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torren61
10-31-2012, 08:59 PM
How do you treat your ground men and apprentices?

Maybe the question should be "How were YOU treated as a ground man or apprentice?". I don't know about you, but I was treated like "lower than whale sh!t". The linemen I worked under were old power company hands who were linemen in the 1950's. They treated their groundmen and apprentices badly because that was the way it was done. I suppose they wanted to haze me to see if they could break me.

I didn't respond well to that treatment and I paid the price. I wouldn't do it any differently despite what I had to go through. I am a man, number one and a ground man or apprentice, number two. Their way of "educating" me was not conducive to my learning abilities.

I made up my mind early on that I would not treat another man that way if I could avoid it. There is a fact that some people may not understand. Line work is not a job that everyone can do. It takes a certain kind of person to do this work. We are unique and that's why they pay us well.

I prefer to take the time initially to thoroughly explain the task I am assigning my groundman or apprentice. I figure, if he understands EXACTLY what I want and EXACTLY how to do the task, I am more likely to get the desired results.

A comparison set of examples is this: I worked with another lineman who treated his groundman the way I was treated. He was on a pole and was trying to explain to his groundman how to pull a guy wire and make up a guy preform. His groundman was new and had never experienced making up a guy. He was yelling at his groundman and calling him names that i cannot type here. He was completely degrading his apprentice and the man was not able to properly complete his task.

At the same time, I was working with my groundman. We were working on another down guy at the same three pole structure. I patiently explained to my groundman step by step how to pull and make up the guy. I showed him how many hoist clicks to take up for loss and how to make up the preform. He asked questions and I answered them concisely and calmly. The other lineman was yelling at his groundman and my groundman looked at me in a way that showed he knew how lucky he was to not be the other groundman.

When I had finished teaching my groundman, I was able to leave him to make up the other guy wires while i climbed my pole and worked on my task. The other groundman was still struggling with his guy and my groundman completed making up six guys. I also completed my task and came to the ground before the other lineman. My groundman taught the other groundman what he had learned.

The other lineman complained about how stupid his groundman was. I think we know who was the stupid one.

Word of advice to you new guys: There will be times when things are happening around you and you will be nervous and stressed. You may have someone yelling at you. You must tune out the yelling and THINK. Think about what is happening and what is the correct action. Even if it takes a bit more time to think about what you need to do... take the time. Ignore the yelling.

It's better if you take longer to do the right thing than to immediately do the wrong thing.

T-Man
10-31-2012, 09:26 PM
Great post.

I was treated like you, and I tried to never treat anyone like that.

torren61
10-31-2012, 09:36 PM
Great post.

I was treated like you, and I tried to never treat anyone like that.

That sucks but I'm glad you don't do that.

Pootnaigle
10-31-2012, 10:31 PM
uMMMMM i HAVE SEEN A LINMN COMPLETELY DESTROY AN APPRENTICES FAITH IN HIMSELF N THEY DIDNT LAST LONG AFTER THAT

Old Line Dog
10-31-2012, 10:57 PM
I had the same stuff. Was brought up in linework in the 60's.

I looked at as a "vetting" process. They were just "Fcukin" with me to see what I really was. Ya don't want to spend alot of time teachin somebody, that....when it comes down to it, really ain't worth a carp.

Course, stuff like that was "back in the day".

"Things' completely different nowdays....

I never treated my apprentices like that.

I told em what I wanted done, and How I wanted it done, and if I didn't get it done that way...yes, there was some butt chewin.

Sorry. I still believe, the LINEMAN is the "word" on the crew, and I'm sorry, apprentices and grunts, need to understand their place in the trade.

