back to a bucket, he said we can handle only one phase at a time my safety book doesnt give me much detail on this matter,only says, workers should avoid difference in potential by limiting work to one conductor at a time. Any advice on this matter?

It doesnt sound like they want you to be handling more than one phase at a time,like here,is there any other way the phases could have been tied?I would think so....did you have time to tie them off to another piece of equipment,tree,ect....When you say bucket..are you saying the truck or the actual buckets?

[Pootnaigle]

Ummmm thats been a cardinal rule for as long as I can remember.

[necpoletop]

we untied one at a time one phase tied to anchor point of the boom the other tied to the jib, the nuetral was tied off with a link stick to a truck bumber, we could not float phases due to trees in between poles, and the other bucket truck had only one phase tied to its anchor point.I was lucky to have an extra bucket truck that day.

[joelineman]

were you trying to do a spot set or just getting out of digging a hole. either way there should be no reason to tie off all phases in all directions. i see what you were going for and it sounds good but realistically it seems over complicated. KISS dude. "keep it simple stupid"

[rob8210]

You normally do not handle more than 1 phase at a time, its the difference in potential that'll get ya. That being said I was in a position once where I had to move 2 phases at the same time, I had to lower them below the existing x-arm or stringing and could not tie back or float the near phase. What did I do? Well , the near phase I covered up well with rubber hose then I untied it and relocated it onto my fiberglass jib behind me and secured it. Then I turned around and placed the center phase in the jib head , it was rubbered up too. Then I was able to drive both phases where they had to go and hung them on suspension insulators. It is my experience that if you think about the situation and make use of the equipment you have , you can most likely come up with a safe practical way to do what seems impossible. You just have to think well outside the box!!!!

[lewy]

You should never be handling 2 conductors at the same time, even if covered out of one truck. You can move one at a time & secure them with a link stick or auxiliary arm, or have the second truck handling a different phase. You could have a phase tied off with a link stick attached to your truck (not boom)& work another phase. But again working 2 phases at the same time out of 1 truck is a bad idea as rubber is only meant for brush contact & your jib is not the same as a live line tool.

[linemanfrog]

Seen other companies tie multiple phases off on one truck doing pole change outs and such, but I do not believe it is a safe practice or a prudent one either. Can it be done, the obvious answer is yes since many people have, and continue to do it. Should it be done..........absolutely not. Too many things can go wrong and then what is the lineman in the bucket going to do? With all the equipment that is available, hot arms, lay out sticks, etc, why would you want to put yourself in harms way?

The jib, nor the jib rope, is rated for voltage on any truck I have worked out of. In fact the bucket itself is not rated insulation, that is the reason you are required to use a dielectric liner inside of the bucket when you are performing hot work.

On another note, I am against tying any phase off to my bucket for any length of time unless absolutely needed because then you are limited in what you can do and where you can go if things were to turn bad. I guess it all depends on what you were taught and how you were raised in the trade. Just because you can do something does not make it right or even smart to do it.

[rob8210]

I have heard that line before that the jib is not a live line too, Lewy, so tell me , what in the devil i it? I know ours are tested the same as hotsticks. Also if that is the case how can you perform a live line pole change if the jib is not a live line tool? using that thinking , moving wire with a jib alive is no different than moving wire while resting it on the edge of a bucket , covered up of course. I'm really interested to hear that explaination. No how about live 44kv, 69kv, 115kv , etc?

[linemanfrog]

I would venture to guess that even if the jibs are tested in the same manner as hotsticks they are not treated the same. Do you run the jib out enough to meet the minimum approach distance when you have multiple phases tied off to the boom. Does the jib get waxed and wiped down prior to use. Etc.

We move hot phases all the time both covered and not covered and seldom is the jib run out enough to meet the MAD. However we only work one phase or potential at a time. 9

[US & CA Tramp]

I have heard that line before that the jib is not a live line too, Lewy, so tell me , what in the devil i it? I know ours are tested the same as hotsticks. Also if that is the case how can you perform a live line pole change if the jib is not a live line tool? using that thinking , moving wire with a jib alive is no different than moving wire while resting it on the edge of a bucket , covered up of course. I'm really interested to hear that explaination. No how about live 44kv, 69kv, 115kv , etc?