BUT...It's different nowdays, "politically" correct trade and all....:rolleyes:

However, I, like you Mr. torren, always took the time to talk and explain things to all my apprentices, once I understood they Really wanted to be in Linework.

reppy007
11-01-2012, 01:50 AM
Ive been there too...I wonder if anybody has invented safety gear for being painted...seen that hurt peoples pride.

dustyn77
11-01-2012, 06:58 PM
I think this is a good thread for people looking to get into the trade so they know what they are getting into. It gave me some insight considering that I'm finishing up line school and planning on going to work for swlcat. At least I already know the basics.

rob8210
11-02-2012, 12:49 PM
I apprenticed back in the day too, where a guy got chewed out if he didn't do things right. I also worked with guys that took time to teach a young fella about the trade, especially if he showed the interest and desire. Now there are time a fella needs to be chewed out, it makes for remembering really well. I work hard to treat everybody with the respect they deserve, but when you get a fella that won't learn, or refuses to listen what do you do? I have had guys that worked hard and showed the desire to learn. I have had guys that would not listen to their journeyman or foreman. I had one apprentice that would get in quite a snit if you would not let him go a job "his way" , even though it was unsafe. I had an apprentice that could not remember to put out cones, even after a year. He got chewed out. It takes a rare breed to be a good lineman and that breed is getting harder and harder to find, companies are settling on second best or worse. Scares me what is going to happen down the road. There are some guys that even unlimited amount of patience is not enough.

reppy007
11-02-2012, 01:21 PM
rob,im shaking my head...I mean if we all were to have a few drinks and someone told me that an apprentice that had over a year in the trade couldnt remember to put out cones,I might laugh.A helper,might not laugh....but an apprentice? Does he remember which hook goes on which leg....I might be asking for trouble by asking that...u r serious arent you?

rob8210
11-02-2012, 09:50 PM
Unfortunately Reppy , I am serious. The quality of the help is getting terrible. The worst part is the guy was a 3rd year apprentice. Even when I finally chewed them out they looked at me like I had two heads. Thats the part that scares me most. Now that being said I am working with 2 3rd years right now. The one guy has a heck of an attitude, when I told him up front that I am a bit old school and he might get s*** now and then, he just replied, "I guess I would deserve it then". The other guy sulks when he even thinks you are upset with him. I do believe in treating young guys properly, patience is required, but a bit of respect in return isn't too much to ask.

Pootnaigle
11-02-2012, 10:05 PM
Um evidently there is 2 schools of thought but this' I werked with a feller that chew yer hind end out if ever lil thang wuznt purfect m have seen him have a grunt in tears at the end of the day i bleve hid reasoning was if they dont want some of this they will try will tryy a lil harder
Later in life he becme a trainer n he wuzza purfectionist bout evr thang in his real life as well as his werkin life he was sharp as they come n could hold his own with any graduate engineevery thing he Eevery thing he ever undertook he did to perfection

torren61
11-02-2012, 10:17 PM
Um evidently there is 2 schools of thought but this' I werked with a feller that chew yer hind end out if ever lil thang wuznt purfect m have seen him have a grunt in tears at the end of the day i bleve hid reasoning was if they dont want some of this they will try will tryy a lil harder
Later in life he becme a trainer n he wuzza purfectionist bout evr thang in his real life as well as his werkin life he was sharp as they come n could hold his own with any graduate engineevery thing he Eevery thing he ever undertook he did to perfection

I hear ya but I'll bet he never called any apprentice or groundman a n*gg*r like the lineman in my story. (Not that it matters but the grunt was not black.)

Old Line Dog
11-02-2012, 10:18 PM
I have had guys that would not listen to their journeyman or foreman. I had one apprentice that would get in quite a snit if you would not let him go a job "his way" , even though it was unsafe. I had an apprentice that could not remember to put out cones, even after a year. He got chewed out.