The jib on a bucket can be used as a hot stick as long as it is tested and maintained as a hot stick. There are several types of end attachments to use on the jib for the type of job being performed. If you are using the rope in the winch on energized equipment you would need to use a link stick with it. The jib should always be extended to maintain the MAD, and only one phase at a time should be worked on. You may get by time after time breaking these common sense regulations, but then again you may not.

[T-Man]

Ummmm thats been a cardinal rule for as long as I can remember.

I'm with you Poot on this one. Never get between phases or phase and ground. . .NEVER

[lewy]

I have heard that line before that the jib is not a live line too, Lewy, so tell me , what in the devil i it? I know ours are tested the same as hotsticks. Also if that is the case how can you perform a live line pole change if the jib is not a live line tool? using that thinking , moving wire with a jib alive is no different than moving wire while resting it on the edge of a bucket , covered up of course. I'm really interested to hear that explaination. No how about live 44kv, 69kv, 115kv , etc?

All of our live line tools are tested 100 kv per foot, the jib is not tested the same as live line tools. When doing stick & jib work up to 44kv, bare conductor in jib (i will not comment on voltages above that as we do not work anything higher) you have to have the appropriate amount of jib out, more than you would need with a live line tool, 4' of jib & when touching the pole you have to wear your rubber gloves.

[rob8210]

So is 4' of jib enough? Lets see, 3' reach with your arm plus 2' limits of approach means 5' of jib unless your wearing rubber gloves. And that would be a minimum. Now is there anything wrong with holding a phase in the wire head and using a rope and a link stick to hang another phase from the other end? Just asking

[US & CA Tramp]

So is 4' of jib enough? Lets see, 3' reach with your arm plus 2' limits of approach means 5' of jib unless your wearing rubber gloves. And that would be a minimum. Now is there anything wrong with holding a phase in the wire head and using a rope and a link stick to hang another phase from the other end? Just asking

THAT IS CALLED WORKING TWO PHASES AT A TIME!! IT IS A NO NO
Also a neutral is considered a phase as well since it carries current. If you don't believe it check the neutral with a amp meter.

[lewy]

So is 4' of jib enough? Lets see, 3' reach with your arm plus 2' limits of approach means 5' of jib unless your wearing rubber gloves. And that would be a minimum. Now is there anything wrong with holding a phase in the wire head and using a rope and a link stick to hang another phase from the other end? Just asking

I should have been a little clearer about the 4' of jib, that is the minimum with the jib fully retracted & again you have to be wearing your rubbers to touch the pole. Electrically nothing would happen, but for the life of me I could never see a time when you would want to do that, to many things to worry about, the clearance between that phase in the link stick & your upper boom, trying to watch 2 phase as you rotate the boom, just wouldn't be an option around me.

[rob8210]

No I would not call that working 2 phases at the same time, not when you are using a jib and a link stick to support them. Working 2 phases at the same time would be one hand on one phase and the other hand on a different phase. Have you never lifted a phase out of the way with your jib so as to access another phase. The situation would be one in which you have no option of tying off the first phase. What about using your jib to hold a phase while you change out a defective insulator?.I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to do what I was talking about earlier with uncovered phases. and without using a link stick or 2. Quite a few years ago conductors were relocated by holding a covered up phase on the edge of the bucket. (no jibs)

[US & CA Tramp]

No I would not call that working 2 phases at the same time, not when you are using a jib and a link stick to support them. Working 2 phases at the same time would be one hand on one phase and the other hand on a different phase. Have you never lifted a phase out of the way with your jib so as to access another phase. The situation would be one in which you have no option of tying off the first phase. What about using your jib to hold a phase while you change out a defective insulator?.I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to do what I was talking about earlier with uncovered phases. and without using a link stick or 2. Quite a few years ago conductors were relocated by holding a covered up phase on the edge of the bucket. (no jibs)

None of what you just wrote makes the jobs right or safe. Why would you tie your bucket up like that?? Always think about the maximum fault current available at the work site and the ARC that can occur If something goes wrong. But then again it is your life.

[Lineman North Florida]

I may be in the minority but I don't see anything wrong with putting a phase in your jib head to hold it temporarily while you change out an insulator.

[Pootnaigle]

I may be in the minority but I don't see anything wrong with putting a phase in your jib head to hold it temporarily while you change out an insulator.