I just don't understand how or WHY, companys don't Fire people like this!
In THIS trade, If a Lineman can't lay down the law to an app., ....this trade is.....

reppy007
11-03-2012, 01:55 AM
That old free speech stuff that we were brought up with is gone with the wind...nothing is free but the air....and like the internet, once it sent theres no getting it back....so watch out what you say,once its said,you better believe they will go running and telling .

torren61
11-03-2012, 09:31 AM
I HAVE had apprentices in the past who had attitudes. I let them know real quick that if they didn't want to give me the respect I deserve or they didn't want to listen... the information tap would simply turn off and they could figure it out for themselves. You all know of at least one example of an apprentice who was in with the boss and was nearly "untouchable". I won't work in such an environment because then it's not only the apprentice but the boss as well, so... later days, better lays. I'm gone.

The thread was meant to address how you go about teaching someone under your supervision. Uppity apes require a different thread, lol.

bren guzzi
11-03-2012, 11:18 AM
I had some really good teachers / mentors when I started this trade..and a few dumb @sses.. But ya learn from them all..... In any trade or in any walk of life really... You can only be as good as your taught..

If a dog bites someone. We all blame the dog.....

It ain't his fault... It's coz he weren't trained right...

BUT AS WITH DOG,S.. They suffer the consequences... ( and get put down ) ... And the owner fined... Disproportionate punishment for the dog.. :(

I spend a lot of time with apprentices. And try to help them along the way.. But within an hour or so... Ya know the good ones.... And ya tend to help them more , choosing some times subconsciously to " not waste your time with the others...."

Never shout at an apprentice., treat them with respect, and try listening to the young guy... They will tell ya all ya need to know if YA LET THEM. ...

Bullying don't work.. Try praise and respect... TRUST ME. ! Ya catch more bees with honey.

If they still ain't gonna make it.. Look them in the eye and tell them honestly WHY, And shake the guys hand.. Like ya did when ya met him...

This is how I TRY to do it.. ( don't always succeed ) but I will keep on trying..

torren61
11-03-2012, 06:58 PM
I had some really good teachers / mentors when I started this trade..and a few dumb @sses.. But ya learn from them all..... In any trade or in any walk of life really... You can only be as good as your taught..

If a dog bites someone. We all blame the dog.....

It ain't his fault... It's coz he weren't trained right...

BUT AS WITH DOG,S.. They suffer the consequences... ( and get put down ) ... And the owner fined... Disproportionate punishment for the dog.. :(

I spend a lot of time with apprentices. And try to help them along the way.. But within an hour or so... Ya know the good ones.... And ya tend to help them more , choosing some times subconsciously to " not waste your time with the others...."

Never shout at an apprentice., treat them with respect, and try listening to the young guy... They will tell ya all ya need to know if YA LET THEM. ...

Bullying don't work.. Try praise and respect... TRUST ME. ! Ya catch more bees with honey.

If they still ain't gonna make it.. Look them in the eye and tell them honestly WHY, And shake the guys hand.. Like ya did when ya met him...

This is how I TRY to do it.. ( don't always succeed ) but I will keep on trying..

.....yep.....

Old Line Dog
11-03-2012, 10:32 PM
The thread was meant to address how you go about teaching someone under your supervision. Uppity apes require a different thread, lol.

In a perfect world, right.

I use to teach the apps I was given, by who they showed themselves to be.... to me, and the interest and the attitude they showed me.

First off, I would teach them anything I knew, and always welcomed "Questions". I taught, as we worked, and always would answer any question they had.

Back in the day, "Respect" for the Journeyman, was a given. Otherwise, ya might have a "problem".

Nowdays? Not so much....Much more "Politically correct". We even need a "different thread" for "uppity apes". :-)

Yeah...I wouldn't participate in that thread.
"Slappin the siht" out of em, would be about all I would contribute.

reppy007
11-04-2012, 02:57 AM
I know there are some bad ones..but when you really think about it,an apprentice that isnt that sharp,or slow shouldnt always get the blame...take a moment and look who he has worked for...if a lineman is on the lazy side,the apprentice will sometimes be the same.If the lineman is breaking safety rules,the apprentice will sometimes follow.If the lineman isnt that sharp...well you know the rest.