Ummmmmmmm I bleve thatsa purdy common practice

[jerry]

No,never work with two different phases. I was taught that most of Linework is using common sense and the fact that you are asking this questions tells me you know it is not a good practice.

[US & CA Tramp]

Ummmmmmmm I bleve thatsa purdy common practice

This is the last time I beat this dead horse.
No mater how fast you are in a situation you all see no problem with, S--t happens. Lifting a phase on the edge of a bucket has never been a good or safe practice no matter how much cover you have on it. I watched an extreme arc flash occur in the same type of scenario you have previously described, and was unable to do much quickly because the bucket was tied up, RIP. Just because they did it that way in the 50s', 60s', and 70s', does not make it right or safe. Good Luck

[Pootnaigle]

Ummmmmmmm the common Practice I wuz referring to wuz holding a phase with the jib as you changed an insulator.

[US & CA Tramp]

Ummmmmmmm the common Practice I wuz referring to wuz holding a phase with the jib as you changed an insulator.

That was my main focus as well.

[Pootnaigle]

Ummmmmmmm well based on the fact that they build, and market a wire tong for them jibs and they are commonly purchased by major players in the lectric industry I suspect they dont see it as a transgression to the rule for working only one potential.

[lewy]

Ummmmmmmm well based on the fact that they build, and market a wire tong for them jibs and they are commonly purchased by major players in the lectric industry I suspect they dont see it as a transgression to the rule for working only one potential.

Changing insulators with an uncovered energized phase in the jib is an acceptable work practice as long as you have the appropriate amount of jib out for the voltage and you are wearing rubber gloves when touching the pole, but just remember that the jib is not a true live line tool, it is not foam filled, it is not stored the same, it is not tested the same & it is moving through a jib support.

[Pootnaigle]

ummmmmmmmm agreed, however tying hot phases off to the boom iz not a good plan. neither is laying multiple phases across the boom to support em while yer changing an arm, But if them fellers wuznt lying to me its The method that Pike electric mandates their employees to use.

[LAMartin.CVEC]

Here at CVEC we have inserts for the jibs that are used and treated as live line tools they are tested per OSHA standards and allow us to move multiple conductors during routine maintenance (pole change outs, insulating, rephaseing/conductoring).

We up the testing to one year and test all our inserts gin sticks extension links and more. You can use these trucks with more then one potential: if you have the PROPER equipment! That said equipment must also be properly tested as well as stored. There are some that leave these inserts in the jib or the bucket and NO liveline tool should be stored that way as most of you well know.

I'll not rant about this as that it's late and it's been a long day.

Work Safely,

L.A. Martin
Journeyman Div III
CVEC

[lewy]

Here at CVEC we have inserts for the jibs that are used and treated as live line tools they are tested per OSHA standards and allow us to move multiple conductors during routine maintenance (pole change outs, insulating, rephaseing/conductoring).

We up the testing to one year and test all our inserts gin sticks extension links and more. You can use these trucks with more then one potential: if you have the PROPER equipment! That said equipment must also be properly tested as well as stored. There are some that leave these inserts in the jib or the bucket and NO liveline tool should be stored that way as most of you well know.

I'll not rant about this as that it's late and it's been a long day.

Work Safely,

L.A. Martin
Journeyman Div III
CVEC

Yes there are engineered live line tools that allow you to do a 3 phase lift (Hastings) I have never used one, but as far as using your jib to lift more than one phase or putting covered phases on the boom or bucket, these are all shortcuts from the past that most of us have either done or seen done. They are work practices that no longer should be done with all of the different equipment & tools we have to temparily relocate conductor.

[rob8210]

You guys on here can be quite entertaining at times. Even though you don't know the complete reasoning behind why a fella would do something unusual, or bother to ask what voltage was involved you''ll start jumping on a fella and outright condemn a practice. First the idea of usuing the jib to support 2 phases had a purpose, and the voltage was 4kv, I wouldn't do it on a higher voltage without a different piece of equipment, at least a couple of insulators. Second using a jib to hold a phase while changing an insulator is a common practice. And third, I was pointing out a past practice that used to be commonplace, namely re-locating conductor using the edge of a bucket. No longer done , jibs are very common now. It is my experience that thinking outside the box is rare. A well trained fella, using some common sense and the equipment available to him can do a lot of work, safely. Here is a question for ya. What would you fellas do on a job site 30- 40 miles from the shop , were you needed to support a phase temporarily , and you would normally use a link stick but found it was defective, and a temporary arm was not available? ( The solution is very simple)

[Pootnaigle]

ummmmmmm I would prolly use a string of deadend insulators in place of the link stick

[rob8210]

Yep Poot, dead on. That is exactly what I would do and have done in the past. I wonder though how many people would whine just because it wasn't tested like a link stick.

[birdog37]

Jibs with our company and previous company are not tested like the bucket is or the boom.Simply put it is not a live line tool.Our rules state one phase at a time.The company i worked for previously even if you had 2 buckets ya could only work one phase at a time.This is ridiculous,never followed that rule.This company was trying hard for ya to do your job besides cover there as..........They also wanted you to maintain positive control.Alot of times i would put a hose on the line,wrap the winch line around the hose,pick phase up and this would allow you to move and the hose to slide on the conductor as you moved.

[lewy]

Jibs with our company and previous company are not tested like the bucket is or the boom.Simply put it is not a live line tool.Our rules state one phase at a time.The company i worked for previously even if you had 2 buckets ya could only work one phase at a time.This is ridiculous,never followed that rule.This company was trying hard for ya to do your job besides cover there as..........They also wanted you to maintain positive control.Alot of times i would put a hose on the line,wrap the winch line around the hose,pick phase up and this would allow you to move and the hose to slide on the conductor as you moved.

There is no issue with 2 different trucks working 2 different phases. If you are going to use your winch line instead of the wire holder at the end of the jib you should also be using a link stick. Why do you use the method you stated as compared to putting the wire in the wire holder? You have the best control of the wire when it is in the jib head.

[jerry]

I disagree with Lewy,you should not work on different phases on the same structure even with 2 Trucks. I had that dicussion when I was still working,had 2 Bone heads do that while I was tying in a phase and they almost lost the Phase ,which had a slight corner on it. I didn't realize they were moving it(Had back to them)and it would have hit me in the back. I think there is to much of the Git'er Done mentality in Linework today with a lack of communication between crew members. Teamwork has became a dirty word,but that is what keeps people safe,watching out for each other.

[BUZZMAN4177]

yesterday I had a safety crew check while we were changing out a 3 phase pole crossing the hywy and they got me for having two phases tied to one bucket and one phase tied to the other bucket the nuetral was tied back to a bucket, he said we can handle only one phase at a time my safety book doesnt give me much detail on this matter,only says, workers should avoid difference in potential by limiting work to one conductor at a time. Any advice on this matter?

To the OP....I have worked on many different power Systems in the past and each and every one interpret "this rule" a little differently. My advice to you, is to talk to your safety crew and have them clarify "this rule" for you.....therefore, next time you will KNOW what you CAN and CANNOT do regarding your safety rules. I have, on many occasions used a 'three phase jib support' (made by CHANCE and HUBBELL) to change cross arms in a material handler, working alone. I have even used this device to hold all three phases up and out of the way while a pole was being pulled and a new one reset. 5005 The company allowed the use of this device "to work on more than one potential" at a time. Having said that, you should know that you CANNOT touch two different phases or potentials at the same time!!! Talk to your safety department for a clear and precise explanation of your rules.....

[lewy]

I disagree with Lewy,you should not work on different phases on the same structure even with 2 Trucks. I had that dicussion when I was still working,had 2 Bone heads do that while I was tying in a phase and they almost lost the Phase ,which had a slight corner on it. I didn't realize they were moving it(Had back to them)and it would have hit me in the back. I think there is to much of the Git'er Done mentality in Linework today with a lack of communication between crew members. Teamwork has became a dirty word,but that is what keeps people safe,watching out for each other.
For us when we have 2 trucks it allows the one truck to hold a phase clearly out of the way or they are on the opposite side of the pole, some will use an RBD with a link stick to hold a phase out of the way. Like any live line work for us we have to have a dedicated observer who has no other task and also good communication between everyone involved in the job

[rob8210]

There is nothing wrong with using 2 trucks to to complete a job.In fact 2 trucks set up back to back can be a very effective way to complete a job safely. Now if one truck is holding a phase out of the way, once in position he should not move around while the first truck completes the task he is doing. Especially when working on a corner. Both trucks should be bonded together and grounded to the system neutral. And of course the lineman need to talk to each other.