rob8210
11-04-2012, 08:31 AM
Yeah Reppy that i quite true , an apprentice is only as good as the fella that trained him. That is why most places I have worked rotate apprentices from crew to crew, not only do they get experience in different aspects of the work but they also get taught by many different lineman. Some are great, some are good , some should be fired. A decent apprentice will be able to sort this part out. Its the ones that are full of themselves that scare me. Heck I've been in the trade 25 years and I learn something new almost everyday. Now I have a 3rd year right now that is suffering from a severe lack of experience, and he has a great attitude. I get him in the air every chance I can.

reppy007
11-04-2012, 09:04 AM
Ive seen apprentices stuck on two man trucks for years...then sent to a linecrew and were a little slow,but it wasnt their fault.Senority can screw a guy sometimes.Seen really good troubleshooters,but with not much big crew experience.Seen guys that have been on linecrews for years,then sent on a two man or 1 man truck,not that sharp on the small trucks.Seen people on linecrews that hate working alone,and seen guys that hate being on large crews...for me ,being around a newer apprentice is fun,makes the time go by.Seeing his reaction when he learns something new....and hearing them ask ,how did you know this or that.

Pootnaigle
11-04-2012, 09:59 AM
uM WHAT WUD YA SAT IF i TOLD YA M COMPANY USTA HIRE RIGHT OFF THE STREET N WHEREBER YS HIRED IN THATSS WHERE YOU STARTED PROGRESSIN//...... SERVICE MEN THAT HAAAVE NEVER WERKED A DAY ON A LINE CREW LINEMEN THAT HAVE NEVER WERKED ONNA SERVICE TRUCK/ IT LEAVES DOME PURDY BIG HOLESINNA FELLERS TRAINING NEVER MADE SENSE TO ME BUT i HIRED IN ASA GRUNT INNA LINECREW. i BLVE THEY HAVE GOT AWAY FROM THAT NOW.

reppy007
11-04-2012, 11:05 AM
Thats the way it was here...off the street..went to linecrews...I knew one guy that was a top notch lineman....met him with the contractors....later after he worked with a contractor that used to be a utility hand,and a slave driver we met up again....I asked the GF that if he could send the guy to my truck that I wouldnt ask for $hit anymore.Well that happened,the first day he worked with me he seemed very nervous,I told him to settle down,that I was layed back...he remained jittery for a couple of days....and that was due to the numbnut that went by the book and had one way of doing things....the hard way and his way.The guy settled down,came to work happy and went home happy.

bren guzzi
11-04-2012, 03:31 PM
As a great person once said... ( dunno who ) .. We reap what we sow.. Learn from past mistakes.



I remember when I was an apprentice . ( early 80,s) . There was a guy in charge of a crew I was sent too.
" BIG JOE GAVIGAN " In them days they often put the biggest guy in charge so he could rule through fear.. Any way one Monday morning we were hanging a single phase transformer on a little spur line.. I was hand drilling the holes for the tranny , with a rusty hand auger,..he was fitting the x arm above me.. He got finished and as he was drinking most of the weekend wanted to get down for a wizz... I was slowly trying to get my hole drilled with the rubbish tools I had...
He started shouting ( as usual ) ... The next thing I knew.. He "urinated" on me from above..
Thought this was very funny.. Now I was only 18 or 19.. But what joe didn't know was that I am a black belt at shotokan karate... And was in the under 21 Irish team..
When we climbed down.. I went after this guy..he was 6,6" and built like a tank.. A proper bully.
I walked up to him and asked him to apologise ( I was only 5,10) .. He laughed... I warned him that I was a karate expert and didn't want to fight but he needed to apologise ...
Unluckily for him he stood up and went to throw a punch.... I left him black and blue... And very apologetic ..
I'm not proud of that .. Violence is never the answer..

But from then on he only ever asked me to do things... NEVER TOLD ME. ..

reppy007
11-04-2012, 03:36 PM
You mean you didnt have your slicker suit on that day?A hoddy would have been good to have too...sorry.had to say that :D

T-Man
11-04-2012, 05:27 PM
Bren, you just gave another outstanding reason to treat others with respect. . . . If ya don't you may get your arse handed to you.:cool:

polehiker
11-04-2012, 09:22 PM
I caught a little sh-- when I hired on back in 62, but I don,t think it hurt me any. I still kept my pride and the old guys answered my questions when I asked. Before my first day, a neihgbor who was an old time phone lineman(yes ,those guys were good lineman too ) gave me some tips on what to expect. I guess I was there 6-8 months, and I decided to screw with one of the oldtimers and I put about 6 halfhitches around the bit before I sent it up to him. He never said a word, just slid all 6 of em back to the shank, drilled the hole by hand ,let loose of the sawdust pump and sent it back down. Niether one of us mentioned it to each other, but he was grinning when he came down. I tried to give my groundmen some sh-- to, but we still helped them learn. Made a lot of days for good memories now that I have been retired for 13 yrs. Be safe and watch out for your buddy.

Old Line Dog
11-04-2012, 09:28 PM
Bren, you just gave another outstanding reason to treat others with respect. . . . If ya don't you may get your arse handed to you.:cool:

Naw.

That was back in the day...Bren was 19 back then. That WAS how things were done "back in the day" though. Not nowdays.

Shotokan huh. Cool.

I use to be a 3rd degree Blackbelt in Shotokan.
Ya still Practice Bren?

"Blackbelt", as I'm sure you know...is just a rank type thing, that's only relevant if you are an actual practionisor of the "Arts".
I "learned" when I got my blackbelt, that becoming a blackbelt, was actually the "start" of learning Shotokan Karate.

Ya still do katas Bren?

http://www.google.com/search?q=shotokan+katas&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=LSKXUJeVBJOm9gTHsIDQBg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1093&bih=477

My Sensi told me Years ago, when I asked him for advice in a Full contact tournament.....
"Mmmm...don't get hit".....:)

bren guzzi
11-05-2012, 01:57 PM
I don't do as much as I'd like...

My brother has two schools in Dublin.. I help them out at weekends when I'm home..

He has a lovely school for kids beside where I live.. Trouble is.. Time ... Only get home every second weekend. .. He has around 80 young kids... Love to help them out... It's a JOY. .

Old Line Dog
11-05-2012, 10:46 PM
I don't do as much as I'd like...

My brother has two schools in Dublin.. I help them out at weekends when I'm home..

He has a lovely school for kids beside where I live.. Trouble is.. Time ... Only get home every second weekend. .. He has around 80 young kids... Love to help them out... It's a JOY. .

Understand Bren.
Cool on your Brother and you...for teachin the "Art".

Shotokan...

Shootertg
11-30-2012, 09:21 PM
Reading through some of these posts makes me happier to have the lineman that I have to teach me. Been working with him for a month now and I feel like we get along great. He answers any questions that I have and he doesn't get too upset with me on things that I don't really understand. He tells me exactly what he is thinking about what I do right (or wrong) and I feel like I learn regardless what we are doing. If we work on something that I've already learned we spend more time talking about other types of jobs and how we would work them. Ive always been as laid back as I could be so I'm not sure if yelling an cussing would phase me a lot but I'm sure happy I haven't had to find out.

Old Line Dog
11-30-2012, 09:57 PM
Cool post shooter.

Sounds like you're workin for and with a good Lineman. A "month", is not really much time though to actually evaluate eachother. Your attitude certainly sounds Good, and the interaction with your lineman, sure sounds good too. I hope it continues.

I always tried to teach my apps, and answer any question they had as exactly as I could, so they would understand...
anytime they asked anything.


All I ever wanted in my Apps, was serious dudes, that wanted to Learn Linework. When I got em, I taught em.

When I got smart a$$ punks...they weren't with me very long.